Model Local Rule E-5

If a person clearly hits a ball out of bounds and everyone in the group is in agreement the ball is out of bounds. Does the person have the option of hitting their 4th shot from the fairway no closer to the hole from the point the ball went out of bounds or are they supposed to hit a provisional?

If that Local Rule is in force the player may either invoke that or play a provisional. However, if he playes a provisional he is no longer entitled to invoke the LR.

> @Knockdown said:

> If a person clearly hits a ball out of bounds and everyone in the group is in agreement the ball is out of bounds. Does the person have the option of hitting their 4th shot from the fairway no closer to the hole from the point the ball went out of bounds or are they supposed to hit a provisional?

The short answer is the player may, assuming the Committee has adopted Local Rule E-5, play in accordance with it or the player may play stroke-and-distance. (Since the player has knowledge that the ball is out of bounds, according to your narrative, a provisional ball is not appropriate.)

Sui, what is the penalty if the player playes a provisional knowing the original ball is OB..?

?

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> Sui, what is the penalty if the player playes a provisional knowing the original ball is OB..?

> ?

He can call it anything he wants . . . a provisional or an orange. The outcome is the same, it's a ball played under stroke-and-distance. He had KVC that the first ball was OB.

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > Sui, what is the penalty if the player playes a provisional knowing the original ball is OB..?

> > ?

>

> He can call it anything he wants . . . a provisional or an orange. The outcome is the same, it's a ball played under stroke-and-distance. He had KVC that the first ball was OB.

This.

If the player KNOWS the ball is OB he can take the LR, or hit his 3rd from the tee. No provisional allowed on a ball that is KNOWN to be OB.

Rules do not prohibit playing a provisional for a ball in OB. Only for a ball known to be in penalty area. Of course in this case the result would be same as S&D.

If a player has KVC he can't hit a provisional??? What?? KVC is what again...95% was it? So if I have 95% KVC the ball is in the houses I might as well be 100% because I cannot hit a provisional?

Edited to add...I wanted to hit a provisional but was told I cannot because it is 95% ob and I find it in bounds it's my tough luck?

> @Shilgy said:

> If a player has KVC he can't hit a provisional??? What?? KVC is what again...95% was it? So if I have 95% KVC the ball is in the houses I might as well be 100% because I cannot hit a provisional?

>

> Edited to add...I wanted to hit a provisional but was told I cannot because it is 95% ob and I find it in bounds it's my tough luck?

It was always that way. Nothing changed. If you have KVC it’s OB the ball you hit from the tee is your 3rd shot and your first is out of play.

Provisionals may be hit when your odds of being OB are better than 1/20. 50/50,60/40, 70/30, even 90/10. But once you think that there’s a 19/20 chance, that is 95% of the time, that the ball will be found OB, no provisional.

Augster, where does it say that? Not in 18.3 or it's Interpretations.

> @Shilgy said:

> Augster, where does it say that? Not in 18.3 or it's Interpretations.

Nowhere does it say so.

Personally I always say 'provisional' for a ball I hit after my previous ball seems to be OB. This is 'just in case' method. After all, I can only win that way, never lose.

> @QEight said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > Augster, where does it say that? Not in 18.3 or it's Interpretations.

>

> Nowhere does it say so.

It says so here

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/pages/definitions#definition-K

> @Augster said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > If a player has KVC he can't hit a provisional??? What?? KVC is what again...95% was it? So if I have 95% KVC the ball is in the houses I might as well be 100% because I cannot hit a provisional?

> >

> > Edited to add...I wanted to hit a provisional but was told I cannot because it is 95% ob and I find it in bounds it's my tough luck?

>

> It was always that way. Nothing changed. If you have KVC it’s OB the ball you hit from the tee is your 3rd shot and your first is out of play.

>

> Provisionals may be hit when your odds of being OB are better than 1/20. 50/50,60/40, 70/30, even 90/10. But once you think that there’s a 19/20 chance, that is 95% of the time, that the ball will be found OB, no provisional.

>

>

With respect, this is a misunderstanding of when you can play a provisional ball. KVC has no relevance here. If my ball may be 96-99 per cent likely to be OOB I can play a provisional ball. Anything less than 100 per cent certainty that a ball is OOB and you are okay to announce and play a provisional. KVC only applies in very specifically defined situations, and this is not one of them.

> @QEight said:

> Rules do not prohibit playing a provisional for a ball in OB. Only for a ball known to be in penalty area. Of course in this case the result would be same as S&D.

You have it backwards.

If a ball is "known" to be OB. You can not play a provisional. Here is the rule for when you know your ball is OB or lost:

**_b. What to Do When Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

If a ball is lost or out of bounds, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6)._**

If you "know" that your ball is in a penalty area, you can not play a provisional:

**_18 3 a

...But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1)._**

This subject has gone completely daft and I’ll be checking out shortly. How about an example.

I hit my drive OB. I see it lying in someone’s yard well past the OB markers. I then announce a “provisional” and hit that one to the same place, well OB and I can see it. I then announce another “provisional” and finally put one in play.

I get it that either way I’m lying 5.

Because my first two balls were KNOWN to be OB, in the old rules, the 2nd and 3rd balls could not be provisional balls. Has that changed? I don’t know I guess. It’s semantics, it seems, as I’ll be lying 5 either way.

You folks are correct that KVC doesn’t apply to 18.3 I think. Only KNOWN changes the ball from a provisional to a ball in play.

18.3 still says “might be OB”. That is not KVC. “Might” covers all situational percentages except KNOWN.

I still stand by that if you KNOW your ball is OB, as said above, you can call the next ball a provisional, or a pumpkin, or an airplane. It’s still going to be your ball in play. It is not being played “provisionally” as per the rules.

> @szaino said:

> > @QEight said:

> > Rules do not prohibit playing a provisional for a ball in OB. Only for a ball known to be in penalty area. Of course in this case the result would be same as S&D.

>

> You have it backwards.

>

> If a ball is "known" to be OB. You can not play a provisional. Here is the rule for when you know your ball is OB or lost:

> **_b. What to Do When Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

> If a ball is lost or out of bounds, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6)._**

>

> If you "know" that your ball is in a penalty area, you can not play a provisional:

> **_18 3 a

> ...But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1)._**

What you are quoting is the result of final determination (knowing) that the ball is lost. It does not preclude/prevent the person from hitting a provisional on the tee.

The idea that someone could declare and hit a provisional, proceeds forward to discover that the original ball somehow bounced back inbounds, and then must be FORCED to play the provisional (because it allegedly was not a provisional) is off base to me. No one has shown a rule or decision that supports that idea, either.

This would mean that from a scoring standpoint, playing a a provisional carries a risk. That would defeat the entire time saving purpose behind the rule.

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @szaino said:

> > > @QEight said:

> > > Rules do not prohibit playing a provisional for a ball in OB. Only for a ball known to be in penalty area. Of course in this case the result would be same as S&D.

> >

> > You have it backwards.

> >

> > If a ball is "known" to be OB. You can not play a provisional. Here is the rule for when you know your ball is OB or lost:

> > **_b. What to Do When Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

> > If a ball is lost or out of bounds, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6)._**

> >

> > If you "know" that your ball is in a penalty area, you can not play a provisional:

> > **_18 3 a

> > ...But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1)._**

>

> What you are quoting is the result of final determination (knowing) that the ball is lost. It does not preclude/prevent the person from hitting a provisional on the tee.

>

> The idea that someone could declare and hit a provisional, proceeds forward to discover that the original ball somehow bounced back inbounds, and then must be FORCED to play the provisional (because it allegedly was not a provisional) is off base to me. No one has shown a rule or decision that supports that idea, either.

>

> This would mean that from a scoring standpoint, playing a a provisional carries a risk. That would defeat the entire time saving purpose behind the rule.

I agree. I would prefer the rules to handle similar cases same way. In this case you can hit a provisional, why would you have to decide 200 yards away where the ball lies? When you arrive on spot you establish the situation: oh, the ball is OB -> the provisional is now S&D. Oh the ball is inbounds -> the provisional is discarded. Why create another "if-then-else" statement in the first part of the rule, especially if it can cause a situation @HitEmTrue described above.

IMO most of this discussion is pure semantics. As there is no penalty for declaring a provisional ball when it is not allowed there is no reason whatsoever to disallow a player doing so. As I wrote earlier I tend to declare a ball a provisional even though I am 100% sure my OP went OB. The point is that I could be wrong and the OP could still be in bounds.

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> IMO most of this discussion is pure semantics. As there is no penalty for declaring a provisional ball when it is not allowed there is no reason whatsoever to disallow a player doing so. As I wrote earlier I tend to declare a ball a provisional even though I am 100% sure my OP went OB. The point is that I could be wrong and the OP could still be in bounds.

Indeed, you may call that ball anything you like!

I recall once saying to my opponent, "This one is not a provisional ball," as I teed up a new Top-Flite after having topped my first into the spinach just off the front of the tee.

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > IMO most of this discussion is pure semantics. As there is no penalty for declaring a provisional ball when it is not allowed there is no reason whatsoever to disallow a player doing so. As I wrote earlier I tend to declare a ball a provisional even though I am 100% sure my OP went OB. The point is that I could be wrong and the OP could still be in bounds.

>

> Indeed, you may call that ball anything you like!

>

> I recall once saying to my opponent, "This one is not a provisional ball," as I teed up a new Top-Flite after having topped my first into the spinach just off the front of the tee.

You can also claim to be hitting a provisional ball without it becoming one if there's no chance the ball is lost outside of a penalty area or out of bounds.

> @Augster said:

> This subject has gone completely daft and I’ll be checking out shortly. How about an example.

>

> I hit my drive OB. I see it lying in someone’s yard well past the OB markers. I then announce a “provisional” and hit that one to the same place, well OB and I can see it. I then announce another “provisional” and finally put one in play.

>

> I get it that either way I’m lying 5.

>

> Because my first two balls were KNOWN to be OB, in the old rules, the 2nd and 3rd balls could not be provisional balls. Has that changed? I don’t know I guess. It’s semantics, it seems, as I’ll be lying 5 either way.

>

> You folks are correct that KVC doesn’t apply to 18.3 I think. Only KNOWN changes the ball from a provisional to a ball in play.

>

> 18.3 still says “might be OB”. That is not KVC. “Might” covers all situational percentages except KNOWN.

>

> I still stand by that if you KNOW your ball is OB, as said above, you can call the next ball a provisional, or a pumpkin, or an airplane. It’s still going to be your ball in play. It is not being played “provisionally” as per the rules.

Yes, you are correct. Once Sui threw KVC into the discussion the thread went in another direction. If you SEE the ball land AND STAY ob you are not hitting a provisional. That I think we would all agree with. If you see your ball head out of bounds and have just KVC that it stayed out of bounds you are allowed to hit a provisional.

> @Newby said:

> > @QEight said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > Augster, where does it say that? Not in 18.3 or it's Interpretations.

> >

> > Nowhere does it say so.

>

> It says so here

> https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/pages/definitions#definition-K

I must be going blind. Where does that refer to not being allowed to hit a provisional?

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Augster said:

> > This subject has gone completely daft and I’ll be checking out shortly. How about an example.

> >

> > I hit my drive OB. I see it lying in someone’s yard well past the OB markers. I then announce a “provisional” and hit that one to the same place, well OB and I can see it. I then announce another “provisional” and finally put one in play.

> >

> > I get it that either way I’m lying 5.

> >

> > Because my first two balls were KNOWN to be OB, in the old rules, the 2nd and 3rd balls could not be provisional balls. Has that changed? I don’t know I guess. It’s semantics, it seems, as I’ll be lying 5 either way.

> >

> > You folks are correct that KVC doesn’t apply to 18.3 I think. Only KNOWN changes the ball from a provisional to a ball in play.

> >

> > 18.3 still says “might be OB”. That is not KVC. “Might” covers all situational percentages except KNOWN.

> >

> > I still stand by that if you KNOW your ball is OB, as said above, you can call the next ball a provisional, or a pumpkin, or an airplane. It’s still going to be your ball in play. It is not being played “provisionally” as per the rules.

>

> Yes, you are correct. Once Sui threw KVC into the discussion the thread went in another direction. If you SEE the ball land AND STAY ob you are not hitting a provisional. That I think we would all agree with. If you see your ball head out of bounds and have just KVC that it stayed out of bounds you are allowed to hit a provisional.

The thread went the other direction when @Augster brought up KVC, and also said: "Provisionals may be hit when your odds of being OB are better than 1/20. 50/50,60/40, 70/30, even 90/10. But once you think that there’s a 19/20 chance, that is 95% of the time, that the ball will be found OB, no provisional."

I do not believe that what he said is true. If there is ANY chance that the ball is not OB, then you may hit a provisional.

> @HitEmTrue said:

> I do not believe that what he said is true. If there is ANY chance that the ball is not OB, then you may hit a provisional.

And even if the the ball is known to be OB, saying "provisional" is not "harmful" for the player. As Mr Bean said, in this case it is sort of semantics.

> @QEight said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > I do not believe that what he said is true. If there is ANY chance that the ball is not OB, then you may hit a provisional.

> And even if the the ball is known to be OB, saying "provisional" is not "harmful" for the player. As Mr Bean said, in this case it is sort of semantics.

>

I have always said that the rules are too complicated. And, I am not so sure this can't be "harmful".

There is a "line in the sand" when it comes to provisional balls. If you "know" your ball is OB, you can not play a provisional.

If you do declare and then play a provisional ball when you are not allowed, it would be my guess that the "provisional" ball has no effect would have to be abandoned. And, you would then have to replay the shot (and not call it a provisional).

I did a quick read of the rules and interpretations for provisional balls and couldn't find this specific example. The way rules are written- There are the rules, then there are the exceptions and interpretations. This rule is pretty black and white and I couldn't find any exceptions.

> @szaino said:

> > @QEight said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > I do not believe that what he said is true. If there is ANY chance that the ball is not OB, then you may hit a provisional.

> > And even if the the ball is known to be OB, saying "provisional" is not "harmful" for the player. As Mr Bean said, in this case it is sort of semantics.

> >

> I have always said that the rules are too complicated. And, I am not so sure this can't be "harmful".

>

> There is a "line in the sand" when it comes to provisional balls. If you "know" your ball is OB, you can not play a provisional.

> If you do declare and then play a provisional ball when you are not allowed, it would be my guess that the "provisional" ball has no effect would have to be abandoned. And, you would then have to replay the shot (and not call it a provisional).

>

> I did a quick read of the rules and interpretations for provisional balls and couldn't find this specific example. The way rules are written- There are the rules, then there are the exceptions and interpretations. This rule is pretty black and white and I couldn't find any exceptions.

>

>

Sorry, but you have got it wrong.

There is nothing in the Rules saying that announcing a provisional ball when not allowed would result in a penalty, let alone cancelling the stroke. If a player is not entitled to play a provisional ball that ball becomes the ball in play with S&D penalty and that is it. Period.

I made the same mistake (as Shilgy has pointed out). The rule doesn't actually say _ 'If you "know" your ball is OB, you can not play a provisional.' _It only says _'If it might be OB you may play a provisional'_

The second ball is simply not a provisional but is the ball in play under S&D. (See old D 27-2a/3. I know it may be dangerous to rely on the past but it would seem to the best guide we have.)

> @QEight said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > I do not believe that what he said is true. If there is ANY chance that the ball is not OB, then you may hit a provisional.

> And even if the the ball is known to be OB, saying "provisional" is not "harmful" for the player. As Mr Bean said, in this case it is sort of semantics.

>

Yes...of course.

But Augster is saying that if there is 95-percent chance that the ball is lost, and you announce and play a provisional...you are subject to stroke and distance even if you find the original ball in play.

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @QEight said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > I do not believe that what he said is true. If there is ANY chance that the ball is not OB, then you may hit a provisional.

> > And even if the the ball is known to be OB, saying "provisional" is not "harmful" for the player. As Mr Bean said, in this case it is sort of semantics.

> >

>

> Yes...of course.

>

> But Augster is saying that if there is 95-percent chance that the ball is lost, and you announce and play a provisional...you are subject to stroke and distance even if you find the original ball in play.

>

And it appears he is incorrect.