Varner ruling.

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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Based on all this conversation I think if I ever had a club break when in a competition (no matter when or where it happened) I would just play with 13 until the competition was over. There just isn't any logical way to unravel all the intracacies of who is carrying what, when, or where. I am not sure replacing the club the next day would be safe.


    Well, nowadays you wouldn't be able to replace the club unless someone else (excluding the caddie) or natural forces broke it. You could try and fix it or play with the broken club though.
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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,725 ClubWRX
    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Based on all this conversation I think if I ever had a club break when in a competition (no matter when or where it happened) I would just play with 13 until the competition was over.




    Well, you would have to, replacing a broken club is only allowed if an outside influence broke it...



    EDIT: Sorry, if the competition lasts more than one day you may naturally replace a broken club for the next day.


    You mean if I broke it getting it out of the car or at the range?
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    turtlekc wrote:


    Are you reading the Players Edition, or the Full Rules? I think all your questions are answered in the Full Rules, but the Players Edition May be a little weak in this area.




    I am reading the Official Guide to the Rules of Golf. This book has it all, including Interpretations, which are very helpful.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,195 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Sawgrass wrote:


    Here’s our three step process:



    1) be outraged



    2) demand a change in the rules



    3) find out exactly what happened




    I haven’t heard a lot of outrage. I’ve heard several people saying they would like to know what exactly was asked and if HV was clear in telling the official what he wanted to do.
    Im interested too. But in fairness, after you presented the outline of the issue in post #3, it only took until post #4 for someone to demand a rule change and all the way to post #6 for someone to call the rule “crazy.”
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 6:12pm #66

    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Based on all this conversation I think if I ever had a club break when in a competition (no matter when or where it happened) I would just play with 13 until the competition was over.




    Well, you would have to, replacing a broken club is only allowed if an outside influence broke it...



    EDIT: Sorry, if the competition lasts more than one day you may naturally replace a broken club for the next day.


    You mean if I broke it getting it out of the car or at the range?




    Then you have not started your round, so no. I am referring to a situation during a round where someone falls over your club and breaks the shaft. In such a case you are not to blame so you cannot be 'punished'.
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 14, 2019 6:16pm #67
    Mr. Bean wrote:



    But they still seem almost contradictory to me. You can’t carry the parts with you and put the club together, but you can send someone to pick them up and then you can put them together? “Club parts guy, just a phone call away”.



    I do understand the wording better now, thanks for that Hale. Now the rule itself doesn’t make much sense.




    As already explained this is to avoid the situation that a player has someone on the course carrying dozens of components for him to get a quick remedy. It is also good to remember that Rules are for everyone, not only for those who have a tour truck available.



    The Rule in question makes a lot of sense, you just have to understand the principle behind it.






    If we have to go to these lengths to prevent extreme scenarios and possibilities, wouldn’t it be more prudent just to not allow any club assembly on the course? I do understand they are trying to account for any and all future possibilities. And someone would have an equipment man following him. Just eliminate any chance of that before it happens.
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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,725 ClubWRX
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Based on all this conversation I think if I ever had a club break when in a competition (no matter when or where it happened) I would just play with 13 until the competition was over.




    Well, you would have to, replacing a broken club is only allowed if an outside influence broke it...



    EDIT: Sorry, if the competition lasts more than one day you may naturally replace a broken club for the next day.


    You mean if I broke it getting it out of the car or at the range?




    Then you have not started your round, so no. I am referring to a situation during a round where someone falls over your club and breaks the shaft. In such a case you are not to blame so you cannot be 'punished'.


    Like I said, I am not sure when I would be able to replace the club.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 14, 2019 6:19pm #69

    Mr. Bean wrote:


    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Based on all this conversation I think if I ever had a club break when in a competition (no matter when or where it happened) I would just play with 13 until the competition was over.




    Well, you would have to, replacing a broken club is only allowed if an outside influence broke it...



    EDIT: Sorry, if the competition lasts more than one day you may naturally replace a broken club for the next day.


    You mean if I broke it getting it out of the car or at the range?




    Then you have not started your round, so no. I am referring to a situation during a round where someone falls over your club and breaks the shaft. In such a case you are not to blame so you cannot be 'punished'.


    Like I said, I am not sure when I would be able to replace the club.




    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Like I said, a lot of smart people aren’t sure.
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:


    Are you reading the Players Edition, or the Full Rules? I think all your questions are answered in the Full Rules, but the Players Edition May be a little weak in this area.




    I am reading the Official Guide to the Rules of Golf. This book has it all, including Interpretations, which are very helpful.




    Whoops, sorry my friend, I meant that question for the gentleman who was struggling. I somehow fat fingered it! 😃
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    Sawgrass wrote:


    Sawgrass wrote:


    Here’s our three step process:



    1) be outraged



    2) demand a change in the rules



    3) find out exactly what happened




    I haven’t heard a lot of outrage. I’ve heard several people saying they would like to know what exactly was asked and if HV was clear in telling the official what he wanted to do.
    Im interested too. But in fairness, after you presented the outline of the issue in post #3, it only took until post #4 for someone to demand a rule change and all the way to post #6 for someone to call the rule “crazy.”




    Good point Sawgrass. I think Rawdog brought a level of rationality to it, at least for me. To start wondering what actually transpired. But it really didn’t help with the official they interviewed in the booth. I think he was really rattled. Without Gannon i wouldn’t have initially had any idea behind the rule.
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Mr. Bean wrote:


    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Based on all this conversation I think if I ever had a club break when in a competition (no matter when or where it happened) I would just play with 13 until the competition was over.




    Well, you would have to, replacing a broken club is only allowed if an outside influence broke it...



    EDIT: Sorry, if the competition lasts more than one day you may naturally replace a broken club for the next day.


    You mean if I broke it getting it out of the car or at the range?




    Then you have not started your round, so no. I am referring to a situation during a round where someone falls over your club and breaks the shaft. In such a case you are not to blame so you cannot be 'punished'.


    Like I said, I am not sure when I would be able to replace the club.




    I cannot see what is unclear in that. It is all explained in Rule 4.1. Maybe you should read it.
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday’s opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    “We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one,” PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    “When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    “The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty.”



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    “Harold was trying not to do anything wrong,” Russell said.



    “I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule.”
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    Did Varner even know that the scorer had picked up the shaft?
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX


    Did Varner even know that the scorer had picked up the shaft?




    “The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty.”
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX


    Did Varner even know that the scorer had picked up the shaft?




    “I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule.”
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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    Is it just me or is the VP of rules misinterpreting the rules? From what's been shared, it wasn't that he assembled it on the course. It was that it was carried on his behalf and then assembled. Had his agent picked up the head, picked up the shaft from the tee before he tee'd off, and then assembled it on the course it would have been OK?



    What a cluster
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,634 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I’m sure nobody is thinking Harold tried to skate anything on purpose. I can tell you for fact that he’s the straightest nicest guy you’ll meet.



    Don’t know what was said between he and the official. I’m sure the grape vine around here will know after the event and he gets back home. I’m sure just a misunderstanding on his AND the officials part. Had to be.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    turtlekc wrote:



    Did Varner even know that the scorer had picked up the shaft?




    “The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty.”




    No, I realize that turtle, what I’m wondering is, did the agent get out there with the club and the scorer give him the shaft and then he assembled them, or give both parts to Varner? Did Varner have any knowledge that the shaft was with them all along? Varner could well have thought the agent brought both pieces.



    By the rule, yes I understand it.
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 6:48pm #80
    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    There's a lot of bull**it also in that story!!!



    It is NOT forbidden to assemble a club on the course! Geezzz...
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX


    I’m sure nobody is thinking Harold tried to skate anything on purpose. I can tell you for fact that he’s the straightest nicest guy you’ll meet.



    Don’t know what was said between he and the official. I’m sure the grape vine around here will know after the event and he gets back home. I’m sure just a misunderstanding on his AND the officials part. Had to be.
    .



    It really sounds like a case of the scorer, trying to be helpful, caused the problem.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    There's a lot of bull**it also in that story!!!



    It is NOT forbidden to assemble a club on the course! Geezzz...




    Does it say that anywhere in there?
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    There's a lot of bull**it also in that story!!!



    It is NOT forbidden to assemble a club on the course! Geezzz...




    I think Mr. Russel misspoke about the assembly on the course, but IMO that doesn’t change the ruling. Growing pangs...
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Mr. Bean wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    There's a lot of bull**it also in that story!!!



    It is NOT forbidden to assemble a club on the course! Geezzz...




    Does it say that anywhere in there?




    Yes. Try reading it.
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX

    turtlekc wrote:



    Did Varner even know that the scorer had picked up the shaft?




    “The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty.”




    No, I realize that turtle, what I’m wondering is, did the agent get out there with the club and the scorer give him the shaft and then he assembled them, or give both parts to Varner? Did Varner have any knowledge that the shaft was with them all along? Varner could well have thought the agent brought both pieces.



    By the rule, yes I understand it.




    Did you read the quotes I posted for you?



    “They were aware...”
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    Mr. Bean wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    There's a lot of bull**it also in that story!!!



    It is NOT forbidden to assemble a club on the course! Geezzz...




    Does it say that anywhere in there?




    Yes. Try reading it.




    Maybe you be able to read a little context into it before telling me to read it. It says it was assembled on the course in violation of the rule, not that it is forbidden to assemble on the course. He says they don’t want clubs assembled on the course, never says it is forbidden.
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    turtlekc wrote:

    Mr. Bean wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    There's a lot of bull**it also in that story!!!



    It is NOT forbidden to assemble a club on the course! Geezzz...




    I think Mr. Russel misspoke about the assembly on the course, but IMO that doesn’t change the ruling. Growing pangs...




    ...or perhaps was mis-quoted? Fake news? 😃
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 14, 2019 7:00pm #88
    turtlekc wrote:


    turtlekc wrote:



    Did Varner even know that the scorer had picked up the shaft?




    “The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty.”




    No, I realize that turtle, what I’m wondering is, did the agent get out there with the club and the scorer give him the shaft and then he assembled them, or give both parts to Varner? Did Varner have any knowledge that the shaft was with them all along? Varner could well have thought the agent brought both pieces.



    By the rule, yes I understand it.




    Did you read the quotes I posted for you?



    “They were aware...”




    They were aware of the rule, yes I saw that. Did you read what I asked? Did Varner know that the shaft was with them the entire time? Or did he think the agent brought it with him, like was originally planned.



    I’m not quibbling about the enforcement of the rule, that’s now pretty clear cut, I’m just wondering about the circumstances that led up to it.
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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭



    Krt22 wrote:
    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    Is it just me or is the VP of rules misinterpreting the rules? From what's been shared, it wasn't that he assembled it on the course. It was that it was carried on his behalf and then assembled. Had his agent picked up the head, picked up the shaft from the tee before he tee'd off, and then assembled it on the course it would have been OK?



    What a cluster




    That guy is all over the place claiming it was a breach to assemble it on the course and then basically correcting himself. The player must've also made a stroke with the club to incur the penalty. Simply toying around with the parts isn't a violation, like the person claims.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,772 ClubWRX
    Halebopp wrote:





    Krt22 wrote:
    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    Is it just me or is the VP of rules misinterpreting the rules? From what's been shared, it wasn't that he assembled it on the course. It was that it was carried on his behalf and then assembled. Had his agent picked up the head, picked up the shaft from the tee before he tee'd off, and then assembled it on the course it would have been OK?



    What a cluster




    That guy is all over the place claiming it was a breach to assemble it on the course and then basically correcting himself. The player must've also made a stroke with the club to incur the penalty. Simply toying around with the parts isn't a violation, like the person claims.




    Is this Russel the same guy who they interviewed in the booth?
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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,725 ClubWRX
    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.
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