Went to a Demo day yesterday... Left me thinking... New post/Update May 8

Hi Everyone!

Have a bit of a conundrum... My current Irons (4-GW) are JPX 900 Forged. Shafts are C-taper 120g hard-stepped and are +1". Long story short I've been hitting the ball terribly this year. Some of it has been a swing change but on video things are improving... but the ball still feels like absolute junk coming off the face. Toed shots and EVERYTHING going right. Woods and wedges are fine... Just the irons. When I ordered these irons I simply ordered the same specs I had in my previous irons but they came from Mizuno REALLY flat so I had them bent last summer more upright but I don't think it was enough.

I've really been thinking my irons are too flat. Well yesterday the regional Ping rep came to my course. He watched me hit a few with my irons and built me up an i210. Green dot +1" with Dynamic Gold 120. First swing was dead center. Shot after shot hit perfectly. The feel was miles above my irons as well.

Went back to my 7 iron and the same weak toed junk. Was talking with him and he mentioned that my irons actually did look flat (without me saying anything to him about it) which agrees with what I have been thinking.

My question is... I've got an appointment on Monday with my local fitter (he's really good) to have my lie angles checked... Should I consider switching shafts while I'm at it? Are the C-Tapers really that much more harsh than the DG 120 I hit? Or will changing the lie angle help me that much? Really was hoping to have my irons last me at least a couple more years...

P.S. the Ping G410 17 degree hybrid is amazing! Also Ping does not make a driver that spins low enough for me...

Well a lie adjustment is cheaper the reshafting. So try that first.

Ctaper feel fine if you have the speed to load them

Shaft is really much more about feel. They will do very similar things. So off you felt better hitting the DG then give them a go.

You might also find that centre contact with the C tapers helps the way they feel. Toe hits are no fun.

Wan

> @Kale_m said:

> Well a lie adjustment is cheaper the reshafting. So try that first.

>

> Ctaper feel fine if you have the speed to load them

That's kinda what I'm thinking. I can't imagine the i210 would feel that much better or be that much for forgiving that my JPXs. I for sure don't swing as fast as I used too. Yesterday my driver SS was maxing out about 111 with an 80% swing--it's still early in the season for me so I'd expect that to climb slightly during the season.

> @WanLefty said:

> Shaft is really much more about feel. They will do very similar things. So off you felt better hitting the DG then give them a go.

> You might also find that centre contact with the C tapers helps the way they feel. Toe hits are no fun.

>

> Wan

I've never owned a set of DGs so I'm not very familiar with them but the rep said that they and the C-Tapers do very similar things. When I first got fit in those shafts about 4 and a half years ago they felt amazing (in my Ping Anser irons). It was just amazing to me how much better the Pings felt and went. Hopefully a lie angle adjustment will help.

I'm guessing it is the same Ping rep that was at my home club's demo days this past Tuesday at Silo Ridge. Total of 6 OEMs were there. That Ping guy is very knowledgeable guy. I had been playing with irons that are 1* flat and they told me I need to make my set around standard lie angles. I nearly ordered i500 but went with Z565 from a Srixon rep that I had played with few times.

DG 120 are much softer than C-Tapers, not many shafts are stouter than C-Tapers. I actually like the DG 120 shafts. I had a clubmaker(Grips Golf) install DG 120 TI S400 in my old P790's in fall of 2017, pulled C-Tapers out of those irons. Made those irons much more playable.

A shaft change may make a toe strike feel less bad but probably won't make it feel good. I bet the difference between the Pings and the JPX strikes is mostly due to lie with perhaps some contribution from swing weight. I would guess the swing weight of the Pings was significantly higher given that it sounds like it was a standard weight fitting cart head placed on a 1" longer shaft. Your overlength JPXs were presumably made using the lighter B heads to keep the swingweight down. A heavier swing weight may have caused the head to stay fractionally farther from you through the strike resulting in more center face contact.

> @br61 said:

> I'm guessing it is the same Ping rep that was at my home club's demo days this past Tuesday at Silo Ridge. Total of 6 OEMs were there. That Ping guy is very knowledgeable guy. I had been playing with irons that are 1* flat and they told me I need to make my set around standard lie angles. I nearly ordered i500 but went with Z565 from a Srixon rep that I had played with few times.

>

> DG 120 are much softer than C-Tapers, not many shafts are stouter than C-Tapers. I actually like the DG 120 shafts. I had a clubmaker(Grips Golf) install DG 120 TI S400 in my old P790's in fall of 2017, pulled C-Tapers out of those irons. Made those irons much more playable.

Yup I'm sure it was the same guy. I've worked with him at a couple demo days in the past and have found his information to be nothing but accurate. He asked me if my irons had been fit (I told him how I ended up with them like they are) and that they looked flat.

There's no doubt when I first ended up with C-Tapers that was the shaft I needed. I forgot to mention but when I got these irons last summer (ordered from a course) I tried Mizunos fitting thing (the one that clips to the iron shaft) and it recommended either the C-Taper or one of the PX (I don't remember which one).

I ultimately decided to just order the same set up I was currently playing. A couple weeks of owning them I was NOT getting a long with them. Took them to Grips Golf and they were something like 3 degrees flat --I don't remember exactly but I can remember him saying "How do you even hit these things??" He bent them upright some amount but I don't think it was enough. We will see what he says. While I'm there I may have him build me up some JPX 919s with the DG 120 to see how things go. Really didn't want to buy a new set of shafts this year as I'm planning on getting new irons completely sometime next year.

P.S. we should play sometime!

> @Back9 said:

> A shaft change may make a toe strike feel less bad but probably won't make it feel good. I bet the difference between the Pings and the JPX strikes is mostly due to lie with perhaps some contribution from swing weight. I would guess the swing weight of the Pings was significantly higher given that it sounds like it was a standard weight fitting cart head placed on a 1" longer shaft. Your overlength JPXs were presumably made using the lighter B heads to keep the swingweight down. A heavier swing weight may have caused the head to stay fractionally farther from you through the strike resulting in more center face contact.

Hmm that's certainly an interesting insight I had not thought of. Is there a way to know if they are the lighter heads? I assume I can call Mizuno?

You know the answer. Spend X on lie adjusts and new shafts and install

Just sell the current set and get the Pings

C-tapers fit a certain type of golfer. I hate them in any model. Brutal on hands and elbows like the old satin PX suff

Very boardy and short

I also have advice. Try your W at +1" and then go with 1/4" increment to 9 iron ... and 3/8" increments thru rest of set so your longer irons are not quite as long. Works for me

Step 1: Get a dynamic lie angle check on all irons (find sole strike at impact). Get JPX lies adjusted and see if this cures the toe problem. IF this doesn't work, take step 2.

Step 2: Sell off the JPX irons and get fitted for the Ping i210 with a more benevolent shaft. As **cardoustie** said, the C-Taper and Project X shafts feel harsh for most golfers.

> @FlyingLaw1 said:

> > @Back9 said:

> > A shaft change may make a toe strike feel less bad but probably won't make it feel good. I bet the difference between the Pings and the JPX strikes is mostly due to lie with perhaps some contribution from swing weight. I would guess the swing weight of the Pings was significantly higher given that it sounds like it was a standard weight fitting cart head placed on a 1" longer shaft. Your overlength JPXs were presumably made using the lighter B heads to keep the swingweight down. A heavier swing weight may have caused the head to stay fractionally farther from you through the strike resulting in more center face contact.

>

> Hmm that's certainly an interesting insight I had not thought of. Is there a way to know if they are the lighter heads? I assume I can call Mizuno?

If they were factory made at +1", Mizuno used the lighter B heads. It is my understanding that they do that for all builds at +1/2" or over unless the buyer specifically requests a higher swingweight.

Thanks everyone for your extremely helpful input! I think I've got a game plan.

@Back9 They were factory made by Mizuno so I'll assume they are the heads you reference.

@cardoustie I hadn't thought of that... But its certainly something to consider... my 4 iron is looooong.

@ChipNRun I had to admit it but you are completely right. It's just not worth it to have my current irons reshafted when for not much more I can just get new irons. Really wasn't thinking I'd be buying new irons this year as my JPXs are not even a year old... If that's the route I go I'll probably try a few different heads.

One more thing... I'm 6'3" so on the taller side for a golfer. Having said that I don't think I've ever had a fitter tell me flat out that I NEED clubs that are an inch over. I've usually just been asked. I think on Monday I'll see what the guy suggests. One thing is for sure... if I do end up getting new clubs I'll be getting completely fit. No more ball parking it for me!

What is your hdcp.?

I'm 6'2" and fit into 3/4" over. I can play standard or 1/4" over but go longer due to a bad back and my love for heavier swingweights

I also play flatter lie angles (to eliminate or minimize left misses)

I tell you what. When I lengthened my short irons, all toeing issues went away. Keeping the longer irons short by using a progression of 1/4" and/or 3/8" (Tom Wishon helped out immensely on this) also made a big difference

I had a thread about taller golfers and short irons that seemed to resonate with a lot of players if you want to search for it

FYI - the benefit of smaller increments between iron lengths is you also ending up working towards a MOI matching set. My 5 iron is D5 and each iron progresses one swing weight point (ie the 7 iron is D7). Feel and performance is outstanding

@cardoustie Handicap is currently a 7.5 and dropping as I shake of the winter rust and course conditions improve. I finished last season as a 1.9.

The first few weeks of the year I was getting too steep coming down (causing some of the toed shots) but I've since made some changes and pretty much gotten rid of it. The terrible contact is still there with my JPXs. It was literally hit one with the Pings--Amazing contact. Hit the next one with JPXs--Absolutely terrible. It's just hard for me to imagine that as long as my irons are they aren't long enough--so your point is well taken. It's got to be something else.

I've read through that thread before. Lots of good info so I'll probably search it and give it another read as it has been a while. I also like your idea. I'll talk about it with my fitter on Monday.

FlyingLaw

I can't say enough about Pings, I try others and always go back to s55's or raptures or rapture Jspec

I can tell you that toe issues for me creep in from two things (early or late in the season when stiff and lazy)

Not turning away from the ball and/or not enough width on backswing

GOOD LUCK (and get the green dots)

If you want some J-spec rapture 3 and 4 irons let me know

@cardoustie

Thank you for your advice! Trust me it has been taken to heart. There's no doubt I was not swinging correctly earlier in the season but that demo day really opened my eyes to how poorly my irons feel to me. With the information I now have hopefully I'll get somewhere on Monday.

Funny enough... Until the last couple of years I had 14 Ping clubs in my bag. G2 irons, then G10s and then finally the Anser irons. I only ended up with the JPX 900 Forged because I wanted something similar to my Ansers and Ping didn't make anything like that at the time. Also a big selling point for the Mizunos for me was that I could get the C-Tapers at no upcharge. They were a $40 upcharge on the Pings.

I've gone to graphite to protect the joints (51 years old). Left side golf (inside elbow) and tennis elbow (outside) are killer to deal with if you're a range rat like myself

I was a s-400 and x100 ... and then Nippon 1150 guy for years

I have graphite sets in Fuji 100s MCI, Fuji 120x MCI and Aldila Mlti Pro 105x .... in 3 sets of Pings

I think the only graphite I have not tried is the Aldila 115 RIP tour, the new KBS stuff and the new Fuji pro stuff. Will grab a set of pulls when I see them pop up

Truthfully given my own history of tendon issues I should probably be doing my best to protect my joins as well. Probably not quite to the point of being Graphite (at least I wouldn't think but you never know)? I do hit loooots of balls on the range! That why my Anser grooves wore out so quickly...

**flyinglaw1**

The little refinements come in part from a person's physique and stance. I'm 5-foot-8 (I used to be 5-9 !), but I tend to need a 5i with a 38.25" shaft. That's either a quarter- or half-inch over standard for most models. I was ending up with strikes on the toe end of the iron, and a quick fix for my old 38" 5i (and other set irons) was to line up the shot a half-inch toward the hosel. This was the way to get a center strike.

Being that you are 6-foot-3, I'm a bit surprised a fitter prescribed you a flat iron lie. Maybe if you have proportionally very long arms this might make sense. But, your i210 test suggests _flat did not fit._

**Anyway, happy news!** Your year-old JPX set will bring high trade-in or resale value for you. (My prior irons were circa 2009 Calla X20 Tours - I'm keeping them for sentimental reasons rather than getting the $140 trade-in offer.)

> @ChipNRun said:

> **flyinglaw1**

> The little refinements come in part from a person's physique and stance. I'm 5-foot-8 (I used to be 5-9 !), but I tend to need a 5i with a 38.25" shaft. That's either a quarter- or half-inch over standard for most models. I was ending up with strikes on the toe end of the iron, and a quick fix for my old 38" 5i (and other set irons) was to line up the shot a half-inch toward the hosel. This was the way to get a center strike.

>

> Being that you are 6-foot-3, I'm a bit surprised a fitter prescribed you a flat iron lie. Maybe if you have proportionally very long arms this might make sense. But, your i210 test suggests _flat did not fit._

>

> **Anyway, happy news!** Your year-old JPX set will bring high trade-in or resale value for you. (My prior irons were circa 2009 Calla X20 Tours - I'm keeping them for sentimental reasons rather than getting the $140 trade-in offer.)

I wasn't technically fit for my current irons.... After messing around with Mizuno's fitting system the guy at my local course ordered (I thought) the same set up that I had on my Ping Ansers. For some reason the clubs showed up super flat for me. I should have gone to my normal fitter but the course I bought them from had a special deal (long story) that ended up saving me quite a bit on the set. Looks like I'm paying for it now! Rats.

And that is the good news... At least my current irons are still somewhat sought after! Hopefully the long shafts wont hurt that....

> @FlyingLaw1 said:

> > @br61 said:

> > I'm guessing it is the same Ping rep that was at my home club's demo days this past Tuesday at Silo Ridge. Total of 6 OEMs were there. That Ping guy is very knowledgeable guy. I had been playing with irons that are 1* flat and they told me I need to make my set around standard lie angles. I nearly ordered i500 but went with Z565 from a Srixon rep that I had played with few times.

> >

> > DG 120 are much softer than C-Tapers, not many shafts are stouter than C-Tapers. I actually like the DG 120 shafts. I had a clubmaker(Grips Golf) install DG 120 TI S400 in my old P790's in fall of 2017, pulled C-Tapers out of those irons. Made those irons much more playable.

>

> Yup I'm sure it was the same guy. I've worked with him at a couple demo days in the past and have found his information to be nothing but accurate. He asked me if my irons had been fit (I told him how I ended up with them like they are) and that they looked flat.

>

> There's no doubt when I first ended up with C-Tapers that was the shaft I needed. I forgot to mention but when I got these irons last summer (ordered from a course) I tried Mizunos fitting thing (the one that clips to the iron shaft) and it recommended either the C-Taper or one of the PX (I don't remember which one).

>

> I ultimately decided to just order the same set up I was currently playing. A couple weeks of owning them I was NOT getting a long with them. Took them to Grips Golf and they were something like 3 degrees flat --I don't remember exactly but I can remember him saying "How do you even hit these things??" He bent them upright some amount but I don't think it was enough. We will see what he says. While I'm there I may have him build me up some JPX 919s with the DG 120 to see how things go. Really didn't want to buy a new set of shafts this year as I'm planning on getting new irons completely sometime next year.

>

> P.S. we should play sometime!

Ryan should be able to help you out with what you need whether it's the lie angles, shafts or brand new JPX919 irons.

We should hook up for a round someday.

> @br61 said:

> > @FlyingLaw1 said:

> > > @br61 said:

> > > I'm guessing it is the same Ping rep that was at my home club's demo days this past Tuesday at Silo Ridge. Total of 6 OEMs were there. That Ping guy is very knowledgeable guy. I had been playing with irons that are 1* flat and they told me I need to make my set around standard lie angles. I nearly ordered i500 but went with Z565 from a Srixon rep that I had played with few times.

> > >

> > > DG 120 are much softer than C-Tapers, not many shafts are stouter than C-Tapers. I actually like the DG 120 shafts. I had a clubmaker(Grips Golf) install DG 120 TI S400 in my old P790's in fall of 2017, pulled C-Tapers out of those irons. Made those irons much more playable.

> >

> > Yup I'm sure it was the same guy. I've worked with him at a couple demo days in the past and have found his information to be nothing but accurate. He asked me if my irons had been fit (I told him how I ended up with them like they are) and that they looked flat.

> >

> > There's no doubt when I first ended up with C-Tapers that was the shaft I needed. I forgot to mention but when I got these irons last summer (ordered from a course) I tried Mizunos fitting thing (the one that clips to the iron shaft) and it recommended either the C-Taper or one of the PX (I don't remember which one).

> >

> > I ultimately decided to just order the same set up I was currently playing. A couple weeks of owning them I was NOT getting a long with them. Took them to Grips Golf and they were something like 3 degrees flat --I don't remember exactly but I can remember him saying "How do you even hit these things??" He bent them upright some amount but I don't think it was enough. We will see what he says. While I'm there I may have him build me up some JPX 919s with the DG 120 to see how things go. Really didn't want to buy a new set of shafts this year as I'm planning on getting new irons completely sometime next year.

> >

> > P.S. we should play sometime!

>

> Ryan should be able to help you out with what you need whether it's the lie angles, shafts or brand new JPX919 irons.

>

> We should hook up for a round someday.

>

>

I'm sure. Ryan has been helping me for years now and has never led me astray!

For sure should play!

If ping has a fit system for different heights of people from floor to hand. Then why is a green dot +1” even a thing? Shouldn’t it just be red dot or black dot or whatever?

There are some holes in your story OP, sorry but it all does not fit.

It sounds like you need a couple lessons with some standard equipment to get your bearings . You are in nautical terms “a ship lost at sea”. You need to find the North Star and look for some land.

You need to get back to a baseline or else you will keep guessing and guessing.

> @BB28403 said:

> If ping has a fit system for different heights of people from floor to hand. Then why is a green dot +1” even a thing? Shouldn’t it just be red dot or black dot or whatever?

> There are some holes in your story OP, sorry but it all does not fit.

> It sounds like you need a couple lessons with some standard equipment to get your bearings . You are in nautical terms “a ship lost at sea”. You need to find the North Star and look for some land.

> You need to get back to a baseline or else you will keep guessing and guessing.

I don't follow... The club he gave me was a Green Dot with a +1" DG 120 shaft. It was exactly the same length as my 7 iron (which I know for certain is an inch over) and had "green" written on the toe of the club. He watched me hit a couple with my current irons and built up the i210 and handed it to me. He noted that my current irons looked flat.

As far as taking a couple lessons with standard equipment... I'm not sure what you mean and how would that be helpful? I've been playing +1" irons for 12-13 years. Over that time I've taken many lessons and worked for a top 100 instructor who has seen me swing probably several thousand times by now. I've also been to countless demo days and club fittings and no one has ever told me I need to play standard length irons.

I'm not trying to discount what you are saying... Just trying to understand your point so I can make a fully informed decision on what to do.

> @FlyingLaw1 said:

> Hi Everyone!

> Have a bit of a conundrum... My current Irons (4-GW) are JPX 900 Forged. Shafts are C-taper 120g hard-stepped and are +1". Long story short I've been hitting the ball terribly this year. Some of it has been a swing change but on video things are improving... but the ball still feels like absolute junk coming off the face. Toed shots and EVERYTHING going right. Woods and wedges are fine... Just the irons. When I ordered these irons I simply ordered the same specs I had in my previous irons but they came from Mizuno REALLY flat so I had them bent last summer more upright but I don't think it was enough.

>

> I've really been thinking my irons are too flat. Well yesterday the regional Ping rep came to my course. He watched me hit a few with my irons and built me up an i210. Green dot +1" with Dynamic Gold 120. First swing was dead center. Shot after shot hit perfectly. The feel was miles above my irons as well.

>

> Went back to my 7 iron and the same weak toed junk. Was talking with him and he mentioned that my irons actually did look flat (without me saying anything to him about it) which agrees with what I have been thinking.

>

> My question is... I've got an appointment on Monday with my local fitter (he's really good) to have my lie angles checked... Should I consider switching shafts while I'm at it? Are the C-Tapers really that much more harsh than the DG 120 I hit? Or will changing the lie angle help me that much? Really was hoping to have my irons last me at least a couple more years...

>

> P.S. the Ping G410 17 degree hybrid is amazing! Also Ping does not make a driver that spins low enough for me...

Heck, I'd just pick up the Pings to the specs you tried and call it a day. They'll play well for years.

Just measured--standing against the wall with my tennis shoes on. I'm 37" floor to wrist. With no shoes on I'm a hair shy of 6'3." Based on that I'm either a green or white dot +1/2"... At least according to Ping.

For those of you following... First thank you for all your advice!!

Just got back from having my lie angles adjusted. As was suspected they were completely wrong. Most of them were Neutral and for some reason my 5 iron was 2 degrees FLAT. Ended up going with 3 degrees upright so they were pretty far off. Also adjusted my wedges--for some reason my 58 degree was bent to 59?? Haven't had a chance to hit them off turf yet but will this afternoon.

Plan now is to play them for a couple of weeks and see where things are. Hopefully won't need to get anything new but we will see!

> @FlyingLaw1 said:

> For those of you following... First thank you for all your advice!!

>

> Just got back from having my lie angles adjusted. As was suspected they were completely wrong. Most of them were Neutral and for some reason my 5 iron was 2 degrees FLAT. Ended up going with 3 degrees upright so they were pretty far off. Also adjusted my wedges--for some reason my 58 degree was bent to 59?? Haven't had a chance to hit them off turf yet but will this afternoon.

>

> Plan now is to play them for a couple of weeks and see where things are. Hopefully won't need to get anything new but we will see!

I think that is going to make a world of difference!

Sounds like either Mizuno built them wrong, or your pro shop ordered them wrong.

What did it say on the box and/or packing slip when the Mizuno's first arrived?

> @chachi said:

> > @FlyingLaw1 said:

> > For those of you following... First thank you for all your advice!!

> >

> > Just got back from having my lie angles adjusted. As was suspected they were completely wrong. Most of them were Neutral and for some reason my 5 iron was 2 degrees FLAT. Ended up going with 3 degrees upright so they were pretty far off. Also adjusted my wedges--for some reason my 58 degree was bent to 59?? Haven't had a chance to hit them off turf yet but will this afternoon.

> >

> > Plan now is to play them for a couple of weeks and see where things are. Hopefully won't need to get anything new but we will see!

>

> I think that is going to make a world of difference!

> Sounds like either Mizuno built them wrong, or your pro shop ordered them wrong.

> What did it say on the box and/or packing slip when the Mizuno's first arrived?

Truthfully can't remember what the packing slip said. But Someone messed up for sure. There's no way I should have ended up with clubs that were anything but slightly (at least) up right.

I played 9 yesterday evening and I can already tell there's a HUGE difference. I hit a 5 iron on a par 3 that was one of the best iron shots I've ever hit. Beautiful high ball that the wind never touched. I hit 4 greens which is more than I have in a long time and one of the greens I "missed" was because I lost my tee ball in the thick fescue rough we have this time of year. I ended up "hitting" the green on my second ball so you could kinda half count that? Another I green I missed was a 55 yard wedge shot that I completely chunked (tried to get cute). Hole 6 was one that was about 65 yards that I just carried too far and it barely trickled into the back fringe and hole 7 was a 9 iron I sucked off the front of the green--again barely into the fringe. There's NO way I could have come that close to hitting 5-6+ greens last week.

I'm still not completely sold that the C-Taper is still the shaft for me but at least I'm hitting the ball better! Going to run with what I've got for a couple of weeks and see how things go.