Expanded Penalty areas

The courses up here in NY are just starting to come to life and mine is starting to consider how much Red Paint we want to buy or whether Red Stakes will be popping up everywhere.

Are you guys south of us seeing a lot of areas being marked as Penalty Area on your courses? What are your thoughts?

> @4Par said:

> The courses up here in NY are just starting to come to life and mine is starting to consider how much Red Paint we want to buy or whether Red Stakes will be popping up everywhere.

>

> Are you guys south of us seeing a lot of areas being marked as Penalty Area on your courses? What are your thoughts?

I mark my course (with the blessing of the Director of Golf).

The layout lends itself to 1) no more yellow stakes, only red and 2) a couple of new red staked areas. We adopted E-5, the Local Rule for an alternative to stroke-and-distance for lost or out of bounds, and found that the layout of two holes suggested a penalty area behind two greens would be appropriate. So far, so good, three months into the new year. The adoption of Local Rule E-5 also allowed us to pull up dozens of white stakes which lined wooded areas.

We aren't adding any new penalty areas at my club this year. We might expand a couple of areas slightly to include hay areas right next to them.

One of the big problems with the introduction of new penalty areas is that you can't take a drop for an unplayable lie within the PA. That might mean walking back 150 yards to where the ball entered the PA.

Here's a good list of the important things to consider when thinking about adding or expanding penalty areas: https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/section-2#2c_1

No I've only seen the LR taken up, not really any new red at the three courses I've played in the midwest so far.

> @Halebopp said:

> We aren't adding any new penalty areas at my club this year. We might expand a couple of areas slightly to include hay areas right next to them.

>

> One of the big problems with the introduction of new penalty areas is that you can't take a drop for an unplayable lie within the PA. That might mean walking back 150 yards to where the ball entered the PA.

>

> Here's a good list of the important things to consider when thinking about adding or expanding penalty areas: https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/section-2#2c_1

Great information, thank you for posting!

I was in a rules info where it was mentioned that if OB is changed to red on more than three holes, then course needs re-rating. I do not know if this is a rule of thumb or more official guidance.

Thanks for the inputs so far...

There are a lot of brushy areas on our course that could fall into the Penalty Area criteria but boy, once you start marking them, where would stop? And honestly, most of the areas are pretty wide of the Intended play of the hole.....

I’m getting the sense from the responses so far that there aren’t Red Stakes popping up everywhere and the link from Halebopp is a great starting point for my Committee’s discussion!

There are significant disadvantages to penalty areas, such as:

- no free relief from abnormal course conditions - ground under repair, temporary water, animal holes

- no free relief from immovable obstructions - cart paths, irrigation boxes, sprinkler heads

- no application of unplayable ball Rule

- and, as noted above, the relief may be a long ways away (where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area)

Our course has not changed penalty area markings on any holes, nor removed any out of bounds stakes. We have implemented the Local Rule for stroke and distance, but only for recreational and casual play.

My club has adopted the Local Rule E-5, and has decided on very minimal changes to our penalty area markings, at least for now. We have a number of native grass "no-mow" areas which were discussed for being marked with red. There is certainly sentiment among some people that we SHOULD mark those, with myself and some others holding the opposite view. The markings could change in the future, I know I don't have the final vote.

How do i deleted an unwanted post?

@Newby, you can’t. I haven’t seen them say they are bringing that back.

> @4Par said:

> Thanks for the inputs so far...

>

> There are a lot of brushy areas on our course that could fall into the Penalty Area criteria but boy, once you start marking them, where would stop? And honestly, most of the areas are pretty wide of the Intended play of the hole.....

>

> I’m getting the sense from the responses so far that there aren’t Red Stakes popping up everywhere and the link from Halebopp is a great starting point for my Committee’s discussion!

>

>

>

>

>

>

I played a course recently that I had previously refereed on only. It is a Greg Norman design that has very wide fairways but when you get off the fairways, the rough is entirely unplayable thick stuff three feet high. The club has red-lined multiple holes all the way from tee to green and does not play the S&D 2SP local rule (E-5).

Our courses have adopted Local Rule E-5 and added several new penalty areas. I think it has improved the pace of play.

> @Roadking2003 said:

> Our courses have adopted Local Rule E-5 and added several new penalty areas. I think it has improved the pace of play.

What do feel made those new areas stand out as getting that designation?

Our courses have adopted Local Rule E-5 and added several new penalty areas. I think it has improved the pace of play.> @4Par said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > Our courses have adopted Local Rule E-5 and added several new penalty areas. I think it has improved the pace of play.

>

> What do feel made those new areas stand out as getting that designation?

We have several holes that have thick woods on both sides of the fairway. I assume they marked them as penalty areas to speed up play.

I expect to see many courses in some parts of the world, introduce new PAs where players regularly took lateral relief for an 'unfound' ball.

Am I correct in assuming that, in a course rating, a penalty area is considered ‘easier’ than ‘extreme rough’? Therefore, if a course makes quite a few such changes, they would need to be re rated and their slope and course rating would probably reduce?

Yes, extreme rough is counted as OB. In addition a PA is only 1ps, OB is S&D

This is why i think a lot of municipal(?) courses will use more lateral PAs rather than E-5.

Liberally taken relief from the former costs 1 stroke. Regulation relief from the latter, 2 strokes

> @Newby said:

> Yes, extreme rough is counted as OB. In addition a PA is only 1ps, OB is S&D

> This is why i think a lot of municipal(?) courses will use more lateral PAs rather than E-5.

Why would they do that and not the contrary? Lots of PAs means re-rating, lots of E-5 does not.

The courses who do are unlikely to volunteer to be rerated. Compulsory rerating is on a 10 year cycle. If they are really serious about it they take the stakes out when the rating team makes an appointment to view. 'Tricking up' (or even down) to satisfy a management policy for rating/pace of play/player friendliness et al is by no means unknown.

In a communication we received from the Virginia State GA, this issue was discussed. They said that, generally speaking, marking new areas as Penalty Areas might require a _modification_ to the ratings, but might not require a complete re-rating. I believe that the detailed records from the rating process are retained, so my guess is that they can simply change the "status" of these re-marked areas and re-run the calculations to get a modified slope and course rating.

Yes, that is the actual process. It would normally but not always involve some remeasuring.

> @Newby said:

> Yes, that is the actual process. It would normally but not always involve some remeasuring.

This is where I may misunderstand the rating process. There should be some data maintained from the most recent rating that indicate that on hole 3 (as an example) an area of tall unmowed grass begins 10 yards right of the landing area for the drive. As you mentioned earlier, that area of tall grass would generally be considered a S&D penalty, an almost certain lost ball. Would it not be a fairly simple matter to change the classification of that unmowed grass area to that of a red penalty area, with an attendant 1 stroke penalty, and re-run the calculations without requiring any re-measurement? I would anticipate that most newly marked penalty areas would be areas that have already been noted and measured during the rating process. Consequently, I would expect re-measuring to be the exception, rather than the norm. Please understand I'm not arguing my viewpoint, just hoping to learn a bit more.

Unless the margin has changed there would be no need to remeasure. However, a representative of a team may go out to check.

Haven’t been to my course yet but I’m curious about one possible change.

All of our OB is boundary fences except the hole that runs parallel to the driving range. I assume this could be changed from white to red?

I know we won’t be implementing Local Rule E-5.

> @Seamus_McDuff said:

> Haven’t been to my course yet but I’m curious about one possible change.

>

> All of our OB is boundary fences except the hole that runs parallel to the driving range. I assume this could be changed from white to red?

>

That would almost certainly need a review and reassessment of the holes involved

> @Seamus_McDuff said:

> Haven’t been to my course yet but I’m curious about one possible change.

>

> All of our OB is boundary fences except the hole that runs parallel to the driving range. I assume this could be changed from white to red?

>

> I know we won’t be implementing Local Rule E-5.

Isn’t the recommendation that practice areas including driving ranges should be OB as otherwise playing from such areas (as you are from a red penalty area) brings up the whole practice on the course ‘thing’ or has this recommendation changed?

We were certainly informed by England Golf, prior to hosting one of their championships, that all our practice areas should be made OB.

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @Seamus_McDuff said:

> > Haven’t been to my course yet but I’m curious about one possible change.

> >

> > All of our OB is boundary fences except the hole that runs parallel to the driving range. I assume this could be changed from white to red?

> >

> > I know we won’t be implementing Local Rule E-5.

>

> Isn’t the recommendation that practice areas including driving ranges should be OB as otherwise playing from such areas (as you are from a red penalty area) brings up the whole practice on the course ‘thing’ or has this recommendation changed?

>

> We were certainly informed by England Golf, prior to hosting one of their championships, that all our practice areas should be made OB.

>

It should have occurred to me that changing it to Red would allow someone to go out and play it from the range. That’s something we definitely don’t want. It’ll stay White.

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @Seamus_McDuff said:

> > Haven’t been to my course yet but I’m curious about one possible change.

> >

> > All of our OB is boundary fences except the hole that runs parallel to the driving range. I assume this could be changed from white to red?

> >

> > I know we won’t be implementing Local Rule E-5.

>

> Isn’t the recommendation that practice areas including driving ranges should be OB as otherwise playing from such areas (as you are from a red penalty area) brings up the whole practice on the course ‘thing’ or has this recommendation changed?

>

> We were certainly informed by England Golf, prior to hosting one of their championships, that all our practice areas should be made OB.

>

To be clear, it’s not illegal to practice in a practice area before or between rounds of a stroke play competition even if the area is on the course:

b. Stroke Play

On the day of a stroke-play competition:

• A player must not practise on the course before a round, except that the player may practise putting or chipping on or near his or her first teeing area and practise on any practice area.

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > @Seamus_McDuff said:

> > > Haven’t been to my course yet but I’m curious about one possible change.

> > >

> > > All of our OB is boundary fences except the hole that runs parallel to the driving range. I assume this could be changed from white to red?

> > >

> > > I know we won’t be implementing Local Rule E-5.

> >

> > Isn’t the recommendation that practice areas including driving ranges should be OB as otherwise playing from such areas (as you are from a red penalty area) brings up the whole practice on the course ‘thing’ or has this recommendation changed?

> >

> > We were certainly informed by England Golf, prior to hosting one of their championships, that all our practice areas should be made OB.

> >

> To be clear, it’s not illegal to practice in a practice area before or between rounds of a stroke play competition even if the area is on the course:

>

> b. Stroke Play

> On the day of a stroke-play competition:

> • A player must not practise on the course before a round, except that the player may practise putting or chipping on or near his or her first teeing area and practise on any practice area.

>

Thanks for the clarification.

I know it is outside your jurisdiction, but any idea as to why England Golf makes such a recommendation?