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My experience gaming clubs that were designed for my handicap range

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  • sdandreasdandrea Steve Members Posts: 2,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dciccoritti said:

    @sdandrea said:
    Yes. I'm a 13 handicapper and I play shovels (Big Bertha). My handicap would go up if the size of my irons went down...............I have proven this.

    You've proven this for yourself...not for others. My scoring went down and I don't even give blades all that much credit other than they are the ultimate GIGO irons on the market.

    But the original question was asking what our experience was. I merely answered it.

    Cobra F Max 10.5*
    Callaway Steelhead XR Heavenwood
    Cobra Baffler 5H
    PING S57 7-W
    Cleveland CG15 52*, 56*
    Odyssey V Line


  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MtlJeff said:
    I genuinely find the subject interesting, I don't really want this to be blades vs cavities for the millionth time. I probably should've talked drivers more in the OP

    But like, i probably would not have considered the G400 max unless people here convinced me with near unanimous praise. I just didn't think it was designed for me, high spin and all that.

    But it's been a great driver. But I really wouldn't have looked at it based on how they marketed it

    So I guess it goes both ways a bit.

    Ironically my other driver is an F8+ at 8 degrees with an open face

    Yeah, I guess the discussion drifted a bit.

    Personally, I think all of the drivers out there today are more similar than the different irons. Even today's low-spin products are tons easier to hit than something from the early-to-mid 2000s. And we've seen many of the pros going with the standard models (vs. the lower spin) that are played by the everyday hacker.

    It also seems like off the tee the objective is near universal - hit the ball as far as you can with reasonable accuracy. No doubt some people may be willing to give up 5 yards based on the preference for a particular club, but there is far less discussion on shaping shots, turf interaction, offset, etc.

    For whatever reason, someone saying this head / shaft gave me the best numbers or combination of distance/forgiveness is much more accepted than hearing that with irons though...

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    PING G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    PING Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  PING Eye 2+ (58*) or PING Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,674 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @MtlJeff said:
    I genuinely find the subject interesting, I don't really want this to be blades vs cavities for the millionth time. I probably should've talked drivers more in the OP

    But like, i probably would not have considered the G400 max unless people here convinced me with near unanimous praise. I just didn't think it was designed for me, high spin and all that.

    But it's been a great driver. But I really wouldn't have looked at it based on how they marketed it

    So I guess it goes both ways a bit.

    Ironically my other driver is an F8+ at 8 degrees with an open face

    Yeah, I guess the discussion drifted a bit.

    Personally, I think all of the drivers out there today are more similar than the different irons. Even today's low-spin products are tons easier to hit than something from the early-to-mid 2000s. And we've seen many of the pros going with the standard models (vs. the lower spin) that are played by the everyday hacker.

    It also seems like off the tee the objective is near universal - hit the ball as far as you can with reasonable accuracy. No doubt some people may be willing to give up 5 yards based on the preference for a particular club, but there is far less discussion on shaping shots, turf interaction, offset, etc.

    For whatever reason, someone saying this head / shaft gave me the best numbers or combination of distance/forgiveness is much more accepted than hearing that with irons though...

    I think the "head/shaft etc" point is that we have much more flexibility with a single club. With that the ability to change shafts gives us an infinite amount of ability to adjust a single club for that "As you" stated universal objective, hit the ball as far as you can.

    Imagine if an amateur took the time to dial in their 9 iron like they did their driver? The biggest difference is that the 9 iron objective would be a point target.... meaning they are hoping to fill a specified distance. The time needed to do so with the remaining irons would be a little over kill. SO agreeing it gets very convoluted! (In the opposite I almost guarantee the PROS ARE in fact doing that tuning each single iron as that is their day job and their lively hood?

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    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @XHoop24 said:
    @MtlJeff - which driver are you currently playing? I see the sig is updated with G400 Max. Planning to play it all season or more the normal WRX switching?

    Probably will switch between the 2. If history is any indication (i typically prioritize hitting fairways with driver) i'll probably play the MAX in 70% of my rounds and the Cobra in 30% or so

    Ping G400 Max 10 w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20 w/S300
    Ping G410 4-SW w/S300
    Callaway MD 2.0 60 PM grind w/S300
    Odyssey O-works Red Tank #7
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Exactice808 said:

    @MtlJeff said:
    I genuinely find the subject interesting, I don't really want this to be blades vs cavities for the millionth time. I probably should've talked drivers more in the OP

    But like, i probably would not have considered the G400 max unless people here convinced me with near unanimous praise. I just didn't think it was designed for me, high spin and all that.

    But it's been a great driver. But I really wouldn't have looked at it based on how they marketed it

    So I guess it goes both ways a bit.

    Ironically my other driver is an F8+ at 8 degrees with an open face

    In all fairness it always does..... Hey Jeff I got a **** wrench questions.

    How does one quantify ability? What do I mean, When I didnt have my 2 & 4 year olds I would get to the range 2-3 times a week put in good honest practice. Work on both short game as well as long game. I get to play at least once a week to edify and work on a legit handicap. As I stated prior I got down to a 7 on a consistent basis. And then the first kid was born.....then the second kid...... current years....non practice, once a month golf and I shot 80 a month ago and shot 89 yesterday.

    Where do we draw that line, or what do YOU think is an appropriate marker that would dictate clubs for X ability?

    Lets (get away from the MB vs X)
    Lets do a G410 45.75" vs M6 45.75" vs TS 2 45.5"
    Vs Taking an ultra forgiving driver and cutting it down period to at least a 45" or even a 44.5" Is the 1+" worth the dispersion?
    Its funng when we talk about forgiving... But one thing that I have noticed the move to make the driver longer. would it be better to try and Cut a driver per say as most heads are pretty forgiving now days? As the intent is ball speed right? YET if we are not getting 1.5 smash, it means we are not getting the most efficient ball speed we can?

    These longer drivers I have to assume are half the cause of the lower smash factors?
    in all fairness... what is the difference of a 100mph SS but 1.45 vs 1.5 smash.... 5mph of ball speed...

    Sure with the 1/2" - 3/4" you may squeeze out a couple extra yards but Im sure the dispersion has gotten worse?

    Cutting a driver is a pain unless you custom order, at least for me. You run into SW issues and have to use a bunch of lead tape or hotmelt or whatever. I've never really had a massive issue with fairways, can usually find a stock 45-45.5 driver that i can hit a lot with , it's really about fine tuning for tournaments.

    As far as ability goes i'm more of a Bill Parcells guy in that "you are what you are". I think the golfer that is fantastic at certain things but awful at others is largely an internet creation. But that's for another thread.

    Ping G400 Max 10 w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20 w/S300
    Ping G410 4-SW w/S300
    Callaway MD 2.0 60 PM grind w/S300
    Odyssey O-works Red Tank #7
  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,674 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 1:59am #157

    @MtlJeff said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @MtlJeff said:
    I genuinely find the subject interesting, I don't really want this to be blades vs cavities for the millionth time. I probably should've talked drivers more in the OP

    But like, i probably would not have considered the G400 max unless people here convinced me with near unanimous praise. I just didn't think it was designed for me, high spin and all that.

    But it's been a great driver. But I really wouldn't have looked at it based on how they marketed it

    So I guess it goes both ways a bit.

    Ironically my other driver is an F8+ at 8 degrees with an open face

    In all fairness it always does..... Hey Jeff I got a **** wrench questions.

    How does one quantify ability? What do I mean, When I didnt have my 2 & 4 year olds I would get to the range 2-3 times a week put in good honest practice. Work on both short game as well as long game. I get to play at least once a week to edify and work on a legit handicap. As I stated prior I got down to a 7 on a consistent basis. And then the first kid was born.....then the second kid...... current years....non practice, once a month golf and I shot 80 a month ago and shot 89 yesterday.

    Where do we draw that line, or what do YOU think is an appropriate marker that would dictate clubs for X ability?

    Lets (get away from the MB vs X)
    Lets do a G410 45.75" vs M6 45.75" vs TS 2 45.5"
    Vs Taking an ultra forgiving driver and cutting it down period to at least a 45" or even a 44.5" Is the 1+" worth the dispersion?
    Its funng when we talk about forgiving... But one thing that I have noticed the move to make the driver longer. would it be better to try and Cut a driver per say as most heads are pretty forgiving now days? As the intent is ball speed right? YET if we are not getting 1.5 smash, it means we are not getting the most efficient ball speed we can?

    These longer drivers I have to assume are half the cause of the lower smash factors?
    in all fairness... what is the difference of a 100mph SS but 1.45 vs 1.5 smash.... 5mph of ball speed...

    Sure with the 1/2" - 3/4" you may squeeze out a couple extra yards but Im sure the dispersion has gotten worse?

    Cutting a driver is a pain unless you custom order, at least for me. You run into SW issues and have to use a bunch of lead tape or hotmelt or whatever. I've never really had a massive issue with fairways, can usually find a stock 45-45.5 driver that i can hit a lot with , it's really about fine tuning for tournaments.

    As far as ability goes i'm more of a Bill Parcells guy in that "you are what you are". I think the golfer that is fantastic at certain things but awful at others is largely an internet creation. But that's for another thread.

    Gotcha! Makes sense. I guess I am too cheap to buy a new one so I would take an old club of mine and being a GolfWRXer I got a couple of old shafts laying around to test (I think I have like 6 LOL) . But I have a couple cut 1 @ 44.5 and [email protected] 45" . I have not moved from my 915 yet, I do have a Fly Z as a back up driver but I also had this cut and its at 45". Did you at least experiment with it at one point in your career. As I gotta assume that 45.75" in a G400 gotta feel foreign as well?

    As for playing whats marketed to handicaps. Handicap does move quite a bit (amateurs wise). More so with this game scores fluctuate as well, I assume dedication and practice is the only way to keep the score down for most of use humans there are some naturally talented players, but likely rare by sure golfers numbers. So when a club is sold for X handicap is it something we accept to play because they said so? Or would it behoove us to dive deep into the game aspect to really fit our needs? (likely more of a rhetorical statement.)

    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Exactice808 said:

    @MtlJeff said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @MtlJeff said:
    I genuinely find the subject interesting, I don't really want this to be blades vs cavities for the millionth time. I probably should've talked drivers more in the OP

    But like, i probably would not have considered the G400 max unless people here convinced me with near unanimous praise. I just didn't think it was designed for me, high spin and all that.

    But it's been a great driver. But I really wouldn't have looked at it based on how they marketed it

    So I guess it goes both ways a bit.

    Ironically my other driver is an F8+ at 8 degrees with an open face

    In all fairness it always does..... Hey Jeff I got a **** wrench questions.

    How does one quantify ability? What do I mean, When I didnt have my 2 & 4 year olds I would get to the range 2-3 times a week put in good honest practice. Work on both short game as well as long game. I get to play at least once a week to edify and work on a legit handicap. As I stated prior I got down to a 7 on a consistent basis. And then the first kid was born.....then the second kid...... current years....non practice, once a month golf and I shot 80 a month ago and shot 89 yesterday.

    Where do we draw that line, or what do YOU think is an appropriate marker that would dictate clubs for X ability?

    Lets (get away from the MB vs X)
    Lets do a G410 45.75" vs M6 45.75" vs TS 2 45.5"
    Vs Taking an ultra forgiving driver and cutting it down period to at least a 45" or even a 44.5" Is the 1+" worth the dispersion?
    Its funng when we talk about forgiving... But one thing that I have noticed the move to make the driver longer. would it be better to try and Cut a driver per say as most heads are pretty forgiving now days? As the intent is ball speed right? YET if we are not getting 1.5 smash, it means we are not getting the most efficient ball speed we can?

    These longer drivers I have to assume are half the cause of the lower smash factors?
    in all fairness... what is the difference of a 100mph SS but 1.45 vs 1.5 smash.... 5mph of ball speed...

    Sure with the 1/2" - 3/4" you may squeeze out a couple extra yards but Im sure the dispersion has gotten worse?

    Cutting a driver is a pain unless you custom order, at least for me. You run into SW issues and have to use a bunch of lead tape or hotmelt or whatever. I've never really had a massive issue with fairways, can usually find a stock 45-45.5 driver that i can hit a lot with , it's really about fine tuning for tournaments.

    As far as ability goes i'm more of a Bill Parcells guy in that "you are what you are". I think the golfer that is fantastic at certain things but awful at others is largely an internet creation. But that's for another thread.

    Gotcha! Makes sense. I guess I am too cheap to buy a new one so I would take an old club of mine and being a GolfWRXer I got a couple of old shafts laying around to test (I think I have like 6 LOL) . But I have a couple cut 1 @ 44.5 and [email protected] 45" . I have not moved from my 915 yet, I do have a Fly Z as a back up driver but I also had this cut and its at 45". Did you at least experiment with it at one point in your career. As I gotta assume that 45.75" in a G400 gotta feel foreign as well?

    As for playing whats marketed to handicaps. Handicap does move quite a bit (amateurs wise). More so with this game scores fluctuate as well, I assume dedication and practice is the only way to keep the score down for most of use humans there are some naturally talented players, but likely rare by sure golfers numbers. So when a club is sold for X handicap is it something we accept to play because they said so? Or would it behoove us to dive deep into the game aspect to really fit our needs? (likely more of a rhetorical statement.)

    No i'm certainly not thinking you should just blindly accept anything, someone posted on page 1 that i'm not sure why we think these OEMs are evil though, like they want us to play something bad for us. They tend to design clubs that help higher indexes hit the ball high and straight , and lower indexes more penetrating and easier to manipulate spin. In a general sense this probably is a good thing for many people that fall within these handicap ranges, though there are always exceptions.

    I just dont know why it's such a big thing here to say "whoa not so fast"....like, GI or SGI clubs probably benefit a lot of players. Don't we have guys here who are like "man, GI clubs helped me play better golf"

    I took up skiing at 28, and sucked at it. I remember when i bought skis all i wanted was something that helped me go slower and turn easier. I didn't want to use the same stuff that Lindsay Vonn used or anything. I don't know if this is common in skiing or if it's the same as golf. I wouldn't really know, i pretty much hated skiing and stopped

    Ping G400 Max 10 w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20 w/S300
    Ping G410 4-SW w/S300
    Callaway MD 2.0 60 PM grind w/S300
    Odyssey O-works Red Tank #7
  • BigmeanBigmean Everything is Relative Members Posts: 4,970 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:
    This thread is like going to Walmart.

    I instantly feel better about being me.

    Finally, finally.....Someone FINALLY has won this thread......

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    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
    Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
    Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.
  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Members Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 2:46am #160

    @MtlJeff said:
    I took up skiing at 28, and sucked at it. I remember when i bought skis all i wanted was something that helped me go slower and turn easier. I didn't want to use the same stuff that Lindsay Vonn used or anything. I don't know if this is common in skiing or if it's the same as golf. I wouldn't really know, i pretty much hated skiing and stopped

    Skiing has made this transition long ago and everybody, from the freestyle park wonders, to backcountry adventurers, to big mountain video stars, to recreational beginners and intermediates, to pros racing SL, GS and SG for big money, are using skis that help them make turns easier and none of them are using old, classic straight skis that were pretty much the same thing from the 60s through the 80s. (OK, skis for the DH events may be debatable the exception to this, but the percentage of skiers actively racing downhill is comparable to the percentage of golfers using hickory.) Skis are immensely more friendly for all skiers now than they were 30 years ago.

    The same can be said for just about every other sport that uses a significant piece of gear - bikes, tennis, race cars, etc... All pros in those sports use the most "helpful" gear for their sport as the rules will allow. Baseball is probably the notable exception where they keep the gear tech low, but that is only at the pro levels and by mandate of rule. The implications of this for golf are interesting if you ponder it seriously: 1) All golfers, even the best on the PGA Tour, mishit shots from time to time so 2) why are pro golfers different from all other athletes in seeking the equipment that could help them the most? Are they just that thickheaded because golf is hidebound by tradition? Or, and this is the interesting question, are they not really that different at all? Hmmmm...

  • COL_BCOL_B BryanMembers Posts: 64 ✭✭

    @dciccoritti said:

    @sdandrea said:
    Yes. I'm a 13 handicapper and I play shovels (Big Bertha). My handicap would go up if the size of my irons went down...............I have proven this.

    You've proven this for yourself...not for others. My scoring went down and I don't even give blades all that much credit other than they are the ultimate GIGO irons on the market.

    There is a degree of physical limitation that starts to matter.

    I play with a group of great dudes. They are all in the their late 50s, have pot bellies, and lack flexibility.

    They play GIs because they are trying to get the most out of what their bodies can deliver -- there swings will always be big compromises based on physiology. There will always be a degree of "garbage"> @dubbelbogey said:

    @MtlJeff said:
    I took up skiing at 28, and sucked at it. I remember when i bought skis all i wanted was something that helped me go slower and turn easier. I didn't want to use the same stuff that Lindsay Vonn used or anything. I don't know if this is common in skiing or if it's the same as golf. I wouldn't really know, i pretty much hated skiing and stopped

    Skiing has made this transition long ago and everybody, from the freestyle park wonders, to backcountry adventurers, to big mountain video stars, to recreational beginners and intermediates, to pros racing SL, GS and SG for big money, are using skis that help them make turns easier and none of them are using old, classic straight skis that were pretty much the same thing from the 60s through the 80s. (OK, skis for the DH events may be debatable the exception to this, but the percentage of skiers actively racing downhill is comparable to the percentage of golfers using hickory.) Skis are immensely more friendly for all skiers now than they were 30 years ago.

    The same can be said for just about every other sport that uses a significant piece of gear - bikes, tennis, race cars, etc... All pros in those sports use the most "helpful" gear for their sport as the rules will allow. Baseball is probably the notable exception where they keep the gear tech low, but that is only at the pro levels and by mandate of rule. The implications of this for golf are interesting if you ponder it seriously: 1) All golfers, even the best on the PGA Tour, mishit shots from time to time so 2) why are pro golfers different from all other athletes in seeking the equipment that could help them the most? Are they just that thickheaded because golf is hidebound by tradition? Or, and this is the interesting question, are they not really that different at all? Hmmmm...

    I'm not sure there is any sport that prioritizes a "repeatable" shot -- in relatively static conditions -- the same way golf does.

    The more repeatable your swing, the less you need "help" and the more you are willing to sacrifice forgiveness for consistency across a small sweet spot.

    Maybe shooting sports -- but technology in bolt action target rifles is not substantively different than what was being produced in the 1930s.

    Callaway Epic Flash 9* (+1); PX Hzrdus Yellow 6.0 63g
    Callaway Epic Sub Zero 15* (-1); PX Hzrdus Yellow 76g 6.0
    Srixon U65 18* Stiff (stock shaft)
    Titleist T-MB 4 Iron
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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,674 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MtlJeff said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @MtlJeff said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @MtlJeff said:
    I genuinely find the subject interesting, I don't really want this to be blades vs cavities for the millionth time. I probably should've talked drivers more in the OP

    But like, i probably would not have considered the G400 max unless people here convinced me with near unanimous praise. I just didn't think it was designed for me, high spin and all that.

    But it's been a great driver. But I really wouldn't have looked at it based on how they marketed it

    So I guess it goes both ways a bit.

    Ironically my other driver is an F8+ at 8 degrees with an open face

    In all fairness it always does..... Hey Jeff I got a **** wrench questions.

    How does one quantify ability? What do I mean, When I didnt have my 2 & 4 year olds I would get to the range 2-3 times a week put in good honest practice. Work on both short game as well as long game. I get to play at least once a week to edify and work on a legit handicap. As I stated prior I got down to a 7 on a consistent basis. And then the first kid was born.....then the second kid...... current years....non practice, once a month golf and I shot 80 a month ago and shot 89 yesterday.

    Where do we draw that line, or what do YOU think is an appropriate marker that would dictate clubs for X ability?

    Lets (get away from the MB vs X)
    Lets do a G410 45.75" vs M6 45.75" vs TS 2 45.5"
    Vs Taking an ultra forgiving driver and cutting it down period to at least a 45" or even a 44.5" Is the 1+" worth the dispersion?
    Its funng when we talk about forgiving... But one thing that I have noticed the move to make the driver longer. would it be better to try and Cut a driver per say as most heads are pretty forgiving now days? As the intent is ball speed right? YET if we are not getting 1.5 smash, it means we are not getting the most efficient ball speed we can?

    These longer drivers I have to assume are half the cause of the lower smash factors?
    in all fairness... what is the difference of a 100mph SS but 1.45 vs 1.5 smash.... 5mph of ball speed...

    Sure with the 1/2" - 3/4" you may squeeze out a couple extra yards but Im sure the dispersion has gotten worse?

    Cutting a driver is a pain unless you custom order, at least for me. You run into SW issues and have to use a bunch of lead tape or hotmelt or whatever. I've never really had a massive issue with fairways, can usually find a stock 45-45.5 driver that i can hit a lot with , it's really about fine tuning for tournaments.

    As far as ability goes i'm more of a Bill Parcells guy in that "you are what you are". I think the golfer that is fantastic at certain things but awful at others is largely an internet creation. But that's for another thread.

    Gotcha! Makes sense. I guess I am too cheap to buy a new one so I would take an old club of mine and being a GolfWRXer I got a couple of old shafts laying around to test (I think I have like 6 LOL) . But I have a couple cut 1 @ 44.5 and [email protected] 45" . I have not moved from my 915 yet, I do have a Fly Z as a back up driver but I also had this cut and its at 45". Did you at least experiment with it at one point in your career. As I gotta assume that 45.75" in a G400 gotta feel foreign as well?

    As for playing whats marketed to handicaps. Handicap does move quite a bit (amateurs wise). More so with this game scores fluctuate as well, I assume dedication and practice is the only way to keep the score down for most of use humans there are some naturally talented players, but likely rare by sure golfers numbers. So when a club is sold for X handicap is it something we accept to play because they said so? Or would it behoove us to dive deep into the game aspect to really fit our needs? (likely more of a rhetorical statement.)

    No i'm certainly not thinking you should just blindly accept anything, someone posted on page 1 that i'm not sure why we think these OEMs are evil though, like they want us to play something bad for us. They tend to design clubs that help higher indexes hit the ball high and straight , and lower indexes more penetrating and easier to manipulate spin. In a general sense this probably is a good thing for many people that fall within these handicap ranges, though there are always exceptions.

    I just dont know why it's such a big thing here to say "whoa not so fast"....like, GI or SGI clubs probably benefit a lot of players. Don't we have guys here who are like "man, GI clubs helped me play better golf"

    I took up skiing at 28, and sucked at it. I remember when i bought skis all i wanted was something that helped me go slower and turn easier. I didn't want to use the same stuff that Lindsay Vonn used or anything. I don't know if this is common in skiing or if it's the same as golf. I wouldn't really know, i pretty much hated skiing and stopped

    Played baseball and soccer basically my whole life till highschool, wasnt that good at both, but was probably the weekest, No bat on the market could help me hit better and no glove was big enough to catch the ball better... Yeah quit and never looked back LOL I gotcha....

    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • mahoniemahonie EnglandMembers Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MelloYello said:

    @agolf1 said:
    I agree with your logic on simplifying your bag. I would like to move from fairway-hybrid to two fairways or two hybrids just to make the setup, swing, how the ball comes off the face the same.

    @agolf1 said:
    I also agree with many of your points about blades. However, regarding the 3-iron/4-iron, I'm not sure I agree.

    Well, I've been keeping my stats so far this year. I've played about 450 holes of golf in total. When I survey my last 10 rounds I'm averaging just under 60% fairways hit and just above 50% GIR on a course with a slope rating of 137. I don't play the tips but I play from about 6,700-yds most of the time.

    Point is, what stats I've found suggest that I have a long game which is "stronger" than my overall 8-handicap.

    According to the stats, that kind of GIR% is indicative of a player that's 0-5 handicap. The fact I'm still sitting at an 8 is due almost entirely to my lackluster putting. In the beginning of the year I was basically putting like a 25- or 30-handicap statistically (****.com). It was atrocious next to the rest of my game.

    It's better now but it's still far from "good." I'm still for the most part not making anything outside of 6-ft so birdies are exceedingly rare unless off a particularly good wedge. My putting is decent but it's still costing me 3-4 strokes per round in the form of short misses, bad lag putts and fewer 10-ft birdies than a good putter ought to have.

    So in my particular case I think I'm a better-than-average iron player. I played with a couple of guys recently who are both low, single-digits and based on what they showed, my long iron played is every bit as good if not better.

    It's not like I haven't tried hybrids, I just haven't found one that is worth the increased effort. And at this point, I ain't really interested in looking. The only times when I'm regularly called upon to hit a 3- or 4-iron is on a long Par-3. So I'm hitting off a "perfect" lie.

    @agolf1 said:
    But at the end of the day we stuck a less forgiving, harder to hit club in the bag, which doesn't fully match the basic premise of not flushing it = get more help.

    Eh...that's not an accurate way to describe what I've done.

    I kept 3- and 4-irons (which are easy to launch off a tee mind you) largely because 80% of my shots with those clubs are on Par-3 holes where the irons will out-perform the hybrid by providing me a club I know I can launch well without being scared of going left/right.

    If I was hitting approaches from the fairway, I'd certainly care more about that hybrid and it's ability to elevate the ball!

    @agolf1 said:
    Of course, all of these club comparisons/choices have trade-offs and it's not a simple question to answer whether the benefits of the harder to hit club are worth it. Everyone would agree the benefits are there for Tiger Woods and his blades. Most would disagree that an average 20 handicap can benefit from the MBs. Between these goal posts it gets tricky.

    Yeah, I agree. My iron game is reasonably strong and I'll be the first to tell you that there's not a single shot I need to hit that I can't somehow produce with these CBs.

    @agolf1 said:
    This is definitely a minority view, but I actually think more people in the say 6-12 index range would benefit from GI irons (know you use and think the players CBs match up better for this range). For any individual, we can talk about the looks, offset, sole width, ability to work the ball, etc, etc. But I think these players **** up a shot (i.e. miss the target somehow, someway) more often than not and more than we'd all like to admit. Fundamentally with regards to forgiveness, Players CB -> GI -> SGI -> Hybrid at 30* plus is the same argument. We all chose to stop somewhere for some personal reasons.

    I play with a lot of people in that range. Virtually all my regular partners are in that range. One plays Mizzy CBs another Titleist CBs and another AP2's...the club they're using is not the thing that breeds inconsistency. I think they're all appropriately fit (at least to the point they shouldn't be worrying about it).

    GI are essentially "distance" irons. I don't think anyone needs to play that kind of technology unless they legitimately need help launching the ball and gaining more distance.

    To me, PCB are essentially "standard" golf clubs. I would start there and only go up or down based on finding a unique case. Blades might be appropriate to a really high-level player whereas the GI clubs might be useful for someone who has a particular deficiency in their swing that limits their physical ability to hit the ball.

    But 90% of those guys out there that are between 18- and 50-yo and who practice regularly enough to have a solid game...seems to me they ought to have a more or less standard club.

    If you want to err on the side of adding a little extra forgiveness there are lots of PCB designs that do that. I believe they're now trying to market these as "Player's Distance Irons." Then again if you want a CB that provides as much blade-esque response as possible there are good options there, too.

    If your putting is costing you shots it’s generally an indicator that you’re under pressure from not being close enough to have a decent chance. In your stats it would be interesting to see what your proximity to the hole in regulation is. For me this is the best indicator of what areas of my game need more work.

    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8
  • MyherobobhopeMyherobobhope hey there, blimpy boy. Flying through the sky so fancy free. Members Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Mellow yellow went over his distance from the hole, mostly... closer to the hole always helps, but he’s not sinking 10 footers and is three putting longer putts... his roi is going to be higher practicing putting vs irons...

    Current Bag (Rebuilding as of 5/6/19)
    Driver: Adams Fast 12 LS with Matrix Black Tie (to be replaced)
    3W: Adams Fast 12 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    Hybrid: Bridgestone j40 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    4-9: Taylor Made Oversize (to be replaced)
    PW: Mizuon HMP with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    50 degree Vokey with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    56 and 60 degree Cleveland Wedges (to be replaced)
    Odyssey Tank #7 (only club I'm keeping this season)

  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 12:00pm #165

    @mahonie said:
    If your putting is costing you shots it’s generally an indicator that you’re under pressure from not being close enough to have a decent chance. In your stats it would be interesting to see what your proximity to the hole in regulation is. For me this is the best indicator of what areas of my game need more work.

    Yeah, you would be right but in my case this isn't a complex scenario. The guy in question is just a bad putter, haha.

    I began the year horrible at every single element of putting. I wasn't making a putt outside of about 1.5-ft. I was leaving 30-footers 15-ft short, LOL.

    Statistically I was just horrible at everything.

    Last year I had a round with 12 GIR. I didn't make a single birdie. I putted 40-something times and shot in the 80s....with 12 GIR! I remember looking back at that and counting a half-dozen or more 3-putts and a slew of short ones that should've been gimme putts. I literally gave away 8-9 shots with horrific putting.

    Earlier this year I began practicing my putting religiously knowing that playing golf was pointless if I didn't improve.

    I've now gotten to the point that I'm an "average" putter. Over the last 6 rounds, I'm putting 33.5 times per round, which is down significantly from earlier this year when I was putting 38-40 times per round.

    I'm making most of my putts inside 3-ft but still, nothing's a gimme and I routinely have rounds where I miss a couple of those. And again, my lag putting isn't the worst you've ever seen but there's a lot of "hit it and hope" still going on which means that I'm still prone to a few very unnecessary 3-putts.

    One of the reasons that a guy like me who's played 450 holes already this year isn't better than an 8-handicap is that I've only made 11 birdies this year. And of those, only 3 have been with irons.

    All 3 were off of short irons. The other 8 came on wedges and most of those involved getting up and down from beside the green on a Par-5.

    Heck, there was an instance about 2 months ago where I hit a wedge inside 2-ft a walked away with a 2-putt par.

    I hope those days are mostly behind me but I sucked at putting for a LONG time and never scored worth a crap as a result. It's just another reason why I'm so adamant that people work on score and ditch their weird obsession with how their irons look/feel.

    I used to love hitting blades on the range and working on my swing. I did that for 10 years never working on my putting at all. Consequently I may have hit a few nice iron shots during a round but I could never capitalize.

    This year I'm really trying to be a mature, responsible player focused on score. I'm worlds better for it but still not where I ought to be.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5) w. Tensei Pro Orange
    3w: TaylorMade '07 Burner
    5w: Nike SQ II
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Select
  • bodhi555bodhi555 Members Posts: 866 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 12:12pm #166

    Looking at the original marketing material for Nike's VR range, it looks as if the Pro Blades were originally intended for single figure handicappers and below, so as I've been off single figures for give or take 20 years or so I'm pretty confident they are the right clubs for me - they've been fully fitted with the shaft that works best . However I can't say I find them particularly unforgiving, but then their MPF is remarkably similar to a set of 718 CB's, so given how much they've been praised on this thread for how much help they give, this is hardly surprising.

    They also mean when I put it closer than 15 feet away on my approach it's skill rather than luck - but then if I considered close approached to be luck I'd probably be shopping for a fishing rod rather than a set of irons.

    In fact I played 18 yesterday in our Bank Holiday Stableford, and went round in a rather disappointing 84. Afterwards I started to look through what I'd played and what cost me, and it came to:

    Closer than 3 foot putts missed - 4
    Bad bounce putting me into a tree - 2 (admittedly I should have taken 3 wood rather than Driver, but ended with double rather than par)
    Hitting a full wedge rather than 3/4 - 2 (missing long with a blade, that shouldn't happen Shirley? :))
    2 hole phase of chunking approaches - 3 shots
    Landing a chip a foot too close to an evil pin position that meant that extra foot past the hole took it off the green - 1 shot

    So apart from a chunk with my 8 iron, my choice of irons are not what caused me to score higher than intended. My old man always said it was the soft bit on the end of the club that was the issue, and given the bulk of the shots were given away through putting/concentration issues, I would say that is where I need to pay attention.

    Unless you are suggesting a 718 CB will let me get away with hitting the ground 2 inches before the ball as I've stopped rotating on the way through?

    The Dee Three: Titleist 917 D3 9.5 degree - Aldila Rogue Max 65X
    The Stenson: Titleist 917 F3 15 degree - Aldila Rogue Max 75X
    The Walking Stick: Titleist 818 H2 19 degree - Aldila Rogue Max 85X
    The Blades: Nike VR Pro 4i - PW - DG S400 TI Shaft
    The Rusties: Nike Engage 50, 54 Square Sole, 58 Toe Sweep
    The Putter: Nike "The Oven" Method 003
    Balls: Nike RZN Tour Black/Platinum, Bridgestone Tour B XS, Titleist AVX
    Bag: Sun Mountain Four Five


  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Lots of interesting thoughts and comments expressed here. I think it's good that the conversation has evolved to discuss hybrids, etc.

    I do not agree with the "simplify my bag" crowd. There are different clubs for different purposes, and generally speaking, the vast majority of HC players at any level are hurting their games by keeping long irons (2,3,4...and even 5) in play instead of hybrids. I played in a regional event over the weekend (Fri,Sat,Sun) in the "senior" division (50-60). Lots of good players, most of whom played collegiately and are around scratch + or -, and every one that I saw had at least one hybrid in play. Hardly ever see a 3 iron, though some guys will use one as a driving iron of sorts yet still have at least one hybrid.

    When you play in these things you realize that the best players are the opposite of many of the "posers" on these forums. Their clubs are often mismatched and almost everyone has that "old faithful" that's been in the bag for 10+ years.

    I can instantly think of 3 shots from this weekend's event where had I not had my 4 hybrid and had to use a long iron, the shot would have literally been impossible (for me). On the 18th hole my tee shot ended up in a FW bunker. Good lie, compacted sand, but high bunker lip and 187 to the green over water into a 15+ mph headwind. I was able to pop it on the green and 2 putt from 40 ft. No way I'd be able to pull that off with a 3 iron...literally no way. Another was a downwind par 5 where I was able land it softly on the green from 218 yards to a firm down grain green because of the launch and trajectory that I'd never be able to achieve with a long iron. (For reference, my driver SS is ~107 and i hit my 7 iron 170)

    I truly dont understand why anyone would believe that a hybrid is any more difficult to control directionally than the equivalent long iron. Face angle at impact is face angle at impact. The swing principles are the same. They go through the turf WAY easier, and get the ball in the air much more quickly and with greater ease.

    I also don't think there's much merit to the claims of not having enough practice time to master different types of clubs. Again, the swing required is basically the same for all clubs with the exception of driver because it's on a tee. I literally cannot remember the last time I actually practiced with my hybrids. I typically practice/ warm-up with driver, a mid iron, and a short iron exclusively, yet have no problems with my hybrids on the course.

    Lastly, I will acknowledge that finding the "right" hybrid can be challenging, but more so for the higher swing speed better player than your typical mid cap. For me, although the ability to hit it high is a MAJOR advantage, I also need to know that I can flight it down reliably. I've also found that many of the standard hybrids are designed to prevent a slice, which can make them tough to fade when needed, or avoid over-drawing. I use an 8 year old "Tour" model 4 hybrid for that reason, and my stronger hybrid (Kasco K2K) is literally 20 years old.

    Take it FWIW, but I started the game in my late 20s. My swing is no sight to behold and I'm no pro, but I have won several club championships, county championships and am reasonably competitive in state level comps. I have more in common with you guys who are mid caps trying to get to the next level than I do with pros or high level pedigrees ams who grew up playing this crazy game....

    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,882 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Mellow. Word of advise from a fellow putting struggler turned confident guy on the green. Speed. Focus on getting speed right. That’s what causes 3-4 putts. Find a stroke that will work under the gun and won’t cause those 15 footers that come up 5 feet short or go by 8 ft.

    I don’t know why some folks still claim that putting is the easiest part of this game. It most certainly is not for some. Just watch Jason duffners highlights from this past week in Charlotte. As balky of a putter as I’ve ever seen ... including 20 handicap guys.

    Ping G410  11.2* Tensei pro OrangeV2 proto 70TX 
    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21* ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  4-PW   Modus 130X 
    Ping Glide Forged  50  54 60 s400
    Spider X Tour Armlock.  42 inch with jumbo max 17 inch  grip.   


  • mukstermukster The secret IS in the dirt North of the 49thMembers Posts: 3,589 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Lol,
    I get where the topic came from, based on a few other posts that were started recently. I was wanting to start something similar, but with my tongue more heavily in my cheek.
    Gotta love this place. A bunch of people show up and comment on why mid cappers should not use anything less than GI or SGI clubs, then I pop over to any of the blades vs. cavity threads where some poor 20 cap schnook is told that blades are far better for him (feedback , blah blah, etc.) if he ever wants to get any better.
    Apparently not caring and "playing what I play" is also not good enough! Last time I saw people so obsessed about another guy's equipment was at band camp.
    For the record, I am a 12hcp and I love my Srixon z765s. Guess I should have asked for permission here before I bought them :smile:
    In response to Jeff's question, I'm not sure what irons are designed for my handicap range, but of all my recent irons that I have owned, my current gamers and my old Nike VR Split cavities have given me the best consistency and results for my game.

    Callaway XR16 driver, 9 degrees, Diamana S+ shaft
    Callaway Epic Subzero 13.5, Mitsubishi Fubuki Z 65
    Cobra Baffler Rail H 17* hybrid, 
    Cobra F8 22* hybrid
    Srixon Z765 5-PW irons, KBS Tour V shafts
    Cleveland CBX 50* wedge
    Hogan Equalizer 54* wedge
    Mizuno S18 58* wedge
    Nike Method Core Drone 2.0 putter
  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:
    I do not agree with the "simplify my bag" crowd. There are different clubs for different purposes

    My comment here was that I would prefer to have more clubs (FW-FW or Hybrid-Hybrid) that are the same (except for loft) on look at address, feel during the swing, how the ball comes off the face. However, I've so far always found some situations where I think the hybrid (vs. 2nd fairway) is slightly better so I haven't changed (but I would still kind of like to do so). I know I can't hit the irons at these lofts so that option is out. I'm also not sure I can hit the 18-19 hybrid high enough when needed (hence the 5 wood). So in some ways I agree with you in what I theoretically want vs. what I have found practical to get around the course.

    @dpb5031 said:
    I truly dont understand why anyone would believe that a hybrid is any more difficult to control directionally than the equivalent long iron. Face angle at impact is face angle at impact. The swing principles are the same. They go through the turf WAY easier, and get the ball in the air much more quickly and with greater ease.

    Personally, I think the shorter, heavier shaft/clubhead (of an iron) is easier to hit straight. The main issue is when someone doesn't have enough clubhead speed to hit an iron of a certain loft. I mean, no matter where our hybrid start in the bag almost everyone could add another one considering the offerings that are out there (caveat that some of the more player's hybrids seem to stop in the low 20 degree range). I guess you can claim that the higher lofted ones are harder to control the trajectory on vs. your iron, as you mention below.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    PING G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    PING Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  PING Eye 2+ (58*) or PING Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 1:54pm #171

    @dpb5031 said:
    Lots of interesting thoughts and comments expressed here. I think it's good that the conversation has evolved to discuss hybrids, etc.

    Well, you certainly have me dreaming of towering long irons but I'm not totally convinced because I keep thinking of moments where according to you I ought to have a hybrid yet the results don't scream so.

    I played 54 holes last weekend. I used my 3-iron twice on a long Par-3 and twice on Par-4 approaches after bad drives that left me further back and out of position. Both Par-4 approaches found the center of the green. Can't do better than that. The two Par-3 tee shots missed just short (the appropriate miss for this hole) from where I made par on one and bogey on the other after missing a putt inside 4-ft.

    To me, that level of golf when hitting my freakin' 3-iron is hardly weak.

    Case in point, there was a particular Par-4 hole where I hit 3-iron onto the green last weekend. I had totally forgotten about this one in my previous post but it's a shining example of why irons are so good.

    One of the things I often use the 3-iron for is a hard slice recovery. It can just be a bender around some obstacle that goes maybe 190-yards or a punch-out that goes 150. Again, a normal 3-iron is about 210 for me.

    For whatever reason, I'm quite good at this hard-slice shot. I can't hit the hard hook from the left side of the course, but the slice? You bet!

    Last weekend I was sitting in the right rough of a mid-length, soft-dogleg-right Par-4. The green was out of view but I knew where the pin was. I was totally blocked out but I knew my slice 3-iron was perfect. I had to carry a creek at 150 but that was no concern since the green was well beyond that. I just had to get the slice to happen. The ball was sitting up so I went for it.

    I knocked it center green and 2-putted from 15-ft for my par.

    So, in my mind, hybrids are great for the driving range and for folks who lack swing speed. They can also be beneficial to the guy who's course affords him 3- and 4-irons into the Par-5 holes which mind does not. All the Par-5s I play on a regular basis require a great drive followed by a 5w (or more).

    But when I need to pull off something like the above I want an iron. I'm not going to be able to slice a hybrid like that on command with the same level of control.

    You described an approach from a fairway bunker that was 200+ out. I hit one fairway bunker approach this weekend with a 7-iron onto the green. That was it. There's really only about one big fairway bunker on my course which might give me a long-iron into a Par-5 and that particular green complex mandates you miss short as it has nasty bunkers left & right of the green. If I happen to miss in that fairway bunker my best play is punching a 4- or 5-iron out to the front edge and trying to get up and down from an easy spot knowing that chipping is the best area of my game. Heck, I can't even see the stick on that approach because of the topography.

    So horses for courses and all that jazz...you have to look at the player, his strengths and what he's being asked to do.

    If I was hitting more approach shots from the fairway straight at the stick, a hybrid would make sense but for me the iron is clearly working fine enough at the moment.

    I have a 20-deg Pro Black 9031 at home as well as a 19-deg Tour Edge E8. It's not like I haven't tried hybrids. I was gaming one earlier this year. It just resulted in me going with the 42" 17-deg HL fairway and the traditional 3-iron as a better, more flexible pairing.

    Post edited by MelloYello on
    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5) w. Tensei Pro Orange
    3w: TaylorMade '07 Burner
    5w: Nike SQ II
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Select
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:
    Mellow. Word of advise from a fellow putting struggler turned confident guy on the green. Speed. Focus on getting speed right. That’s what causes 3-4 putts. Find a stroke that will work under the gun and won’t cause those 15 footers that come up 5 feet short or go by 8 ft.

    I don’t know why some folks still claim that putting is the easiest part of this game. It most certainly is not for some. Just watch Jason duffners highlights from this past week in Charlotte. As balky of a putter as I’ve ever seen ... including 20 handicap guys.

    Thanks, bro. And you're right. The better I get with speed, the fewer putts I'll ultimately need.

    I can't tell you how much better I feel already on the green though. As soon as I started practicing daily with my putter I got worlds better, quickly!

    Right now, the biggest area of concern for me is speed on short ones. I'm not going to lag all the 30-footers to tap-in range. There is obviously always going to be some amount of work to do on the other end.

    The course I play simply NEVER gives you a straight putt inside 3- or 4-ft. Nobody makes all their "tap-ins" at this course. Unfortunately, it's just a tough feature of this course that's demoralizing and frustrating but it really pushes you to improve.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5) w. Tensei Pro Orange
    3w: TaylorMade '07 Burner
    5w: Nike SQ II
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Select
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MelloYello said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Lots of interesting thoughts and comments expressed here. I think it's good that the conversation has evolved to discuss hybrids, etc.

    Well, you certainly have me dreaming of towering long irons but I'm not totally convinced because I keep thinking of moments where according to you I ought to have a hybrid yet the results don't scream so.

    I played 54 holes last weekend. I used my 3-iron twice on a long Par-3 and twice on Par-4 approaches after bad drives that left me further back and out of position. Both Par-4 approaches found the center of the green. Can't do better than that. The two Par-3 tee shots missed just short (the appropriate miss for this hole) from where I made par on one and bogey on the other after missing a putt inside 4-ft.

    To me, that level of golf when hitting my freakin' 3-iron is hardly weak.

    Case in point, there was a particular Par-4 hole where I hit 3-iron onto the green last weekend. I had totally forgotten about this one in my previous post but it's a shining example of why irons are so good.

    One of the things I often use the 3-iron for is a hard slice recovery. It can just be a bender around some obstacle that goes maybe 190-yards or a punch-out that goes 150. Again, a normal 3-iron is about 210 for me.

    For whatever reason, I'm quite good at this hard-slice shot. I can't hit the hard hook from the left side of the course, but the slice? You bet!

    Last weekend I was sitting in the right rough of a mid-length, soft-dogleg-right Par-4. The green was out of view but I knew where the pin was. I was totally blocked out but I knew my slice 3-iron was perfect. I had to carry a creek at 150 but that was no concern since the green was well beyond that. I just had to get the slice to happen. The ball was sitting up so I went for it.

    I knocked it center green and 2-putted from 15-ft for my par.

    So, in my mind, hybrids are great for the driving range and for folks who lack swing speed but when I need to pull off something like that I want an iron. I'm not going to be able to slice a hybrid like that on command with the same level of control.

    You described an approach from a fairway bunker that was 200+ out. I hit one fairway bunker approach this weekend with a 7-iron onto the green. That was it. There's really only about one big fairway bunker on my course which might give me a long-iron into a Par-5 and that particular green complex mandates you miss short as it has nasty bunkers left & right of the green. If I happen to miss in that fairway bunker my best play is punching a 4- or 5-iron out to the front edge and trying to get up and down from an easy spot knowing that chipping is the best area of my game. Heck, I can't even see the stick on that approach because of the topography.

    So horses for courses and all that jazz...you have to look at the player, his strengths and what he's being asked to do.

    If I was hitting more approach shots from the fairway straight at the stick, a hybrid would make sense but for me the iron is clearly working fine enough at the moment.

    I have a 20-deg Pro Black 9031 at home as well as a 19-deg Tour Edge E8. It's not like I haven't tried hybrids. I was gaming one earlier this year. It just resulted in me going with the 42" 17-deg HL fairway and the traditional 3-iron as a better, more flexible pairing.

    Well, I'll agree that every course is going to present different challenges, but when you play tournament golf or money matches you really to think of strokes gained or lost. Not in a straight statistical sense, but in a real practical way.

    I'm not a low swing speed player (yet lol) and I'm generally a high ball hitter with all of my clubs. Still, I see huge "real life" advantages in hybrids and cannot imagine putting a 3 iron back in play. Let's see, quicker launch (many advantages to this), higher overall trajectory (same), easier to extricate the ball from rough, ultra-forgiving out of fairway bunkers, more forgiving even out of a fairway lie, still workable in all directions, and often a good option to tee off with on short/tight holes. I could show you a half a dozen shots in 10 minutes that I guarantee you could execute with reasonably good results with a hybrid that you'd have practically zero chance of executing to the same degree with a three iron.

    This reminds me of my two daughters, both great, but very different personalities. One plays D1 college golf on a full ride, the other gave up the game young but has found success in many other ways. When they were kids and I was attempting to teach them the game, one listened attentively and really tried to implement what was being taught. The other would say, "that's fine dad, but this is the way I DO IT," as she continued to hit grounders to short-stop...lol! Can you guess which one is now playing college golf...lol?

    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,882 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MelloYello said:

    @bladehunter said:
    Mellow. Word of advise from a fellow putting struggler turned confident guy on the green. Speed. Focus on getting speed right. That’s what causes 3-4 putts. Find a stroke that will work under the gun and won’t cause those 15 footers that come up 5 feet short or go by 8 ft.

    I don’t know why some folks still claim that putting is the easiest part of this game. It most certainly is not for some. Just watch Jason duffners highlights from this past week in Charlotte. As balky of a putter as I’ve ever seen ... including 20 handicap guys.

    Thanks, bro. And you're right. The better I get with speed, the fewer putts I'll ultimately need.

    I can't tell you how much better I feel already on the green though. As soon as I started practicing daily with my putter I got worlds better, quickly!

    Right now, the biggest area of concern for me is speed on short ones. I'm not going to lag all the 30-footers to tap-in range. There is obviously always going to be some amount of work to do on the other end.

    The course I play simply NEVER gives you a straight putt inside 3- or 4-ft. Nobody makes all their "tap-ins" at this course. Unfortunately, it's just a tough feature of this course that's demoralizing and frustrating but it really pushes you to improve.

    I hear ya. My course is the same. Many many 3-4 footers you have to start outside the hole. And it’s Bermuda with grain too. So a certain amount of witch craft involved. Lol.

    For that you have to just adopt the “ it is what it is” mindset and be ok with a miss of you hit your intended line. If you don’t then of course the miss is on you. And it’s a stroke or strike issue vs a read.

    Ping G410  11.2* Tensei pro OrangeV2 proto 70TX 
    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21* ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  4-PW   Modus 130X 
    Ping Glide Forged  50  54 60 s400
    Spider X Tour Armlock.  42 inch with jumbo max 17 inch  grip.   


  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 3:16pm #175

    @bladehunter said:
    I hear ya. My course is the same. Many many 3-4 footers you have to start outside the hole. And it’s Bermuda with grain too. So a certain amount of witch craft involved. Lol.

    For that you have to just adopt the “ it is what it is” mindset and be ok with a miss of you hit your intended line. If you don’t then of course the miss is on you. And it’s a stroke or strike issue vs a read.

    Yep, Bermuda here as well.

    Thankfully, the strongest aspect of my putting has always been reading the green. I'm very rarely surprised by how a putt breaks. Every once in awhile a putt will stay straight but that seems to be about it.

    And starting the ball on a consistent line is something I'm getting very comfortable with now that I'm practicing regularly.

    Like you said, it's having a precise ability to play with speed that's really the witchcraft of putting. It's knowing when to hit a 4-footer firm and yet still having the feel to dial it back when necessary.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5) w. Tensei Pro Orange
    3w: TaylorMade '07 Burner
    5w: Nike SQ II
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Select
  • BigmeanBigmean Everything is Relative Members Posts: 4,970 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 4:01pm #176

    Do you find that the highest possible moi putters are the best to do that with since small misses will travel closer to the center struck distance trying to be achieved? Is it safe to presume your putter is a spider or futura type head?

    Just curious, not meant to be a total dig😀

    Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
    Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
    Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.
  • gbartkogbartko Whooooo! Members Posts: 663 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:
    Lots of interesting thoughts and comments expressed here. I think it's good that the conversation has evolved to discuss hybrids, etc.

    I do not agree with the "simplify my bag" crowd. There are different clubs for different purposes, and generally speaking, the vast majority of HC players at any level are hurting their games by keeping long irons (2,3,4...and even 5) in play instead of hybrids. I played in a regional event over the weekend (Fri,Sat,Sun) in the "senior" division (50-60). Lots of good players, most of whom played collegiately and are around scratch + or -, and every one that I saw had at least one hybrid in play. Hardly ever see a 3 iron, though some guys will use one as a driving iron of sorts yet still have at least one hybrid.

    When you play in these things you realize that the best players are the opposite of many of the "posers" on these forums. Their clubs are often mismatched and almost everyone has that "old faithful" that's been in the bag for 10+ years.

    I can instantly think of 3 shots from this weekend's event where had I not had my 4 hybrid and had to use a long iron, the shot would have literally been impossible (for me). On the 18th hole my tee shot ended up in a FW bunker. Good lie, compacted sand, but high bunker lip and 187 to the green over water into a 15+ mph headwind. I was able to pop it on the green and 2 putt from 40 ft. No way I'd be able to pull that off with a 3 iron...literally no way. Another was a downwind par 5 where I was able land it softly on the green from 218 yards to a firm down grain green because of the launch and trajectory that I'd never be able to achieve with a long iron. (For reference, my driver SS is ~107 and i hit my 7 iron 170)

    I truly dont understand why anyone would believe that a hybrid is any more difficult to control directionally than the equivalent long iron. Face angle at impact is face angle at impact. The swing principles are the same. They go through the turf WAY easier, and get the ball in the air much more quickly and with greater ease.

    I also don't think there's much merit to the claims of not having enough practice time to master different types of clubs. Again, the swing required is basically the same for all clubs with the exception of driver because it's on a tee. I literally cannot remember the last time I actually practiced with my hybrids. I typically practice/ warm-up with driver, a mid iron, and a short iron exclusively, yet have no problems with my hybrids on the course.

    Lastly, I will acknowledge that finding the "right" hybrid can be challenging, but more so for the higher swing speed better player than your typical mid cap. For me, although the ability to hit it high is a MAJOR advantage, I also need to know that I can flight it down reliably. I've also found that many of the standard hybrids are designed to prevent a slice, which can make them tough to fade when needed, or avoid over-drawing. I use an 8 year old "Tour" model 4 hybrid for that reason, and my stronger hybrid (Kasco K2K) is literally 20 years old.

    Take it FWIW, but I started the game in my late 20s. My swing is no sight to behold and I'm no pro, but I have won several club championships, county championships and am reasonably competitive in state level comps. I have more in common with you guys who are mid caps trying to get to the next level than I do with pros or high level pedigrees ams who grew up playing this crazy game....

    great post! i'm with you on the hybrids. i dont necessarily practice with them but have no issues, in fact, love them, out on the course. it did take a while to find the right ones and i did put steel shafts and cut them to the same length of the iron they replace. i think there is a certain stigma with hybrids that you are somehow "less than" if you use them. i can hit a 3 iron and a 4 iron pretty **** good - but no where near how well i can hit the hybrid equivalents.

    Ping Rapture 12.5
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  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 4:22pm #178

    @bodhi555 said:
    They also mean when I put it closer than 15 feet away on my approach it's skill rather than luck - but then if I considered close approached to be luck I'd probably be shopping for a fishing rod rather than a set of irons.

    This is a perfect example of what I'd call the "hubris of the hacker."

    The hacker looks at his best shots and believe that's who he really is. The bad swings are somehow not "really" who he is.

    I could throw down 5 balls in the flattest portion of the fairway. Let's say you have a perfect number for a 7-iron with no wind whatsoever.

    Even as a low-handicap player you wouldn't be hitting the green with all 5 of those balls.

    I'm sure you want to take all the credit for that one ball that ends up 5-ft from the cup. Sure, you can do that. But you also have to take credit for the one that ends up 30-ft from the cup or the one you pulled left into the bunker.

    This is why we look at proximity to the pin. And I promise you that your proximity to the pin with a 7-iron (even from ideal conditions) is not going to be 15-ft.

    Now if you were in complete control you'd hit them all to 5-ft. But you weren't.

    What controls the stuff we don't control? Call it fate. Call it fortune. Call it luck. Call it whatever.

    But it's governed by probabilities.

    So if you played a round of golf and came to that same spot in the fairway and happened to stick it close I'd say, great shot. But some portion of that was good fortune. You hit the 1-out-of-5 kind of shot.

    That's not offensive. That's simply statistics. That's how golf works.

    Or maybe you're the guy who always hits his 7-iron to 5-ft, IDK.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5) w. Tensei Pro Orange
    3w: TaylorMade '07 Burner
    5w: Nike SQ II
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Select
  • duffer987duffer987 I'm old enough to remember a time when Ignore and Feedback worked. Canadian in CaliforniaMembers Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @gbartko said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Lots of interesting thoughts and comments expressed here. I think it's good that the conversation has evolved to discuss hybrids, etc.

    I do not agree with the "simplify my bag" crowd. There are different clubs for different purposes, and generally speaking, the vast majority of HC players at any level are hurting their games by keeping long irons (2,3,4...and even 5) in play instead of hybrids. I played in a regional event over the weekend (Fri,Sat,Sun) in the "senior" division (50-60). Lots of good players, most of whom played collegiately and are around scratch + or -, and every one that I saw had at least one hybrid in play. Hardly ever see a 3 iron, though some guys will use one as a driving iron of sorts yet still have at least one hybrid.

    When you play in these things you realize that the best players are the opposite of many of the "posers" on these forums. Their clubs are often mismatched and almost everyone has that "old faithful" that's been in the bag for 10+ years.

    I can instantly think of 3 shots from this weekend's event where had I not had my 4 hybrid and had to use a long iron, the shot would have literally been impossible (for me). On the 18th hole my tee shot ended up in a FW bunker. Good lie, compacted sand, but high bunker lip and 187 to the green over water into a 15+ mph headwind. I was able to pop it on the green and 2 putt from 40 ft. No way I'd be able to pull that off with a 3 iron...literally no way. Another was a downwind par 5 where I was able land it softly on the green from 218 yards to a firm down grain green because of the launch and trajectory that I'd never be able to achieve with a long iron. (For reference, my driver SS is ~107 and i hit my 7 iron 170)

    I truly dont understand why anyone would believe that a hybrid is any more difficult to control directionally than the equivalent long iron. Face angle at impact is face angle at impact. The swing principles are the same. They go through the turf WAY easier, and get the ball in the air much more quickly and with greater ease.

    I also don't think there's much merit to the claims of not having enough practice time to master different types of clubs. Again, the swing required is basically the same for all clubs with the exception of driver because it's on a tee. I literally cannot remember the last time I actually practiced with my hybrids. I typically practice/ warm-up with driver, a mid iron, and a short iron exclusively, yet have no problems with my hybrids on the course.

    Lastly, I will acknowledge that finding the "right" hybrid can be challenging, but more so for the higher swing speed better player than your typical mid cap. For me, although the ability to hit it high is a MAJOR advantage, I also need to know that I can flight it down reliably. I've also found that many of the standard hybrids are designed to prevent a slice, which can make them tough to fade when needed, or avoid over-drawing. I use an 8 year old "Tour" model 4 hybrid for that reason, and my stronger hybrid (Kasco K2K) is literally 20 years old.

    Take it FWIW, but I started the game in my late 20s. My swing is no sight to behold and I'm no pro, but I have won several club championships, county championships and am reasonably competitive in state level comps. I have more in common with you guys who are mid caps trying to get to the next level than I do with pros or high level pedigrees ams who grew up playing this crazy game....

    great post! i'm with you on the hybrids. i dont necessarily practice with them but have no issues, in fact, love them, out on the course. it did take a while to find the right ones and i did put steel shafts and cut them to the same length of the iron they replace. i think there is a certain stigma with hybrids that you are somehow "less than" if you use them. i can hit a 3 iron and a 4 iron pretty **** good - but no where near how well i can hit the hybrid equivalents.

    I got a 27* 913H 4 years ago now, to go along with my 21* 913H and it works a charm. I also have a Wilson 3 iron in the bag that does a job. Build you bag however you need to play well and enjoy the game for sure. And if enjoying looking at your clubs in your bag is part of it, well that's fine too. As I will readily admit MP18 MBs looked way sweeter than the S55s, but not enough to make up for scoring differentials :)

  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 4:34pm #180

    @Bigmean said:
    Do you find that the highest possible moi putters are the best to do that with since small misses will travel closer to the center struck distance trying to be achieved? Is it safe to presume your putter is a spider or futura type head?

    Just curious, not meant to be a total dig😀

    Is this at me?

    I was putting with an Odyssey 2-ball last year and began this year with that same model.

    It did perform really well for me and I credit it for the turn-around I began to make last year. For whatever reason I started really struggling to release it and felt it was time to go back to a smaller, more conventional head.

    I should also note that Odyssey never puts their grips on very well so the dang thing wasn't perfectly square to begin with.

    The putter I have now is a standard Anser-type with more mass. It's kind of the best of both worlds. I think the similar face-balanced nature of it still help straighten me out (just like the 2-ball) but I get a bit more of that traditional feeling of precision which helps in controlling distance.

    Bigger putters definitely seem to have an effect but they "take over" your stroke IMHO. That can be good if you're really bad, haha, which I certainly was.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5) w. Tensei Pro Orange
    3w: TaylorMade '07 Burner
    5w: Nike SQ II
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Select
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019 4:45pm #181

    @gbartko said:
    ...and i did put steel shafts and cut them to the same length of the iron they replace.

    Well, there you go. I think retaining the steel shaft is really what like about the iron. I know that for me, my misses are ugly lateral misses that come from not having a great swing. I spin out and push it right. Or sometimes I get over the top and pull it hard left.

    A graphite-shafted hybrid has a totally different feeling in my hands versus a long iron and it's not worth the risk for me without a lot more practice.

    I would like to hit a nice hybrid with a steel shaft but I honest never have. I imagine it would be the best of both worlds, IDK.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5) w. Tensei Pro Orange
    3w: TaylorMade '07 Burner
    5w: Nike SQ II
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Select

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