Driver Fitting Proves What I've Believed ...

elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 152 ✭✭
edited Apr 8, 2019 2:12am in Instruction & Academy #1

distance gains really arent proven by the data if your old driver was well fit, which mine was.

I had a fitting today outdoors on Trackman. made a lot of swing improvement and changes over the past 2 years. never hit irons and wedges better. but the driver has been much slower to come around. but the last month the driver is slowly clicking. so i wanted to get a new driver, because I play an R11s. i figured improving upon it would be a breeze. NOPE. Fitter was really good and thorough and nothing even came close to consistently improving ball speed or dispersion. Nada. I was shocked. The old R11s felt better and performed better than any of the new stuff. I didnt hit mizuno or cobra, but callaway and TM and titliest new stuff just couldnt do much. my swing speed was measuring 103-107, which is right where i play on the course. i knew driver tech didnt really improve a great deal year to year, but in 8 years? i was surprised.

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Comments

  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,582 ✭✭

    @elthrill said:
    distance gains really arent proven by the data if your old driver was well fit, which mine was.

    I had a fitting today outdoors on Trackman. made a lot of swing improvement and changes over the past 2 years. never hit irons and wedges better. but the driver has been much slower to come around. but the last month the driver is slowly clicking. so i wanted to get a new driver, because I play an R11s. i figured improving upon it would be a breeze. NOPE. Fitter was really good and thorough and nothing even came close to consistently improving ball speed or dispersion. Nada. I was shocked. The old R11s felt better and performed better than any of the new stuff. I didnt hit mizuno or cobra, but callaway and TM and titliest new stuff just couldnt do much. my swing speed was measuring 103-107, which is right where i play on the course. i knew driver tech didnt really improve a great deal year to year, but in 8 years? i was surprised.

    Not sure why you'd be shocked.

    COR, or whatever the current term for it is, has been maxed out for over a dozen years so max ball speed won't vary much difference from head to head. Only thing you can do now is max out your launch conditions by marrying the "right" head with the right shaft.

    Only thing the manufacturers can do is find ways to spread out the max speed as much as they can OFF the sweet spot thereby improving performance on OFF center hits along with improving forgiveness in general.

    The rest is under "operator control". LOL


    Callaway Epic 10.5 Project X Hzrdus Yellow 63 gr, 6.0
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  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 152 ✭✭

    @nsxguy said:

    @elthrill said:
    distance gains really arent proven by the data if your old driver was well fit, which mine was.

    I had a fitting today outdoors on Trackman. made a lot of swing improvement and changes over the past 2 years. never hit irons and wedges better. but the driver has been much slower to come around. but the last month the driver is slowly clicking. so i wanted to get a new driver, because I play an R11s. i figured improving upon it would be a breeze. NOPE. Fitter was really good and thorough and nothing even came close to consistently improving ball speed or dispersion. Nada. I was shocked. The old R11s felt better and performed better than any of the new stuff. I didnt hit mizuno or cobra, but callaway and TM and titliest new stuff just couldnt do much. my swing speed was measuring 103-107, which is right where i play on the course. i knew driver tech didnt really improve a great deal year to year, but in 8 years? i was surprised.

    Not sure why you'd be shocked.

    COR, or whatever the current term for it is, has been maxed out for over a dozen years so max ball speed won't vary much difference from head to head. Only thing you can do now is max out your launch conditions by marrying the "right" head with the right shaft.

    Only thing the manufacturers can do is find ways to spread out the max speed as much as they can OFF the sweet spot thereby improving performance on OFF center hits along with improving forgiveness in general.

    The rest is under "operator control". LOL

    im on golfwrx. most guys have traded drivers 8 times since I last changed. so yeah, i expected more help from a new club damnit! and my smash was really solid all day. so anyway, $500 i Saved,

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,070 ✭✭
    edited Apr 8, 2019 11:25am #4

    @elthrill said:
    i knew driver tech didnt really improve a great deal year to year, but in 8 years? i was surprised.

    COR has been maxed out for a long time now. Since then the tech has mostly been addressing improvements for those people that can NOT hit the center of the face or have other impact issues that need some help from the head: off center COR, higher MOI, c.g. tweaks to better utilize or even minimize gear effect, etc...

    So keep enjoying that r11 (I still have mine - although it's not my main driver).

  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members Posts: 1,655 ✭✭

    I just wonder then how people are hitting it further and further. Is it just improved swing mechanics and greater athleticism?

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,070 ✭✭

    @Golfbeat said:
    I just wonder then how people are hitting it further and further. Is it just improved swing mechanics and greater athleticism?

    Who's hitting it further and further? And where is the source of that data?

  • North TexasNorth Texas Members Posts: 4,108 ✭✭

    @Stuart G. said:

    @Golfbeat said:
    I just wonder then how people are hitting it further and further. Is it just improved swing mechanics and greater athleticism?

    Who's hitting it further and further? And where is the source of that data?

    Yesterday on the telecast of the LPGA even they specifically talked about how I.K. Kim was driving the ball 20 yards farther then she ever had. I don't recall what, or if, they attributed it to. However, here are here stats for the past 3 years and currently. BTW, she average 273 during the ANA Inspiration.

    2015 244.96
    2017 248.29
    2018 245.75
    2019 267.45

  • jshuffjshuff Members Posts: 103 ✭✭

    My driver fitting that I did a few weeks ago proved that, regardless of how much I try to hit up on the driver, I hit down on it between 0.5 to 2.0 degrees. 🤦‍♂️

  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,437 ✭✭

    @North Texas said:

    @Stuart G. said:

    @Golfbeat said:
    I just wonder then how people are hitting it further and further. Is it just improved swing mechanics and greater athleticism?

    Who's hitting it further and further? And where is the source of that data?

    Yesterday on the telecast of the LPGA even they specifically talked about how I.K. Kim was driving the ball 20 yards farther then she ever had. I don't recall what, or if, they attributed it to. However, here are here stats for the past 3 years and currently. BTW, she average 273 during the ANA Inspiration.

    2015 244.96
    2017 248.29
    2018 245.75
    2019 267.45

    They said shes working specifically on increasing SS

  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,437 ✭✭

    @Stuart G. said:

    @elthrill said:
    i knew driver tech didnt really improve a great deal year to year, but in 8 years? i was surprised.

    COR has been maxed out for a long time now. Since then the tech has mostly been addressing improvements for those people that can NOT hit the center of the face or have other impact issues that need some help from the head: off center COR, higher MOI, c.g. tweaks to better utilize or even minimize gear effect, etc...

    So keep enjoying that r11 (I still have mine - although it's not my main driver).

    I would say a lot has gone into optimizing launch conditions as well.

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,070 ✭✭
    edited Apr 8, 2019 2:57pm #11

    @Krt22 said:

    @Stuart G. said:

    @elthrill said:
    i knew driver tech didnt really improve a great deal year to year, but in 8 years? i was surprised.

    COR has been maxed out for a long time now. Since then the tech has mostly been addressing improvements for those people that can NOT hit the center of the face or have other impact issues that need some help from the head: off center COR, higher MOI, c.g. tweaks to better utilize or even minimize gear effect, etc...

    So keep enjoying that r11 (I still have mine - although it's not my main driver).

    I would say a lot has gone into optimizing launch conditions as well.

    For certain individuals - but that comes under the covered category I already mentioned of: "or have other impact issues that need some help from the head" - which usually (although not always) means an impact with too much dynamic launch delivered and gets too much spin as a result.

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,590 ✭✭

    @Golfbeat said:
    I just wonder then how people are hitting it further and further. Is it just improved swing mechanics and greater athleticism?

    Juiced numbers, elevated tee boxes, tour stuff on the edge of being illegal (random tests done by R&A at British Open prove it may be a problem), new balls taking advantage of optimum conditions, driver heads and shafts taking advantage of optimum conditions. And also new fitness routines out there helps! Super speed sticks helped me so I’m sure they help the pros some. Launch monitors , all making the perfect storm of distance gains.
    Not for us average joes though :(

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,590 ✭✭

    @jshuff said:
    My driver fitting that I did a few weeks ago proved that, regardless of how much I try to hit up on the driver, I hit down on it between 0.5 to 2.0 degrees. 🤦‍♂️

    Have you tried hitting the ball up a bit in your stance? The arc ascends later on in the swing. Swing normal and catch it on the upswing. I read this may work

  • Ri_RedneckRi_Redneck Leather for Life!! Members Posts: 5,445 ✭✭

    Even the ladies are into conditioning for the sport. Trust me, they are working out and doing everything they can to win. Not to mention any equipment tweaks they need for any given day.

    BT

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    Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
    Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

    Bag 2
    Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
    Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
    Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
    Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
    Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge
  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,188 ✭✭

    Should probably include the qualifier "properly fit". I did a pga superstore driver fitting years ago then did a fitting at Man'o'War in Lexington and it was a night and day difference.

    2016 M1 9.5 tuned to 7.5
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  • kcowgolfkcowgolf kcowgolf Members Posts: 300 ✭✭

    Shaft optimization as well as increased forgiveness is really all you might hope to gain

    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Ping G 400 LST 8.5 Hzdrus Black 62 X[/background][/font]
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    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Ping G400 17 Hybrid Matrix Kujoh X[/background][/font]
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  • crapulacrapula Golf! Members Posts: 1,783 ✭✭

    I played an Adams Fast 12 LS for 6 years because every fitting showed better or same numbers with the Adams.
    The only reason I went to the Srixon z785 driver is the Adams finally died. I even bought another brand new Adams Fast 12 LS on eBay for $40 and that one broke within 40 rounds.

    I have noticed much better forgiveness with the Srixon, but oddly enough I also notice I miss-hit the Srixon more often. I'm obsessed with looking at the driver face for contact point after every shot.

    Srixon Z 785 9.5 Project X HC HZRDUS Yellow 6.0
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    Srixon Z 785 3-PW KBS Tour 120 S
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  • NoFancyUsername.NoFancyUsername. Members Posts: 474 ✭✭

    @Stuart_G said:

    @Golfbeat said:
    I just wonder then how people are hitting it further and further. Is it just improved swing mechanics and greater athleticism?

    Who's hitting it further and further? And where is the source of that data?

    Most, if not all amateurs can hit it further, with better swing mechanics firstly and of course being fitted properly. You'll find the average drive at your local club is around 220 yards, and that's being generous.
    So, if a golfer swings it 95mph and he's getting 220yds, what do you think would be the issue?

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,070 ✭✭
    edited Apr 11, 2019 9:21am #19

    @NoFancyUsername. said:
    Most, if not all amateurs can hit it further,

    Sorry, I see people saying that a lot - but I see very little data to actually support it, especially for amateur play. The USGA's and R+A's report is only really showing small gains - and that data is limited to the various professional tours and the increases are not inconsistent with the gains that are to be expected from improvements in fitness, swing biomechanics work, and even some ball improvements (spin control + aerodynamics).

    @NoFancyUsername. said:
    You'll find the average drive at your local club is around 220 yards, and that's being generous.

    Probably very generous - since we have a higher percentage of retirees at my club. But the topic is increases, not what the actual distance might be. And as far as increases go, I certainly haven't been seeing it myself :-) or for that matter in those around me at my club.

    @NoFancyUsername. said:
    So, if a golfer swings it 95mph and he's getting 220yds, what do you think would be the issue?

    Why do you think there is an issue in that which needs to be identified? Event the (very old) TM driver optimization charts are showing greater total distances than that for that swing speed - and 220 yds as a reasonable carry distance.

  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,203 ✭✭

    On the amateur level most people do not hit it further than even 20 years ago. However there's a some that have pulled away and do clock it really well. The curve of all is more spiked, the 5-10% have taken it to new levels with modern driver but the gains of many is more muted. At least that's what I come across all the time at the range and the course.

  • FlyingLaw1FlyingLaw1 MOMembers Posts: 827 ✭✭

    Yup! My own example...
    In 2017 I got fit by a really good fitter for a Epic Subzero. Trackman, tons of shots with all different shafts, etc. etc. I was eventually fit for an Atmos Tour Black shaft with the heavy weight back and neutral on everything else.

    Yesterday my local course has a "Masters Kickoff party" and part of it is a Taylormade demo/fitting. I know one of the pros pretty well so they let me try out a few things afterward with the help of the Taylormade rep. After hitting tons of head/shaft/setup combinations I eventually settled on the Tour Head and the Atmos Black (can't remember the exact specs of the weights). According to Flightscope I hit the Taylormade exactly.... a half yard longer (on average).

    For irons it's probably even less important to have the newest and best IMO. Being fit properly into the proper type of irons (GI, Players, Etc.) is always going to be more important than having the latest. And yet.... So many golfers are willing to walk into a retail store and pay top dollar for what is new without even thinking of getting fit... Sigh

    GO DAWGS
  • ironcatironcat the cat Members Posts: 524 ✭✭
    edited Apr 11, 2019 7:44pm #22

    I've said it before on here, I am hugely sceptical of big distance gains and custom fitting / premium shafts.
    I've had several fittings over the years, sometimes with some really well respected fitters. I've had off the shelf drivers brought without any testing, fitted drivers, premium shafts etc etc and I have NEVER seen any noticeable distance or dispersion gain,only difference in how it feels.

    What I do believe in is placebo, and I think that's a massive part of better driving with a new club. Same with putting.

  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,645 ✭✭

    Driver tech has improved for some people, others it may not make a difference. Carbon Fiber allows for a lighter head and can allow for greater speeds. I hit my Callaway Rogue Sub Zero at least 15 yards longer than any other driver. But, the CoG is located a little more towards the heel and my mis-hits are toe biased...so consistency is an issue.

    The Ping G400Max has the most MOI of any driver from head-to-toe and sole-to-crown of any driver on the market. It's been measured on the GolfMechanix CoG machine as such. But, I can hit other drivers further.

    So, if I found a combination of the accuracy/consistency of the G400 Max and the distance of the Rogue SubZero...I'd be in great shape. But until I can...I'll stick with the G400 Max.

    The shaft technology hasn't really changed much. TPT shafts are basically at more consistent and stringent bend profile tolerances, but it's not like being off by a few more cpm's in certain parts of the shaft will make for a worse shaft. Fujikura's Ventus shaft is interesting though as they had the very stiff tip with a soft butt section Evolution IV shaft and with the Ventus it appears to be like that on steroids which hits a market of softer loading players that can still generate quality club speed and who need that right launch/spin combo to get the most out of their drives.

    The only other thing is that titanium drivers...yes, even titanium drivers...can go a little soft after years of hitting them and their smash factor can lower.

    But in the end, don't be surprised if your old driver still works best...but don't be surprised if some of the modern drivers work much better as well. Depends on the fit.

    RH

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,070 ✭✭
    edited Apr 13, 2019 9:36am #24

    @ironcat said:
    I've said it before on here, I am hugely sceptical of big distance gains and custom fitting / premium shafts.
    I've had several fittings over the years, sometimes with some really well respected fitters. I've had off the shelf drivers brought without any testing, fitted drivers, premium shafts etc etc and I have NEVER seen any noticeable distance or dispersion gain,only difference in how it feels.

    What I do believe in is placebo, and I think that's a massive part of better driving with a new club. Same with putting.

    The problem with most peoples thought process in regards to fitting is that they do not understand that the gains do not really come from how good or advanced the new stuff is - but rather thy mostly come from how badly their old stuff fit them. So yes, large gains really do happen - they are just not things that everyone should expect - especially those that have gone through the process before and at least are in the right ball park for their swing.

  • ironcatironcat the cat Members Posts: 524 ✭✭

    @Stuart_G said:

    @ironcat said:
    I've said it before on here, I am hugely sceptical of big distance gains and custom fitting / premium shafts.
    I've had several fittings over the years, sometimes with some really well respected fitters. I've had off the shelf drivers brought without any testing, fitted drivers, premium shafts etc etc and I have NEVER seen any noticeable distance or dispersion gain,only difference in how it feels.

    What I do believe in is placebo, and I think that's a massive part of better driving with a new club. Same with putting.

    The problem with most peoples thought process in regards to fitting is that they do not understand that the gains do not really come from how good or advanced the new stuff is - but rather thy mostly come from how badly their old stuff fit them. So yes, large gains really do happen - they are just not things that everyone should expect - especially those that have gone through the process before and at least are in the right ball park for their swing.

    I agree but I think this only matters to people with abnormal swing characteristics, such as huge lag, very fast/slow swing speed etc. For 95% of us manufacturers are designing their retail clubs to work as best as possible right off the shelf which is why many don't see a massive benefit in custom fitting.

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,070 ✭✭
    edited Apr 19, 2019 12:23pm #26

    @ironcat said:
    I agree but I think this only matters to people with abnormal swing characteristics, such as huge lag, very fast/slow swing speed etc. For 95% of us manufacturers are designing their retail clubs to work as best as possible right off the shelf which is why many don't see a massive benefit in custom fitting.

    Well, that's really a separate issue but No, stock configurations are only chosen for distance because that's what sells, not accuracy or consistency or how far offline they don't go. Lighter and longer shafts - on the hope that the buyer will only notice that 1 in 5 shot that they actually manage to hit the center of the face and all the other bad results were only their fault and not made worse by the equipment. But even that's assuming the sales folks actually are good enough to get the player in the right loft. There is a lot more to fitting than that. The percentage of people who really do fit well into the stock set-ups is more like 1% - if that.

  • ironcatironcat the cat Members Posts: 524 ✭✭

    @Stuart_G said:

    There is a lot more to fitting than that. The percentage of people who really do fit well into the stock set-ups is more like 1% - if that.

    Well in my own experience having been fit and many players I know, none of them have ever seen any significant gains in distance or accuracy this doesn't ring true at all. Off the shelf is just as good as custom fit 90% of the time. I've seen the numbers and seen the real-world results. No difference.

    When someone comes back with a $500 shaft and a new head I know it will put them in the same places as their previous off-the-shelf club time and time again. Seen it so many times.

    And this is a range of handicaps, from scratch to 22.

    The only exception I have seen to this is a guy who swings is 120+ and a guy who is like 6ft 5 who was playing regular length irons.

  • North TexasNorth Texas Members Posts: 4,108 ✭✭
    edited Apr 19, 2019 2:22pm #28

    @ironcat said:

    @Stuart_G said:

    There is a lot more to fitting than that. The percentage of people who really do fit well into the stock set-ups is more like 1% - if that.

    Well in my own experience having been fit and many players I know, none of them have ever seen any significant gains in distance or accuracy this doesn't ring true at all. Off the shelf is just as good as custom fit 90% of the time. I've seen the numbers and seen the real-world results. No difference.

    When someone comes back with a $500 shaft and a new head I know it will put them in the same places as their previous off-the-shelf club time and time again. Seen it so many times.

    And this is a range of handicaps, from scratch to 22.

    The only exception I have seen to this is a guy who swings is 120+ and a guy who is like 6ft 5 who was playing regular length irons.

    In my own experience, this is very accurate. And I would add. that in addition to not seeing any significant gains in distance or accuracy, I have not seen any better scores either. And, ironcat says, my experience includes myself.

    Post edited by North Texas on
  • TheCityGameTheCityGame Traj like Minaj Members Posts: 15,226 ✭✭

    A few years ago, I was "fit". Guy basically watched me swing, checked my swing speed with a little radar (not a trackman). He goes, "OK. I'll let the gremlins in my head turn it over for a few days."

    He eventually recommended a (UST Axivcore) shaft and told me to get any head I wanted. Got a Ping G25 as I like looking at Pings. And it was an improvement over my glued G15.

    ANYWAY, last year there were Titleist fitters with trackman at my range. I hit a few with mine for baseline. They gave me a new head to compare. Worse. Changed the loft. Worse. Changed a shaft. Worse. Eventually the guy goes, "just stick with the Ping".

    If you actually care about scoring and not new equipment and not chasing numbers, you can just step off the treadmill any time you want and start committing to your driver. Always remember, they're not selling you new drivers. They're selling you anxiety that your driver isn't good enough.

    (that said, I am intrigued by the G-400 Max and might look at one at the end of this golf season.)

    Ping G25 10.5º
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,070 ✭✭
    edited Apr 19, 2019 5:53pm #30

    @ironcat said:
    Well in my own experience having been fit and many players I know, none of them have ever seen any significant gains in distance or accuracy this doesn't ring true at all. Off the shelf is just as good as custom fit 90% of the time. I've seen the numbers and seen the real-world results. No difference.

    When someone comes back with a $500 shaft and a new head I know it will put them in the same places as their previous off-the-shelf club time and time again. Seen it so many times.

    And this is a range of handicaps, from scratch to 22.

    The only exception I have seen to this is a guy who swings is 120+ and a guy who is like 6ft 5 who was playing regular length irons.

    If you read the post a bit more carefully, it's pretty clear I wasn't talking about distance with respect to the fit being poor.

    And not a day goes by on this forum where we see folks come asking for help because the stock spec drivers are causing them problems with impact consistency, accuracy, control, managing spin or launch, and more. If the fittings you've seen haven't helped improve over the performance with stock specs it likely wasn't much of a fitting. How much time did they spend trying out different playing lengths? How much time with different shaft weights? different swing weights? - was any lead tape used?, did they have the proper grip size available to use during the testing? How many different shaft stiffness profiles were tested? How closely did the fitter pay attention to face impact? Did the LM even actually measure club data or just ball data? Going to a retail store and rotating through a few different heads or even shafts out of the fitting cart is not a real fitting. So for those "fittings", I wouldn't' expect to see much improvement either.

  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,437 ✭✭

    I'm the opposite. Tried numerous stock options, always had a latest gen head (z785 was my pre fitting gamer). Post fitting I've never driven the ball so we'll. Longer and much straighter. Used to have snap hooks/next zip code blocks. Now it's either straight or a fall off fade. Huge ball speed gains now that I'm not afraid of the big miss

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