Going it alone- Tiger's new philosophy

Tiger has inspired me to no longer look to others to help me with my swing. I now have a practice mat and net at home and can make adjustments and tweaks as I go along. I find myself going to the course and "playing swing" instead of playing golf. It seems Tiger had the same problem 2010-2017. He was constantly on the range with a coach behind him and always looking at video of his swing. In the end he decided it wasn't worth it because he wasn't getting better. Lo and behold, he goes alone and he wins the Masters. I have seen tournament results from well known instructors online. Scores in the 90s, NC, NC, WD, NC etc. The old "those who can't, teach". Its amazing that someone who teaches the game for a living can't maneuver their way to a score below 90. I wonder if Tiger had the same come to Jesus moment- "im taking advice from guys i'd beat by 20 shots". I dont expect instructors to fire 68 every round but you see where I'm coming from.

Good luck to you! It sure saves money for green fees and range balls. I’ve never had a lesson, I just do some mirror work 3-4x a week before I go to sleep

Terrific insight. But I do not believe it is the Chris Como Swing. He fired Como in December 2017. Im reading the article now. Tiger said he has to “relearn my own body and golf swing.”

Best of luck

My thoughts. Tiger is the greatest ball striker of all time, he has been swinging a golf club for over 40 years, been winning tournaments for 35+ years, has a golf course in his backyard, and has very possibly hit more golf balls in his life than just about any other human alive. What he can accomplish on his own and what your average amateur can accomplish on their own are literally worlds and worlds apart.

Whatever is going on, his swing looks more natural, less forced....to the novice eye it just looks like how he should be swinging. With the Harmon swing, Haney swing, Foley swing...yikes!, the Como swing etc. there was always tons of analysis, criticism etc. about what the heck he was doing. He seemed to win in spite of what he was trying to do.

Arguably the Harmon swing was the best golf in the history of the game, but Tiger claimed it put too much pressure on his body. Haney swing was contrived at best, what Haney thought was on plane was actually laid off and off plane. Foley had him dong crap and tilt, with tons of TGM forward lean, just awful....

Point is I have seen very little analysis of he most recent action, I think because there is not need, it just seems to work.

> @Krt22 said:

> Best of luck

>

> My thoughts. Tiger is the greatest ball striker of all time, he has been swinging a golf club for over 40 years, been winning tournaments for 35+ years, has a golf course in his backyard, and has very possibly hit more golf balls in his life than just about any other human alive. What he can accomplish on his own and what your average amateur can accomplish on their own are literally worlds and worlds apart.

I'm going to go Vijay Singh and Tom Kite tied at the top for hitting balls, all-time. ;-)

> @RichieHunt said:

> Pretty much all of Tiger’s swing right now is what he worked with Chris Como on. That’s why I feel Chris gets a really bad rap, when they were officially working together Tiger’s back was in no condition to play competitive golf. Tiger also had the chipping yips that Chris worked with Tiger to fix them.

>

> Then Tiger quits working with Chris.

>

> Now, I’m not trying to shame Tiger here. He’s certainly entitled to make his own decisions with what he wants to do. But, most people don’t realize Chris’ positive impact on Tiger’s game.

>

> What most people don’t also realize is that when I talked to Chris about when he first started working with Tiger is tha Chris told me that he felt where the teaching industry goes wrong is by creating a reliance of the golfer with the instructor. Furthermore, Chris told me one of his goals working with Tiger was to get Tiger to the point where he is not reliant on Chris for help.

>

> I think what has happened with golf instruction over the past 100 years is that with all of the ‘Bagger Vance’ type instruction before 1990 and players not using instructors that often…too many golfers didn’t get better and reach their potential because they simply did not have the skill and awareness to just ‘work at it’ and ‘build their own swing’ and get better.

>

> But, then the pendulum swung in the other direction. Now players because tethered to instructors and it had a bad effect on my players. And now many players that were good enough without instruction became worse with all of this instruction. And many players that did not have the skill or awareness to work at it alone didn’t get any better with lousy, micromanagement type instruction.

>

> In my experience, the best way of teaching lies somewhere in between the two. The golfers that I have seen really excel with instruction get plenty of instruction at first and then it tapers off when they start to consistently execute what the instructor is working with them on. And from there, they’ll occasionally see the instructor, get some confirmation or clean a few minor things up.

>

>

>

>

> RH

good post and I think your right. He didn't really make much changes to his swing after Chris, was just all feel of his body. He was just actually well enough to hit a golf ball after the surgery.

Chris did want to get Tigers hands more upright then they are even now though. I remember watching a Tiger range clinic few years back and he mentioned Chris and himself were working on getting his hands up, he demonstrated the position and was pretty high. Tiger mentioned that he has only been able to raise them up about an inch or so vs where they use to be with Foley. I think that would of been pretty cool if he did, swing would resemble his 2000 one more so.

You know what's crazy is he won 8 majors with Butch and 6 with Haney.

> @crapula said:

> You know what's crazy is he won 8 majors with Butch and 6 with Haney.

Even more crazy. He won 14 out of 15 majors had a Scotty Cameron GSS Newport 2. Had never went to the method 001, he would have 20+ majors by now. No doubt in my mind

> @Krt22 said:

> > @crapula said:

> > You know what's crazy is he won 8 majors with Butch and 6 with Haney.

>

> Even more crazy. He won 14 out of 15 majors had a Scotty Cameron GSS Newport 2. Had never went to the method 001, he would have 20+ majors by now. No doubt in my mind

Not sure if this is a troll or not, but I don't even think he played 6 majors with the method, let along winning them all had he gone with a Scotty!

> @Cpr3584 said:

> Tiger has inspired me to no longer look to others to help me with my swing. I now have a practice mat and net at home and can make adjustments and tweaks as I go along. I find myself going to the course and "playing swing" instead of playing golf. It seems Tiger had the same problem 2010-2017. He was constantly on the range with a coach behind him and always looking at video of his swing. In the end he decided it wasn't worth it because he wasn't getting better. Lo and behold, he goes alone and he wins the Masters. I have seen tournament results from well known instructors online. Scores in the 90s, NC, NC, WD, NC etc. The old "those who can't, teach". Its amazing that someone who teaches the game for a living can't maneuver their way to a score below 90. I wonder if Tiger had the same come to Jesus moment- "im taking advice from guys i'd beat by 20 shots". I dont expect instructors to fire 68 every round but you see where I'm coming from.

Do you think all the other 199 golfers in the top 200 in the world who rely on instructors (who are all worse golfers than they are) to help guide their swings would also benefit from going at it alone? Or maybe Tiger is a unique case as one of the top 2-3 ballstrikers in the history of the game. Who's to say?

> @gentles said:

> > @Cpr3584 said:

> > Tiger has inspired me to no longer look to others to help me with my swing. I now have a practice mat and net at home and can make adjustments and tweaks as I go along. I find myself going to the course and "playing swing" instead of playing golf. It seems Tiger had the same problem 2010-2017. He was constantly on the range with a coach behind him and always looking at video of his swing. In the end he decided it wasn't worth it because he wasn't getting better. Lo and behold, he goes alone and he wins the Masters. I have seen tournament results from well known instructors online. Scores in the 90s, NC, NC, WD, NC etc. The old "those who can't, teach". Its amazing that someone who teaches the game for a living can't maneuver their way to a score below 90. I wonder if Tiger had the same come to Jesus moment- "im taking advice from guys i'd beat by 20 shots". I dont expect instructors to fire 68 every round but you see where I'm coming from.

>

> Do you think all the other 199 golfers in the top 200 in the world who rely on instructors (who are all worse golfers than they are) to help guide their swings would also benefit from going at it alone? Or maybe Tiger is a unique case as one of the top 2-3 ballstrikers in the history of the game. Who's to say?

I think most of the top players on the pga tour would be fine going at it alone. It's just more convenient to have someone in your corner looking over your swing.

ive never had a lesson and I hit it pretty solid all the way through the bag. but it took 3 years of hard work to get there. I know if I had a series of lessons with a damn good instructor in the early stages i could have probably saved myself a year of searching. But i also know if i picked the wrong instructor it probably would have cost me an extra year. what I dont know is if I'd have as much knowledge and understanding of my own swing as I do now, with a teacher. now when i get a little sideways I can get it back in line pretty damn quick. I know my swing really well, which was my goal when i started my journey to hit it better.

This is an interesting topic and a topic that can be very much debated. I have also considered going without instruction. For some reason, which I can not accurately explain, golf instruction has not improved golfers scores over the last 30 years. This is despite, an increase in understanding of the golf swing, increase in video technology, and what is assumed an increase in qualified instructors. Why is this??? It would have been interesting to see what TW would have done without an instructor(s) messing with his golf swing starting in say 1997 onward. I think his natural talent combined with an already proficient swing could have produced similar if not better results.

I cant remember who said it, might even of been Harmon, that said that Tiger knew his swing better than anyone could possibly know. Which at the end of the day is one of the best things for a player to have. Sometimes you need a set of eyes to see something that's just off that you cant necessarily feel.

I'm obviously not a tour pro nor am I really a competitive golfer, but maybe some of these relationships are more coach-player than teacher-student.

Anyone notice, Tiger was wearing red in the final round of the Masters in 1997 and also this year. Weird.

I know a lot of really good player who "own" their swing--they have hit a million balls with the same motion for a long time and hit it pretty good. The question is: Will they ever get better? If you are happy to play at an index of 10 or 4 or 2 or whatever--that's great. But, as Jack Nicklaus said, if you want to play at scratch or below, you need to remove even the most subtle flaws from your game. Personally, I don't think you can do this without the help of a good instructor. How much you lean on them is a question that doesn't have a universal answer. Some people need a lesson every once in a while, other need frequent feedback.

The problem with being your own teacher is that what you think you are doing is not necessarily what you ARE doing. If you find a flaw, can you accurately identify the problem, it's cause and solution? More importantly, are you as talented as Tiger, who had teachers way before Butch arrived.

The guy said many years ago he wanted to own his own swing. Felt that Hogan & Moe were the only two players' who actually did that and they were his hero's for it. He's finally getting to that. He's light years more knowledgable about the swing than any of us can ever dream. He's doing the exact right thing.

Faxon on sirrius said he played with Tiger recently and the biggest problem Tiger said he was having was getting used to distance control, even on short irons. Faxon went on to say that when Nike shut it down on their clubs, the average distance gained by their tour staff was around 15 yards.

Sounds like his time with Como was a success if one of the goals was for Tiger to be able to figure things out himself and not rely on someone else.

It's been over two years since they worked together and that was pre-surgery, so it seems Tiger is doing pretty well on his own. That said who knows if he communicates from time to time with anyone in particular or has some other helpful eyes that he trusts.

As you get older, you learn to distinguish the ideal from the possible. There's no point in trying to implement an instructor-directed ideal swing if your body won't let you do it. So, you begin to learn your own body, and you craft a swing to suit it. It may not be ideal in the broad sense, but it's ideal for you. A really good instructor would help guide you thru that process, but I've never met anyone like that. Tiger is managing his own body now, and his smooth driver swing is testament to his success.

Tiger has 40 years of golf. He's learned from the best and played with the best. He has 40 years of instruction, coaching, training, and experience. To be inspired by Tiger to go coach less yourself is a logical fallacy.

Best of luck.

> @BrianMcG said:

> Anyone notice, Tiger was wearing red in the final round of the Masters in 1997 and also this year. Weird.

To paraphrase Mars Blackmon..."money! It's gotta be the shirts"! :)

> @"ALPHA MAN" said:

> > @RichieHunt said:

> > Pretty much all of Tiger’s swing right now is what he worked with Chris Como on. That’s why I feel Chris gets a really bad rap, when they were officially working together Tiger’s back was in no condition to play competitive golf. Tiger also had the chipping yips that Chris worked with Tiger to fix them.

> >

> > Then Tiger quits working with Chris.

> >

> > Now, I’m not trying to shame Tiger here. He’s certainly entitled to make his own decisions with what he wants to do. But, most people don’t realize Chris’ positive impact on Tiger’s game.

> >

> > What most people don’t also realize is that when I talked to Chris about when he first started working with Tiger is tha Chris told me that he felt where the teaching industry goes wrong is by creating a reliance of the golfer with the instructor. Furthermore, Chris told me one of his goals working with Tiger was to get Tiger to the point where he is not reliant on Chris for help.

> >

> > I think what has happened with golf instruction over the past 100 years is that with all of the ‘Bagger Vance’ type instruction before 1990 and players not using instructors that often…too many golfers didn’t get better and reach their potential because they simply did not have the skill and awareness to just ‘work at it’ and ‘build their own swing’ and get better.

> >

> > But, then the pendulum swung in the other direction. Now players because tethered to instructors and it had a bad effect on my players. And now many players that were good enough without instruction became worse with all of this instruction. And many players that did not have the skill or awareness to work at it alone didn’t get any better with lousy, micromanagement type instruction.

> >

> > In my experience, the best way of teaching lies somewhere in between the two. The golfers that I have seen really excel with instruction get plenty of instruction at first and then it tapers off when they start to consistently execute what the instructor is working with them on. And from there, they’ll occasionally see the instructor, get some confirmation or clean a few minor things up.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > RH

>

>

> There's a reason Tiger quit Como and only Tiger knows what that is. If Como wanted Tiger to be self reliant... he got his wish! Tiger and Butch H. were doing ok, so it seems Tiger can go the instructor route or go the non instructor route. The reason is simple he's just that good and only injuries derailed him. Tiger when injured tried to get some kind of swing where he could play thus enter Foley...it didn't work out, probably made things worse.

> Tiger had coaching thru out his golfing life till now, a lot of that is in his memory bank the good, bad,& ugly, he's pulling out the good and it's working again. He never lost it, it was always there just buried under all the injuries and goofy instruction from Foley.

If you look at Tiger's metrics under Foley, they really weren't bad at all. And he won 5 events under Foley in 2011.

I think a lot of the instruction issues started under Haney. I was there at the 2010 PLAYERS Championship where Tiger, still under Haney, was never hitting a driver and popping up 3-woods and putting idiot marks on them in the practice round. Tiger then WD'd citing an injury, but I have my doubts that was the problem. I think he knew he would be lucky to break 80 because he simply couldn't get off the tee and wanted to save himself the embarrassment.

The thing with his work under Haney is that his driving became awful...but, his iron play became phenomenal. Like...greatest iron player ever type of phenomenal and....worst driving great player of all time type of driving.

The difference was that Tiger improved his short game around the green and went from a good putter to arguably the best on Tour.

That era was also at a time when the Tour did not have many great players that drove the ball great. The great drivers on Tour during that era were guys like Boo Weekley, Charles Warren, etc. who just weren't in that 'great' category as a total player despite being great drivers of the ball.

Eventually, the young 'great' players started to gain an advantage on Tiger by driving the ball much better than he does. And they had the requisite distance, iron play and putting to be 'great' players. We saw this in the 2009 PGA Championship where YE Yang beat out Tiger because Tiger was resorting to using 2-irons off the tee because he couldn't hit his driver and his 3-wood was going wayward on him. And Yang could just blow his driver 60 yards past his 2-irons and even Tiger, incredible iron play and putting, couldn't keep up with a then mid-level player in Yang.

Tiger is still having issues with his driving. But, he's back to being the best iron player in the world and arguably the best escape shot player in the world along with his best performance around the greens in his career and putting pretty well (albeit not at his former level).

The driving though...is not nearly as bad as it once was. And had he not been able to use his driver at ANGC like he was starting in the latter days of the Haney era...I don't see him winning last week.

RH

> @RichieHunt said:

> > @"ALPHA MAN" said:

> > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > Pretty much all of Tiger’s swing right now is what he worked with Chris Como on. That’s why I feel Chris gets a really bad rap, when they were officially working together Tiger’s back was in no condition to play competitive golf. Tiger also had the chipping yips that Chris worked with Tiger to fix them.

> > >

> > > Then Tiger quits working with Chris.

> > >

> > > Now, I’m not trying to shame Tiger here. He’s certainly entitled to make his own decisions with what he wants to do. But, most people don’t realize Chris’ positive impact on Tiger’s game.

> > >

> > > What most people don’t also realize is that when I talked to Chris about when he first started working with Tiger is tha Chris told me that he felt where the teaching industry goes wrong is by creating a reliance of the golfer with the instructor. Furthermore, Chris told me one of his goals working with Tiger was to get Tiger to the point where he is not reliant on Chris for help.

> > >

> > > I think what has happened with golf instruction over the past 100 years is that with all of the ‘Bagger Vance’ type instruction before 1990 and players not using instructors that often…too many golfers didn’t get better and reach their potential because they simply did not have the skill and awareness to just ‘work at it’ and ‘build their own swing’ and get better.

> > >

> > > But, then the pendulum swung in the other direction. Now players because tethered to instructors and it had a bad effect on my players. And now many players that were good enough without instruction became worse with all of this instruction. And many players that did not have the skill or awareness to work at it alone didn’t get any better with lousy, micromanagement type instruction.

> > >

> > > In my experience, the best way of teaching lies somewhere in between the two. The golfers that I have seen really excel with instruction get plenty of instruction at first and then it tapers off when they start to consistently execute what the instructor is working with them on. And from there, they’ll occasionally see the instructor, get some confirmation or clean a few minor things up.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > RH

> >

> >

> > There's a reason Tiger quit Como and only Tiger knows what that is. If Como wanted Tiger to be self reliant... he got his wish! Tiger and Butch H. were doing ok, so it seems Tiger can go the instructor route or go the non instructor route. The reason is simple he's just that good and only injuries derailed him. Tiger when injured tried to get some kind of swing where he could play thus enter Foley...it didn't work out, probably made things worse.

> > Tiger had coaching thru out his golfing life till now, a lot of that is in his memory bank the good, bad,& ugly, he's pulling out the good and it's working again. He never lost it, it was always there just buried under all the injuries and goofy instruction from Foley.

>

> If you look at Tiger's metrics under Foley, they really weren't bad at all. And he won 5 events under Foley in 2011.

>

> I think a lot of the instruction issues started under Haney. I was there at the 2010 PLAYERS Championship where Tiger, still under Haney, was never hitting a driver and popping up 3-woods and putting idiot marks on them in the practice round. Tiger then WD'd citing an injury, but I have my doubts that was the problem. I think he knew he would be lucky to break 80 because he simply couldn't get off the tee and wanted to save himself the embarrassment.

>

> The thing with his work under Haney is that his driving became awful...but, his iron play became phenomenal. Like...greatest iron player ever type of phenomenal and....worst driving great player of all time type of driving.

>

> The difference was that Tiger improved his short game around the green and went from a good putter to arguably the best on Tour.

>

> That era was also at a time when the Tour did not have many great players that drove the ball great. The great drivers on Tour during that era were guys like Boo Weekley, Charles Warren, etc. who just weren't in that 'great' category as a total player despite being great drivers of the ball.

>

> Eventually, the young 'great' players started to gain an advantage on Tiger by driving the ball much better than he does. And they had the requisite distance, iron play and putting to be 'great' players. We saw this in the 2009 PGA Championship where YE Yang beat out Tiger because Tiger was resorting to using 2-irons off the tee because he couldn't hit his driver and his 3-wood was going wayward on him. And Yang could just blow his driver 60 yards past his 2-irons and even Tiger, incredible iron play and putting, couldn't keep up with a then mid-level player in Yang.

>

> Tiger is still having issues with his driving. But, he's back to being the best iron player in the world and arguably the best escape shot player in the world along with his best performance around the greens in his career and putting pretty well (albeit not at his former level).

>

> The driving though...is not nearly as bad as it once was. And had he not been able to use his driver at ANGC like he was starting in the latter days of the Haney era...I don't see him winning last week.

>

>

>

> RH

Thanks RH.. this is exactly what I have always believed to be the case. That haney swing was so weird, I remember him practicing that laid off position, and wondering what he was really trying to accomplish. I never could understand how it worked so well for the irons but not the driver...but if you think about it, Haney gave himself the yips with the driver...so....it's just a contrived position that I think he got from tracing lines on early versions of swing analysis software and it looked good on "paper" but not inreality.

Tiger's swing looks so good now, if he was truly pain free and healthy like he was when younger he would be playing his best golf ever I have to think.

yes I agree the Haney swing was too flat. He looks more upright now but still has the connection between his left arm and chest

Tiger's SG stats from 2004-2013 form pga tour.com Haney from 2004-2010 - Foley 2010 - 2014 - Como 2014-2017

Seems he did pretty well under Haney until after the 2008 season and injury but he really feel off under Foley in 2013. With Como he just wasn't healthy at all .

SG OTT Dist. %fairways

04 31st 302 56

05 4th 316 55

06 1st 306 61

07 1st 302 60

08 wash out due to injury and only played 11 rounds

09 41st 298 64

10/11 again not enough rounds injury

12 14th 297 64

13 127th 293 62