My fitting today

MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,660 ✭✭
edited Apr 20, 2019 10:52pm in WRX Club Techs #1

I went to a Titleist demo day at my local club. When I learned club-fitting, the single most important aspect was getting the SW right in order to improve the golfer's center face hits. Then we focussed on grip size in order to get the golfer's hands out of the swing. Today's fitting was all about shafts. I selected a clubhead I liked, and they went thru shaft after shaft until I felt comfortable. I asked about SW, and the fitter said they never worry about it. Grips were never discussed...just put on what you like. I don't have any confidence in this fitting at all.

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Comments

  • platgofplatgof platgof ClubWRX Posts: 1,432 ClubWRX

    They fit you into their parameters, not yours. So the chance to get a good fitting would be hard to do. Swing weight should always be placed in the path of the ball not in other areas. So only one iron manufacturer does that.

    GBB Fusion HT 13.5
    F9 5-6 WD
    F9 7-8 WD
    OS 5 & 6 Hybrid
    P790 5-PW
    Glide AW, SW, LW
    TM Spider Pro Red C/S
    B330RX
  • Lefty431Lefty431 Members Posts: 1,070 ✭✭

    @platgof said:
    They fit you into their parameters, not yours. So the chance to get a good fitting would be hard to do. Swing weight should always be placed in the path of the ball not in other areas. So only one iron manufacturer does that.

    Which manufacturer is that?

    Driver: 9* Callaway Rogue sub zero w/ hzrdus yellow 6.5
    3w: 15* Callaway epic w/ aldila rogue 110 s flex
    Hybrid: 19* Mizuno Jpx 900 w/ fujikura s flex
    DI:  Adams dhy 21* w/ aldilla green S flex
    Irons: Mizuno mp 18 sc 5-pw w/ Nippon modus 3 120x
    Wedges: Vokey sm7 raw 50 F, 55 S, 60 M w/ dynamic gold black s400
    Putter: Scotty Cameron newport 3 w/ super stroke
  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,660 ✭✭
    edited Apr 21, 2019 1:58am #4

    I’m a certified “Class A” club fitter and former Wishon advocate. When I was in the business, I did a heck of a lot better job than what I experienced today. This just seemed like smoke and mirrors and nothing remotely like real analysis. Much of what they said about shaft performance was utter nonsense.

  • tatertottatertot Members Posts: 4,378 ✭✭

    I have heard from more than one fitter that grip size doesn't matter, it's only about comfort and preference. Not saying it's right, just that it's not unusual in the industry.

    Driver: Adams Speedline Fast 11, 9.5*
    Hybrid: Titleist 816H1, 19*
    Long Iron: Ping iE1, 26*
    Mid Iron: Ping iE1, 32*
    Short Iron: Ping iE1, 41*
    Wedge: Ping iE1, 45*
    Gap: Ping Glide SS, 52*
    Lob: Ping Glide ES, 60*
    Putter: Yes Callie Mid, 41"
    Ball: Bridgestone Tour B XS
    Bag: Sun Mountain Swift X
  • gdb99gdb99 Members Posts: 1,626 ✭✭

    These free Titleist Thursday fittings are, in my opinion, not for a real club fitting. They are for the company to get their clubs tried by possible customers. I mean, they are only 30 min. long. I have been to 2 of them. At one of them, I knew the fitter. I hadn't seen him in awhile, and we spent most of the time catching up. I never even hit some of the irons I wanted to try.
    The other one was for driver, and I never really felt comfortable with the end result. No numbers were given, and he brought the next guy over after 20 minutes.

    Cobra King LTD, Black Tie Regular flex
    Titleist 917F 16.5, Aldila Rogue Black 70 stiff
    Cleveland DST 3 hybrid, Diamana Redboard regular
    Mizuno MP-4's
    Vokey SM7 54M
    Odyssey #2
  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,590 ✭✭

    @MountainGoat said:
    I’m a certified “Class A” club fitter and former Wishon advocate. When I was in the business, I did a heck of a lot better job than what I experienced today. This just seemed like smoke and mirrors and nothing remotely like real analysis. Much of what they said about shaft performance was utter nonsense.

    TS3 Brah!! - Crossfield
    I think you learned something valuable today . If you get a job at Titleist your job would not be very hard! Haha
    Ignorance is bliss right?

  • kostujkostuj Members Posts: 14 ✭✭

    And now you, like countless others in more recent times, have learned why the clubfitting industry has become such a laughable joke that continues to contribute to the diminishing popularity and reputation of and participation in the game.

    Some might chime in and attempt to say that a demo day is not a real clubfitting and that you need to search out an entity that is more comprehensive. But more comprehensive entities are commonly even worse than demo days. Obsessing about the shaft as being the most critical club component is one (though hardly the only) telltale sign of an incompetent clubfitting process.

    Fancy launch monitors are merely glorified devices for fitting clubs based on ball travel results. And they have turned the heads of gullible golfers (and clubfitters alike) so easily that this has resulted in the pitiful trade not even knowing how to fit a club to a golfer's swing anymore. (At least there was some semblance of some people able to do this before launch monitors helped to reveal how truly bad the trade currently is overall).

    There are people that have posted here as many as 20,000 times or more and yet still have no idea whatsoever of what swingweighting even is and/or how to fit grip size so a golfer can accomplish his/her maximum swing speed and control. Unless and until this (rightly) ridiculed industry is retrained and reeducated essentially from the ground up with competent clubfitting theories and practices, the whole game will continue to move more toward complete extinction, guaranteed.

    And with all due respect, this includes relearning what you previously learned in order to become a "Class A" clubfitter (whatever that is supposed to signify). The swingweighting and grip sizing procedures as you learned and described them in order to gain your certification are dead wrong. Yes, the clubfitting trade is this bad from top to bottom, no exaggeration needed.

  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,660 ✭✭

    You were doing fine until the last paragraph.

    "Class A" is a competence designation awarded by the Professional Clubmaker's Society, which was the professional organization that operated when I was in the business. It involved written and practical tests developed by Tom Wishon, who knows more about club fitting than most of the people on this forum put together.

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,590 ✭✭

    @MountainGoat said:
    You were doing fine until the last paragraph.

    "Class A" is a competence designation awarded by the Professional Clubmaker's Society, which was the professional organization that operated when I was in the business. It involved written and practical tests developed by Tom Wishon, who knows more about club fitting than most of the people on this forum put together.

    Mountaingoat, what are your thoughts on the golfdigest top 100 club fitters?

  • trhodetrhode Fitter / Builder Members Posts: 1,961 ✭✭

    Demo days are not fittings.

  • platgofplatgof platgof ClubWRX Posts: 1,432 ClubWRX
    edited Apr 22, 2019 1:15am #12

    @Lefty431 said:

    @platgof said:
    They fit you into their parameters, not yours. So the chance to get a good fitting would be hard to do. Swing weight should always be placed in the path of the ball not in other areas. So only one iron manufacturer does that.

    Which manufacturer is that?

    PXG is the only one I know of that has interchangeable weights in the heads of the irons. This should be standard in my opinion on all clubs to customize them. There may be others like CGB. Also some Wishon irons have a swing weight system that is easily adjusted as well.

    GBB Fusion HT 13.5
    F9 5-6 WD
    F9 7-8 WD
    OS 5 & 6 Hybrid
    P790 5-PW
    Glide AW, SW, LW
    TM Spider Pro Red C/S
    B330RX
  • MountainKingMountainKing Members Posts: 1,447 ✭✭

    @MountainGoat said:
    I went to a Titleist demo day at my local club. When I learned club-fitting, the single most important aspect was getting the SW right in order to improve the golfer's center face hits. Then we focussed on grip size in order to get the golfer's hands out of the swing. Today's fitting was all about shafts. I selected a clubhead I liked, and they went thru shaft after shaft until I felt comfortable. I asked about SW, and the fitter said they never worry about it. Grips were never discussed...just put on what you like. I don't have any confidence in this fitting at all.

    If you're a class A fitter then why are you wasting time being fit by others when you could do it yourself the way you want it done?

    Taylormade M1 8.5* Fujikura Pro Tour Spec 73x
    Taylormade Stage 2 HL Accra FX 300
    Callaway Razr Tour Hybrid 19* Nunchuk
    Rocketbladez Tour 4-PW TT X100
    Tour Preferred 50/54 S400
    TM HI Toe 58 ATV S400
    TM Itsy Bitsy

  • BrianMcGBrianMcG Members Posts: 2,264 ✭✭

    Sounds like an average demo day.

    Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
    Bobby: I play because I love it.
    Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.
  • TKSTKS Members Posts: 203 ✭✭

    @kostuj said:
    And now you, like countless others in more recent times, have learned why the clubfitting industry has become such a laughable joke that continues to contribute to the diminishing popularity and reputation of and participation in the game.

    Some might chime in and attempt to say that a demo day is not a real clubfitting and that you need to search out an entity that is more comprehensive. But more comprehensive entities are commonly even worse than demo days. Obsessing about the shaft as being the most critical club component is one (though hardly the only) telltale sign of an incompetent clubfitting process.

    Fancy launch monitors are merely glorified devices for fitting clubs based on ball travel results. And they have turned the heads of gullible golfers (and clubfitters alike) so easily that this has resulted in the pitiful trade not even knowing how to fit a club to a golfer's swing anymore. (At least there was some semblance of some people able to do this before launch monitors helped to reveal how truly bad the trade currently is overall).

    There are people that have posted here as many as 20,000 times or more and yet still have no idea whatsoever of what swingweighting even is and/or how to fit grip size so a golfer can accomplish his/her maximum swing speed and control. Unless and until this (rightly) ridiculed industry is retrained and reeducated essentially from the ground up with competent clubfitting theories and practices, the whole game will continue to move more toward complete extinction, guaranteed.

    And with all due respect, this includes relearning what you previously learned in order to become a "Class A" clubfitter (whatever that is supposed to signify). The swingweighting and grip sizing procedures as you learned and described them in order to gain your certification are dead wrong. Yes, the clubfitting trade is this bad from top to bottom, no exaggeration needed.

    Hey K,
    Walk me through the grip issue as you see it when fitting right now I mainly recommend grips for comfort over anything thing else and am open to learning and understanding your views - no arguments from me only civility and learning. I do fit for swing weight after head choice and shaft length/material - gotta get the impact in face center!
    All the best,
    Tk

    All Wishon, all the time:
    919THI 11* Black Driver, Red Shaft - S
    919F/D, Black Shaft
    775 18* hyb, Interflexx Shaft
    590 4iron, Black hybd Shaft
    5-SW Sterlings S300's
    PCF Micro 58*
    S2R #5 putter Double Bend Shaft
    Softer Urethane balls - too many to list
  • kostujkostuj Members Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited Apr 24, 2019 1:07am #16

    @MountainGoat said:
    You were doing fine until the last paragraph.

    "Class A" is a competence designation awarded by the Professional Clubmaker's Society, which was the professional organization that operated when I was in the business. It involved written and practical tests developed by Tom Wishon, who knows more about club fitting than most of the people on this forum put together.

    The deterioration of the clubfitting industry to the pathetic state it is currently in might seem somewhat abrupt to certain people, but it has actually been occurring over a very long time already.

    And with due respect to the man, Wishon, probably more than any other single individual, has contributed to long, slow declines in the performance and reputation of the clubfitting trade as a whole, declines that started or accelerated when his brand of clubfitting material began to be released.

    He started with some of what (Ralph) Maltby began, but instead of improving on it Wishon took much of it in a backward direction based on his own experiences. Maybe the man is the greatest clubhead designer that ever lived. But that is primarily a totally different, full-time occupation in and of itself than that of clubfitting. And it is a plain fact that Wishon is not very good at knowing clubfitting.

    As far as the PCS, I vaguely recall that it went bust largely because someone embezzled its funds, but it was already falling apart anyway mainly because of the flawed clubfitting instruction it provided. (I have no first-hand knowledge about how much if any of the organization's materials were developed based on Wishon's work, so I will have to defer to you about that).

    But I am informing you here that if you practiced swingweighting and grip-sizing techniques the way you learned them from the PCS and as you described them in this thread, then you were right in the middle of an extended downturn that contributed to the delinquency of the clubfitting trade, eventually resulting in where the pitiful industry sits today.

    Post edited by kostuj on
  • GolfrnutGolfrnut Members Posts: 7,158 ✭✭
    edited Apr 23, 2019 3:51am #17

    @kostuj said:

    @MountainGoat said:
    You were doing fine until the last paragraph.

    "Class A" is a competence designation awarded by the Professional Clubmaker's Society, which was the professional organization that operated when I was in the business. It involved written and practical tests developed by Tom Wishon, who knows more about club fitting than most of the people on this forum put together.

    The deterioration of the clubfitting industry to the pathetic state it is currently in today might seem somewhat abrupt to certain people, but it has actually been occurring over a very long time already.

    And with due respect to the man, Wishon, probably more than any other single individual, has contributed to long, slow declines in the performance and reputation of the clubfitting trade as a whole, declines that started or accelerated when his brand of clubfitting material began to be released.

    He took some of what (Ralph) Maltby began, but instead of improving on it Wishon took much of it in a backward direction based on his own experiences. Maybe the man is the greatest clubhead designer that ever lived. But that is primarily a totally different, full-time occupation in and of itself than that of clubfitting. And it is a plain fact that Wishon is not very good at knowing clubfitting.

    As far as the PCS, I vaguely recall that it went bust largely because someone embezzled from them, but it would have eventually fallen apart anyway because of the flawed clubfitting instruction it provided. (I have no first-hand knowledge about how much if any of the organization's materials were developed based on Wishon's work, so I will have to defer to you about that).

    But I am informing you here that if you practiced swingweighting and grip-sizing techniques the way you learned them from the PCS and as you described them in this thread, then you were right in the middle of an extended downturn that contributed to the delinquency of the clubfitting trade, eventually resulting in where the pitiful industry sits today.

    So it’s safe to assume you have a very extensive resume to share with us that backs up your superior knowledge of the clubfitting industry and proper techniques? Do share.

    TM Supertri V2 w/ Matrix Ozik Code 6.2
    Callaway 3Deep w/ 73 BB  
    Taylormade P790 2 UDI w/ DG 105R 
    Taylormade P790 3 iron w/ DG AMT White R300
    4-PW Nike VR Pro MBs w/ DG AMT White R300
    Callaway MD3 52* & 58* PM grind (both X100 8 iron SS)
    Odyssey MXM 1W
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,531 ✭✭

    @tatertot said:
    I have heard from more than one fitter that grip size doesn't matter, it's only about comfort and preference. Not saying it's right, just that it's not unusual in the industry.

    Yes it is, but they should have told you that Grips is part of TOTAL Weight, and the size and shape does matter for how we performe with that club, even if we can boil it down to comfort. If its NOT comfortable it want work....

    Grips is where a fitting should START, and that grip should be used from now on, but you want find many places who does that.

    Next is play length, and it seems like they took it on"walk over", then we are no longer talking Club fitting, but club testing.

    1. is Total weight, and since we already have the right grip included, its a matter of SHAFT weight
      For IRONS we should also look at shaft weight type, since that makes a HUGE different for TOTAL weight in both ends.
      (Descending vs Constant vs Ascending wgt shafts)

    2. is Balance or tune up of head weight, but most advanced fitters "multitask" here, and take 3-4 as one operation...

    3. FEEL,

    4. Dispersion
      (both is related to flex and profile)

    5. Ball flight - a LOFT at impact question - use static loft to dial in.
      Ideal is depending on wanted ball flight and if we are going for max carry or max total, a good mix of them, playing conditions etc...

    But a DEMO day is not a real club fitting appointment, but most is not any better than this, its a test of clubs, its NOT club fitting

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,590 ✭✭

    @kostuj said:

    @MountainGoat said:
    You were doing fine until the last paragraph.

    "Class A" is a competence designation awarded by the Professional Clubmaker's Society, which was the professional organization that operated when I was in the business. It involved written and practical tests developed by Tom Wishon, who knows more about club fitting than most of the people on this forum put together.

    The deterioration of the clubfitting industry to the pathetic state it is currently in today might seem somewhat abrupt to certain people, but it has actually been occurring over a very long time already.

    And with due respect to the man, Wishon, probably more than any other single individual, has contributed to long, slow declines in the performance and reputation of the clubfitting trade as a whole, declines that started or accelerated when his brand of clubfitting material began to be released.

    He took some of what (Ralph) Maltby began, but instead of improving on it Wishon took much of it in a backward direction based on his own experiences. Maybe the man is the greatest clubhead designer that ever lived. But that is primarily a totally different, full-time occupation in and of itself than that of clubfitting. And it is a plain fact that Wishon is not very good at knowing clubfitting.

    As far as the PCS, I vaguely recall that it went bust largely because someone embezzled from them, but it would have eventually fallen apart anyway because of the flawed clubfitting instruction it provided. (I have no first-hand knowledge about how much if any of the organization's materials were developed based on Wishon's work, so I will have to defer to you about that).

    But I am informing you here that if you practiced swingweighting and grip-sizing techniques the way you learned them from the PCS and as you described them in this thread, then you were right in the middle of an extended downturn that contributed to the delinquency of the clubfitting trade, eventually resulting in where the pitiful industry sits today.

    Outsider looking in here . Wishon never struck me as very impressive.
    I think the golf industry is full of snake oil salesmen. And what they say makes absolutely zero sense and they throw out names like “I know Nicklaus and he always said this ...” , then you know they are blowing smoke up your ...
    Nowadays it would be “I know what equipment tiger used in 1999...”

  • phatchrisrulesphatchrisrules Members Posts: 1,845 ✭✭
    edited Apr 23, 2019 12:10pm #20

    @kostuj said:
    And now you, like countless others in more recent times, have learned why the clubfitting industry has become such a laughable joke that continues to contribute to the diminishing popularity and reputation of and participation in the game.

    Some might chime in and attempt to say that a demo day is not a real clubfitting and that you need to search out an entity that is more comprehensive. But more comprehensive entities are commonly even worse than demo days. Obsessing about the shaft as being the most critical club component is one (though hardly the only) telltale sign of an incompetent clubfitting process.

    Fancy launch monitors are merely glorified devices for fitting clubs based on ball travel results. And they have turned the heads of gullible golfers (and clubfitters alike) so easily that this has resulted in the pitiful trade not even knowing how to fit a club to a golfer's swing anymore. (At least there was some semblance of some people able to do this before launch monitors helped to reveal how truly bad the trade currently is overall).

    There are people that have posted here as many as 20,000 times or more and yet still have no idea whatsoever of what swingweighting even is and/or how to fit grip size so a golfer can accomplish his/her maximum swing speed and control. Unless and until this (rightly) ridiculed industry is retrained and reeducated essentially from the ground up with competent clubfitting theories and practices, the whole game will continue to move more toward complete extinction, guaranteed.

    And with all due respect, this includes relearning what you previously learned in order to become a "Class A" clubfitter (whatever that is supposed to signify). The swingweighting and grip sizing procedures as you learned and described them in order to gain your certification are dead wrong. Yes, the clubfitting trade is this bad from top to bottom, no exaggeration needed.

    If you don't think a shafts balance point and weight can help a player time and/or deliver a strike a bit better you really don't understand what they do. I'm not saying it's the most important thing but to brush it off completely shows just as much incompetence as someone who you are rallying against. If you also think that someone eyeballing a shot is going to be able to tell you someone's swing speed, launch, and delivery mechanics, then that is a little scary. I cannot tell you the amount of amateurs I have had come through my shop with hopelessly horrific clubs for them that have been eyeball fit by a "pro" or "instructor".

    Taylormade M5 9* - Trying a couple of shafts
    Callaway Rogue SZ 13.5* - Diamana Thump 75F
    Callaway Rogue SZ 18* - Diamana Thump 85F
    Mizuno CLK 21* - Tensei CK Pro White 90H
    New Level 1031 Black 5-PW - Dynamic Gold 105 Black Onyx
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 50/SS, 54/ES, 58/ES - Dynamic Gold 105 Black Onyx
    Bettinardi BB0 "Gotta Sting" Prototype 1 of 1 - Stability
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,531 ✭✭

    @phatchrisrules said:

    @kostuj said:
    And now you, like countless others in more recent times, have learned why the clubfitting industry has become such a laughable joke that continues to contribute to the diminishing popularity and reputation of and participation in the game.

    Some might chime in and attempt to say that a demo day is not a real clubfitting and that you need to search out an entity that is more comprehensive. But more comprehensive entities are commonly even worse than demo days. Obsessing about the shaft as being the most critical club component is one (though hardly the only) telltale sign of an incompetent clubfitting process.

    Fancy launch monitors are merely glorified devices for fitting clubs based on ball travel results. And they have turned the heads of gullible golfers (and clubfitters alike) so easily that this has resulted in the pitiful trade not even knowing how to fit a club to a golfer's swing anymore. (At least there was some semblance of some people able to do this before launch monitors helped to reveal how truly bad the trade currently is overall).

    There are people that have posted here as many as 20,000 times or more and yet still have no idea whatsoever of what swingweighting even is and/or how to fit grip size so a golfer can accomplish his/her maximum swing speed and control. Unless and until this (rightly) ridiculed industry is retrained and reeducated essentially from the ground up with competent clubfitting theories and practices, the whole game will continue to move more toward complete extinction, guaranteed.

    And with all due respect, this includes relearning what you previously learned in order to become a "Class A" clubfitter (whatever that is supposed to signify). The swingweighting and grip sizing procedures as you learned and described them in order to gain your certification are dead wrong. Yes, the clubfitting trade is this bad from top to bottom, no exaggeration needed.

    If you don't think a shafts balance point and weight can help a player time and/or deliver a strike a bit better you really don't understand what they do. I'm not saying it's the most important thing but to brush it off completely shows just as much incompetence as someone who you are rallying against. If you also think that someone eyeballing a shot is going to be able to tell you someone's swing speed, launch, and delivery mechanics, then that is a little scary. I cannot tell you the amount of amateurs I have had come through my shop with hopelessly horrific clubs for them that have been eyeball fit by a "pro" or "instructor".

    Im not sure what Kostuj mean is right, but he has a point thats hard to ignore, because the "Club fitting industry" in general is one big scandal, MOST places has no clue about what they are doing, but im not able to tell "how or when it went wrong".... it was all a big mess when i came into it all, and the reason for why i started with club techs myself. ive seen a slight improvement over the years, but not much since most places still ignores the basics, and then they would never be angle to build clubs thats actually is optimized for the player.

    The explanation i have for why it is like this,. is the price level the marked is willing to pay.
    The education and tools needed to make this right dont come for free, but the playing public who is willing to pay what it cost is very small, but its also a lack of pride here, and that part is something i never understood....why do something you are no good at doing? Short weekend classes in club fitting or club making WANT make you a good club fitter or Club maker, it takes WAY more then what this classes can offer you if you really want to make it.

    My own "papers" comes from Mitchell Golf Equipment Institute, and back then it was a 2 week class, but what is 2 weeks? (its NOTHING compared to whats needed)
    You get the basics of a lot, but not all, but NO deeper understanding of anything, so this is kind of like a "static fitting", it gives a good starting point, while the education itself last a lifetime, it never ends, so those who think they are done and ready when they have a diploma in their hand could not be more wrong.

  • indianalawnguyindianalawnguy Members Posts: 433 ✭✭

    @tatertot said:
    I have heard from more than one fitter that grip size doesn't matter, it's only about comfort and preference. Not saying it's right, just that it's not unusual in the industry.

    Go hit a driver with a jumbo max(Dechambeau) grip on it and get back to me! Its like swinging a shovel!

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,070 ✭✭
    edited Apr 24, 2019 8:02am #23

    sorry - accident post

  • phatchrisrulesphatchrisrules Members Posts: 1,845 ✭✭

    @Howard Jones said:

    @phatchrisrules said:

    @kostuj said:
    And now you, like countless others in more recent times, have learned why the clubfitting industry has become such a laughable joke that continues to contribute to the diminishing popularity and reputation of and participation in the game.

    Some might chime in and attempt to say that a demo day is not a real clubfitting and that you need to search out an entity that is more comprehensive. But more comprehensive entities are commonly even worse than demo days. Obsessing about the shaft as being the most critical club component is one (though hardly the only) telltale sign of an incompetent clubfitting process.

    Fancy launch monitors are merely glorified devices for fitting clubs based on ball travel results. And they have turned the heads of gullible golfers (and clubfitters alike) so easily that this has resulted in the pitiful trade not even knowing how to fit a club to a golfer's swing anymore. (At least there was some semblance of some people able to do this before launch monitors helped to reveal how truly bad the trade currently is overall).

    There are people that have posted here as many as 20,000 times or more and yet still have no idea whatsoever of what swingweighting even is and/or how to fit grip size so a golfer can accomplish his/her maximum swing speed and control. Unless and until this (rightly) ridiculed industry is retrained and reeducated essentially from the ground up with competent clubfitting theories and practices, the whole game will continue to move more toward complete extinction, guaranteed.

    And with all due respect, this includes relearning what you previously learned in order to become a "Class A" clubfitter (whatever that is supposed to signify). The swingweighting and grip sizing procedures as you learned and described them in order to gain your certification are dead wrong. Yes, the clubfitting trade is this bad from top to bottom, no exaggeration needed.

    If you don't think a shafts balance point and weight can help a player time and/or deliver a strike a bit better you really don't understand what they do. I'm not saying it's the most important thing but to brush it off completely shows just as much incompetence as someone who you are rallying against. If you also think that someone eyeballing a shot is going to be able to tell you someone's swing speed, launch, and delivery mechanics, then that is a little scary. I cannot tell you the amount of amateurs I have had come through my shop with hopelessly horrific clubs for them that have been eyeball fit by a "pro" or "instructor".

    Im not sure what Kostuj mean is right, but he has a point thats hard to ignore, because the "Club fitting industry" in general is one big scandal, MOST places has no clue about what they are doing, but im not able to tell "how or when it went wrong".... it was all a big mess when i came into it all, and the reason for why i started with club techs myself. ive seen a slight improvement over the years, but not much since most places still ignores the basics, and then they would never be angle to build clubs thats actually is optimized for the player.

    The explanation i have for why it is like this,. is the price level the marked is willing to pay.
    The education and tools needed to make this right dont come for free, but the playing public who is willing to pay what it cost is very small, but its also a lack of pride here, and that part is something i never understood....why do something you are no good at doing? Short weekend classes in club fitting or club making WANT make you a good club fitter or Club maker, it takes WAY more then what this classes can offer you if you really want to make it.

    My own "papers" comes from Mitchell Golf Equipment Institute, and back then it was a 2 week class, but what is 2 weeks? (its NOTHING compared to whats needed)
    You get the basics of a lot, but not all, but NO deeper understanding of anything, so this is kind of like a "static fitting", it gives a good starting point, while the education itself last a lifetime, it never ends, so those who think they are done and ready when they have a diploma in their hand could not be more wrong.

    Totally agree, Howard. There are a lot of places that have no idea what they are doing. I don't think there is ever going to be a place that is perfect either, as a lot of golf is trial and error and feel orientated, but the good places know how to balance what the player feels vs. what the player needs and build it to those expectations so the club performs as advertised.

    Taylormade M5 9* - Trying a couple of shafts
    Callaway Rogue SZ 13.5* - Diamana Thump 75F
    Callaway Rogue SZ 18* - Diamana Thump 85F
    Mizuno CLK 21* - Tensei CK Pro White 90H
    New Level 1031 Black 5-PW - Dynamic Gold 105 Black Onyx
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 50/SS, 54/ES, 58/ES - Dynamic Gold 105 Black Onyx
    Bettinardi BB0 "Gotta Sting" Prototype 1 of 1 - Stability
  • TKSTKS Members Posts: 203 ✭✭

    While the snarky and defensive tone from Kostuj is offputting, I would agree with the state of the "fitting industry" the retail shops with the high overhead/high-dollar situation is not helping matters. I'm a parttime/moonlight fitter but when I start working with a client I let them know that I am now their fitter and equipment consultant - but I only work with Wishon's designs for new club builds - I just know his systems inside and out and can take care of 95% of most peoples needs with his designs. His shaft-lock and handpick/bending service keeps my overhead low (for the time being). I'm off to my best start in the 5 yrs this year.

    All Wishon, all the time:
    919THI 11* Black Driver, Red Shaft - S
    919F/D, Black Shaft
    775 18* hyb, Interflexx Shaft
    590 4iron, Black hybd Shaft
    5-SW Sterlings S300's
    PCF Micro 58*
    S2R #5 putter Double Bend Shaft
    Softer Urethane balls - too many to list
  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,645 ✭✭

    Unfortunately, most golfers don't understand that swingweight is a misleading, inaccurate and somewhat vague measurement. Weight is hugely important, particularly impact dispersion.

    But for these fitters using swingweight, they really don't notice much of a difference. The measurement is all goofy and thus they'll see some golfers hit it better at D-1 with say some T-MB's and then hit it better with some AP2 at D-4. In essence, they are basically just fitting you for length and shaft (and which head you like the best).

    Dig deeper into MOI instead of swingweight and the measurement makes much more sense and is much more accurate and there's a relationship between the club's MOI and the impact dispersion for each golfer.

    It's something I've talked to a few equipment designers about. They readily agree that the heft of the club is very important in terms of impact dispersion along with launch and spin (weight distribution changes the clubs Center of Mass). I really think this is something that OEM's have dragged their feet on and there's room to see significant improvements in performance when OEM's can pair the club's heft and the distribution of the weight together with the golfer's swing.

    Just my .02

    RH

  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,660 ✭✭
    edited Apr 24, 2019 11:04pm #27

    I hate to argue with Mr Hunt, but to say that swing weight is misleading, inaccurate and vague is not really correct. Let me be clear from the outset that I am an MOI advocate, myself, and have been for at least 15 years. I'm still playing an MOI-matched set that I built in 2004. However, that is not to completely discount SW. The measure of a club over a fixed fulcrum is a valid scientific measure, just as valid as total weight and MOI. It is a measure of club balance and while imperfect, it has some value. MOI is imperfect as well, as anyone who has tried to match steel-shafted irons to graphite-shafted woods will attest. Even Wishon acknowledges that. My only point in my original post is that these "demo days" fitters aren't dealing with club balance at all. They're just pushing shafts as the "engine of the club" and some vague notion of 'technology'. I can do more to properly fit a customer by adjusting balance, either SW or MOI or both, than I can with almost any other aspect of the club, and they are completely overlooking that aspect.

    (Owing to increased operating costs, I have had to increase the value of my comments to $0.03.)

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,590 ✭✭

    @Stuart_G said:
    sorry - accident post

    This will not be tolerated!
    Lol kidding

  • kostujkostuj Members Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019 7:43pm #29

    @Golfrnut said:

    @kostuj said:

    @MountainGoat said:
    You were doing fine until the last paragraph.

    "Class A" is a competence designation awarded by the Professional Clubmaker's Society, which was the professional organization that operated when I was in the business. It involved written and practical tests developed by Tom Wishon, who knows more about club fitting than most of the people on this forum put together.

    The deterioration of the clubfitting industry to the pathetic state it is currently in today might seem somewhat abrupt to certain people, but it has actually been occurring over a very long time already.

    And with due respect to the man, Wishon, probably more than any other single individual, has contributed to long, slow declines in the performance and reputation of the clubfitting trade as a whole, declines that started or accelerated when his brand of clubfitting material began to be released.

    He took some of what (Ralph) Maltby began, but instead of improving on it Wishon took much of it in a backward direction based on his own experiences. Maybe the man is the greatest clubhead designer that ever lived. But that is primarily a totally different, full-time occupation in and of itself than that of clubfitting. And it is a plain fact that Wishon is not very good at knowing clubfitting.

    As far as the PCS, I vaguely recall that it went bust largely because someone embezzled from them, but it would have eventually fallen apart anyway because of the flawed clubfitting instruction it provided. (I have no first-hand knowledge about how much if any of the organization's materials were developed based on Wishon's work, so I will have to defer to you about that).

    But I am informing you here that if you practiced swingweighting and grip-sizing techniques the way you learned them from the PCS and as you described them in this thread, then you were right in the middle of an extended downturn that contributed to the delinquency of the clubfitting trade, eventually resulting in where the pitiful industry sits today.

    So it’s safe to assume you have a very extensive resume to share with us that backs up your superior knowledge of the clubfitting industry and proper techniques? Do share.

    The bulk of my work that I have decided to display to this point is viewable. Just not here, as various terms of the forum actually discourage the posting of any original, corrected, and advanced materials (and it is working, at least for me) unless one is a paying sponsor of the site. So in the end it is hardly an open and unbiased forum, which is fairly easy to see.

    Among these terms, for all practical purposes anything posted becomes virtually owned by the site. This is no big deal for the types of rehashed materials that have been around seemingly forever, but a different matter altogether for new material capable of guiding the industry forward. So regarding sharing any original work directly on the forum, especially information that technically corrects past erroneous materials, currently I cannot do that despite a strong desire to help poor golfers (and clubfitters).

    It is admittedly a frequent struggle trying to decide whether to post any original matter directly on this and/or similar sites to publicize it more quickly (but with a potentially very heavy price to pay of gravely diluting any intellectual property rights), or refrain from posting any original matter directly on such sites, likely further delaying any spreading of my work.

    The latter has won out thus far and I sense no immediate changes. Under the circumstances, I mostly limit my forum comments to rehashed information already very commonly known (some of this rehashed information is indeed correct) and/or pointing out where the industry is flawed for example yet stopping short of directly posting any required solutions. With that and within the scope of my work and research results, I am justly abiding by the published terms devised by the forum site.

    If you are content with the current state of the industry and the ongoing inaccurate forum postings (made by people who have helped make a mess of a situation that already existed in golf even worse over time with such public comments), then so be it.

    But if you desire corrected, advanced information and solutions that the industry needs very badly right now and that can help move the game forward rather than backward, then you will need to reference a separate site for that or suggest any other acceptable alternatives if hoping to see any of that information posted directly here. Any honest feedback is appreciated.

    Post edited by kostuj on
  • kostujkostuj Members Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019 7:45pm #30

    @phatchrisrules said:

    @kostuj said:
    And now you, like countless others in more recent times, have learned why the clubfitting industry has become such a laughable joke that continues to contribute to the diminishing popularity and reputation of and participation in the game.

    Some might chime in and attempt to say that a demo day is not a real clubfitting and that you need to search out an entity that is more comprehensive. But more comprehensive entities are commonly even worse than demo days. Obsessing about the shaft as being the most critical club component is one (though hardly the only) telltale sign of an incompetent clubfitting process.

    Fancy launch monitors are merely glorified devices for fitting clubs based on ball travel results. And they have turned the heads of gullible golfers (and clubfitters alike) so easily that this has resulted in the pitiful trade not even knowing how to fit a club to a golfer's swing anymore. (At least there was some semblance of some people able to do this before launch monitors helped to reveal how truly bad the trade currently is overall).

    There are people that have posted here as many as 20,000 times or more and yet still have no idea whatsoever of what swingweighting even is and/or how to fit grip size so a golfer can accomplish his/her maximum swing speed and control. Unless and until this (rightly) ridiculed industry is retrained and reeducated essentially from the ground up with competent clubfitting theories and practices, the whole game will continue to move more toward complete extinction, guaranteed.

    And with all due respect, this includes relearning what you previously learned in order to become a "Class A" clubfitter (whatever that is supposed to signify). The swingweighting and grip sizing procedures as you learned and described them in order to gain your certification are dead wrong. Yes, the clubfitting trade is this bad from top to bottom, no exaggeration needed.

    If you don't think a shafts balance point and weight can help a player time and/or deliver a strike a bit better you really don't understand what they do. I'm not saying it's the most important thing but to brush it off completely shows just as much incompetence as someone who you are rallying against. If you also think that someone eyeballing a shot is going to be able to tell you someone's swing speed, launch, and delivery mechanics, then that is a little scary. I cannot tell you the amount of amateurs I have had come through my shop with hopelessly horrific clubs for them that have been eyeball fit by a "pro" or "instructor".

    Your post pretty much exemplifies everything that I originally stated.

    I do not know what brought about your comments specifically surrounding shaft weight and balance point, as I never stated that the shaft and/or certain shaft parameters should be completely brushed off or anything even close to that.

    But based on your perception and comments, anyone capable of fitting a golf club to a golfer's swing knows which other club specification(s) needs to be adjusted and in what manner(s) in order to help bring out the golfer's best swinging when weights and/or balance points of various shafts differ. This is rather elementary clubfitting knowledge and universal in nature.

    Then again, if one does not really know how to fit a club to a golfer's swing, and one is in a different world of really only knowing how to use a launch monitor and its numbers to basically just alter ball travel results (the strike as you term it is merely an element of ball travel result), then naturally one (actually an entire trade here) would not likely possess the education and skill needed to enact the above.

    It is funny (yet sad) how most appear to agree about how much the clubfitting industry is generally stinking up the whole game currently, that is unless of course they are referring to themselves, where then everybody is an exception and never part of the problem.

    And when I state that the entire trade from top to bottom desperately needs to be reeducated and retrained basically from the ground up if it ever hopes to possibly recover and grow, the statement is blindly ignored and so no progress can be made.

    Post edited by kostuj on
  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Members Posts: 5,696 ✭✭
    edited Apr 29, 2019 6:39am #31

    @kostuj said:

    @phatchrisrules said:

    @kostuj said:
    And now you, like countless others in more recent times, have learned why the clubfitting industry has become such a laughable joke that continues to contribute to the diminishing popularity and reputation of and participation in the game.

    Some might chime in and attempt to say that a demo day is not a real clubfitting and that you need to search out an entity that is more comprehensive. But more comprehensive entities are commonly even worse than demo days. Obsessing about the shaft as being the most critical club component is one (though hardly the only) telltale sign of an incompetent clubfitting process.

    Fancy launch monitors are merely glorified devices for fitting clubs based on ball travel results. And they have turned the heads of gullible golfers (and clubfitters alike) so easily that this has resulted in the pitiful trade not even knowing how to fit a club to a golfer's swing anymore. (At least there was some semblance of some people able to do this before launch monitors helped to reveal how truly bad the trade currently is overall).

    There are people that have posted here as many as 20,000 times or more and yet still have no idea whatsoever of what swingweighting even is and/or how to fit grip size so a golfer can accomplish his/her maximum swing speed and control. Unless and until this (rightly) ridiculed industry is retrained and reeducated essentially from the ground up with competent clubfitting theories and practices, the whole game will continue to move more toward complete extinction, guaranteed.

    And with all due respect, this includes relearning what you previously learned in order to become a "Class A" clubfitter (whatever that is supposed to signify). The swingweighting and grip sizing procedures as you learned and described them in order to gain your certification are dead wrong. Yes, the clubfitting trade is this bad from top to bottom, no exaggeration needed.

    If you don't think a shafts balance point and weight can help a player time and/or deliver a strike a bit better you really don't understand what they do. I'm not saying it's the most important thing but to brush it off completely shows just as much incompetence as someone who you are rallying against. If you also think that someone eyeballing a shot is going to be able to tell you someone's swing speed, launch, and delivery mechanics, then that is a little scary. I cannot tell you the amount of amateurs I have had come through my shop with hopelessly horrific clubs for them that have been eyeball fit by a "pro" or "instructor".

    Your post pretty much exemplifies everything that I originally stated.

    I do not know what brought about your comments specifically surrounding shaft weight and balance point, as I never stated that the shaft and/or certain shaft parameters should be completely brushed off or anything even close to that.

    But based on your perception and comments, anyone capable of fitting a golf club to a golfer's swing knows which other club specification(s) needs to be adjusted and in what manner(s) in order to help bring out a golfer's best swinging when weights and/or balance points of various shafts differ. This is rather elementary clubfitting knowledge and universal in nature.

    Then again, if one does not really know how to fit a club to a golfer's swing, and one is in a different world of really only knowing how to use a launch monitor and its numbers to basically just alter ball travel results (the strike as you term it is merely a form of ball travel result), then naturally one (actually an entire trade here) would not likely possess the applicable education and skill to enact the above.

    It is funny (yet sad) how most appear to agree about how much the clubfitting industry is generally stinking up the whole game currently, that is unless of course they are referring to themselves, where then everybody is an exception and never part of the problem.

    And when I state that the entire trade from top to bottom desperately needs to be reeducated and retrained essentially from the ground up if it ever hopes to possibly recover and grow, the statement is blindly ignored and so no progress can be made.

    I've seen so many people come in, and within their first 10 posts immediately proclaim deep knowledge in the same condescending tone as you. Most prove to be silly narcissists. But let's set aside the likelihood that you're just an arrogant narcissist: for the consumer trying to learn how to assess a clubfitter, you offer no useful information. All you do is deride an industry. If, in fact, it is poorly done, then please use your deep wisdom and advanced mind to guide others. In other words, contribute something of value, or just shut up.

    Ping GMax 400 10.5
    Callawy Epic 5W
    Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
    Mizuno MP4 4-W
    Fourteen mt28v3 50, 54, 58
    Cameron Futura 5W


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