Besides the obvious, did I really mess up here?

Playing a par 5 on Saturday with water in play off the tee and then on the right. Heavily bunkered green in front as well. Playing a KSig with a red stripe so it's easy to identify the ball (foreshadowing).

Hit a nice drive and then a 5 wood which leaked right and possibly rolled into the water. After looking I saw a ball with a red stripe in the water. Fished it out, dried it off, dropped it from knee height and then proceeded to hit a 9 iron straight but short into the bunker in front of the green. As I looked for the ball in the bunker, the only ball that was there turned out to be a Taylormade, with you guessed it, a red stripe. It seemed that I possibly fished the wrong ball out of the water and due to 100% my fault, possibly played the next shot with the TM. Because I couldn't be 100% certain that I played the TM and not a KSig, I treated it as a lost ball. From there I dropped from knee height, hit it on to the green and 2 putted.

So here's my question. What was the score for the hole?

My take was as follows:

1 - drive

2 - 5w

3 - PS

4 - 9i

5 - 6 - Lost ball (dropped and played it from where I thought it was which was the TM ball)

7 - pitch on

8 & 9 - putts

The question was if the TM ball was an illegal substitution which would be another stroke. My understanding of the new rule is that you can change the ball coming out of a penalty area but the fact that I didn't know for sure if that was the ball I played caused the lost ball situation. Is this right? Thank you as always.

When you say "From there I dropped from knee height" was that at the Penalty area, or from an E-5 relief spot or from there the 5w was played?

You're likely correct about not being able to ID your ball...that is unless you have KVC that it's in the PA...just wasn't sure how you proceeded from there

There was nothing wrong in substituting a ball when taking relief from the Penalty Area. But where did you drop the 2nd time? Did you go back to the spot you played your ball into the bunker?

> @Vindog said:

> When you say "From there I dropped from knee height" was that at the Penalty area, or from an E-5 relief spot or from there the 5w was played?

>

> You're like correct about not being able to ID your ball...that is unless you have KVC that it's in the PA...just wasn't sure how you proceeded from there

The first time was at the point where it appeared the ball went into the water. There was no other place the ball could have been other than the water.

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> There was nothing wrong in substituting a ball when taking relief from the Penalty Area. But where did you drop the 2nd time? Did you go back to the spot you played your ball into the bunker?

The second time I dropped in the bunker and took the 2 shot penalty for the lost ball as opposed to going back to where I played the last shot from.

But even if you took S&D you can substitute your ball, so there would be no additional PS there

> @DavePelz4 said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > There was nothing wrong in substituting a ball when taking relief from the Penalty Area. But where did you drop the 2nd time? Did you go back to the spot you played your ball into the bunker?

>

> The second time I dropped in the bunker and took the 2 shot penalty for the lost ball as opposed to going back to where I played the last shot from.

I am afraid you were not allowed to drop your ball in the bunker. Thus you played from a wrong place and earned 2 PS more. I assume it was not a serious breach if LR E-5 was in force. If it was not you committed a serious breach and would have had to return to the place where you hit your ball into the bunker from.

I'd had given some serious consideration as to whether I had virtual certainty that the TM ball in the bunker was actualy the one I hit after taking the PA drop, and likely would have played on from there. The similar red stripe, the known failure to check the ball fished out of the water and the likelihood that the way the ball would have gotten in the bunker was by my preceding shot sounds pretty convincing.

> @Sawgrass said:

> I'd had given some serious consideration as to whether I had virtual certainty that the TM ball in the bunker was actualy the one I hit after taking the PA drop, and likely would have played on from there. The similar red stripe, the known failure to check the ball fished out of the water and the likelihood that the way the ball would have gotten in the bunker was by my preceding shot sounds pretty convincing.

Agree

After I read through all the posts carefully I was wondering why the "lost ball" was taken it at the bunker. Seems like the only lost ball confusion would have occurred at the water, but since KVC was satisfied it was moot at that point.

Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

1 - tee shot

2 - 5w shot into penalty area

3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

4 - 9i shot into bunker

5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

7 - pitch on

8-9 - two putts

> @Sawgrass said:

> I'd had given some serious consideration as to whether I had virtual certainty that the TM ball in the bunker was actualy the one I hit after taking the PA drop, and likely would have played on from there. The similar red stripe, the known failure to check the ball fished out of the water and the likelihood that the way the ball would have gotten in the bunker was by my preceding shot sounds pretty convincing.

This was one of our groups competitive rounds using the Stableford format. It was highly unlikely I'd hole the bunker shot and pick up 1 point for a net bogey and I was pretty sure after applying ESC it wasn't going to impact my index going forward (yeah, did think of all those things in about 15 seconds). While it was most likely the ball played with the 9i, I still wasn't even 90% sure and my playing partners couldn't say with certainty that was where the ball ended up. It seemed the safest choice and didn't deter from anyone other than me.

> @rogolf said:

> Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> 1 - tee shot

> 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> 7 - pitch on

> 8-9 - two putts

We got to the same answer...just a different way. Must be new math?

> @rogolf said:

> Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> 1 - tee shot

> 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> 7 - pitch on

> 8-9 - two putts

Would that be the same if he intended to use S&D but dropped a ball in the bunker?

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > 1 - tee shot

> > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > 7 - pitch on

> > 8-9 - two putts

>

> Would that be the same if he intended to use S&D but dropped a ball in the bunker?

I didn't see any mention of s&d in the original poster's posts. Why would he want to do s&d? (Maybe the model LR E-5 was in effect?)

DavePelz...after reading your comments in the loooooong Ksig thread......I sure hope it was the K3 you lost and not one of the KSig4's. :)

> @Shilgy said:

> DavePelz...after reading your comments in the loooooong Ksig thread......I sure hope it was the K3 you lost and not one of the KSig4's. :)

Alas Shilgy, it was a KSig. I'm now down to 8 double dozen of them. Sigh.

> @rogolf said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > 1 - tee shot

> > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > 7 - pitch on

> > > 8-9 - two putts

> >

> > Would that be the same if he intended to use S&D but dropped a ball in the bunker?

> I didn't see any mention of s&d in the original poster's posts. Why would he want to do s&d? (Maybe the model LR E-5 was in effect?)

>

He said he treated it as a lost ball.

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > > 1 - tee shot

> > > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > > 7 - pitch on

> > > > 8-9 - two putts

> > >

> > > Would that be the same if he intended to use S&D but dropped a ball in the bunker?

> > I didn't see any mention of s&d in the original poster's posts. Why would he want to do s&d? (Maybe the model LR E-5 was in effect?)

> >

>

> He said he treated it as a lost ball.

He didn't proceed correctly for a lost ball (unless E-5 was in effect). My ruling was based on his actions, not his intentions. I will normally try and fit the player's actions into Rules which can be applied to those actions - often minimizes the player's "pain".

> @rogolf said:

> Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> 1 - tee shot

> 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> 7 - pitch on

> 8-9 - two putts

This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

> @antip said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > 1 - tee shot

> > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > 7 - pitch on

> > 8-9 - two putts

>

> This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

> In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

> IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

The original poster said (later) that there was no other place for the ball to be but in the water; I took that to mean KVC that his second shot went into the water. When he took the red-striped ball from the water and dropped it under Rule 17, it became his ball in play (even if it had been a "stray" ball, it's the one he dropped under Rule 17). He then said he hit the dropped ball straight into the bunker which is where he noticed that he had changed balls (as permitted by Rule 17). The only doubt that I have is where did he drop after he "treated it like a lost ball"?

I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

> @rogolf said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > 1 - tee shot

> > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > 7 - pitch on

> > > 8-9 - two putts

> >

> > This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

> > In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

> > IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

> The original poster said (later) that there was no other place for the ball to be but in the water; I took that to mean KVC that his second shot went into the water. When he took the red-striped ball from the water and dropped it under Rule 17, it became his ball in play (even if it had been a "stray" ball, it's the one he dropped under Rule 17). He then said he hit the dropped ball straight into the bunker which is where he noticed that he had changed balls (as permitted by Rule 17). The only doubt that I have is where did he drop after he "treated it like a lost ball"?

> I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

>

I'm not raising KVC for the water shot but the ball in the bunker. Dave's later post attached the 90 per cent certainty to the ball in the bunker being the ball hit with the 9i from beside the PA. That is the basis for me updating my original ruling (which precisely matched yours).

> @antip said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > > 1 - tee shot

> > > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > > 7 - pitch on

> > > > 8-9 - two putts

> > >

> > > This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

> > > In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

> > > IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

> > The original poster said (later) that there was no other place for the ball to be but in the water; I took that to mean KVC that his second shot went into the water. When he took the red-striped ball from the water and dropped it under Rule 17, it became his ball in play (even if it had been a "stray" ball, it's the one he dropped under Rule 17). He then said he hit the dropped ball straight into the bunker which is where he noticed that he had changed balls (as permitted by Rule 17). The only doubt that I have is where did he drop after he "treated it like a lost ball"?

> > I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

> >

>

> I'm not raising KVC for the water shot but the ball in the bunker. Dave's later post attached the 90 per cent certainty to the ball in the bunker being the ball hit with the 9i from beside the PA. That is the basis for me updating my original ruling (which precisely matched yours).

I don't think KVC enters into identifying the ball found as the ball you played, ie, I don't see mention of KVC in Rule 7. He did indicate that he removed a ball with a red stripe from the water and played that ball straight into the bunker, finding the ball with a red stripe in the bunker, just not the brand that he had played for his second shot (which is now irrelevant).

If DP4 knew the rules better, he could have saved himself a couple penalty shots. o:)

Now, I know. I could have made the same mistake.

> @rogolf said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > > > 1 - tee shot

> > > > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > > > 7 - pitch on

> > > > > 8-9 - two putts

> > > >

> > > > This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

> > > > In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

> > > > IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

> > > The original poster said (later) that there was no other place for the ball to be but in the water; I took that to mean KVC that his second shot went into the water. When he took the red-striped ball from the water and dropped it under Rule 17, it became his ball in play (even if it had been a "stray" ball, it's the one he dropped under Rule 17). He then said he hit the dropped ball straight into the bunker which is where he noticed that he had changed balls (as permitted by Rule 17). The only doubt that I have is where did he drop after he "treated it like a lost ball"?

> > > I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

> > >

> >

> > I'm not raising KVC for the water shot but the ball in the bunker. Dave's later post attached the 90 per cent certainty to the ball in the bunker being the ball hit with the 9i from beside the PA. That is the basis for me updating my original ruling (which precisely matched yours).

> I don't think KVC enters into identifying the ball found as the ball you played, ie, I don't see mention of KVC in Rule 7. He did indicate that he removed a ball with a red stripe from the water and played that ball straight into the bunker, finding the ball with a red stripe in the bunker, just not the brand that he had played for his second shot (which is now irrelevant).

>

Here's what he said about the action he took in the bunker: "While it was most likely the ball played with the 9i, I still wasn't even 90% sure and my playing partners couldn't say with certainty that was where the ball ended up." For me then, the ruling must be amended. He has failed to identify his ball in play (the ball played with the 9i from near the PA) and has therefore lifted a stray ball and put it in play. He has therefore taken S&D, subbed a ball and played from a wrong place and it is a serious breach. I was using the term KVC loosely (and inappropriately), but that does not change the (updated) facts - the player has simply subbed a ball without identifying the original ball. I also agree that the language in that updated post is not consistent with the earlier language - so I updated my ruling to be consistent with the updated information.

IMO we very frequently use KVC to identify a ball, irrespective of the fact that the rules don’t expressly state that we should. If you remove the occasions when the identification of a ball is Known as being ours, we’re frequently left with the assumption (the virtual certainty) that it’s our ball. If I hit one over a rise into the center of the fairway, and I get there and see my brand/number/modest mark on the ball, I am essentially using virtual certainty to identify it as mine. While it sure as hell looks like mine, it might possibly be a ball which is similar in looks lying fairly near where my ball plugged.

Call it KVC, call it what you will, but if Dave failed to carefully look at the ball he dropped from the penalty area, then knew he hit it in the bunker, and there was only one ball in the bunker and it appeared to be the ball he hit there (say, same color, same line drawn on it) IMO he has identified it as his. (I now understand that in this real story he was not sure he hit the dropped ball in the bunker, which kind of ruins things — I’m just making a hypothetical point.)

> @antip said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > > > > 1 - tee shot

> > > > > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > > > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > > > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > > > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > > > > 7 - pitch on

> > > > > > 8-9 - two putts

> > > > >

> > > > > This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

> > > > > In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

> > > > > IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

> > > > The original poster said (later) that there was no other place for the ball to be but in the water; I took that to mean KVC that his second shot went into the water. When he took the red-striped ball from the water and dropped it under Rule 17, it became his ball in play (even if it had been a "stray" ball, it's the one he dropped under Rule 17). He then said he hit the dropped ball straight into the bunker which is where he noticed that he had changed balls (as permitted by Rule 17). The only doubt that I have is where did he drop after he "treated it like a lost ball"?

> > > > I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm not raising KVC for the water shot but the ball in the bunker. Dave's later post attached the 90 per cent certainty to the ball in the bunker being the ball hit with the 9i from beside the PA. That is the basis for me updating my original ruling (which precisely matched yours).

> > I don't think KVC enters into identifying the ball found as the ball you played, ie, I don't see mention of KVC in Rule 7. He did indicate that he removed a ball with a red stripe from the water and played that ball straight into the bunker, finding the ball with a red stripe in the bunker, just not the brand that he had played for his second shot (which is now irrelevant).

> >

>

> Here's what he said about the action he took in the bunker: "While it was most likely the ball played with the 9i, I still wasn't even 90% sure and my playing partners couldn't say with certainty that was where the ball ended up." For me then, the ruling must be amended. **He has failed to identify his ball in play** (the ball played with the 9i from near the PA) and has therefore lifted a stray ball and put it in play. **He has therefore taken S&D**, subbed a ball and played from a wrong place and it is a serious breach. I was using the term KVC loosely (and inappropriately), but that does not change the (updated) facts - the player has simply subbed a ball without identifying the original ball. I also agree that the language in that updated post is not consistent with the earlier language - so I updated my ruling to be consistent with the updated information.

Where did he take S&D ?

He dropped out of the PA. The dropped ball, now the ball in play, had a red stripe on it.

They all saw it go towards the bunker. Presumably, nobody found a(nother) ball with a red stripe anywhere near there in or out of the bunker. He found a red stripe ball in the bunker. Is that NOT enough for him to identify it as his ? Or does he need to know brand, model, number, side stamp, more markings ? What is enough ?

Seems to me, unless the above is NOT enough to identify the ball as his, the only thing he did wrong was pick up and drop the ball in the bunker.

And if that's NOT enough to identify the ball he THEN has a lost ball and THEN has to take S&D and go back near the PA where he played that shot from.

Not so ?

> @nsxguy said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > > > > > 1 - tee shot

> > > > > > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > > > > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > > > > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > > > > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > > > > > 7 - pitch on

> > > > > > > 8-9 - two putts

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

> > > > > > In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

> > > > > > IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

> > > > > The original poster said (later) that there was no other place for the ball to be but in the water; I took that to mean KVC that his second shot went into the water. When he took the red-striped ball from the water and dropped it under Rule 17, it became his ball in play (even if it had been a "stray" ball, it's the one he dropped under Rule 17). He then said he hit the dropped ball straight into the bunker which is where he noticed that he had changed balls (as permitted by Rule 17). The only doubt that I have is where did he drop after he "treated it like a lost ball"?

> > > > > I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm not raising KVC for the water shot but the ball in the bunker. Dave's later post attached the 90 per cent certainty to the ball in the bunker being the ball hit with the 9i from beside the PA. That is the basis for me updating my original ruling (which precisely matched yours).

> > > I don't think KVC enters into identifying the ball found as the ball you played, ie, I don't see mention of KVC in Rule 7. He did indicate that he removed a ball with a red stripe from the water and played that ball straight into the bunker, finding the ball with a red stripe in the bunker, just not the brand that he had played for his second shot (which is now irrelevant).

> > >

> >

> > Here's what he said about the action he took in the bunker: "While it was most likely the ball played with the 9i, I still wasn't even 90% sure and my playing partners couldn't say with certainty that was where the ball ended up." For me then, the ruling must be amended. **He has failed to identify his ball in play** (the ball played with the 9i from near the PA) and has therefore lifted a stray ball and put it in play. **He has therefore taken S&D**, subbed a ball and played from a wrong place and it is a serious breach. I was using the term KVC loosely (and inappropriately), but that does not change the (updated) facts - the player has simply subbed a ball without identifying the original ball. I also agree that the language in that updated post is not consistent with the earlier language - so I updated my ruling to be consistent with the updated information.

>

> Where did he take S&D ?

>

> He dropped out of the PA. The dropped ball, now the ball in play, had a red stripe on it.

>

> They all saw it go towards the bunker. Presumably, nobody found a(nother) ball with a red stripe anywhere near there in or out of the bunker. He found a red stripe ball in the bunker. Is that NOT enough for him to identify it as his ? Or does he need to know brand, model, number, side stamp, more markings ? What is enough ?

>

> Seems to me, unless the above is NOT enough to identify the ball as his, the only thing he did wrong was pick up and drop the ball in the bunker.

>

> And if that's NOT enough to identify the ball he THEN has a lost ball and THEN has to take S&D and go back near the PA where he played that shot from.

>

> Not so ?

That can only be answered by DavePelz4. Was it the ball you played from next to the PA? If yes, it's 2SP for lifting ball in play and not replacing. If no, it is 3SP and serious breach. My post was demonstrates the implications of the no answer. His first post implied same ball, a later post implied may well not have been. I am not advocating here, I am identifying how the rules treat either answer.

My reference to S&D is how the RBs guide us (see p427 of the Official Guide, and comparable wording in 19.2/5) if a player lifts, drops and plays a ball that is not his and does so without knowing where the original ball is.

> @antip said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > > > > > > 1 - tee shot

> > > > > > > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > > > > > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > > > > > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > > > > > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > > > > > > 7 - pitch on

> > > > > > > > 8-9 - two putts

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

> > > > > > > In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

> > > > > > > IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

> > > > > > The original poster said (later) that there was no other place for the ball to be but in the water; I took that to mean KVC that his second shot went into the water. When he took the red-striped ball from the water and dropped it under Rule 17, it became his ball in play (even if it had been a "stray" ball, it's the one he dropped under Rule 17). He then said he hit the dropped ball straight into the bunker which is where he noticed that he had changed balls (as permitted by Rule 17). The only doubt that I have is where did he drop after he "treated it like a lost ball"?

> > > > > > I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not raising KVC for the water shot but the ball in the bunker. Dave's later post attached the 90 per cent certainty to the ball in the bunker being the ball hit with the 9i from beside the PA. That is the basis for me updating my original ruling (which precisely matched yours).

> > > > I don't think KVC enters into identifying the ball found as the ball you played, ie, I don't see mention of KVC in Rule 7. He did indicate that he removed a ball with a red stripe from the water and played that ball straight into the bunker, finding the ball with a red stripe in the bunker, just not the brand that he had played for his second shot (which is now irrelevant).

> > > >

> > >

> > > Here's what he said about the action he took in the bunker: "While it was most likely the ball played with the 9i, I still wasn't even 90% sure and my playing partners couldn't say with certainty that was where the ball ended up." For me then, the ruling must be amended. **He has failed to identify his ball in play** (the ball played with the 9i from near the PA) and has therefore lifted a stray ball and put it in play. **He has therefore taken S&D**, subbed a ball and played from a wrong place and it is a serious breach. I was using the term KVC loosely (and inappropriately), but that does not change the (updated) facts - the player has simply subbed a ball without identifying the original ball. I also agree that the language in that updated post is not consistent with the earlier language - so I updated my ruling to be consistent with the updated information.

> >

> > Where did he take S&D ?

> >

> > He dropped out of the PA. The dropped ball, now the ball in play, had a red stripe on it.

> >

> > They all saw it go towards the bunker. Presumably, nobody found a(nother) ball with a red stripe anywhere near there in or out of the bunker. He found a red stripe ball in the bunker. Is that NOT enough for him to identify it as his ? Or does he need to know brand, model, number, side stamp, more markings ? What is enough ?

> >

> > Seems to me, unless the above is NOT enough to identify the ball as his, the only thing he did wrong was pick up and drop the ball in the bunker.

> >

> > And if that's NOT enough to identify the ball he THEN has a lost ball and THEN has to take S&D and go back near the PA where he played that shot from.

> >

> > Not so ?

>

> That can only be answered by DavePelz4. Was it the ball you played from next to the PA? If yes, it's 2SP for lifting ball in play and not replacing. If no, it is 3SP and serious breach. My post was demonstrates the implications of the no answer. His first post implied same ball, a later post implied may well not have been. I am not advocating here, I am identifying how the rules treat either answer.

>

> My reference to S&D is how the RBs guide us (see p427 of the Official Guide, and comparable wording in 19.2/5) if a player lifts, drops and plays a ball that is not his and does so without knowing where the original ball is.

As mentioned in the title of the thread, I knew there was a chance I really messed up which appears to be the case. For clarification, while it was logical I fished the wrong ball out of the water and then used that ball to hit the shot into the bunker, I just wasn't sure enough to play it as such. Had something miraculous happened like holing the bunker shot, I wouldn't have felt right.

Many lessons learned in terms of insuring the ball I'm about to play truly is the ball used on the previous shot and hopefully if someone encounters a comparable situation, they'll learn from my many mistakes. Thanks to all for the insights and time invested in analyzing/responding.

@DavePelz4 Was new local rule E-5 in effect, and that is why you dropped in the bunker with 2 stroke penalty for lost ball ?

> @HitEmTrue said:

> @DavePelz4 Was new local rule E-5 in effect, and that is why you dropped in the bunker with 2 stroke penalty for lost ball ?

Yes.