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Varner ruling.

 deadsolid...shank ·  
deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank  14805WRX Points: 729ClubWRX Posts: 14,805
Joined:  in Rules of Golf and Etiquette #1
This one is not good. Who gave him the advice?
Posted:
Titleist 910 8.5
Titleist 910 15*
Titleist 910H 17*
2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
SC GoLo
Vokey SM5 52,58,62
«13456715
15

Comments

  • DrudershDrudersh  2970WRX Points: 238ClubWRX Posts: 2,970
    Joined:  #2
    ......... go onnnnn............
    Posted:
    Ping G 10.5 Tour 65s
    Ping G 14.5 Tour 80x
    Titleist 716 T-MB 3 Iron AD DI 95x
    Ping Anser Forged Project X 6.0
    Ping Glide 50*SS, 54*SS, 58*SS Project X 6.0
    Odyssey Versa 2-Ball
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank  14805WRX Points: 729ClubWRX Posts: 14,805
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    Driver cracked on the range. Checked with officials how to proceed. Started with 13 clubs, someone brought out a new head, they attached head and shaft, he played a shot and incurred a two stroke penalty. Club can’t be assembled with components carried on the course. Apparently if they had put it together in the locker room he would have been ok.



    Rule has apparently been there for a long time, my question is, he asked how to properly proceed. Sounds like what he got told omitted some important information.
    Posted:
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • CwebbCwebb  6005WRX Points: 306Members Posts: 6,005
    Joined:  #4
    This rule needs changing
    Posted:
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank  14805WRX Points: 729ClubWRX Posts: 14,805
    Joined:  #5
    I don’t know who the official was who was in the booth, but Faldo was kind of giving him the business. Really hinting at the adsurdity. Gannon was trying to help the official by trying to explain the rational behind the rule.



    But they never asked why someone didn’t tell him this part, when he asked how to proceed so he wouldn’t break any rules.
    Posted:
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to Canada 13043WRX Points: 1,974Members Posts: 13,043
    Joined:  #6
    This is crazy and an oversight if what I am reading above is accurate



    A player can use a wrench re-secure a hosel adapter or weights during the round ON THE COURSE .... but not if it is a replacement head ?????????
    Posted:

    Ping G400 LST 11* Oban Revenge 65 06
    Callaway Xhot 3 Deep 14.5* Fubuki 73x
    Callaway GBB 5w 17* Aldila NVS 85x 
    Callaway Apex v1 3h 20* AD DI 95x
    Cally Apex v1 5h 26* Apache MFS 85x
    Mizuno 919T 6-G UST Recoil 95 f4 
    Vokey sm2 54*m & 59*m TVD 
    Callaway PM 64* UST 110 f4
    Yes Donna

    '19 Index 0.9 ~ 3.7
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OH 3022WRX Points: 133Members Posts: 3,022
    Joined:  #7
    This is the interpretation I found:



    4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

    Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.



    For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player’s locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer’s truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be “carried by anyone for the player during the round ” and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else.
    Posted:
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5*
    On -, @44.5"

    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 5W = 19*

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 7W = 23*

    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled
    On -, @33.5"

    Maxfli SoftFli
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  • SawgrassSawgrass  15473WRX Points: 840Members Posts: 15,473
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    Was the player told by an official that he could do this, then penalized for doing so?
    Posted:
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OH 3022WRX Points: 133Members Posts: 3,022
    Joined:  #9
    Seems like maybe a misunderstanding of the advice given by officials? It's possible officials told him it was ok for his people to bring him an assembled club, but did not specify it had to be assembled before the parts arrived on course? Built then sent out to him is different than sent out to him then built.



    https://www.si.com/g...rs-championship



    _____



    "Before the round started, Varner noticed a crack in his driver. He alerted rules officials and told them he intended to start the round with 13 clubs, with a plan to have a driver built and sent out to him while he was on the course. It is legal to start a round with 13 clubs and add one later.



    His agent brought the clubhead to the course and a walking scorer brought the shaft. The two parts were then attached and Varner hit a shot with the newly assembled driver. He was then assessed a two-stroke penalty because a player is not allowed to use a club whose parts were assembled on the golf course by anyone, even if it's not the player.
    Posted:
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5*
    On -, @44.5"

    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 5W = 19*

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 7W = 23*

    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled
    On -, @33.5"

    Maxfli SoftFli
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to Canada 13043WRX Points: 1,974Members Posts: 13,043
    Joined:  #10
    in today's day and age ... either the shaft will fail (part S) or the head (part H)



    The odds are you will want to replace one of these H or S (that you are 100% likely still carrying on the course) with a replacement piece for the failed piece



    Needs a rule change ASAP
    Posted:

    Ping G400 LST 11* Oban Revenge 65 06
    Callaway Xhot 3 Deep 14.5* Fubuki 73x
    Callaway GBB 5w 17* Aldila NVS 85x 
    Callaway Apex v1 3h 20* AD DI 95x
    Cally Apex v1 5h 26* Apache MFS 85x
    Mizuno 919T 6-G UST Recoil 95 f4 
    Vokey sm2 54*m & 59*m TVD 
    Callaway PM 64* UST 110 f4
    Yes Donna

    '19 Index 0.9 ~ 3.7
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to Canada 13043WRX Points: 1,974Members Posts: 13,043
    Joined:  #11
    rawdog wrote:


    Seems like maybe a misunderstanding of the advice given by officials? It's possible officials told him it was ok for his people to bring him an assembled club, but did not specify it had to be assembled before the parts arrived on course? Built then sent out to him is different than sent out to him then built.



    https://www.si.com/g...rs-championship



    _____



    "Before the round started, Varner noticed a crack in his driver. He alerted rules officials and told them he intended to start the round with 13 clubs, with a plan to have a driver built and sent out to him while he was on the course. It is legal to start a round with 13 clubs and add one later.



    His agent brought the clubhead to the course and a walking scorer brought the shaft. The two parts were then attached and Varner hit a shot with the newly assembled driver. He was then assessed a two-stroke penalty because a player is not allowed to use a club whose parts were assembled on the golf course by anyone, even if it's not the player.




    Who dreams this stuff up? How is it an advantage regardless of who and where it is assembled?

    Are they worried fake failures will happen and new drivers more suitable for the back 9 will be dropped into play?
    Posted:

    Ping G400 LST 11* Oban Revenge 65 06
    Callaway Xhot 3 Deep 14.5* Fubuki 73x
    Callaway GBB 5w 17* Aldila NVS 85x 
    Callaway Apex v1 3h 20* AD DI 95x
    Cally Apex v1 5h 26* Apache MFS 85x
    Mizuno 919T 6-G UST Recoil 95 f4 
    Vokey sm2 54*m & 59*m TVD 
    Callaway PM 64* UST 110 f4
    Yes Donna

    '19 Index 0.9 ~ 3.7
  • jmkenn0jmkenn0  762WRX Points: 139Members Posts: 762
    Joined:  #12
    They didn't explain it very well but it sounds like they told him he could start with 13 and bring out another club - I don't think he explained to them he was planning on keeping the shaft and replacing the head (or maybe they were just carrying the shaft?) hopefully if he had told them the plan they would have told him to give the shaft to someone to assemble elsewhere.



    The rules guy was trying to say this was to avoid having people abuse the rule by playing with 13 figure out what their miss was then assemble a 14 th to adjust.
    Posted:
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  • HaleboppHalebopp  2943WRX Points: 249Members Posts: 2,943
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    Cwebb wrote:


    This rule needs changing




    I don't think allowing players to carry 40 shafts and 60 club heads for the round and then letting them assemble clubs one by one up to 14 clubs during the play of the round based on their needs or swing that day is a good idea.



    But if an official approved what happened, it should not be a penalty.
    Posted:
    Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
    D: ST180 / 3W: GT 180 / 21º, MP-H5 / 4-PW: MP-4 / 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: Hi-Toe / Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4
    WITB Link
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean  4478WRX Points: 366Members Posts: 4,478
    Joined:  edited Mar 14, 2019 4:25pm #14
    Halebopp wrote:

    Cwebb wrote:


    This rule needs changing




    I don't think allowing players to carry 40 shafts and 60 club heads for the round and then letting them assemble clubs one by one up to 14 clubs during the play of the round based on their needs or swing that day is a good idea.



    But if an official approved what happened, it should not be a penalty.




    This is not of 40 shafts and 60 heads but 1 shaft and 1 head. The issue is that there must be a line drawn somewhere and this is where it has been drawn.



    EDIT: I don't believe the referee knew what the player was about to do, otherwise he would have advised him, I am sure of that.
    Posted:
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OH 3022WRX Points: 133Members Posts: 3,022
    Joined:  #15
    cardoustie wrote:


    in today's day and age ... either the shaft will fail (part S) or the head (part H)



    The odds are you will want to replace one of these H or S (that you are 100% likely still carrying on the course) with a replacement piece for the failed piece



    Needs a rule change ASAP




    I think the difference is that he wasn't replacing a club, he was adding a club.



    The club was damaged before the round and was not in his bag when he started. I believe there are other rules in place for what's allowed when repairing a club during a round.
    Posted:
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5*
    On -, @44.5"

    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 5W = 19*

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 7W = 23*

    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled
    On -, @33.5"

    Maxfli SoftFli
  • HaleboppHalebopp  2943WRX Points: 249Members Posts: 2,943
    Joined:  #16
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    Halebopp wrote:

    Cwebb wrote:


    This rule needs changing




    I don't think allowing players to carry 40 shafts and 60 club heads for the round and then letting them assemble clubs one by one up to 14 clubs during the play of the round based on their needs or swing that day is a good idea.



    But if an official approved what happened, it should not be a penalty.




    This is not of 40 shafts and 60 heads but 1 shaft and 1 head. The issue is that there must be a line drawn somewhere and this is where it has been drawn.




    Well, that should be obvious, it was simply an exaggeration to deliver a point why it isn't allowed. The line was drawn in the easiest point possible to administer, making such behaviour forbidden altogether. (And to nitpick, it was only one shaft he had in the bag, not the head).



    Certainly an interesting situation but he could've asked for help from rules officials before starting his round, the rules officials should've known the rules and if they didn't, the player shouldn't be penalized for acting in accordance with the directions given by the rules official.
    Posted:
    Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
    D: ST180 / 3W: GT 180 / 21º, MP-H5 / 4-PW: MP-4 / 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: Hi-Toe / Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4
    WITB Link
  • Krt22Krt22 East Bay 8241WRX Points: 2,008Members Posts: 8,241
    Joined:  #17
    Is it a single 2 stroke penalty or a 2 stroke penalty every time he uses the club?
    Posted:
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean  4478WRX Points: 366Members Posts: 4,478
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    You get 2 PS and you have to declare that club out of play. (this from the top of my head)
    Posted:
  • KevCarterKevCarter 1995 MN PGA Wisconsin 12825WRX Points: 369ClubWRX Posts: 12,825
    Joined:  #19
    Penalty in Stroke Play – Two Penalty Strokes, Maximum of Four Strokes: The player gets the general penalty (two penalty strokes) for each hole where a breach happened, with a maximum of four penalty strokes in the round (adding two penalty strokes at each of the first two holes where a breach happened).
    Posted:
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • dlygrissedlygrisse Kansas 13724WRX Points: 1,187Members Posts: 13,724
    Joined:  #20
    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?
    Posted:
    I pick 14 of the following:
    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w 
    Ping G410 5 and 7 wood
    Callaway Apex 23*
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, 58 SS or Vokey M Grind 58
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Jones Utility
    ProV1x-mostly
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean  4478WRX Points: 366Members Posts: 4,478
    Joined:  edited Mar 14, 2019 4:47pm #21
    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.



    EDIT2: This part of the SI article seems to contain more than one incorrect thing:



    'His agent brought the clubhead to the course and a walking scorer brought the shaft. The two parts were then attached and Varner hit a shot with the newly assembled driver. He was then assessed a two-stroke penalty because a player is not allowed to use a club whose parts were assembled on the golf course by anyone, even if it's not the player.'
    Posted:
  • jmkenn0jmkenn0  762WRX Points: 139Members Posts: 762
    Joined:  #22
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.




    But the score keeper holder was carrying the shaft?
    Posted:
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  • KevCarterKevCarter 1995 MN PGA Wisconsin 12825WRX Points: 369ClubWRX Posts: 12,825
    Joined:  edited Mar 14, 2019 4:50pm #23
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.




    Not positive, but I think I read his manager had been carrying the shaft (maybe original) for him.



    Edit:

    jmkenn0 was correct, it was the score sign holder. Bad memory.
    Posted:
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean  4478WRX Points: 366Members Posts: 4,478
    Joined:  #24
    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.
    Posted:
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OH 3022WRX Points: 133Members Posts: 3,022
    Joined:  #25
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.




    From my understanding, he intended to tee off with 13 clubs and add one rather than replacing it.



    But it seems unclear if the shaft from the club that broke pre-round was in his bag or being carried by the standard bearer. But just carrying a shaft would not constitute carrying a club. However, if the shaft was already out on the course, it could not be used in assembly of the new club.



    Hope that provides some help.
    Posted:
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5*
    On -, @44.5"

    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 5W = 19*

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 7W = 23*

    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled
    On -, @33.5"

    Maxfli SoftFli
  • sui generissui generis  4200WRX Points: 534Members Posts: 4,200
    Joined:  #26
    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    I believe that procedure would have been okay.
    Posted:
    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • sui generissui generis  4200WRX Points: 534Members Posts: 4,200
    Joined:  #27
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.




    I think that had the player started the round with 14 clubs, the repair would not have been allowed. Adding a club is permitted, isn't it?
    Posted:
    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
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  • dlygrissedlygrisse Kansas 13724WRX Points: 1,187Members Posts: 13,724
    Joined:  #28
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.




    So they could have grabbed a new driver, but since they used the shaft it's a violation?
    Posted:
    I pick 14 of the following:
    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w 
    Ping G410 5 and 7 wood
    Callaway Apex 23*
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, 58 SS or Vokey M Grind 58
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Jones Utility
    ProV1x-mostly
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • Krt22Krt22 East Bay 8241WRX Points: 2,008Members Posts: 8,241
    Joined:  #29
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.




    The club was never broken in the first place when he actually teed off. (if he handed the shaft off prior to teeing off). Not to mention replacing a broken club is now allowed.
    Posted:
  • Joker91Joker91 Westminster, CO 572WRX Points: 279Members Posts: 572
    Joined:  #30
    Basically, don't assemble clubs on the course. Seems pretty simple and there is nothing wrong with that rule.
    Posted:
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  • HaleboppHalebopp  2943WRX Points: 249Members Posts: 2,943
    Joined:  #31
    rawdog wrote:
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.




    From my understanding, he intended to tee off with 13 clubs and add one rather than replacing it.



    But it seems unclear if the shaft from the club that broke pre-round was in his bag or being carried by the standard bearer. But just carrying a shaft would not constitute carrying a club. However, if the shaft was already out on the course, it could not be used in assembly of the new club.



    Hope that provides some help.


    It doesn't matter who carried the shaft. What matters is someone carried it for him.
    Posted:
    Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
    D: ST180 / 3W: GT 180 / 21º, MP-H5 / 4-PW: MP-4 / 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: Hi-Toe / Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4
    WITB Link
15

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