Hole No. 12 at ANGC

3jacker3jacker Members Posts: 1,004 ✭✭

A lot of drama here, as always. This hole got Tiger's playing partners, along with several other folks on the leader board all within a few minutes of one another. It changed the flow of the tournament and opened the door for TW to come through. My question about this hole is this: Why so many misses short? The best players in the world come up short FAR more often than go long. Seems odd, given that the penalty is more severe and then they are faced with the same shot. I know a bunker shot down to that narrow green with the creek behind is no fun. But at least it's a chance. Better than a sure dunking and 1 stroke penalty.

Is there something I'm missing? Or is it just a matter of it being the best choke hole in all of golfdom?

Callaway XR16 SubZero Aldila Rogue I/O 70X
TM V-Steel 4wd Protopype 80X
Callaway UT 18* KBS C-Taper X
Callaway Apex MB 4-PW KBS C-Taper X
Cleveland 52*/58* CG10 KBS C-Taper X
Sizemore XB-1
«13

Comments

  • MooMoo Members Posts: 319 ✭✭
    edited Apr 15, 2019 2:03pm #2

    When the pin is right, it's very difficult. And the landing area in front of the green on the right side is non-existent, so you have to reach the green or miss left and catch the bunker. While I'm not certain how much the wind was a factor this past Sunday, it has been a major factor in the past. I recall reading an article years ago about the bizarre wind pattern on 12 from the trees. It creates swirls and cross-currents.
    Look at this diagram of the hole. Every yard you go right equates to additional X (I don't know the value for X here) required in length. It's a tough hole.

    Driver Number One: Titleist 910 D2 with Diamana White
    Driver Number Two: Titleist 910 D3 with RIP Alpha
    Mizuno MP 54 P-4
    Rogue 3 wood with Evenflow Blue (so easy to hit high and long...Evenflow rules!)
    Epic 5 wood with Rogue Black
    Titleist 915 F 7 wood (the incredible Hedgehog...there is no turf that can stop the Hedgehog!)
    Miura 56 K
    Vokey gap and 62 M
    Ping Vault Ketsch 2.0
  • 3jacker3jacker Members Posts: 1,004 ✭✭

    Just seem though that on Sunday, and you feel your nuts in your throat and are unsure of the wind, aim for the 2 back bunkers and if you get lucky or catch it a little full-figured, you're on the green. If not, dump it out of the bunkers and move on with no worse than a 4.
    It just seems to be the most dangerous hole on that back side and the latest crop of players don't really seem to get that. A LOT of huge mistakes made here the last few years.

    Callaway XR16 SubZero Aldila Rogue I/O 70X
    TM V-Steel 4wd Protopype 80X
    Callaway UT 18* KBS C-Taper X
    Callaway Apex MB 4-PW KBS C-Taper X
    Cleveland 52*/58* CG10 KBS C-Taper X
    Sizemore XB-1
  • Cornwall1888Cornwall1888 Members Posts: 183 ✭✭

    The further right you go the further the carry, when a right hander slices it they usually lose some distance so that explains the water balls when the pin is in the right.

    They also don’t want to take too much club incase they pull it left and long which is also a horrible place to be.

    You also have the factor of the win swirling in that part of the course so unless you know the wing direction and hit it perfect it’s a very risky shot

    This is where tigers 20 years of Augusta experience came into play

  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,716 ✭✭

    These guys are computers when it comes to golf course management. If you visit the course it's a very unusual spot on the property. Lowest spot, the entire hole is "inside the ropes." Breaks down to a very small narrow landing. Swirly winds make it hard to predict. I thought Faldo's comment was money. If it matters hit it between the two bunkers. The sand shot can roll in, but I think you would have seen 4's and not 5's and a playoff had more players played it like Tiger.

  • Ronnie MundtRonnie Mundt Members Posts: 117 ✭✭

    That’s right; if there is a hint of win, every inch your ball moves to the right means it also needs to be covering more ground at the same time, which is difficult if you are hitting the high fade like these players do. High fade tends to shave off yards; you can’t shave off yards when the pin is on the right because now the bank comes into play.
    I may be wrong because I didn’t re-watch Tiger’s tee ball on 12, but he really looked like he accelerated on the down swing (which is likely why the ball was slightly pulled). One thing I’m not wrong at; it really was a disadvantage for Molinari to have to go first there. Even if he and his caddie glanced over at 12 when they were on 11, they would have seen Koepka and Poulter both chipping over the water, it probably really helped Tiger to see Molinari, one of the best iron players on the planet, come up woefully short.

  • Cornwall1888Cornwall1888 Members Posts: 183 ✭✭

    Moo explained it as I was tying my reply, as you can see from the photo and not as well on tv the right side is a bigger carry

  • 3jacker3jacker Members Posts: 1,004 ✭✭

    Obviously TW played it smart. Amazes me how many of these other guys don't.

    I'll keep that in mind if I ever find myself in contention for the Master's on Sunday.

    Callaway XR16 SubZero Aldila Rogue I/O 70X
    TM V-Steel 4wd Protopype 80X
    Callaway UT 18* KBS C-Taper X
    Callaway Apex MB 4-PW KBS C-Taper X
    Cleveland 52*/58* CG10 KBS C-Taper X
    Sizemore XB-1
  • Rig14PortRig14Port Members Posts: 749 ✭✭

    see: http://www.golfwrx.com/554246/no-12-at-augusta-national-the-golden-bell-tolls-for-koepka-molinari/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Featured_Center_Sub&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=sub
    It was designed to visually lure players into making a mistake. This is what Robert Trent Jones was known for with his course architecture. Probably the best designed hole in golf for the drama it can create late in a Sunday major.

    Epic Flash SZ 9* HZRDUS Smoke 70 6.5
    TM '17 M2 Tour 15* HZRDUS Smoke 80 6.5
    TM 17' M1 Rescue 19* Aldila ATX Green 105 TX
    PXG 0311T 4-PW DG TI X100
    Vokey SM7 Raw @ 51*, 55*, 59* DG TI S400
    Odyssey RSX 001
  • 3jacker3jacker Members Posts: 1,004 ✭✭

    It's unlike any other. I can't think of any other hole in all of professional golf that actually can deliver the tension and anxiety that this one does. I could feel it in my living room for god's sake.

    Callaway XR16 SubZero Aldila Rogue I/O 70X
    TM V-Steel 4wd Protopype 80X
    Callaway UT 18* KBS C-Taper X
    Callaway Apex MB 4-PW KBS C-Taper X
    Cleveland 52*/58* CG10 KBS C-Taper X
    Sizemore XB-1
  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members Posts: 2,747 ✭✭

    this hole was so significant yesterday, i prayed tiger won't make his birdie putt on 11 lol. Koepka/Poulter went in the aqua..their problem was shooting at the open space where the pin is. That is exposed. Francesco played for that neck of the green..big mistake.. Finau too. Tiger played it correctly. Over the left bunker. It's the wind and swirl with a tee shot above the green, water and danger behind the green. They should have played for a 50 footer. Glad they didn't. Tiger won because of 12.

    Cobra LTD PRO/LTD BLACK  Matrix F6M2/F7M3/Project X LZ 6.0 71g HC/ Fuji 661 III
    Cobra LTD 3/4 Kai'li 80
    Cobra LTD 4/5 Kai'li 80
    TM Mid_Rescue TP 22*
    Cobra Fly Z  Pro Irons Modus 120x SSx2 4-pw
    RTX 3.0 50, 54, 60 Modus 125
    Machine LN M6
  • dropkickeddropkicked TorontoMembers Posts: 493 ✭✭

    Sucker Pin.. Funny, how Tiger stated in his post presser that he was going for the middle as soon as he stood on the tee box.. Explained that if Brooks missed, he had no chance of carrying it.
    Experience was key.

  • GnomesteelGnomesteel Members Posts: 975 ✭✭

    Jack and Tiger both know to go for the middle on 12 on Sunday. Maybe that's what makes them the best iron players of all time.

  • NevinWNevinW Las VegasClubWRX Posts: 1,113 ClubWRX

    When the pin is on the right, it is a very tempting target, but the margin for error on the right is extremely small. With the swirling winds, two identically hit balls can end up in drastically different places. A number of players over the years have said that they originally intended to hit it to the middle of the green but saw that pin sitting there and at the last second aimed at it instead with disastrous results.

  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,657 ClubWRX

    Even if going for the middle, still have to execute. Sometimes they go for the middle and end up short and right, or long, or left. They aren't machines and pressure adds so much.

  • tideridertiderider Members Posts: 1,609 ✭✭

    part of it is the aggressive nature of today's pro ... it's a short hole, so they're thinking why do i need to aim away from the hole since it's so short ... and some might choose to finesse a shot instead of hitting a full shot ... the green is very tiny at that end ... add in the wind, and you've got a great hole ...

  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 4,641 ✭✭
    edited Apr 15, 2019 2:33pm #19

    It's a bad decision that leads to a ball in the water. Experience wins every single time.
    Been watching the Masters since 1976. It's always been said, "Forget the flag, take the yardage over the right portion of the bunker and add 3."

  • smashdnsmashdn Let's cut them trees down. Members Posts: 988 ✭✭

    Wind and fear of the chip back?

    That front bunker doesn't look to bad. It and the green beyond is effectively the widest part to play to no?

  • 3jacker3jacker Members Posts: 1,004 ✭✭
    edited Apr 15, 2019 2:38pm #21

    @Ferguson said:
    It's a bad decision that leads to a ball in the water. Experience wins every single time.
    Been watching the Masters since 1976. It's always been said, "Forget the flag, take the yardage over the right portion of the bunker and add 3."

    So if a bunch of internet golf forum goobs like us know that, why don't Young Jordan, Frankie, Tony et al know this?
    Seems like someone should tell them.

    Callaway XR16 SubZero Aldila Rogue I/O 70X
    TM V-Steel 4wd Protopype 80X
    Callaway UT 18* KBS C-Taper X
    Callaway Apex MB 4-PW KBS C-Taper X
    Cleveland 52*/58* CG10 KBS C-Taper X
    Sizemore XB-1
  • Birdie MacBirdie Mac Members Posts: 490 ✭✭

    @Ronnie Mundt said:
    That’s right; if there is a hint of win, every inch your ball moves to the right means it also needs to be covering more ground at the same time, which is difficult if you are hitting the high fade like these players do. High fade tends to shave off yards; you can’t shave off yards when the pin is on the right because now the bank comes into play.
    I may be wrong because I didn’t re-watch Tiger’s tee ball on 12, but he really looked like he accelerated on the down swing (which is likely why the ball was slightly pulled). One thing I’m not wrong at; it really was a disadvantage for Molinari to have to go first there. Even if he and his caddie glanced over at 12 when they were on 11, they would have seen Koepka and Poulter both chipping over the water, it probably really helped Tiger to see Molinari, one of the best iron players on the planet, come up woefully short.

    Tiger didn't pull his shot; he hit it where he aimed and said so after the tournament. Also, I don't see where it was a disadvantage for Molinari to tee off after watching the group ahead; if anything, that would have made him club up and go long.

  • RobotDoctorRobotDoctor Senior Hacker ClubWRX Posts: 4,543 ClubWRX

    @3jacker said:
    A lot of drama here, as always. This hole got Tiger's playing partners, along with several other folks on the leader board all within a few minutes of one another. It changed the flow of the tournament and opened the door for TW to come through. My question about this hole is this: Why so many misses short? The best players in the world come up short FAR more often than go long. Seems odd, given that the penalty is more severe and then they are faced with the same shot. I know a bunker shot down to that narrow green with the creek behind is no fun. But at least it's a chance. Better than a sure dunking and 1 stroke penalty.

    Is there something I'm missing? Or is it just a matter of it being the best choke hole in all of golfdom?

    Ask Greg Norman about 12. He had a wealth of experience but on Sunday in 1996 he made a fatal mistake that ultimately cost him his Masters championship.

    Taylormade M3 (2018 tour head) 9.9 degree Graphite Design Tour AD DI 6S
    Titleist 906F2 15 degree Fujikura Pro 73 Tour Spec stiff
    Taylormade SLDR 2 Hybrid Graphite Design Tour AD DI-Hybrid 85 stiff
    Ben Hogan '99 Apex Blades (3-PW) Nippon Modus Tour 120 stiff
    Miura 52* GW S-200
    Scratch Golf LW Nippon Modus Tour 120 stiff
    Byron Morgan Epic Day Long Pipe Copper plated
    BestGrips Augusta Microperf grips
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 26,323 ✭✭

    I think Ray Floyd said he *never shoots at that pin on Sunday.

  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 4,641 ✭✭

    @3jacker said:

    @Ferguson said:
    It's a bad decision that leads to a ball in the water. Experience wins every single time.
    Been watching the Masters since 1976. It's always been said, "Forget the flag, take the yardage over the right portion of the bunker and add 3."

    So if a bunch of internet golf forum goobs like us know that, why don't Young Jordan, Frankie, Tony et al know this?
    Seems like someone should tell them.

    That someone is the caddie. I always question the caddie when I see something like that. 4 freaking balls in the water in two groups? The caddie should help with making rational decisions.

    12 forces a golfer to "make a decision" about winning and losing. With 13 and 15 upcoming, no reason to take a chance.

    My thought regarding Sunday @ # 12 - nothing wrong with a par.

  • mankumanku Members Posts: 697 ✭✭

    @bscinstnct said:
    I think Ray Floyd said he *never shoots at that pin on Sunday.

    Unfortunately he forgot to never shoot at the pin on 11 either 😟

  • hell_is_chromehell_is_chrome Members Posts: 935 ✭✭

    Everything that was said above: swirling wind, green angled away to the right forcing a push/fade that doesn't carry as far combined with long left being dead and the exact thing that happens on a pull, pressure of The Masters. In addition the hole is slightly uphill.
    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/18833405#Comment_18833405

  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,534 ClubWRX

    Never aim somewhere a good swing, but a bad effective distance calculation can cost you more than one stroke.

    Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 9° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
    3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
    Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
    Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/KBS Tour R-flex
    Sand Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM7 54/08 M Grind w/KBS Tour R-Flex
    Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM6 58/04 L Grind w/TT Wedge Flex
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Mid Slim 2.0
    Ball: Titleist AVX in yellow
  • redfirebird08redfirebird08 Members Posts: 7,916 ✭✭

    Incredible little hole. The trees create just enough confusion on the wind that we end up with total chaos (Spieth x 2, Norman, Molinari, Koepka, on and on through the years).

  • 15th Club15th Club Members Posts: 1,664 ✭✭
    edited Apr 15, 2019 3:40pm #31

    So my thoughts on 12, and the number of times we have seen leaders fail by hitting tee shots short...
    1. There is a phenomenon with the wind down there (it is the lowest part of one of the hilliest golf courses you have ever seen) where it can puff into your face without your realizing it.
    2. We see a lot of memorable misses short, and since they are seen so dramatically on television, we remember them. But players have also missed long. ANGC has tried to trim up the garden of azaleas and forsythia (aka "Golden Bell," giving the hole its name) behind the green but it is still an unplayable jungle. We think of a ball going short and into Rae's Creek as the worst outcome but it isn't. Plugged and unplayable in the hillside behind the green is the worst. Next worst, or at least equal to the water hazard, is a lie behind the green where the ball stays on grass but is on the beginning of the upslope of the hill. Which is a downhill lie to the hole. That is an almost guaranteed bogey. Worse, if you blade it across the green and down into the creek. So there is a reason why Masters competitors are playing it so cozy with the water. Nobody wants to hit it long.

    I hate to nitpick what was a perfectly good OP. And it is not personal; everyone including television announcers (I am looking at you Peter Kostis) does this. But when you are in match play, the guy you are playing with is your "opponent." When you are in medal/stroke play, the guy(s) you are playing with are "fellow competitors." Other guys in the competition are "competitors." I don't know where"playing partner," "playing companion" and "playing competitor" ever came from.

Sign In or Register to comment.