Fastest part of golf swing

So... Did anyone else catch the video of Koepka's swing where the announcers were saying that the fastest part of his swing was well before hitting the ball? They then went on to say that those who hit the ball the longest get the fastest part of their swing closer to the ball.

That's only because the golf club slows down after it makes contact with the ball. No one's club speeds up after hitting the ball.

Thats not what Kostis said

The cuss word at the end.

Sounds to me like both could be true? The contact should slow down the club. But the club could be slowing down before impact..

Is it even possible to slow down right before impact unless you’re really making an effort to decelerate?

Got to be plenty of GEARS data out there on that. That's the best source I'm aware of to validate it or not.

But considering everything else peaks before impact in the kinematic sequence, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

A lot of amateur golfers, me too occasionally, expend too much energy too early in the swing. I’ve seen shows several times on the Golf Channel where they have discussed the topic. They also call it over-swinging. I catch myself trying to swing too fast early in my swing and it’s a negative. The physics says that you should not only reach your maximum swing speed just as you are hitting the ball, but you should also be at your maximum acceleration at that point. You can swing about 110 mph and have different results because at the maximum acceleration point, you transfer more momentum into the ball than if you’re already at 110 and not accelerating as you hit it. I may sound a bit like BAD but the physics says exactly that.

> @Kevlar10 said:

> The physics says that you should not only reach your maximum swing speed just as you are hitting the ball, but you should also be at your maximum acceleration at that point.

Sorry, the physics doesn't say anything of the sort. And it's the biomechanics (what the body is capable of and how it's used) that will dictate the limits/requirements, not physics.

I once believed that one should accelerate the club through impact reaching maximum speed after the ball is struck. Having been show data that indicates that all golfers actually decelerate prior to impact I now believe one should imagine accelerating through the ball to keep deceleration to a minimum. It's feel not reality.

Steve

Your hands reach max speed when the get to about the trail thigh in the downswing. Then everything slows down into impact. Fujikura measures this data and other data similar to this thru their ENSO machine to assist in fitting golfers for shafts. I can't remember what the actual hand speeds are, but let's say you have 2 players that have a 60 mph hand speed at impact. But, if one goes from say 90 mph when the hands are at their peak speed and then 60 mph...they would be fitted for a different shaft than the person that goes from 70 mph peak speed to 60 mph at impact.

RH

> @RichieHunt said:

> Your hands reach max speed when the get to about the trail thigh in the downswing. Then everything slows down into impact. Fujikura measures this data and other data similar to this thru their ENSO machine to assist in fitting golfers for shafts. I can't remember what the actual hand speeds are, but let's say you have 2 players that have a 60 mph hand speed at impact. But, if one goes from say 90 mph when the hands are at their peak speed and then 60 mph...they would be fitted for a different shaft than the person that goes from 70 mph peak speed to 60 mph at impact.

Are you claiming that 60 mph of hand speed at any point in the swing, or are you just using those numbers for illustration of your point? I have been given to believe that even the longest hitters don't move their hands nearly that fast. Have I been misinformed?

Steve

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> RH

> @juststeve said:

> I once believed that one should accelerate the club through impact reaching maximum speed after the ball is struck. Having been show data that indicates that all golfers actually decelerate prior to impact I now believe one should imagine accelerating through the ball to keep deceleration to a minimum. It's feel not reality.

>

> Steve

this is what we've been told. amateurs waste their speed before the ball..whiles good players have more speed after the ball. like hearing the whoosh after impact....this new evidence is going to create a whole lot of over the toppers. ,,more than before because they won't shift their weight properly first. first.

> @Man_O_War said:

> > @juststeve said:

> > I once believed that one should accelerate the club through impact reaching maximum speed after the ball is struck. Having been show data that indicates that all golfers actually decelerate prior to impact I now believe one should imagine accelerating through the ball to keep deceleration to a minimum. It's feel not reality.

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> > Steve

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> this is what we've been told. amateurs waste their speed before the ball..whiles good players have more speed after the ball. like hearing the whoosh after impact....this new evidence is going to create a whole lot of over the toppers. ,,more than before because they won't shift their weight properly first. first.

>

Nobody has more speed after hitting the ball

> @RichieHunt said:

> Your hands reach max speed when the get to about the trail thigh in the downswing. Then everything slows down into impact. Fujikura measures this data and other data similar to this thru their ENSO machine to assist in fitting golfers for shafts. I can't remember what the actual hand speeds are, but let's say you have 2 players that have a 60 mph hand speed at impact. But, if one goes from say 90 mph when the hands are at their peak speed and then 60 mph...they would be fitted for a different shaft than the person that goes from 70 mph peak speed to 60 mph at impact.

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> RH

The hands can be slowing down while the clubhead is still accelerating. The hands slowing down doesn’t mean the clubhead is slowing down.

Sounds like no one here knows anything, so I'll add mine.

The clubhead slows down right before hitting the ground an inch behind the ball for most golfers

> @trilerian said:

> So... Did anyone else catch the video of Koepka's swing where the announcers were saying that the fastest part of his swing was well before hitting the ball? They then went on to say that those who hit the ball the longest get the fastest part of their swing closer to the ball.

Obviously, most people posting here didn't see the video you are referring too. Peter Kostis narrated and showed how Koepka's max swing speed was with the club a good 1.5' or so behind the ball; there was a loss of 6 mph between max speed and impact speed. This totally makes sense from a club fitting standpoint because dynamic loft is generated at impact when the shaft bends forward at impact; the shaft loads and bends back, the max bend point being at the point of max speed, then as the club enters the hitting area and starts to slow down the shaft releases and the club head passes the centerline of the shaft and loft is added at impact.

> @Nessism said:

> Obviously, most people posting here didn't see the video you are referring too. Peter Kostis narrated and showed how Koepka's max swing speed was with the club a good 1.5' or so behind the ball; there was a loss of 6 mph between max speed and impact speed. This totally makes sense from a club fitting standpoint because dynamic loft is generated at impact when the shaft bends forward at impact; the shaft loads and bends back, **the max bend point being at the point of max speed**, then as the club enters the hitting area and starts to slow down the shaft releases and the club head passes the centerline of the shaft and loft is added at impact.

Just a nit-pick here - max bend or max loading of the shaft would occur when the max torque (max acceleration) is applied by the hands. That's generally going to be before max rotational velocity/speed. And the unloading of the shaft (after time of max load) itself will generally add some club head velocity as well.

But agree 100% that forward bend at impact means at least some deceleration of the head occurs before impact so max speed would also be prior to impact.

Even though I don't know much of anything about the swing, I understand the club stuff pretty well. Normally not the biggest fan of Kostis, but his commentary was generally sound, plenty of GEARS data as well as launch monitor data out there to support. I don't know what "system" they are using now supposably to measure all this stuff so I would question the accuracy of the numbers he gave though unless they are working off other data obtained beforhand and then claiming it was derrived from their "new" camera system.

> @Stuart_G said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > Obviously, most people posting here didn't see the video you are referring too. Peter Kostis narrated and showed how Koepka's max swing speed was with the club a good 1.5' or so behind the ball; there was a loss of 6 mph between max speed and impact speed. This totally makes sense from a club fitting standpoint because dynamic loft is generated at impact when the shaft bends forward at impact; the shaft loads and bends back, **the max bend point being at the point of max speed**, then as the club enters the hitting area and starts to slow down the shaft releases and the club head passes the centerline of the shaft and loft is added at impact.

>

> Just a nit-pick here - max bend or max loading of the shaft would occur when the max torque (max acceleration) is applied by the hands. That's generally going to be before max rotational velocity/speed. And the unloading of the shaft (after time of max load) itself will generally add some club head velocity as well.

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> But agree 100% that forward bend at impact means at least some deceleration of the head occurs before impact so max speed would also be prior to impact.

>

I knew someone would make this comment Stuart. ;) If a player has a quick transition at the top of the swing the point of max shaft loading may be at that point, but that's not really germain to the topic at hand so I left it out. The main point here is that the club is clearly slowing down as it enters the hitting area and this is perfectly normal.

> @Nessism said:

> I knew someone would make this comment Stuart. ;)

Glad not to disappoint :-)

I've posted these a few times...normally a few forum members that can't fathom the shaft not working like they thought it did implode shortly after. Videos are relative to the point that there is GEARS data that shows the decel points in the swing with measured data.

> @juststeve said:

> > @RichieHunt said:

> > Your hands reach max speed when the get to about the trail thigh in the downswing. Then everything slows down into impact. Fujikura measures this data and other data similar to this thru their ENSO machine to assist in fitting golfers for shafts. I can't remember what the actual hand speeds are, but let's say you have 2 players that have a 60 mph hand speed at impact. But, if one goes from say 90 mph when the hands are at their peak speed and then 60 mph...they would be fitted for a different shaft than the person that goes from 70 mph peak speed to 60 mph at impact.

>

> Are you claiming that 60 mph of hand speed at any point in the swing, or are you just using those numbers for illustration of your point? I have been given to believe that even the longest hitters don't move their hands nearly that fast. Have I been misinformed?

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> Steve

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I can't remember the specifics. But, IIRC they went into JB Holmes' hand speed and I remember 70 mph being used. I remember he generated a lot more hand speed than your normal golfer. I plan on going to Fujikura in the first week of May, so I'll ask again as to the specifics.

RH

> @Golfrnut said:

> I've posted these a few times...normally a few forum members that can't fathom the shaft not working like they thought it did implode shortly after. Videos are relative to the point that there is GEARS data that shows the decel points in the swing with measured data.

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Great videos!

Interesting about the different flexes altering where on the face the ball can hit, and that it can have an effect on club path.

The clubhead gets most of its speed by going up and down vertically, but there is a flat spot around the ball, therefore its going to have more speed before impact when it is still moving more vertically.

> @TTGolf77 said:

> The clubhead gets most of its speed by going up and down vertically, but there is a flat spot around the ball, therefore its going to have more speed before impact when it is still moving more vertically.

You're pretty far off the mark, like left field far....on cause and effect.

> @RichieHunt said:

> > @juststeve said:

> > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > Your hands reach max speed when the get to about the trail thigh in the downswing. Then everything slows down into impact. Fujikura measures this data and other data similar to this thru their ENSO machine to assist in fitting golfers for shafts. I can't remember what the actual hand speeds are, but let's say you have 2 players that have a 60 mph hand speed at impact. But, if one goes from say 90 mph when the hands are at their peak speed and then 60 mph...they would be fitted for a different shaft than the person that goes from 70 mph peak speed to 60 mph at impact.

> >

> > Are you claiming that 60 mph of hand speed at any point in the swing, or are you just using those numbers for illustration of your point? I have been given to believe that even the longest hitters don't move their hands nearly that fast. Have I been misinformed?

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> I can't remember the specifics. But, IIRC they went into JB Holmes' hand speed and I remember 70 mph being used. I remember he generated a lot more hand speed than your normal golfer. I plan on going to Fujikura in the first week of May, so I'll ask again as to the specifics.

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> RH

Cheetham has average peak mid hands speed at 22 mph and at impact around 17 mph in TPI's tour pro database. That would be a tremendous amount more not just a lot more.

http://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/the_linear_kinematic_sequence

> @glk said:

> > @RichieHunt said:

> > > @juststeve said:

> > > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > Your hands reach max speed when the get to about the trail thigh in the downswing. Then everything slows down into impact. Fujikura measures this data and other data similar to this thru their ENSO machine to assist in fitting golfers for shafts. I can't remember what the actual hand speeds are, but let's say you have 2 players that have a 60 mph hand speed at impact. But, if one goes from say 90 mph when the hands are at their peak speed and then 60 mph...they would be fitted for a different shaft than the person that goes from 70 mph peak speed to 60 mph at impact.

> > >

> > > Are you claiming that 60 mph of hand speed at any point in the swing, or are you just using those numbers for illustration of your point? I have been given to believe that even the longest hitters don't move their hands nearly that fast. Have I been misinformed?

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> > I can't remember the specifics. But, IIRC they went into JB Holmes' hand speed and I remember 70 mph being used. I remember he generated a lot more hand speed than your normal golfer. I plan on going to Fujikura in the first week of May, so I'll ask again as to the specifics.

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> Cheetham has average peak mid hands speed at 22 mph and at impact around 17 mph in TPI's tour pro database. That would be a tremendous amount more not just a lot more.

> http://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/the_linear_kinematic_sequence

22 mph is more consistent with what I understand but I don't know what the difference is between hand speed, and mid-hand speed. Can anyone help me understand the distinction?

Steve

> @juststeve said:

> > @glk said:

> > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > @juststeve said:

> > > > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > > Your hands reach max speed when the get to about the trail thigh in the downswing. Then everything slows down into impact. Fujikura measures this data and other data similar to this thru their ENSO machine to assist in fitting golfers for shafts. I can't remember what the actual hand speeds are, but let's say you have 2 players that have a 60 mph hand speed at impact. But, if one goes from say 90 mph when the hands are at their peak speed and then 60 mph...they would be fitted for a different shaft than the person that goes from 70 mph peak speed to 60 mph at impact.

> > > >

> > > > Are you claiming that 60 mph of hand speed at any point in the swing, or are you just using those numbers for illustration of your point? I have been given to believe that even the longest hitters don't move their hands nearly that fast. Have I been misinformed?

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> > > I can't remember the specifics. But, IIRC they went into JB Holmes' hand speed and I remember 70 mph being used. I remember he generated a lot more hand speed than your normal golfer. I plan on going to Fujikura in the first week of May, so I'll ask again as to the specifics.

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> > > RH

> > Cheetham has average peak mid hands speed at 22 mph and at impact around 17 mph in TPI's tour pro database. That would be a tremendous amount more not just a lot more.

> > http://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/the_linear_kinematic_sequence

>

> 22 mph is more consistent with what I understand but I don't know what the difference is between hand speed, and mid-hand speed. Can anyone help me understand the distinction?

>

> Steve

> @juststeve said:

> > @glk said:

> > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > @juststeve said:

> > > > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > > Your hands reach max speed when the get to about the trail thigh in the downswing. Then everything slows down into impact. Fujikura measures this data and other data similar to this thru their ENSO machine to assist in fitting golfers for shafts. I can't remember what the actual hand speeds are, but let's say you have 2 players that have a 60 mph hand speed at impact. But, if one goes from say 90 mph when the hands are at their peak speed and then 60 mph...they would be fitted for a different shaft than the person that goes from 70 mph peak speed to 60 mph at impact.

> > > >

> > > > Are you claiming that 60 mph of hand speed at any point in the swing, or are you just using those numbers for illustration of your point? I have been given to believe that even the longest hitters don't move their hands nearly that fast. Have I been misinformed?

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> > > I can't remember the specifics. But, IIRC they went into JB Holmes' hand speed and I remember 70 mph being used. I remember he generated a lot more hand speed than your normal golfer. I plan on going to Fujikura in the first week of May, so I'll ask again as to the specifics.

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> > > RH

> > Cheetham has average peak mid hands speed at 22 mph and at impact around 17 mph in TPI's tour pro database. That would be a tremendous amount more not just a lot more.

> > http://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/the_linear_kinematic_sequence

>

> 22 mph is more consistent with what I understand but I don't know what the difference is between hand speed, and mid-hand speed. Can anyone help me understand the distinction?

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> Steve

Hands are not parallel in the grip (right being lower then left for a righty) measurement systems pick a point to measure which is referred to as mid-hand.

Cheetham used AMM3D and in his PHD dissertation he talks about the system and how the sensors are attached and used to create a body model (at a summary level).

basically, it is the hand speed.

> @Stuart_G said:

> > @Kevlar10 said:

> > The physics says that you should not only reach your maximum swing speed just as you are hitting the ball, but you should also be at your maximum acceleration at that point.

>

> Sorry, the physics doesn't say anything of the sort. And it's the biomechanics (what the body is capable of and how it's used) that will dictate the limits/requirements, not physics.

>

>

I was not talking about the mechanics of the body during the swing, I am talking about the physics of the club head impacting the ball. If I was talking about the biomechanics of the swing, I would have said that you want to reach maximum torque at impact with the vector to the arc of the swing plane aligned with the desired direction of travel. Although I’m not a club designer, I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night and I am a bm engineer.