What’s with Crossfield and “strokes gained” subject lately?

BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

Crossfield is stuck on Mark Brodie’s Strokes gained App at the moment.
It is kind of annoying him just throwing out these stats constantly.
He does not focus on how one could improve or actually fixing a problem. He just throws out stats.
I miss his Journey stuff with the amateurs .
It’s still good entertainment, just c’mon mark, get off the strokes gained stuff.

«1345

Comments

  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,660 ✭✭

    What's he saying?

  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 19,888 ✭✭

    Might be getting paid to honk on the app a little? At least he mixes it up with a few digs at Ray and Coach.

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  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

    @MountainGoat said:
    What's he saying?

    If you check out his latest videos on YouTube then you can see he has downloaded the app for mark broadies strokes gained , “Every shot counts “, and he keeps on and on and on about it. He’s been analyzing all his playing partners golf games with it and then telling them to their face that they need to do better. He’s like a dog with a bone. It’s pretty annoying to watch.
    Some people do not live and die by Mark Brodie’s stuff, I don’t think analyzing the pros stats tells amateurs much .

  • DrDonDrDon Members Posts: 72 ✭✭

    I agree that Brodie's work doesn't translate to telling the average amateur how to improve. The message I have gotten from the Crossfield videos is that it's better to bomb your driver 300 yards than lay back with a 220-yard shot with your 3 iron. That is, there are more strokes gained with the 300-yard drive as opposed to the 220-yard iron tee shot. HOWEVER, if you're the average amateur and cannot hit a driver 300 yards, then what does Brodie's work tell you. Just hit the ball as far as you can?

  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,534 ClubWRX

    @DrDon said:
    I agree that Brodie's work doesn't translate to telling the average amateur how to improve. The message I have gotten from the Crossfield videos is that it's better to bomb your driver 300 yards than lay back with a 220-yard shot with your 3 iron. That is, there are more strokes gained with the 300-yard drive as opposed to the 220-yard iron tee shot. HOWEVER, if you're the average amateur and cannot hit a driver 300 yards, then what does Brodie's work tell you. Just hit the ball as far as you can?

    Yes more or less. If it is unlikely that hitting the maximum distance you can off the tee will put you in penalty areas or overly penal rough then longer is better. It is easier to hit the ball closer to the hole from light rough than fairway if you are 20 - 30 yards closer.

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  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

    @ThinkingPlus said:

    @DrDon said:
    I agree that Brodie's work doesn't translate to telling the average amateur how to improve. The message I have gotten from the Crossfield videos is that it's better to bomb your driver 300 yards than lay back with a 220-yard shot with your 3 iron. That is, there are more strokes gained with the 300-yard drive as opposed to the 220-yard iron tee shot. HOWEVER, if you're the average amateur and cannot hit a driver 300 yards, then what does Brodie's work tell you. Just hit the ball as far as you can?

    Yes more or less. If it is unlikely that hitting the maximum distance you can off the tee will put you in penalty areas or overly penal rough then longer is better. It is easier to hit the ball closer to the hole from light rough than fairway if you are 20 - 30 yards closer.

    What if you are in another fairway or a bunker or behind a grove of trees or in a lake . I think those are the times not to go gunning for 20 extra yards to hit a 7 iron in versus a hybrid.

  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,534 ClubWRX

    @BB28403 said:

    @ThinkingPlus said:

    @DrDon said:
    I agree that Brodie's work doesn't translate to telling the average amateur how to improve. The message I have gotten from the Crossfield videos is that it's better to bomb your driver 300 yards than lay back with a 220-yard shot with your 3 iron. That is, there are more strokes gained with the 300-yard drive as opposed to the 220-yard iron tee shot. HOWEVER, if you're the average amateur and cannot hit a driver 300 yards, then what does Brodie's work tell you. Just hit the ball as far as you can?

    Yes more or less. If it is unlikely that hitting the maximum distance you can off the tee will put you in penalty areas or overly penal rough then longer is better. It is easier to hit the ball closer to the hole from light rough than fairway if you are 20 - 30 yards closer.

    What if you are in another fairway or a bunker or behind a grove of trees or in a lake . I think those are the times not to go gunning for 20 extra yards to hit a 7 iron in versus a hybrid.

    I think a lake qualifies as a penalty area. Fairway bunkers (for most) = penal rough = behind trees. Any situation which would add an effective penalty stroke should be avoided. An adjacent fairway is fine as long as you have a clear shot.

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  • tigerwoodstigerwoods Members Posts: 330 ✭✭

    DECADE by Scott Fawcett

  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,268 ✭✭

    Follow the money

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

    @oikos1 said:
    Follow the money

    Haha, nice.

  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,660 ✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019 9:14am #12

    Brodie's work is a direct refutation of the long-held belief promoted by Dave Pelz and others that there are certain magic "full swing" distances from which you should play in order to get the ball closest to the hole. This applies mostly to par-5s but can also be applied to shorter holes, as well. Brodie's calculations indicate that there are no magic distances that promote maximum accuracy. Just get the ball as close as you can with every swing and then get it closer. Brodie also refutes the common belief that, since most of your shots are putts, you ought to spend most of your time working on your putting.

    Post edited by MountainGoat on
  • GolfjackGolfjack All about the rotation Members Posts: 996 ✭✭

    Also, people think yeah they're not going to hit 3 wood in to the woods instead hit a 7 iron in the fairway. Be honest with yourself, if your 3 wood swing is that inconsistent your 7 iron swing isn't amazing either. What's to stop a player from slicing his 7 iron or duffing it 5 yards? At least a duff with a 3 wood would go further forward. And if you didn't like his delivery in the past, you won't like it any more now. It's just his latest subject he is talking about. Probably struggling a little to find new ingenious topics to talk about so just slowing his roll.

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  • gentlesgentles Members Posts: 1,867 ✭✭

    @BB28403 said:

    @ThinkingPlus said:

    @DrDon said:
    I agree that Brodie's work doesn't translate to telling the average amateur how to improve. The message I have gotten from the Crossfield videos is that it's better to bomb your driver 300 yards than lay back with a 220-yard shot with your 3 iron. That is, there are more strokes gained with the 300-yard drive as opposed to the 220-yard iron tee shot. HOWEVER, if you're the average amateur and cannot hit a driver 300 yards, then what does Brodie's work tell you. Just hit the ball as far as you can?

    Yes more or less. If it is unlikely that hitting the maximum distance you can off the tee will put you in penalty areas or overly penal rough then longer is better. It is easier to hit the ball closer to the hole from light rough than fairway if you are 20 - 30 yards closer.

    What if you are in another fairway or a bunker or behind a grove of trees or in a lake . I think those are the times not to go gunning for 20 extra yards to hit a 7 iron in versus a hybrid.

    You have to consider the upside too. By hitting a hybrid or 7 iron on a par four you are basically eliminating birdie from your possible set of scores, as well as making par a real challenge unless it is a super short hole. If your goal is to break 80, making a couple birdies and a handful of two putt pars makes your life a whole lot easier than trying to get up and down for par all day.

    Every situation is different, and there are times where hitting driver doesn't make sense at all, but for the most part the extra 50-60 yards compared to a hybrid or iron off the tee is worth the risk of the occasional blow up.

    Most doubles + are not caused by errant drives, but overly aggressive recovery shots that go wrong. A long drive into the trees followed by a pitch out won't be too much worse than laying way back.

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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members Posts: 865 ✭✭
    edited Apr 23, 2019 2:21pm #15

    @gentles said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @ThinkingPlus said:

    @DrDon said:
    I agree that Brodie's work doesn't translate to telling the average amateur how to improve. The message I have gotten from the Crossfield videos is that it's better to bomb your driver 300 yards than lay back with a 220-yard shot with your 3 iron. That is, there are more strokes gained with the 300-yard drive as opposed to the 220-yard iron tee shot. HOWEVER, if you're the average amateur and cannot hit a driver 300 yards, then what does Brodie's work tell you. Just hit the ball as far as you can?

    Yes more or less. If it is unlikely that hitting the maximum distance you can off the tee will put you in penalty areas or overly penal rough then longer is better. It is easier to hit the ball closer to the hole from light rough than fairway if you are 20 - 30 yards closer.

    What if you are in another fairway or a bunker or behind a grove of trees or in a lake . I think those are the times not to go gunning for 20 extra yards to hit a 7 iron in versus a hybrid.

    You have to consider the upside too. By hitting a hybrid or 7 iron on a par four you are basically eliminating birdie from your possible set of scores, as well as making par a real challenge unless it is a super short hole. If your goal is to break 80, making a couple birdies and a handful of two putt pars makes your life a whole lot easier than trying to get up and down for par all day.

    Every situation is different, and there are times where hitting driver doesn't make sense at all, but for the most part the extra 50-60 yards compared to a hybrid or iron off the tee is worth the risk of the occasional blow up.

    Most doubles + are not caused by errant drives, but overly aggressive recovery shots that go wrong. A long drive into the trees followed by a pitch out won't be too much worse than laying way back.

    Yep. And this goes against all the conventional wisdom most of us have been told since we were kids. You don't always need to grab the driver. Well if you're a handicap player, yes, in most cases, just grab the driver.

    This sort of reminds me of basketball announcers saying you don't need the three. My rule of thumb is that when they say that, you probably need a three, lol.

  • rich srich s Members Posts: 524 ✭✭

    I watch all of them and it has made me look at my strategies and I am implementing some changes. I used to lay back to hit my yardages but now I am working hard on my shorter "bad yardages" and hitting more club off the tee. Won't know the impacts for a while but I am a pretty vanilla player and I think this will give me more real looks at birdies.

  • The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting, 50% will say short game. It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

  • gentlesgentles Members Posts: 1,867 ✭✭

    James Sieckmann has a great story in his book about Charley Hoffman - CH was a believer in laying up to a comfy yardage, and said that he "sucked" from inside 60 yards. His proximity to the hole from 90-110 was in the top ten on tour at the time, while from 50-60 he was ~100th. The kicker was that being 100th from 50-60 was still closer than being top ten from 90-110. Even if you feel comfortable at a longer yardage, chances are your absolute proximity will be much lower from 40-50. No need to lay back, almost always better off getting as close to the green as possible.

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  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,442 ✭✭

    @gentles said:
    James Sieckmann has a great story in his book about Charley Hoffman - CH was a believer in laying up to a comfy yardage, and said that he "sucked" from inside 60 yards. His proximity to the hole from 90-110 was in the top ten on tour at the time, while from 50-60 he was ~100th. The kicker was that being 100th from 50-60 was still closer than being top ten from 90-110. Even if you feel comfortable at a longer yardage, chances are your absolute proximity will be much lower from 40-50. No need to lay back, almost always better off getting as close to the green as possible.

    Doesnt all of the pga tour statistics typically support this notion as well? The closer they are, the smaller the proximity to the hole?

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

    @Krt22 said:

    @gentles said:
    James Sieckmann has a great story in his book about Charley Hoffman - CH was a believer in laying up to a comfy yardage, and said that he "sucked" from inside 60 yards. His proximity to the hole from 90-110 was in the top ten on tour at the time, while from 50-60 he was ~100th. The kicker was that being 100th from 50-60 was still closer than being top ten from 90-110. Even if you feel comfortable at a longer yardage, chances are your absolute proximity will be much lower from 40-50. No need to lay back, almost always better off getting as close to the green as possible.

    Doesnt all of the pga tour statistics typically support this notion as well? The closer they are, the smaller the proximity to the hole?

    I think I read somewhere broadie is the one who came up with the shot link system. So they may be one in the same.

  • Joker91Joker91 Westminster, COMembers Posts: 554 ✭✭

    Then don't watch those videos?

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

    @iHititStraightSometimes said:
    The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting, 50% will say short game. It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

    I think it just applies to pros. It’s like they are using this system to argue over a 1/32nd size slice of cake. When amateurs have a million different ways to improve. While the pros only have that small sliver of cake between their winning and their losing, and Strokes Gained was created based on their (the pros) data.
    So I feel it does not apply to amateurs who can shave 10 strokes off their game by improving , instead of chasing the “numbers”

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

    @Joker91 said:
    Then don't watch those videos?

    I am in Crossfield anonymous at the moment. I just got my 1 day Chip today, but I feel a relapse coming.

  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,442 ✭✭

    @BB28403 said:

    @iHititStraightSometimes said:
    The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting, 50% will say short game. It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

    I think it just applies to pros. It’s like they are using this system to argue over a 1/32nd size slice of cake. When amateurs have a million different ways to improve. While the pros only have that small sliver of cake between their winning and their losing, and Strokes Gained was created based on their (the pros) data.
    So I feel it does not apply to amateurs who can shave 10 strokes off their game by improving , instead of chasing the “numbers”

    Perhaps you should read the actual book? I have it on order, I'm not going to argue against it without reading it first.

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

    @Krt22 said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @iHititStraightSometimes said:
    The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting, 50% will say short game. It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

    I think it just applies to pros. It’s like they are using this system to argue over a 1/32nd size slice of cake. When amateurs have a million different ways to improve. While the pros only have that small sliver of cake between their winning and their losing, and Strokes Gained was created based on their (the pros) data.
    So I feel it does not apply to amateurs who can shave 10 strokes off their game by improving , instead of chasing the “numbers”

    Perhaps you should read the actual book? I have it on order, I'm not going to argue against it without reading it first.

    I own it

  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,442 ✭✭

    So Is there anything in the book that eludes to it only applying to professionals?

  • rich srich s Members Posts: 524 ✭✭

    not sure how sg does not apply to everyone. It shows your weaknesses and points out what to work on. It also shows you how to improve based on strategy alone.

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,596 ✭✭

    @Krt22 said:
    So Is there anything in the book that eludes to it only applying to professionals?

    My take is the higher level you play or want to play. Then it applies more and more to you as you get better and better.
    Read it and tell me what you think. You may need a lot of coffee.

  • gentlesgentles Members Posts: 1,867 ✭✭

    @BB28403 said:

    @iHititStraightSometimes said:
    The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting, 50% will say short game. It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

    I think it just applies to pros. It’s like they are using this system to argue over a 1/32nd size slice of cake. When amateurs have a million different ways to improve. While the pros only have that small sliver of cake between their winning and their losing, and Strokes Gained was created based on their (the pros) data.
    So I feel it does not apply to amateurs who can shave 10 strokes off their game by improving , instead of chasing the “numbers”

    Understanding strokes gained can help you make better decisions on the golf course, which can improve your score with zero range balls or effort. If anything, average players can benefit the most from this as it doesn't require hours and hours of practice to keep and maintain changes.

    A few examples:

    • Knowing how to aim on holes with OB to give yourself as close to 0% chance of going OB, even if it means being in the rough 100% of the time.
    • Knowing the "cost" of laying up off the tee, and deciding if giving up 50 yards is worth being in the fairway more often
    • knowing where to aim your approach shots to avoid short siding yourself
    • managing your expectations about what a good shot from certain distances is (i.e. not firing at every flag because you think you have to)
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  • i*windowsi*windows Members Posts: 2,159 ✭✭

    @BB28403 said:
    Crossfield is stuck on Mark Brodie’s Strokes gained App at the moment.
    It is kind of annoying him just throwing out these stats constantly.
    He does not focus on how one could improve or actually fixing a problem. He just throws out stats.
    I miss his Journey stuff with the amateurs .
    It’s still good entertainment, just c’mon mark, get off the strokes gained stuff.

    Someone must have put tape over his mouth whilst they explained it to him and now it's stuck in his head like D plane was a while ago.

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