Slow Swing speeds, what ball do you use?

2

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  • lawsonmanlawsonman Freeport, IllinoisMembers Posts: 5,560 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Driver 210, 6 iron 150 carry. Snell MTB. One of the best all around balls I've played.

    Welcome to where dumb opinions are better than no opinion. :)

    Ping G400 9°
    Ping Anser 17,20,23, hybrid
    Ping G410 6-UW
    Ping Glide 54,58ES
    Scotty Cameron Newport 3
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    Snell MTB Black
  • swine7777swine7777 Members Posts: 67 ✭✭

    Maxfli 2019 Tour X Golf Balls 2/4/$50.00

  • Carolina Golfer 2Carolina Golfer 2 Members Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @swine7777 said:
    Maxfli 2019 Tour X Golf Balls 2/4/$50.00

    I found one if these yesterday and played it on the 18th hole. Holy cow. It held its line vey well into a 15 mph wind off rhe tee. Same on an approach with a 6 iron approach.

    Came up 15 yards short. Hit a percect 58 degree low spinner that literally stuck its landing 18 inches from the cup. like Simone Biles on her dismount.
    My buddy just assumed it was my ProV1x and about fell over when he went to knock it back ti me.

    PING G410+ 10.5 CK Tensi Orange 65g
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    PING Tyne 4 35"

  • JustsomeguyJustsomeguy Members Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    The maxfli tour x is excellent. Regular tour leaves a lot to be desired. Can't tell why such a disparity, but there it is.

    Cobra F9 10.5* Project X Evenflow Blue 65 R - CAMO!
    Cobra F9 15* 5w Project X Evenflow Blue 65 R
    Titleist 915H 20* Diamana S+ Blue 70, R
    Titleist 716 AP1 4-W52, Kuro Kage Tini 65, S
    Cleveland CBX, 56*/12, Rotex Graphite Wedge Flex
    Cleveland Smart Square Blade
  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I carry a driver about 230 yards and an 8-iron (36 degrees) about 150 yards. I usually play the Srixon SoftFeel or Callaway SuperSoft/SuperHot. I am a long-time surlyn ball player so I am probably biased (I may switch once my current supply of balls is gone).

    I know what the other ball test said but my observations are:

    a) I cannot tell any difference off the driver. If there are differnces, it is within the variance of my strike and course conditions. My gut instinct is that the softer balls can actually go farther for some people due to slightly lower spin and higher launch. Really depends on how it matches with the person's driver.

    b) the softer surlyn balls fly higher off the irons and are more stable in the wind. I don't notice a material difference in stopping power. If anything, I'd argue that the lower lofted irons stop just as fast with the surlyn due to its higher flight. There is usually a bit more release with the shorter clubs and you rarely bring one back though.

    Obviously the urethane ball gives you more options around the green. For me, this is only relevant on about 20%-30% of greenside shots on average. And on these shots there isn't necessarily a high conversion rate anyways (just degree of difficulty and execution).

    Net-net, I'm of the belief that the ball type doesn't make much difference for anyone shooting between 80-100. I do question whether some of these lower flight tour balls are actually making full swing approach shots more difficult for those with moderate swing speeds.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  Ping Eye 2+ (58*) or Ping Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • arbeckarbeck SeattleMembers Posts: 438 ✭✭✭✭

    @agolf1 said:
    I carry a driver about 230 yards and an 8-iron (36 degrees) about 150 yards. I usually play the Srixon SoftFeel or Callaway SuperSoft/SuperHot. I am a long-time surlyn ball player so I am probably biased (I may switch once my current supply of balls is gone).

    I know what the other ball test said but my observations are:

    a) I cannot tell any difference off the driver. If there are differnces, it is within the variance of my strike and course conditions. My gut instinct is that the softer balls can actually go farther for some people due to slightly lower spin and higher launch. Really depends on how it matches with the person's driver.

    b) the softer surlyn balls fly higher off the irons and are more stable in the wind. I don't notice a material difference in stopping power. If anything, I'd argue that the lower lofted irons stop just as fast with the surlyn due to its higher flight. There is usually a bit more release with the shorter clubs and you rarely bring one back though.

    Obviously the urethane ball gives you more options around the green. For me, this is only relevant on about 20%-30% of greenside shots on average. And on these shots there isn't necessarily a high conversion rate anyways (just degree of difficulty and execution).

    Net-net, I'm of the belief that the ball type doesn't make much difference for anyone shooting between 80-100. I do question whether some of these lower flight tour balls are actually making full swing approach shots more difficult for those with moderate swing speeds.

    a) Off the driver, almost all quality modern balls are going to be fairly well optimized. You're talking a degree or two of launch and a few hundred RPM's of spin at most. Strike is going to override the differences for almost all of us. If all soft balls actually launched higher with less spin, they might go a little further; but the designers of the balls are so good now that every ball works well off the driver. And it is true that once you start to get above an 80MPH driver swing, you are going to start to lose ball speed with a soft ball.

    b) The effects in the wind are going to be hard to test because there are so many variable. There might be something to this. With Surlyn balls, the issue I have isn't stopping power, it has more to do with consistent distance. When spin drops off an already low spin ball due to conditions, I'm much more likely to get a ball that is a flyer.

    Ping Traverse
    King Cobra F7 10.5* w/ Mitsubishi Tensi CK Blue 60 set at 9.5*
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    Scotty Cameron Squareback
  •  SwooshLT SwooshLT Members Posts: 7,145 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:
    Maybe 90mph driver swing on a good day. Driver 205-ish, hit 6-iron from 150.

    Pro V1x but I have played AVX, B330, TP5 with pretty much similar results to my favorite V1x.

    Also played the Chrome Soft for a while but it seemed to fly a little low and sometimes have trouble holding greens (or maybe I just didn't give it a long enough chance to know for sure).

    Similar to you. ..have you tried Srixon Qstar Tour?

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @ SwooshLT said:

    @North Butte said:
    Maybe 90mph driver swing on a good day. Driver 205-ish, hit 6-iron from 150.

    Pro V1x but I have played AVX, B330, TP5 with pretty much similar results to my favorite V1x.

    Also played the Chrome Soft for a while but it seemed to fly a little low and sometimes have trouble holding greens (or maybe I just didn't give it a long enough chance to know for sure).

    Similar to you. ..have you tried Srixon Qstar Tour?

    Nope, sure haven't.

    Only Srixons I've tried were the original Z-Star and I think one sleeve of the Z-Star SL they made for a while.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  •  SwooshLT SwooshLT Members Posts: 7,145 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:

    @ SwooshLT said:

    @North Butte said:
    Maybe 90mph driver swing on a good day. Driver 205-ish, hit 6-iron from 150.

    Pro V1x but I have played AVX, B330, TP5 with pretty much similar results to my favorite V1x.

    Also played the Chrome Soft for a while but it seemed to fly a little low and sometimes have trouble holding greens (or maybe I just didn't give it a long enough chance to know for sure).

    Similar to you. ..have you tried Srixon Qstar Tour?

    Nope, sure haven't.

    Only Srixons I've tried were the original Z-Star and I think one sleeve of the Z-Star SL they made for a while.

    Interesting ball.....plays like a Zstar but easier to compress. The Bridgestone balls are solid also

  • jobinjobin Members Posts: 16 ✭✭

    My opinion: if handicap above 25, the ball played is 0.1% of the result. If HC 15, then ball played is 1%; if HC under 10 then ball accounts for 2% of result.
    So obviously the better, more consistent the player, the more the ball can make a difference.
    I mean, if you think yourself really good on the piano, and can only play 'Twinkle Twinkle' with ease, then whether you play that song on a Steinway or Yamaha makes zero difference.

  • JustsomeguyJustsomeguy Members Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm taking on a cheap ball experiment. Have worked my premium balls down to 2 doz, so I wanted to buy a batch of cheaper surlyn 2-piece. My choices were either the costco callaway ball, double dozen for 50ish, or the laddie precept extreme, double dozen for 20.
    I've found precept laddie extremes on the course before and have had nothing but good play w them. They're a low tier bridgetone ball intended for the under 100mph crowd, to which I belong.
    At the price point, I think it's a solid experiment to play a softer distance ball.
    Will report back.

    Cobra F9 10.5* Project X Evenflow Blue 65 R - CAMO!
    Cobra F9 15* 5w Project X Evenflow Blue 65 R
    Titleist 915H 20* Diamana S+ Blue 70, R
    Titleist 716 AP1 4-W52, Kuro Kage Tini 65, S
    Cleveland CBX, 56*/12, Rotex Graphite Wedge Flex
    Cleveland Smart Square Blade
  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:

    @ SwooshLT said:

    @North Butte said:
    Maybe 90mph driver swing on a good day. Driver 205-ish, hit 6-iron from 150.

    Pro V1x but I have played AVX, B330, TP5 with pretty much similar results to my favorite V1x.

    Also played the Chrome Soft for a while but it seemed to fly a little low and sometimes have trouble holding greens (or maybe I just didn't give it a long enough chance to know for sure).

    Similar to you. ..have you tried Srixon Qstar Tour?

    Nope, sure haven't.

    Only Srixons I've tried were the original Z-Star and I think one sleeve of the Z-Star SL they made for a while.

    Any reason why you don't try the QST? I am interested in this one once the stash of surlyn balls is gone. I am hoping it is like the soft surlyn balls with a tad more spin.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  Ping Eye 2+ (58*) or Ping Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @North Butte said:

    @ SwooshLT said:

    @North Butte said:
    Maybe 90mph driver swing on a good day. Driver 205-ish, hit 6-iron from 150.

    Pro V1x but I have played AVX, B330, TP5 with pretty much similar results to my favorite V1x.

    Also played the Chrome Soft for a while but it seemed to fly a little low and sometimes have trouble holding greens (or maybe I just didn't give it a long enough chance to know for sure).

    Similar to you. ..have you tried Srixon Qstar Tour?

    Nope, sure haven't.

    Only Srixons I've tried were the original Z-Star and I think one sleeve of the Z-Star SL they made for a while.

    Any reason why you don't try the QST? I am interested in this one once the stash of surlyn balls is gone. I am hoping it is like the soft surlyn balls with a tad more spin.

    It's just one of the many balls I've never tried, no particular reason.

    I may sound like I try a lot of balls, and I guess over the years the number has added up, but I tend to go for months at a time playing one type. So there's way more I haven't tried than ones I have!

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • xkilgorextroutxxkilgorextroutx Members Posts: 268 ✭✭✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @North Butte said:

    @ SwooshLT said:

    @North Butte said:
    Maybe 90mph driver swing on a good day. Driver 205-ish, hit 6-iron from 150.

    Pro V1x but I have played AVX, B330, TP5 with pretty much similar results to my favorite V1x.

    Also played the Chrome Soft for a while but it seemed to fly a little low and sometimes have trouble holding greens (or maybe I just didn't give it a long enough chance to know for sure).

    Similar to you. ..have you tried Srixon Qstar Tour?

    Nope, sure haven't.

    Only Srixons I've tried were the original Z-Star and I think one sleeve of the Z-Star SL they made for a while.

    Any reason why you don't try the QST? I am interested in this one once the stash of surlyn balls is gone. I am hoping it is like the soft surlyn balls with a tad more spin.

    My driver SS is right around 95, and I just love the QST. Definitely better stopping power around the greens than a comparably priced surlyn ball. When you don't generate enough speed to get those towering wedge shots, you need all the help you can get holding greens. I always found that 2 piece "soft" balls tended to bounce and roll out far too much for me on approach shots.

  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @xkilgorextroutx said:

    @agolf1 said:

    @North Butte said:

    @ SwooshLT said:

    @North Butte said:
    Maybe 90mph driver swing on a good day. Driver 205-ish, hit 6-iron from 150.

    Pro V1x but I have played AVX, B330, TP5 with pretty much similar results to my favorite V1x.

    Also played the Chrome Soft for a while but it seemed to fly a little low and sometimes have trouble holding greens (or maybe I just didn't give it a long enough chance to know for sure).

    Similar to you. ..have you tried Srixon Qstar Tour?

    Nope, sure haven't.

    Only Srixons I've tried were the original Z-Star and I think one sleeve of the Z-Star SL they made for a while.

    Any reason why you don't try the QST? I am interested in this one once the stash of surlyn balls is gone. I am hoping it is like the soft surlyn balls with a tad more spin.

    My driver SS is right around 95, and I just love the QST. Definitely better stopping power around the greens than a comparably priced surlyn ball. When you don't generate enough speed to get those towering wedge shots, you need all the help you can get holding greens. I always found that 2 piece "soft" balls tended to bounce and roll out far too much for me on approach shots.

    I definitely plan to give them a try / my speed is similar. For me, the difference in run-out (between balls) on full swing iron / wedge shots is not that much. I'd say 5 yards at most and a lot of the times 2-3 yards or less. I don't think there is that much difference in spin (maybe 500-1000 rpms, which is like 1-2 clubs) and the surlyn balls tend to fly higher (vs. ProV1 or TP5), which negatives some of the spin difference. With the partial wedge shots there is definitely a difference. I am still debating whether it matters in terms of score.

    Any others besides the QST that you like? The Snell MTB Black is also on my list to try, although the QST seems to have more characteristics that I like.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  Ping Eye 2+ (58*) or Ping Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @xkilgorextroutx said:

    @agolf1 said:

    @North Butte said:

    @ SwooshLT said:

    @North Butte said:
    Maybe 90mph driver swing on a good day. Driver 205-ish, hit 6-iron from 150.

    Pro V1x but I have played AVX, B330, TP5 with pretty much similar results to my favorite V1x.

    Also played the Chrome Soft for a while but it seemed to fly a little low and sometimes have trouble holding greens (or maybe I just didn't give it a long enough chance to know for sure).

    Similar to you. ..have you tried Srixon Qstar Tour?

    Nope, sure haven't.

    Only Srixons I've tried were the original Z-Star and I think one sleeve of the Z-Star SL they made for a while.

    Any reason why you don't try the QST? I am interested in this one once the stash of surlyn balls is gone. I am hoping it is like the soft surlyn balls with a tad more spin.

    My driver SS is right around 95, and I just love the QST. Definitely better stopping power around the greens than a comparably priced surlyn ball. When you don't generate enough speed to get those towering wedge shots, you need all the help you can get holding greens. I always found that 2 piece "soft" balls tended to bounce and roll out far too much for me on approach shots.

    I definitely plan to give them a try / my speed is similar. For me, the difference in run-out (between balls) on full swing iron / wedge shots is not that much. I'd say 5 yards at most and a lot of the times 2-3 yards or less. I don't think there is that much difference in spin (maybe 500-1000 rpms, which is like 1-2 clubs) and the surlyn balls tend to fly higher (vs. ProV1 or TP5), which negatives some of the spin difference. With the partial wedge shots there is definitely a difference. I am still debating whether it matters in terms of score.

    Any others besides the QST that you like? The Snell MTB Black is also on my list to try, although the QST seems to have more characteristics that I like.

    You can't go wrong with the QST, it has green side spin, enough feel and priced right. It might be in my head. But, the white feels better than the yellow. Which is not great since I prefer a yellow ball.

  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Pro VX
    Using softer balls feels nice but the reality is they are usually shorter off the driver. The VX is higher trajectory so it helps get the ball in the air if you have lower speed. Much better around the greens as well than soft core hard cover balls.


    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w, Ping G410 7 wood
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, Vokey M Grind 58
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Jones Utility
    ProV1x
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 14, 2019 1:11pm #49

    @dlygrisse said:
    Pro VX
    Using softer balls feels nice but the reality is they are usually shorter off the driver. The VX is higher trajectory so it helps get the ball in the air if you have lower speed. Much better around the greens as well than soft core hard cover balls.

    Every time I venture out into a different ball (for instance I thought there was a lot to like about AVX) in the end I feel like I'm missing out that high ball flight and/or max stopping power. Here are the reasons I keep coming back to Pro V1x year after year:
    1) I don't hit the ball very far but Pro V1x goes as long as anything (give or take some extra roll-out on AVX).
    2) I suffer from low trajectory throughout the bag but Pro V1x flies higher, by design, than most urethane balls.
    3) With low clubhead speed and dodgy contact, spin is at a premium in both approach shots and short game. There might be a few balls that spin more than Pro V1x but it's right up there with the best of them.

    Maximizing height, ball speed (such as it for me!) and spin has only one downside. Those things are expensive. But I either shop for deals on eBay or buy the 4-for-3 deal in the spring. Fortunately, I average only around a ball per round lost at my home course. When I play somewhere else (like resort courses with water and OB everywhere) I just take along a dozen cheap balls rather than worry about losing $4 Titleists.

    Other than finding a ball to be unusually short (very rare but I have tried a couple awful models over the years) the one thing that just totally gets in my head and ruins a ball for me is when I hit a perfectly struck shot that lands right where it needs to land but then hops over the green or way above the hole because the ball either didn't spin or came in too low. It's worth playing Pro V1x just to know the ball is doing everything it can to avoid those outcomes.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:

    @dlygrisse said:
    Pro VX
    Using softer balls feels nice but the reality is they are usually shorter off the driver. The VX is higher trajectory so it helps get the ball in the air if you have lower speed. Much better around the greens as well than soft core hard cover balls.

    Every time I venture out into a different ball (for instance I thought there was a lot to like about AVX) in the end I feel like I'm missing out that high ball flight and/or max stopping power. Here are the reasons I keep coming back to Pro V1x year after year:
    1) I don't hit the ball very far but Pro V1x goes as long as anything (give or take some extra roll-out on AVX).
    2) I suffer from low trajectory throughout the bag but Pro V1x flies higher, by design, than most urethane balls.
    3) With low clubhead speed and dodgy contact, spin is at a premium in both approach shots and short game. There might be a few balls that spin more than Pro V1x but it's right up there with the best of them.

    Maximizing height, ball speed (such as it for me!) and spin has only one downside. Those things are expensive. But I either shop for deals on eBay or buy the 4-for-3 deal in the spring. Fortunately, I average only around a ball per round lost at my home course. When I play somewhere else (like resort courses with water and OB everywhere) I just take along a dozen cheap balls rather than worry about losing $4 Titleists.

    Other than finding a ball to be unusually short (very rare but I have tried a couple awful models over the years) the one thing that just totally gets in my head and ruins a ball for me is when I hit a perfectly struck shot that lands right where it needs to land but then hops over the green or way above the hole because the ball either didn't spin or came in too low. It's worth playing Pro V1x just to know the ball is doing everything it can to avoid those outcomes.

    Agreed. I find some of the soft core balls to be really long with the irons, but about the same distance or shorter with the driver. I really have a hard time controlling wedge shots with something like a Callaway Supersoft, although I will hit a PW a good 5 yards longer than with a ProV. The quality tour balls are all about controlling your irons, the closer you get to the hole the better they perform. And please get over the myth that a softer ball will be longer for lower speed people, it just isn't true, the harder core balls will almost always fly longer with a driver no matter the speed. the softer core balls just "feel" better.


    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w, Ping G410 7 wood
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, Vokey M Grind 58
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Jones Utility
    ProV1x
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dlygrisse said:
    Agreed. I find some of the soft core balls to be really long with the irons, but about the same distance or shorter with the driver. I really have a hard time controlling wedge shots with something like a Callaway Supersoft, although I will hit a PW a good 5 yards longer than with a ProV. The quality tour balls are all about controlling your irons, the closer you get to the hole the better they perform. And please get over the myth that a softer ball will be longer for lower speed people, it just isn't true, the harder core balls will almost always fly longer with a driver no matter the speed. the softer core balls just "feel" better.

    I also think the Supersoft type balls are marginally longer off the irons. I think they are the same or just as long with the driver, although as noted above it's really hard to control for everything to know for sure. But conceptually I can see how the slightly higher launch and lower spin could make up any velocity difference.

    As I noted above, I don't see a material difference in run-out between these two types of balls for full iron shots. Quite frankly, I can't control my strike, judge the wind, air temp, and any elevation change within 5 yards anyways. For every tour like shot that I hit perfect and it ends up within 10 feet of the hole, there are just as many where the strike is very good and I'm 30+ feet short or long. I get the positives everyone is pushing about better control but I doubt most recreational golfers shooting something north of 80 can really control their ball to a degree that it makes a difference.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  Ping Eye 2+ (58*) or Ping Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dlygrisse said:
    And please get over the myth that a softer ball will be longer for lower speed people, it just isn't true, the harder core balls will almost always fly longer with a driver no matter the speed. the softer core balls just "feel" better.

    I was actually shooting the breeze about this topic recently with my wife. She knows less than bupkes about golf or golf balls but she spent her career studying human behavior and, in particular, human group behavior.

    When I described this immune-to-falsification belief in the need for special "slow clubhead speed" golf balls she said, "Well, that's obvious. It's about identifying with a group or 'type' of golfer. And every 'type' wants to be special". She said basically good luck convincing people otherwise if there are companies out there marketing golf balls in a way that capitalizes on that belief.

    She's pretty smart. And the more I think about it, the more I think she has it sussed out.

    Think about how the first thing people ask when you mention golf is, "What's your handicap?". If they are golfers themselves they will mentally group you into some category or another based on your answer. And they might go on to say, "I'm not nearly that good". Or maybe they say nothing at all because they're thinking, "OK, he's a hack then".

    We also say things like, "He's a big hitter" or "I don't hit it very far but I'm pretty straight". Everybody pigeonholes themselves into where ever they think they fit in the golfing food chain. When people think like that, it's like shooting fish in a barrel to target some sub-group with marketing designed to make them loyal to a particular product that was designed with them especially in mind. That's been the source of the "soft balls for short hitters" meme for quite a few years now.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 14, 2019 3:24pm #53

    @North Butte said:

    @dlygrisse said:
    And please get over the myth that a softer ball will be longer for lower speed people, it just isn't true, the harder core balls will almost always fly longer with a driver no matter the speed. the softer core balls just "feel" better.

    I was actually shooting the breeze about this topic recently with my wife. She knows less than bupkes about golf or golf balls but she spent her career studying human behavior and, in particular, human group behavior.

    When I described this immune-to-falsification belief in the need for special "slow clubhead speed" golf balls she said, "Well, that's obvious. It's about identifying with a group or 'type' of golfer. And every 'type' wants to be special". She said basically good luck convincing people otherwise if there are companies out there marketing golf balls in a way that capitalizes on that belief.

    She's pretty smart. And the more I think about it, the more I think she has it sussed out.

    Think about how the first thing people ask when you mention golf is, "What's your handicap?". If they are golfers themselves they will mentally group you into some category or another based on your answer. And they might go on to say, "I'm not nearly that good". Or maybe they say nothing at all because they're thinking, "OK, he's a hack then".

    We also say things like, "He's a big hitter" or "I don't hit it very far but I'm pretty straight". Everybody pigeonholes themselves into where ever they think they fit in the golfing food chain. When people think like that, it's like shooting fish in a barrel to target some sub-group with marketing designed to make them loyal to a particular product that was designed with them especially in mind. That's been the source of the "soft balls for short hitters" meme for quite a few years now.

    Maybe true.

    But companies also sell aspirational beliefs to a bunch of people everywhere. Like you (not "you" but people in general) need tour level spin around the greens. This being told to people that have no idea what they are doing with a LW from 50 yards in front of the green (and yes, I am waiting for everyone here to tell me that they can actually control it only to find out they have average up and down skills for their skill level).

    Bottom line, we all also believe what we want to believe when we want to believe it. Bucketing and marketing wise, there's a lot of people that probably believe in GI irons and how that helps them. But yeah, that's 100% science and 0% marketing...

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Except I can see with my own eyes that a urethane ball will stop in situations where a surlyn ball will roll forward. And I can see that I am not suffering any loss of distance due to "not compressing" a Pro V1.

    There's a difference between an aspirational couching of actual facts (i.e. a urethane ball does demonstrably spin more and stop more quickly than a Surlyn one) versus nonsensical half-claims that have no factual basis (i.e. a low compression ball will go farther for me because my 90mph swing will "compress" it more).

    Now do I NEED a Pro V1? Nope, I can play just fine with a SuperSoft or even a Pinnacle. But the fact I can live with or without the differences between those types does not mean the differences are non-existent.

    Will I gain distance and consistency and slice correction by playing an e6 instead? No, there is zero evidence for that either in my experience or in any meaningful test that's ever been published.

    When Srixon came out with the Q-star (surlyn) ball it was an overpriced, basic, middle-of-the-road ball. They pitched it as someone suited for less-than-Tour-level hackers and had some modest success selling it at a fairly premium price point for what it was. They had much less success pitching a lower compression Tour ball in the Z-Star SL. I don't think those sold at all, people who wanted a Tour ball would just buy the regular Z-Star like they saw used on Tour.

    The stroke of marketing genius was to take the Q-star name, tack "Tour" onto it and gain market acceptance for a urethane ball that (by virtue of the "Q" rather than "Z" in the name) was still distinct enough from the Z-star to appeal to all those golfers who believe they need a ball that specially addresses their slow speed needs. They seem to be selling way better than Z-Star SL ever did, at any rate.

    “1lb beefstak, with
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    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know about the "compress" it more. I've never really thought that was the main thing, as you see many women or younger players with moderate speeds playing the ProV like balls too. I have thought that the flight characteristics may make the soft balls work better for some. Maybe not longer but not any worse than the other choice (like the ball test implies).

    Maybe we are pissing over the exact marketing tactics used. My point is more basic in that people buy all kinds of crap thinking it does wonders for them when it really doesn't. I don't know what the ads say these days but at one point I thought some companies were telling hacks a premium ball is even more important to them because they miss 12 greens instead of 6 greens. As if that by itself is going to give the chump a tour level short game.

    I still contend that a Velocity will be straighter than a ProV if it's spinning less (maybe the the newer ProVs are literally the same). The problem is when people slice one 30 yards into the water hazard they simply assume there's no difference (it's the same pro blade vs. CB argument of only 100% flushed shots and penalty shot swings). No one remembers being in the first cut of rough vs. the fairway while they do remember when their ball hopped over the green on a wedge shot. The difference may not be large but there is a difference. If 500 rpms with a 7-iron matters than a few hundred with a driver must matter too.

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    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  Ping Eye 2+ (58*) or Ping Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I like Titleist's approach to marketing and am also fine with Taylormade's and Callaway's. I detest the long-time marketing approaches of Bridgestone and Srixon who tend to base their entire pitch over properly pairing up clubhead speed to the compression of the golf ball.

    Bridgestone now seems to be backpedaling from their original "fitting" idea of hitting shots with a driver to determine the best ball and also appear to be steering their pitch more toward "handicap" rather than "speed" to match a particular ball. Srixon is like a watered-down version of the Bridgestone pitch.

    Titleist says the Pro V1 and Pro V1x is the best ball they know how to make. And that it will work for any clubhead speed, any skill level of player. Then they say if those balls don't suit you, there are softer ones or cheaper ones or harder ones that you might like better. But even then they explicitly pitch that you choose a ball that works well in all phases of the game and trust that the distant performance will be somewhere close to what the Rules allow.

    And yeah, they wrap it all in a cringe-inducing ad campaign full of unctuous Jim Nance voice-overs and dreamy shots of people carrying their stand bags over dew-covered, immaculate, near-empty country club courses. Plus lots and lots and lots of Tour player smiling faces. Bleccch! But their actual fact-based marketing content is above reproach.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 260 ✭✭✭✭

    Marketing is one thing. Scores on the card on the other. I am not skilled enough to play Pro V's but I love beating guys who think they are.

  •  SwooshLT SwooshLT Members Posts: 7,145 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dlygrisse said:
    Pro VX
    Using softer balls feels nice but the reality is they are usually shorter off the driver. The VX is higher trajectory so it helps get the ball in the air if you have lower speed. Much better around the greens as well than soft core hard cover balls.

    Is ProVX as high a flight as Srixon QST?

  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 260 ✭✭✭✭

    QST launches higher per a certain website test data.

  • arbeckarbeck SeattleMembers Posts: 438 ✭✭✭✭

    @ SwooshLT said:

    @dlygrisse said:
    Pro VX
    Using softer balls feels nice but the reality is they are usually shorter off the driver. The VX is higher trajectory so it helps get the ball in the air if you have lower speed. Much better around the greens as well than soft core hard cover balls.

    Is ProVX as high a flight as Srixon QST?

    Off the driver, I doubt you'll notice a difference. On irons and wedges the QST will launch higher, spin less, and peak higher.

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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm talking about peak downrange trajectory, not initial launch angle which is simply an inverse function of spin.

    In the Site Which Must Not Be Named here is the Max Height: Driver stats for selected balls at 85mph:
    Z-Star (Yellow) 70
    Z-Star 66
    Z-Star XV 66
    Q-Star Tour 66
    Pro V1x 65
    Pro V1 64
    AVX 62

    At 115mph:
    Z-Star (Yellow) 124
    Z-Star XV 124
    Z-Star 116
    Pro V1 115
    Pro V1x 112
    Q-Star Tour 109
    AVX 108

    I would say the pattern in those numbers are somewhat different than what I've observed in my own game.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 

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