Varner ruling.

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  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,504 ✭✭

    Mr. Bean wrote:


    Mr. Bean wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:


    PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. – Harold Varner III was the victim of an unusual rules breach during Thursday's opening round of THE PLAYERS Championship.



    Varner III was assessed a two-shot penalty after his round – turning an even-par 72 into a 2-over 74 – for using a club he had assembled on course after his round begun.



    The 28-year-old came into his fourth PLAYERS Championship with confidence after a T7 last season at TPC Sawgrass but damaged his driver in his opening round warmup.



    Having alerted officials he intended to have it replaced, Varner began his round with just 13 clubs while his agent went to get a replacement.



    This is allowed under Rule 4.1b.



    Varner wanted to keep the original shaft, but under the same rule he is unable to take the shaft with him on to the course and have the new club assembled during play.



    Once he became aware of this, he left the shaft on the tee where his agent could retrieve it and assemble the club in the locker room per the rules.



    A walking scorer – hoping to be helpful after seeing the loose piece of equipment – saw the shaft and brought it onto the course for Varner. When the driver head was procured, the club was assembled on course in violation of the rule.



    The rule is in place essentially to stop players having clubs built to changing conditions on the course.



    Rules officials had no choice but to assess the two-stroke penalty to Varner on the hole he assembled the club, which was the par-5 11th, his second hole of the day.



    "We were under the impression he was going to take the driver back to the locker room and his agent was going to come back with another one," PGA TOUR Vice President of Rules and Competition Mark Russell explained.



    "When they brought the head out and assembled it out there, it broke Rule 4. Can't do that. They don't want clubs assembled and adjusted on the golf course. So that's the reason for that rule.



    "The rule basically says a player must not build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round. They were aware of that situation, so that's why he received a two-stroke penalty."



    Varner is not accused of deliberately trying to flout the rules; in fact he was in communication with officials throughout but suffered from a misunderstanding.



    "Harold was trying not to do anything wrong," Russell said.



    "I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule."




    There's a lot of bull**it also in that story!!!



    It is NOT forbidden to assemble a club on the course! Geezzz...




    Does it say that anywhere in there?




    Yes. Try reading it.




    Maybe you be able to read a little context into it before telling me to read it. It says it was assembled on the course in violation of the rule, not that it is forbidden to assemble on the course. He says they don’t want clubs assembled on the course, never says it is forbidden.




    This "VP of Rules" is incorrect it seems. Per the rule.



    (4) Restrictions When Adding or Replacing Clubs. When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

    • Unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a),

    • Add or borrow any club from anyone else who is playing on the course (even if the other player is playing in a different group or competition), or

    • Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round



    It wasnt the assembly itself it seems, it was that the scorer picked up the shaft and carried it for Varner during the round..and then that shaft was used to assemble the club. Had the shaft stayed on the tee box and been picked up by his agent with the head and then given to Varner, it seems like it would be OK to assemble then, since the agent was carry the components TO the player and not really FOR the player.



    But that is also a bit ambiguous. If the agent has the head and the shaft..not following the group..finds varner on a tee box, one might argue he was in fact carrying the components FOR the player. Such then, he should have put the shaft into the head in the bathroom and all would have been well, field protected.



    The way it went down, I would bet the official told varner not to carry the shaft onto the course, such that is a breach. He leaves it for his agent, scorer picks it up thinking he's helping. Agent gets to Varner, says where is the shaft, they figures it out, doesnt make the connection that the scorer was actually carrying it FOR the player. Thinks nothing of it, plugs in the shaft, gets penalized.
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭


    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.




    Someone can bring them TO you from off the course. They cannot be carried on the course FOR you during the round. Meaning, you (or someone else) cannot be carrying components around so you can decide exactly what club you want to add during the round.
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,671 ClubWRX
    That is what I was asking, if Varner knew the shaft was being “carried” for him.



    If he did, shame on him because it sounds like he was told how to proceed.



    If he didn’t, and thought the agent brought both pieces, then it appears to be a bad break for him because the agent messed up, and she scorer as well.



    I don’t have any idea on the rule know with all that has been tossed around. But it certainly appears by what Hale quoted was that the fact that she shaft was with him was the crux of the problem.



    If I have everything messed up I’ll quickly offer apologies for letting this get a little heated with Mr Bean. We often don’t see eye to eye, but if I’m wrong I’ll take my lumps.
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,779 ClubWRX


    That is what I was asking, if Varner knew the shaft was being "carried" for him.



    If he did, shame on him because it sounds like he was told how to proceed.



    If he didn't, and thought the agent brought both pieces, then it appears to be a bad break for him because the agent messed up, and she scorer as well.



    I don't have any idea on the rule know with all that has been tossed around. But it certainly appears by what Hale quoted was that the fact that she shaft was with him was the crux of the problem.



    If I have everything messed up I'll quickly offer apologies for letting this get a little heated with Mr Bean. We often don't see eye to eye, but if I'm wrong I'll take my lumps.




    Last time I'll quotte it for you



    “I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule.”
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  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,504 ✭✭
    That statement in itself is not at all clear. 1) He wasnt carrying a golf club. 2) Assembly itself doesn't seem to be explicitly forbidden.
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,779 ClubWRX
    Krt22 wrote:


    That statement in itself is not at all clear. 1) He wasnt carrying a golf club. 2) Assembly itself doesn't seem to be explicitly forbidden.




    We all know he was carrying the shaft...
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,890 ✭✭
    HitEmTrue wrote:



    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.




    Someone can bring them TO you from off the course. They cannot be carried on the course FOR you during the round. Meaning, you (or someone else) cannot be carrying components around so you can decide exactly what club you want to add during the round.




    Can someone explain what the intent of this rule actually is ? Because what you describe sounds like a brain gymnastics event based on semantics .
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,890 ✭✭
    turtlekc wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    That statement in itself is not at all clear. 1) He wasnt carrying a golf club. 2) Assembly itself doesn't seem to be explicitly forbidden.




    We all know he was carrying the shaft...




    Do we ? I thought the scorer picked it up?
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 3,895 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 7:58pm #100

    turtlekc wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    That statement in itself is not at all clear. 1) He wasnt carrying a golf club. 2) Assembly itself doesn't seem to be explicitly forbidden.




    We all know he was carrying the shaft...




    Do we ? I thought the scorer picked it up?




    You are not on the track at all, are you..?



    “I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule.”
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,779 ClubWRX

    turtlekc wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    That statement in itself is not at all clear. 1) He wasnt carrying a golf club. 2) Assembly itself doesn't seem to be explicitly forbidden.




    We all know he was carrying the shaft...




    Do we ? I thought the scorer picked it up?




    He, meaning the walking scorer
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 3,895 ✭✭

    HitEmTrue wrote:



    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.




    Someone can bring them TO you from off the course. They cannot be carried on the course FOR you during the round. Meaning, you (or someone else) cannot be carrying components around so you can decide exactly what club you want to add during the round.




    Can someone explain what the intent of this rule actually is ? Because what you describe sounds like a brain gymnastics event based on semantics .




    That has been explained already, just read the posts.
  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,504 ✭✭
    turtlekc wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    That statement in itself is not at all clear. 1) He wasnt carrying a golf club. 2) Assembly itself doesn't seem to be explicitly forbidden.




    We all know he was carrying the shaft...




    Hard to use this statement as the point of your argument when it's technically wrong.



    Doesnt change the fact the rule is ambiguous, there is absolutely room to interpret it in more than one way.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,890 ✭✭
    Gotcha. The scorer is he.
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  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,504 ✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    HitEmTrue wrote:



    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.




    Someone can bring them TO you from off the course. They cannot be carried on the course FOR you during the round. Meaning, you (or someone else) cannot be carrying components around so you can decide exactly what club you want to add during the round.




    Can someone explain what the intent of this rule actually is ? Because what you describe sounds like a brain gymnastics event based on semantics .




    That has been explained already, just read the posts.




    There has been some folks interpretation of it, reading those posts doesn't really detail the true intent of this part of the rule. It's not at all clear to me, especially in how it pertains to this specific breach.
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,779 ClubWRX
    Krt22 wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    That statement in itself is not at all clear. 1) He wasnt carrying a golf club. 2) Assembly itself doesn't seem to be explicitly forbidden.




    We all know he was carrying the shaft...




    Hard to use this statement as the point of your argument when it's technically wrong.



    Doesnt change the fact the rule is ambiguous, there is absolutely room to interpret it in more than one way.




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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,890 ✭✭
    What does it protect from ? I thought they even allowed you to replace if you have a fit and break one. ( wushu I don’t like ) But you can’t replace one if the shaft was inbounds before it joined the head ? Loll. Come on guys. Captain obvious could do a commercial condemning the sense of this one.
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  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭


    What does it protect from ? I thought they even allowed you to replace if you have a fit and break one. ( wushu I don't like ) But you can't replace one if the shaft was inbounds before it joined the head ? Loll. Come on guys. Captain obvious could do a commercial condemning the sense of this one.




    You cannot replace a club that you break. Under the previous rules, you could replace a club that broke under normal play. Could not replace a club that you broke in a fit-of-anger.
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 8:19pm #109

    HitEmTrue wrote:



    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.




    Someone can bring them TO you from off the course. They cannot be carried on the course FOR you during the round. Meaning, you (or someone else) cannot be carrying components around so you can decide exactly what club you want to add during the round.




    Can someone explain what the intent of this rule actually is ? Because what you describe sounds like a brain gymnastics event based on semantics .




    In bold.



    I'm sure this has been discussed here before...can a player start with 13 clubs, and leave several clubs in the clubhouse? Then based on how things are going, make a call to have someone bring out one of those clubs? < edit > Looks like the answer is "yes." I don't think a player should be able to add clubs.
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,544 ClubWRX
    HitEmTrue wrote:



    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.




    Someone can bring them TO you from off the course. They cannot be carried on the course FOR you during the round. Meaning, you (or someone else) cannot be carrying components around so you can decide exactly what club you want to add during the round.


    In order to bring a club or components to you they must be carried by someone. Hence my confusion. Carry is being defined in a very specific and non-obvious way.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,890 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 8:19pm #111
    HitEmTrue wrote:


    HitEmTrue wrote:



    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.




    Someone can bring them TO you from off the course. They cannot be carried on the course FOR you during the round. Meaning, you (or someone else) cannot be carrying components around so you can decide exactly what club you want to add during the round.




    Can someone explain what the intent of this rule actually is ? Because what you describe sounds like a brain gymnastics event based on semantics .




    In bold.



    I'm sure this has been discussed here before...can a player start with 13 clubs, and leave several clubs in the clubhouse? Then based on how things are going, make a call to have someone bring out one of those clubs?




    Wow. The cheater it would take to think that up. I’d vote to just give that person a blanket party.
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  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭

    HitEmTrue wrote:



    As far as I can tell it all comes down to an interpretation of what 4.1b (4) really means. My interpretation (likely wrong) says you can't replace the club unless you personally go get the replacement club without too much delay. If "anyone" carries the club or club components to you during the "round" it will be a violation.




    Someone can bring them TO you from off the course. They cannot be carried on the course FOR you during the round. Meaning, you (or someone else) cannot be carrying components around so you can decide exactly what club you want to add during the round.


    In order to bring a club or components to you they must be carried by someone. Hence my confusion. Carry is being defined in a very specific and non-obvious way.




    The distinction is that they aren't walking around with them, but bringing them from off the course. I'm sure that a referee would ask where the components came from, and an honest answer would reveal which it was. Brought to the player, or being carried around. This would be a situation where intent would matter...as obviously it could take varying lengths of time for a club (or parts) to be brought to someone.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,890 ✭✭
    So then we get into path walked ?
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,779 ClubWRX
    HitEmTrue wrote:


    I'm sure this has been discussed here before...can a player start with 13 clubs, and leave several clubs in the clubhouse? Then based on how things are going, make a call to have someone bring out one of those clubs? < edit > Looks like the answer is "yes." I don't think a player should be able to add clubs.




    Agree 100% It seems to me it would be more consistent as well, but there may be a good reason we aren't thinking of...
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  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭


    Wow. The cheater it would take to think that up. I'd vote to just give that person a blanket party.




    hehe



    But it isn't cheating to add clubs. And it isn't (apparently) cheating to add a club that comes from a choice of clubs that is sitting off the course. I don't like this, by the way.



    Do you believe it would be cheating to carry three driver heads and an extra shaft, and then assemble it during the round, if this rule DID NOT exist? Assuming you started with less than 14 assembled clubs.



    There is a decision, er, interpretation, that this particular rule dovetails with:




    Clubs Carried for Player Count Towards the 14-Club Limit

    The 14-club limit applies to any clubs being carried by the player, his or her caddie, or any other person he or she asks to carry clubs.



    For example, if a player begins the round with 10 clubs and asks another person to walk along with the group and carry 8 additional clubs from which the player intends to add to his or her bag during the round, the player is considered to have started the roundRound: 18 or fewer holes played in the order set by the Committee. with more than 14 clubs.
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭


    So then we get into path walked ?




    Question from ref: "Why did you receive this club club (or components) from that person?"



    Truthful answer: "Because my driver broke during warmup, so I started with less than 14-clubs. I called him to bring me these items so I could add it to my bag."



    Followup question: "Has he been carrying them around for you, or did he bring it (them) from off the course?"



    And based on the answer it is, or is not a breach of the rules. It isn't that complicated.
  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members Posts: 3,990 ✭✭
    turtlekc wrote:

    HitEmTrue wrote:


    I'm sure this has been discussed here before...can a player start with 13 clubs, and leave several clubs in the clubhouse? Then based on how things are going, make a call to have someone bring out one of those clubs? < edit > Looks like the answer is "yes." I don't think a player should be able to add clubs.




    Agree 100% It seems to me it would be more consistent as well, but there may be a good reason we aren't thinking of...




    Exactly. What's the difference between having 40 different drivers in your locker room and sending someone to get one and assembling the club on the course? For example, you start with 13 clubs and on the 5th tee you wan to a new driver. You've been hooking the ball the first 4 holes so you send your minion to retrieve an open faced driver from your locker room or car. That's legal. But you can't attach a head to a shaft while on the course. That's not legal.
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 8:52pm #118
    LeoLeo99 wrote:

    turtlekc wrote:

    HitEmTrue wrote:


    I'm sure this has been discussed here before...can a player start with 13 clubs, and leave several clubs in the clubhouse? Then based on how things are going, make a call to have someone bring out one of those clubs? < edit > Looks like the answer is "yes." I don't think a player should be able to add clubs.




    Agree 100% It seems to me it would be more consistent as well, but there may be a good reason we aren't thinking of...




    Exactly. What's the difference between having 40 different drivers in your locker room and sending someone to get one and assembling the club on the course? For example, you start with 13 clubs and on the 5th tee you wan to a new driver. You've been hooking the ball the first 4 holes so you send your minion to retrieve an open faced driver from your locker room or car. That's legal. But you can't attach a head to a shaft while on the course. That's not legal.




    It isn't the assembling action that makes it not legal. Someone can't be carrying extra (assembled) clubs for you, either, if it takes you over the limit.



    Therefore, they can't be carrying that parts around, to work around that club limit. I can only assume this is so you can't add that club to your bag QUICKLY. In other words, if the someone was carrying the components, and you get to that par 3 that had you unsure on what club to use, you judge the wind (and you've also heard that folks are coming up short)...then you say to the guy "hey, hand me the 19 degree hybrid head, and the shaft", assemble it quickly, and play the hole.



    If you had a few hybrids in the locker room, you wouldn't be able to walk onto that tee box, judge the situation, and get one brought out to you quick enough.



    I'd still prefer that no clubs could be added.



    < edit >

    Sorry I made so many posts on this topic. It helped be think it through. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • sailfishchrissailfishchris Members Posts: 896 ✭✭
    This just in: The walking scorer is not a Harold Varner fan and was trying to get him DQ'ed!
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,671 ClubWRX
    turtlekc wrote:



    That is what I was asking, if Varner knew the shaft was being "carried" for him.



    If he did, shame on him because it sounds like he was told how to proceed.



    If he didn't, and thought the agent brought both pieces, then it appears to be a bad break for him because the agent messed up, and she scorer as well.



    I don't have any idea on the rule know with all that has been tossed around. But it certainly appears by what Hale quoted was that the fact that she shaft was with him was the crux of the problem.



    If I have everything messed up I'll quickly offer apologies for letting this get a little heated with Mr Bean. We often don't see eye to eye, but if I'm wrong I'll take my lumps.




    Last time I'll quotte it for you



    “I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the [url=&quot;http://i.viglink.com/?key=f563715e3c9dbb67137259dea3ad1a9a&amp;amp;amp;insertId=e77f248198df0091&amp;amp;amp;type=CD&amp;amp;amp;exp=-100:CILITE:8&amp;amp;amp;libId=jt99nnes0100jaw0000DA1e07r8gg&amp;amp;amp;loc=http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1757132-varner-ruling/page__st__60&amp;amp;amp;v=1&amp;amp;amp;iid=e77f248198df0091&amp;amp;amp;opt=true&amp;amp;amp;out=https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=golf+club&amp;amp;amp;reaf=true&amp;amp;amp;ref=http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1757132-varner-ruling/page__st__90__p__18798950&amp;amp;amp;title=Varner ruling. - Rules of Golf and Etiquette - GolfWRX - Page 3&amp;amp;amp;txt=<span>golf </span><span>club</span>&amp;quot;]golf club[/url] and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule.”




    Ok, how about this. If you take the time to read the actual question I asked then you won’t have to quote again. Fair enough?



    Of course he knew, after he was penalized. My question, for the second or third time, is this. When the agent handed him the club and shaft to assemble, did he know BEFORE he put it together that the scorer had carried the shaft. Or was after he assembled and hit it that he found out?



    Again, I’m not arguing the penalty, just wondering if it was a brain **** on his part, or just a mistake that made without knowing? I’m just wondering, that’s all, not bitching. But if you feel the need to quote something again, try and find something that might answer what I’m actually asking.
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,779 ClubWRX

    turtlekc wrote:



    That is what I was asking, if Varner knew the shaft was being "carried" for him.



    If he did, shame on him because it sounds like he was told how to proceed.



    If he didn't, and thought the agent brought both pieces, then it appears to be a bad break for him because the agent messed up, and she scorer as well.



    I don't have any idea on the rule know with all that has been tossed around. But it certainly appears by what Hale quoted was that the fact that she shaft was with him was the crux of the problem.



    If I have everything messed up I'll quickly offer apologies for letting this get a little heated with Mr Bean. We often don't see eye to eye, but if I'm wrong I'll take my lumps.




    Last time I'll quotte it for you



    “I guess they (the scorer) were thinking they were helping out or whatever, but when Harold and his caddie were aware that a walking scorer was carrying the golf club and it was assembled on the golf course, that's when it violated the rule.”




    Ok, how about this. If you take the time to read the actual question I asked then you won’t have to quote again. Fair enough?



    Of course he knew, after he was penalized. My question, for the second or third time, is this. When the agent handed him the club and shaft to assemble, did he know BEFORE he put it together that the scorer had carried the shaft. Or was after he assembled and hit it that he found out?



    Again, I’m not arguing the penalty, just wondering if it was a brain **** on his part, or just a mistake that made without knowing? I’m just wondering, that’s all, not bitching. But if you feel the need to quote something again, try and find something that might answer what I’m actually asking.




    No thank you. I'm done.
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
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