New LR E-12

This MUST be a joke...

'MLR E-12
“When taking Back-On-the-Line relief, there is no additional penalty if a player plays a ball that
was dropped in the relief area required by the relevant Rule (Rule 16.1c(2), 17.1d(2), 19.2b or
19.3b) but came to rest outside the relief area, so long as the ball, when played, is within one
club-length of where it first touched the ground when dropped.
This exemption from penalty applies even if the ball is played from nearer the hole than the
reference point (but not if played from nearer the hole than the spot of the original ball or the
estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area).
This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a
relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local
Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it
comes to rest outside the relief area, whether this occurs on the first or second drop.” (Added
4/2019)'

Honestly! Seven years of pondering and now RBs noticed this... sad sad sad...

Comments

  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 14,921 ✭✭

    What do you mean the RBs “noticed this?” It seems to me that they made a curious choice to be more flexible, but did not “notice” a mistake. Agreed?

    I have no earthly idea why this LR would be useful. Someone please educate me.

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,188 ✭✭

    I can understand the part about not having to redrop if the ball goes forward, or backward, of the drop since you could of dropped the ball at the spot to begin with.It just happened that you chose a point farther BOL to drop. Only odd part is the ball going laterally outside the relief area.

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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 14,921 ✭✭

    Requiring the ball to stay in the relief area was simple and clean. A LR relenting on this in some circumstances makes for complexity and confusion.

  • rogolfrogolf Members Posts: 3,692 ✭✭

    @Mr. Bean said:
    This MUST be a joke...

    'MLR E-12
    “When taking Back-On-the-Line relief, there is no additional penalty if a player plays a ball that
    was dropped in the relief area required by the relevant Rule (Rule 16.1c(2), 17.1d(2), 19.2b or
    19.3b) but came to rest outside the relief area, so long as the ball, when played, is within one
    club-length of where it first touched the ground when dropped.
    This exemption from penalty applies even if the ball is played from nearer the hole than the
    reference point (but not if played from nearer the hole than the spot of the original ball or the
    estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area).
    This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a
    relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local
    Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it
    comes to rest outside the relief area, whether this occurs on the first or second drop.” (Added
    4/2019)'

    Honestly! Seven years of pondering and now RBs noticed this... sad sad sad...

    I think it's your continual criticism of the ruling bodies and the 2019 Rules that is sad, sad, sad, and very tiring. As you said to others, give up the game or just make up your own rules.

  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 3,800 ✭✭

    I feel certain there will be no pressure from the members of my club for this Local Rule. (I will resist it only because I don't wish to spend my time in the bar explaining it . . . E-5 is tough enough. We've had to make E-5 fit on a bumper sticker already.)

    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • antipantip Members Posts: 447 ✭✭
    edited Apr 25, 2019 2:46am #7

    @Sawgrass said:
    What do you mean the RBs “noticed this?” It seems to me that they made a curious choice to be more flexible, but did not “notice” a mistake. Agreed?

    I have no earthly idea why this LR would be useful. Someone please educate me.

    It simply eliminates the wrong place 2SP that could arise if someone took BOL relief, failed to identify/choose a reference point and then the ball moved forward an inch after it hit the ground and it was played without being re-dropped. This would seem fully consistent with the 2019 Rules change headlines - eliminate unnecessary penalties. Why penalise a ball moving an inch forward on a BOL drop when the BOL rule permits going back as far as you like? (assuming you are not closer to the hole than the original point).

  • QEightQEight Members Posts: 3,417 ✭✭

    But why leave it to Committee to decide? What would be their reasoning for this rule on course or in competition? Stupid players?

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  • antipantip Members Posts: 447 ✭✭

    @QEight said:
    But why leave it to Committee to decide? What would be their reasoning for this rule on course or in competition? Stupid players?

    I agree it is better to change the rule rather than adding yet another issue that each Committee must decide. That is two in the April clarification. If this trend continues, life will get more complicated for people that play multiple courses. I think LRs are best focussed on local condition issues rather than a large number of discretionary choices for every Committee.

  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 6,493 ✭✭

    I agree. I suspect many/most clubs will not even think about this LR so will be faced with the prospect of arguments on course between players who understand the Rule, those that don't, those that understand the LR, those that don't and those that don't know if the LR is in effect.
    Just put it in the Rule - what reason is there for not using it?

  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 14,921 ✭✭

    @antip said:

    @Sawgrass said:
    What do you mean the RBs “noticed this?” It seems to me that they made a curious choice to be more flexible, but did not “notice” a mistake. Agreed?

    I have no earthly idea why this LR would be useful. Someone please educate me.

    It simply eliminates the wrong place 2SP that could arise if someone took BOL relief, failed to identify/choose a reference point and then the ball moved forward an inch after it hit the ground and it was played without being re-dropped. This would seem fully consistent with the 2019 Rules change headlines - eliminate unnecessary penalties. Why penalise a ball moving an inch forward on a BOL drop when the BOL rule permits going back as far as you like? (assuming you are not closer to the hole than the original point).

    So it works for someone who didn't understand the 2019 Rule (and played according to 2018 Rules), but only if the ball doesn't move more than 1 CL from where it hit -- when in 2018 a 1 and 1/2 CL move would also have been acceptable.

    Needless complexity, meet unnecessary penalty. (IMO we should just get used to the very reasonable 2019 rule.)

  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 3,876 ✭✭

    @rogolf said:

    @Mr. Bean said:
    This MUST be a joke...

    'MLR E-12
    “When taking Back-On-the-Line relief, there is no additional penalty if a player plays a ball that
    was dropped in the relief area required by the relevant Rule (Rule 16.1c(2), 17.1d(2), 19.2b or
    19.3b) but came to rest outside the relief area, so long as the ball, when played, is within one
    club-length of where it first touched the ground when dropped.
    This exemption from penalty applies even if the ball is played from nearer the hole than the
    reference point (but not if played from nearer the hole than the spot of the original ball or the
    estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area).
    This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a
    relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local
    Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it
    comes to rest outside the relief area, whether this occurs on the first or second drop.” (Added
    4/2019)'

    Honestly! Seven years of pondering and now RBs noticed this... sad sad sad...

    I think it's your continual criticism of the ruling bodies and the 2019 Rules that is sad, sad, sad, and very tiring. As you said to others, give up the game or just make up your own rules.

    Having a bad day, rogolf..?

  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 3,800 ✭✭

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @rogolf said:

    @Mr. Bean said:
    This MUST be a joke...

    'MLR E-12
    “When taking Back-On-the-Line relief, there is no additional penalty if a player plays a ball that
    was dropped in the relief area required by the relevant Rule (Rule 16.1c(2), 17.1d(2), 19.2b or
    19.3b) but came to rest outside the relief area, so long as the ball, when played, is within one
    club-length of where it first touched the ground when dropped.
    This exemption from penalty applies even if the ball is played from nearer the hole than the
    reference point (but not if played from nearer the hole than the spot of the original ball or the
    estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area).
    This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a
    relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local
    Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it
    comes to rest outside the relief area, whether this occurs on the first or second drop.” (Added
    4/2019)'

    Honestly! Seven years of pondering and now RBs noticed this... sad sad sad...

    I think it's your continual criticism of the ruling bodies and the 2019 Rules that is sad, sad, sad, and very tiring. As you said to others, give up the game or just make up your own rules.

    Having a bad day, rogolf..?

    Dear Mr Bean,
    You certainly are entitled to your opinion on the 2019 Rules. You've expressed the notion that the new Rules are unsatisfactory many, many times on the forum. Don't be surprised that your friends here have noticed, and don't be surprised that a few are weary of your campaign against the Rules.

    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,803 ✭✭

    First off. Will someone give me the cliffs notes for how to find this LR on the USga app ? Searching LR or local rule e-12 nets nothing.

    I wanted to read it as I wondered if this will allow a scenario where the ball may roll forward onto a green etc from some Instances.

    Does it include marked drop zones ? Etc. pardon me if those are silly questions. As I said. I can’t find the Wording to read for myself.

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  • antipantip Members Posts: 447 ✭✭
    edited Apr 25, 2019 2:01pm #15

    @bladehunter said:
    First off. Will someone give me the cliffs notes for how to find this LR on the USga app ? Searching LR or local rule e-12 nets nothing.

    I wanted to read it as I wondered if this will allow a scenario where the ball may roll forward onto a green etc from some Instances.

    Does it include marked drop zones ? Etc. pardon me if those are silly questions. As I said. I can’t find the Wording to read for myself.

    @bladehunter said:
    First off. Will someone give me the cliffs notes for how to find this LR on the USga app ? Searching LR or local rule e-12 nets nothing.

    I wanted to read it as I wondered if this will allow a scenario where the ball may roll forward onto a green etc from some Instances.

    Does it include marked drop zones ? Etc. pardon me if those are silly questions. As I said. I can’t find the Wording to read for myself.

    http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rulesarticles/clarifications-of-the-2019-rules-of-golf.html

    I'm not an App person.

  • rogolfrogolf Members Posts: 3,692 ✭✭

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @rogolf said:

    @Mr. Bean said:
    This MUST be a joke...

    'MLR E-12
    “When taking Back-On-the-Line relief, there is no additional penalty if a player plays a ball that
    was dropped in the relief area required by the relevant Rule (Rule 16.1c(2), 17.1d(2), 19.2b or
    19.3b) but came to rest outside the relief area, so long as the ball, when played, is within one
    club-length of where it first touched the ground when dropped.
    This exemption from penalty applies even if the ball is played from nearer the hole than the
    reference point (but not if played from nearer the hole than the spot of the original ball or the
    estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area).
    This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a
    relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local
    Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it
    comes to rest outside the relief area, whether this occurs on the first or second drop.” (Added
    4/2019)'

    Honestly! Seven years of pondering and now RBs noticed this... sad sad sad...

    I think it's your continual criticism of the ruling bodies and the 2019 Rules that is sad, sad, sad, and very tiring. As you said to others, give up the game or just make up your own rules.

    Having a bad day, rogolf..?

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @rogolf said:

    @Mr. Bean said:
    This MUST be a joke...

    'MLR E-12
    “When taking Back-On-the-Line relief, there is no additional penalty if a player plays a ball that
    was dropped in the relief area required by the relevant Rule (Rule 16.1c(2), 17.1d(2), 19.2b or
    19.3b) but came to rest outside the relief area, so long as the ball, when played, is within one
    club-length of where it first touched the ground when dropped.
    This exemption from penalty applies even if the ball is played from nearer the hole than the
    reference point (but not if played from nearer the hole than the spot of the original ball or the
    estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area).
    This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a
    relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local
    Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it
    comes to rest outside the relief area, whether this occurs on the first or second drop.” (Added
    4/2019)'

    Honestly! Seven years of pondering and now RBs noticed this... sad sad sad...

    I think it's your continual criticism of the ruling bodies and the 2019 Rules that is sad, sad, sad, and very tiring. As you said to others, give up the game or just make up your own rules.

    Having a bad day, rogolf..?

  • rogolfrogolf Members Posts: 3,692 ✭✭

    Au contraire Mr. Bean, I’m having a great day!
    But it does seem like you’re having a lousy year with the new Rules.

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,188 ✭✭

    @bladehunter said:
    First off. Will someone give me the cliffs notes for how to find this LR on the USga app ? Searching LR or local rule e-12 nets nothing.

    I wanted to read it as I wondered if this will allow a scenario where the ball may roll forward onto a green etc from some Instances.

    Does it include marked drop zones ? Etc. pardon me if those are silly questions. As I said. I can’t find the Wording to read for myself.

    Official Guide-Committe Procedures-8 Model Local Rules

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  • Colin LColin L Members Posts: 1,985 ✭✭
    edited Apr 25, 2019 3:34pm #19

    Mainly at Mr Bean!
    The RBs are faced with the practical impossibility of actually changing a rule when millions of rule books have just been issued around the world. We can, I'd say, expect the various clarifications and additional optional LRs to find their way into the body of the next publication of the Rules. In the meantime, given the inevitability/likelihood of such a massive re-writing job throwing up the need for tweaks, additional explanations and even changes, we are getting "clarifications" and additional LRs. Complicating? Yes. Messy? Yes. Unavoidable? I'd say so.

    It has its irritating and problematic aspect too. I finally managed to reduce my club's LRs to fit a sheet of A4 and to produce a smaller but still readable font size two-fold version of a size to be inserted into the Player's Edition and felt immodestly pleased with myself. There's no room for additions. >:)

    I don't find this particular one easy - although it effectively deals with the difficulty Antip reminds us of - and it's easy to be antagonistic. But isn't it rather more helpful to cooperate with making it all work at whatever level we operate at rather than gripe?

    Now, do I just leave my advisory note to members always to mark the reference point when taking BOL relief in place, or do I adopt this LR? Answers on a plain postcard ..........:)

  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,786 ✭✭
    edited Apr 25, 2019 4:49pm #20

    I'm not sure whether I like the local rule or not. A part of me thinks it should be that way to avoid using the current rule to place the ball. The other side of me is worried introducing this into the rules one day would chip away from the goal of keeping things uniform. I'm convinced our committee would've said no to the rule even if it had been available before the season started (and we finalized the LRs for the year).

    The biggest concern from our club was about how complicated the LRs would be and how much text there would be. That lead to the committee saying no to my suggestion of introducing the LR for a provisional for a ball possibly lost in a PA. They considered it too complex for the average player and we would've also ran out of room on the LR sheet. All of the rules could've been handled on one page but two necessary rules doubled the word count. One was a red PA, which needed the opposite margin relief option and the other was two NPZs.

    Interestingly enough, just yesterday I decided to not play by the rules when I wasn't sure whether or not my bladed tee shot cleared a PA and it's nearly a 400-yard walk to go and check. The staff is also getting not-so-friendly feedback of not being allowed to use the opposite margin relief on that hole anymore (it really should be a yellow PA but some years ago, before I got into the rules and the committee, it was changed to a LWH) and now people who struggle to carry a ball 150 yards or so complain when they can't cross the PA from the tips or the second furthest set of tees and can't drop on the other side to get across. :D

    Edit: I might have veered slightly off topic. Oh well...

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 3,876 ✭✭

    @sui generis said:

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @rogolf said:

    @Mr. Bean said:
    This MUST be a joke...

    'MLR E-12
    “When taking Back-On-the-Line relief, there is no additional penalty if a player plays a ball that
    was dropped in the relief area required by the relevant Rule (Rule 16.1c(2), 17.1d(2), 19.2b or
    19.3b) but came to rest outside the relief area, so long as the ball, when played, is within one
    club-length of where it first touched the ground when dropped.
    This exemption from penalty applies even if the ball is played from nearer the hole than the
    reference point (but not if played from nearer the hole than the spot of the original ball or the
    estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area).
    This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a
    relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local
    Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it
    comes to rest outside the relief area, whether this occurs on the first or second drop.” (Added
    4/2019)'

    Honestly! Seven years of pondering and now RBs noticed this... sad sad sad...

    I think it's your continual criticism of the ruling bodies and the 2019 Rules that is sad, sad, sad, and very tiring. As you said to others, give up the game or just make up your own rules.

    Having a bad day, rogolf..?

    Dear Mr Bean,
    You certainly are entitled to your opinion on the 2019 Rules. You've expressed the notion that the new Rules are unsatisfactory many, many times on the forum. Don't be surprised that your friends here have noticed, and don't be surprised that a few are weary of your campaign against the Rules.

    Maybe I have expressed myself poorly during these past months as I have no campaign against the new Rules, mainly on the contrary (as I stated today to a group of people I gave a 2 hour briefing to on the course). What I have tried to and still am heavily complaining is that during the seven years' process the Ruling Bodies were not able to simulate the proposals and later Rules chosen in order to make them logical, the main examples having been the Reference Point of BOL in the case of yellow Penalty Area and the caddie standing behind the ball, just to mention IMO two most prominent. And now this E-12. It was very clear from the beginning that this particular part of Rules will be a problem. Me and my referee colleagues spotted that from the Day 1, how come the RBs did not??

  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 3,876 ✭✭

    @Colin L said:

    Now, do I just leave my advisory note to members always to mark the reference point when taking BOL relief in place, or do I adopt this LR? Answers on a plain postcard ..........:)

    The RP does not need to be marked, it just has to be chosen and for that mere pointing with a toe of a club is sufficient. This is what I advised my forum of today to do if they are too busy or lazy to stick a tee on the ground. The real problem is to remember to do one of those.

    Related to this, did we already handle the situation where a player does not tell other which RP he chose in his mind and just drops a ball and it rolls towards the hole? After he played his ball another player claims a penalty for playing from a Wrong Place but the player says he chose a RP closer to hole. Ruling?

  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 6,493 ✭✭
    edited Apr 25, 2019 6:19pm #23

    Any IT/Systems specialist will tell you that the most under tested and undervalued parts of designing, writing and implementing a new system are
    1) Determining all the 'What ifs' that may be expected and more importantly not expected
    2) Testing the 'What ifs' with people who were not involved in the writing.

    Any potential 'if' must be followed by a 'then' and an 'else' and golf is almost overwhelmed with them

  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 3,876 ✭✭

    @Newby said:
    Any IT/Systems specialist will tell you that the most under tested and undervalued parts of designing, writing and implementing a new system are
    1) Determining all the 'What ifs' that may be expected and more importantly not expected
    2) Testing the 'What ifs' with people who were not involved in the writing.

    Any potential 'if' must be followed by a 'then' and an 'else' and golf is almost overwhelmed with them

    Most of the text you wrote is gibberish to me, but incidentally my wife is an IT-specialist as well as a golfer and a golf referee, and her words regarding E-12 were 'sheer incompetence'...

  • Colin LColin L Members Posts: 1,985 ✭✭

    Wisdom after an event?

  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 6,493 ✭✭

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @Newby said:
    Any IT/Systems specialist will tell you that the most under tested and undervalued parts of designing, writing and implementing a new system are
    1) Determining all the 'What ifs' that may be expected and more importantly not expected
    2) Testing the 'What ifs' with people who were not involved in the writing.

    Any potential 'if' must be followed by a 'then' and an 'else' and golf is almost overwhelmed with them

    Most of the text you wrote is gibberish to me, but incidentally my wife is an IT-specialist as well as a golfer and a golf referee, and her words regarding E-12 were 'sheer incompetence'...

    If this situation occurs
    then take such and such action
    else take a different action

  • antipantip Members Posts: 447 ✭✭

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @Colin L said:

    Now, do I just leave my advisory note to members always to mark the reference point when taking BOL relief in place, or do I adopt this LR? Answers on a plain postcard ..........:)

    The RP does not need to be marked, it just has to be chosen and for that mere pointing with a toe of a club is sufficient. This is what I advised my forum of today to do if they are too busy or lazy to stick a tee on the ground. The real problem is to remember to do one of those.

    Related to this, did we already handle the situation where a player does not tell other which RP he chose in his mind and just drops a ball and it rolls towards the hole? After he played his ball another player claims a penalty for playing from a Wrong Place but the player says he chose a RP closer to hole. Ruling?

    No penalty. This player clearly is alert to the detail of the rule. And integrity is assumed in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary.

  • Colin LColin L Members Posts: 1,985 ✭✭

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @Colin L said:

    Now, do I just leave my advisory note to members always to mark the reference point when taking BOL relief in place, or do I adopt this LR? Answers on a plain postcard ..........:)

    The RP does not need to be marked, it just has to be chosen and for that mere pointing with a toe of a club is sufficient. This is what I advised my forum of today to do if they are too busy or lazy to stick a tee on the ground. The real problem is to remember to do one of those.

    Related to this, did we already handle the situation where a player does not tell other which RP he chose in his mind and just drops a ball and it rolls towards the hole? After he played his ball another player claims a penalty for playing from a Wrong Place but the player says he chose a RP closer to hole. Ruling?

    I'm well aware the reference doesn't have to be marked. My advisory note is just that - advice to members. In this type of relief, they should mark the reference point. It makes for an easier life as you yourself have illustrated!

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