Scoring differential in junior events with and without spectators

I'm really only referring to SCPGA junior tournaments (9-11 yr division) since I have experience in these. Essentially, they run numerous tournaments throughout the year and some courses allow spectators and others don't. One thing I have started to notice is that the 'non spectator' events are normally larger and the winner shoots a score that is noticeably lower than their average. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but I've seen it enough to where it has to be something besides coincidence. A part of me feels as though certain players will shy away from 'spectator' events since I've seen several parents actually tally scores for all the players in the group.

Please discuss.

> @kekoa said:

> I'm really only referring to SCPGA junior tournaments (9-11 yr division) since I have experience in these. Essentially, they run numerous tournaments throughout the year and some courses allow spectators and others don't. One thing I have started to notice is that the 'non spectator' events are normally larger and the winner shoots a score that is noticeably lower than their average. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but I've seen it enough to where it has to be something besides coincidence. A part of me feels as though certain players will shy away from 'spectator' events since I've seen several parents actually tally scores for all the players in the group.

> Please discuss.

Are they 36 hole events?

> @leezer99 said:

> My wife will go and walk with groups and keep the group scorecard. They are mostly correct when that happens. Funny enough that you mentioned this because there was a dad walking with my wife at an event this weekend who said, "Your son will end up in a group eventually that speaks another language together and exclude your son. They will also cheat and vouch for each other at the scorers table if your son tries to bring it up." He had two kids in the 12-14 age group this weekend.

>

> All that said, your point is extremely valid.

Is it really that bad with the boy's? I haven't really seen wide spread cheating with boy's, though I have seen it. It was really prevalent with Asian girl's.

My wife will go and walk with groups and keep the group scorecard. They are mostly correct when that happens. Funny enough that you mentioned this because there was a dad walking with my wife at an event this weekend who said, "Your son will end up in a group eventually that speaks another language together and exclude your son. They will also cheat and vouch for each other at the scorers table if your son tries to bring it up." He had two kids in the 12-14 age group this weekend.

All that said, your point is extremely valid.

Cheaters never win in the long run. As soon as they get to bigger tournaments where there will undoubtedly be spectators, they will be outed. We played a JGANC tournament last year where they sent out a dedicated scorekeeper for everyone in the group which I thought was pretty cool considering we were a 7-9YO age bracket.

> @wildcatden said:

> Cheaters never win in the long run. As soon as they get to bigger tournaments where there will undoubtedly be spectators, they will be outed. We played a JGANC tournament last year where they sent out a dedicated scorekeeper for everyone in the group which I thought was pretty cool considering we were a 7-9YO age bracket.

While I agree with you 100% the problem is the opportunities they get because they have "won" events... especially qualifiers for larger events.

> @leezer99 said:

> > @wildcatden said:

> > Cheaters never win in the long run. As soon as they get to bigger tournaments where there will undoubtedly be spectators, they will be outed. We played a JGANC tournament last year where they sent out a dedicated scorekeeper for everyone in the group which I thought was pretty cool considering we were a 7-9YO age bracket.

>

> While I agree with you 100% the problem is the opportunities they get because they have "won" events... especially qualifiers for larger events.

> > @kekoa said:

> > I'm really only referring to SCPGA junior tournaments (9-11 yr division) since I have experience in these. Essentially, they run numerous tournaments throughout the year and some courses allow spectators and others don't. One thing I have started to notice is that the 'non spectator' events are normally larger and the winner shoots a score that is noticeably lower than their average. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but I've seen it enough to where it has to be something besides coincidence. A part of me feels as though certain players will shy away from 'spectator' events since I've seen several parents actually tally scores for all the players in the group.

> > Please discuss.

>

> Are they 36 hole events?

>

> > @leezer99 said:

> > My wife will go and walk with groups and keep the group scorecard. They are mostly correct when that happens. Funny enough that you mentioned this because there was a dad walking with my wife at an event this weekend who said, "Your son will end up in a group eventually that speaks another language together and exclude your son. They will also cheat and vouch for each other at the scorers table if your son tries to bring it up." He had two kids in the 12-14 age group this weekend.

> >

> > All that said, your point is extremely valid.

>

Cheating gets under my skin. I have seen kids that play with poor players shoot in the 70's, then play with better players and they always shoot mid to high 80's. Better players have the time to worry about opponents scores.

> @leezer99 said:

> > @wildcatden said:

> > Cheaters never win in the long run. As soon as they get to bigger tournaments where there will undoubtedly be spectators, they will be outed. We played a JGANC tournament last year where they sent out a dedicated scorekeeper for everyone in the group which I thought was pretty cool considering we were a 7-9YO age bracket.

>

> While I agree with you 100% the problem is the opportunities they get because they have "won" events... especially qualifiers for larger events.

Yeah, opportunity being stolen from others. Since my kid is not at that age yet, I don't know what the solution(s) may be. Certainly, the tournament organizers are aware that this stuff happens and has happened forever.

If possible, don't play events without spectators?

Apply pressure to tournaments to have scorekeepers (volunteers) follow each group (ie. you can't scorekeep for your own kid's group)? Certainly, finding enough people is hard. They could offer discounts to those who signup for tournaments but agree to be a volunteer scorekeeper.

> @leezer99 said:

> My wife will go and walk with groups and keep the group scorecard. They are mostly correct when that happens. Funny enough that you mentioned this because there was a dad walking with my wife at an event this weekend who said, "Your son will end up in a group eventually that speaks another language together and exclude your son. They will also cheat and vouch for each other at the scorers table if your son tries to bring it up." He had two kids in the 12-14 age group this weekend.

>

> All that said, your point is extremely valid.

I could totally see this happening in the Junior Development Tour, but I'm finding the Players Tour to be a lot better in almost every way.

With regards to the scoring thing, I've also heard of older and more aggressive kids bullying younger kids into allowing them to take a certain score. This pisses me off to no end.

> @kekoa said:

> I could totally see this happening in the Junior Development Tour, but I'm finding the Players Tour to be a lot better in almost every way.

>

> With regards to the scoring thing, I've also heard of older and more aggressive kids bullying younger kids into allowing them to take a certain score. This pisses me off to no end.

There was a boy in my son's group last month that hit his ball into the parking lot and straight up told the other kid in the group he was going to take a free drop and he hoped the marshal didn't notice. Again... 12-14 year olds. My wife heard all this and called the marshal over who then followed their group for the last six holes or so.

Also, watch the parents that are spectating that go way ahead of the group towards the landing area of shots. Somehow a mom or dad will find their child's errant shot and it will be magically propped up on the only grass within 20 yards even though you saw it go in the water. This is not a hypothetical story I made up to prove a point.

> @leezer99 said:

> > @kekoa said:

>

> > I could totally see this happening in the Junior Development Tour, but I'm finding the Players Tour to be a lot better in almost every way.

> >

> > With regards to the scoring thing, I've also heard of older and more aggressive kids bullying younger kids into allowing them to take a certain score. This pisses me off to no end.

>

>

> Also, watch the parents that are spectating that go way ahead of the group towards the landing area of shots. Somehow a mom or dad will find their child's errant shot and it will be magically propped up on the only grass within 20 yards even though you saw it go in the water. This is not a hypothetical story I made up to prove a point.

>

That is the way everyone should spectate though. I have been thinking of just dropping off and going to the clubhouse to take a nap.

> @leezer99 said:

> > @wildcatden said:

> > Cheaters never win in the long run. As soon as they get to bigger tournaments where there will undoubtedly be spectators, they will be outed. We played a JGANC tournament last year where they sent out a dedicated scorekeeper for everyone in the group which I thought was pretty cool considering we were a 7-9YO age bracket.

>

> While I agree with you 100% the problem is the opportunities they get because they have "won" events... especially qualifiers for larger events.

Yes that is a big issue the thing is those kids do get caught. When kids get better the blatent cheaters are pretty obvious because everyone is watching them. Even the kids learn to spot cheaters when they get older. If you play with the same kids week in and week out and they never have an unlucky bounce or shot it's pretty obvious something is going on.

To me cheating is much bigger problem when kids are under 10 with parents who caddie for them.

> @leezer99 said:

> > @kekoa said:

>

> > I could totally see this happening in the Junior Development Tour, but I'm finding the Players Tour to be a lot better in almost every way.

> >

> > With regards to the scoring thing, I've also heard of older and more aggressive kids bullying younger kids into allowing them to take a certain score. This pisses me off to no end.

>

> There was a boy in my son's group last month that hit his ball into the parking lot and straight up told the other kid in the group he was going to take a free drop and he hoped the marshal didn't notice. Again... 12-14 year olds. My wife heard all this and called the marshal over who then followed their group for the last six holes or so.

>

> Also, watch the parents that are spectating that go way ahead of the group towards the landing area of shots. Somehow a mom or dad will find their child's errant shot and it will be magically propped up on the only grass within 20 yards even though you saw it go in the water. This is not a hypothetical story I made up to prove a point.

>

I believe you I seen the same thing happen. The worst is how the parents will get extra defensive about it it's also hard to prove. You also have to watch for the parent that will look for you kids ball and hit into the water with their foot.

> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @leezer99 said:

> > > @kekoa said:

> >

> > > I could totally see this happening in the Junior Development Tour, but I'm finding the Players Tour to be a lot better in almost every way.

> > >

> > > With regards to the scoring thing, I've also heard of older and more aggressive kids bullying younger kids into allowing them to take a certain score. This pisses me off to no end.

> >

>

> >

> > Also, watch the parents that are spectating that go way ahead of the group towards the landing area of shots. Somehow a mom or dad will find their child's errant shot and it will be magically propped up on the only grass within 20 yards even though you saw it go in the water. This is not a hypothetical story I made up to prove a point.

> >

>

> That is the way everyone should spectate though. I have been thinking of just dropping off and going to the clubhouse to take a nap.

For the most part yes you are correct. The one you need to watch out for is the ones that HAVE TO LOOK FOR EVER SHOT BEFORE THE KIDS GET THERE. Parents should stay on the cart path and if a ball is lost help look after the kids can't find it but even then you should never go near the ball if you can help it.

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > @kekoa said:

> > >

> > > > I could totally see this happening in the Junior Development Tour, but I'm finding the Players Tour to be a lot better in almost every way.

> > > >

> > > > With regards to the scoring thing, I've also heard of older and more aggressive kids bullying younger kids into allowing them to take a certain score. This pisses me off to no end.

> > >

> >

> > >

> > > Also, watch the parents that are spectating that go way ahead of the group towards the landing area of shots. Somehow a mom or dad will find their child's errant shot and it will be magically propped up on the only grass within 20 yards even though you saw it go in the water. This is not a hypothetical story I made up to prove a point.

> > >

> >

> > That is the way everyone should spectate though. I have been thinking of just dropping off and going to the clubhouse to take a nap.

>

> For the most part yes you are correct. The one you need to watch out for is the ones that HAVE TO LOOK FOR EVER SHOT BEFORE THE KIDS GET THERE. Parents should stay on the cart path and if a ball is lost help look after the kids can't find it but even then you should never go near the ball if you can help it.

I completely understand what you’re saying—and you’re probably right. I watch from ahead of play solely so I CAN help find wayward shots (of my kid and the others). It’s just a shame that’s small percentage of cheating parents could cause me to be questioned for trying to help

At our local tour, there are players and parents who have a history and a reputation. Other caddy parents will inform each other who to watch out for and what not.

My son’s 11, and he’s started playing by himself without any caddy assistance. I'm pretty much a spectator, just pushing the cart. He writes down the score, and I keep score separately. When I did caddy, I always verified with the other player of the score after holing out each hole.

Checked the score once at the turn, and go over the score again before the table. Been burned once at a Regional, never again.

> @mrshinsa said:

> At our local tour, there are players and parents who have a history and a reputation. Other caddy parents will inform each other who to watch out for and what not.

> My son’s 11, and he’s started playing by himself without any caddy assistance. I'm pretty much a spectator, just pushing the cart. He writes down the score, and I keep score separately. When I did caddy, I always verified with the other player of the score after holing out each hole.

> Checked the score once at the turn, and go over the score again before the table. Been burned once at a Regional, never again.

>

Much harder to cheat at uskids events. I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

When the kids are out on the course by themselves with parents waiting at the clubhouse cheating is much more widespread.

I think it was the Anaheim Hills tournament where my son was disputing a couple of holes at the scorer's table. The older, bigger player was trying to say he had a lower score on a couple of holes but my son gave in because he didn't care and chose to sulk in his own bad play. He heard an earful from me in the car ride home. Had the nerve to try to justify it by saying the player wasn't going to place.

Nothing bothers me more than cheating. I’ve caught a couple parents do it one time and forever will think they are cheating. Even worse than a kid trying to cheat is a parent caddy cheating. Reputation gets out. It’s funny that often time once these same kids get grouped with the better players their scores go up significantly. Do these parents even understand that if their kids get caught cheating at older ages it affects them greatly? Regardless if it affects us or not, you have to protect the field.

Why don’t they just have volunteer scorers? In our pga section, parents volunteer to be scorers in the 7-11 age group. You can’t score your own child’s group. Problem solved.

My wife just told me another story about the tournament this weekend... one of the kids that my son was playing with had a brother in a group two behind them. The dad went back to watch the other son and saw a guy giving advice to one of the kids in the group so he approached him and said that he can't help the kids. The guy replies that he's the kids coach and he's a PGA pro! Dad called a marshal who followed them for a bit but as soon as the marshal left he started giving advice to the kid again about everything from where to drop to club selection. I swear this is getting out of hand.

> @yellowlover519 said:

> Nothing bothers me more than cheating. I’ve caught a couple parents do it one time and forever will think they are cheating. Even worse than a kid trying to cheat is a parent caddy cheating. Reputation gets out. It’s funny that often time once these same kids get grouped with the better players their scores go up significantly. Do these parents even understand that if their kids get caught cheating at older ages it affects them greatly? Regardless if it affects us or not, you have to protect the field.

We ran into that once where a dad pulled a big chunk of grass from in front of the kids ball out of the ground so he would have a clear shot. I called him on it and he said it was just dead grass but he had pulled up roots and about a pound of dirt. On another hole he tried to get his son free relief from water that he wasn't anywhere close to standing in because his kid's ball had a big glob of mud on it. The most unfortunate part is that the kid is REALLY good but his dad lost the tournament for him.

> @kekoa said:

> > @mrshinsa said:

> > At our local tour, there are players and parents who have a history and a reputation. Other caddy parents will inform each other who to watch out for and what not.

> > My son’s 11, and he’s started playing by himself without any caddy assistance. I'm pretty much a spectator, just pushing the cart. He writes down the score, and I keep score separately. When I did caddy, I always verified with the other player of the score after holing out each hole.

> > Checked the score once at the turn, and go over the score again before the table. Been burned once at a Regional, never again.

> >

>

> Much harder to cheat at uskids events. I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

> When the kids are out on the course by themselves with parents waiting at the clubhouse cheating is much more widespread.

From what I seen US Kids locals are the most common tournament that have issues. It really depends on who is running the tournament though. A lot junior tournaments are run by interns or recent college grads. I seen some who are excellent and are vigilant. I seen others who just don’t care and it seems like a free for all where all kinds of stuff goes on.

Also kids usually are brutal on other kids who cheat. I would think if scores are lower without spectators it has more to do with kids probably having issues with counting the correct number of strokes. Which can go both ways.

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @kekoa said:

> > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > At our local tour, there are players and parents who have a history and a reputation. Other caddy parents will inform each other who to watch out for and what not.

> > > My son’s 11, and he’s started playing by himself without any caddy assistance. I'm pretty much a spectator, just pushing the cart. He writes down the score, and I keep score separately. When I did caddy, I always verified with the other player of the score after holing out each hole.

> > > Checked the score once at the turn, and go over the score again before the table. Been burned once at a Regional, never again.

> > >

> >

> > Much harder to cheat at uskids events. I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

> > When the kids are out on the course by themselves with parents waiting at the clubhouse cheating is much more widespread.

>

> From what I seen US Kids locals are the most common tournament that have issues. It really depends on who is running the tournament though. A lot junior tournaments are run by interns or recent college grads. I seen some who are excellent and are vigilant. I seen others who just don’t care and it seems like a free for all where all kinds of stuff goes on.

>

> Also kids usually are brutal on other kids who cheat. I would think if scores are lower without spectators it has more to do with kids probably having issues with counting the correct number of strokes. Which can go both ways.

>

>

I would think the cheating would be worse with parents around.

What I have seen with boy's is that they are really brutal on those that are caught cheating. Have been through the experience with my boy and one of his really good friend's. The boy's were really hard on this kid.

Girl's for the most part let it ride from my experience. They don't say much.

> @leezer99 said:

> My wife just told me another story about the tournament this weekend... one of the kids that my son was playing with had a brother in a group two behind them. The dad went back to watch the other son and saw a guy giving advice to one of the kids in the group so he approached him and said that he can't help the kids. The guy replies that he's the kids coach and he's a PGA pro! Dad called a marshal who followed them for a bit but as soon as the marshal left he started giving advice to the kid again about everything from where to drop to club selection. I swear this is getting out of hand.

If the SCPGA wants this to stop all they have to do is assess a 2 stoke penalty on the kid for each offense or DQ him. If they keep giving soft warnings the advice giving will continue.

I assume these are 1 day (9 hole?) tournaments. Nothing really at stake in these Junior PGA Section tourneys?

> @CTgolf said:

> I assume these are 1 day (9 hole?) tournaments. Nothing really at stake in these Junior PGA Section tourneys?

Yes, but that's not the point.

> @CTgolf said:

> I assume these are 1 day (9 hole?) tournaments. Nothing really at stake in these Junior PGA Section tourneys?

I disagree there is plenty at stake even for the young kids. These tournaments are where kids first get into golf. If your kid keeps losing to cheaters how do you actually know they are good. I also found the parents of ones who cheat like to run off other kids or discourage them. Which is why I hate them so much. In some cases parents just don't enter their kids if they think they have no chance. (which is true if Kids are cheating)

What is worst is those kids who are cheating with their parents get recognition and move on to higher tournaments while the honest kid thinks they need to get better when in reality they should be the ones moving up. This why doing tournaments without a caddie is a priority or should be for all kids. Most of the bs stops when the kids have to deal with other kids.

> @kekoa said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > I assume these are 1 day (9 hole?) tournaments. Nothing really at stake in these Junior PGA Section tourneys?

>

> Yes, but that's not the point.

>

>

Cheaters only hurt themselves, and doing the right thing shouldn't be applauded, but expected. I would tell my kid to try to protect the field, but not to get too bent out of shape about it.

In the end, it's a pretty small competitive junior golf community, and everyone knows who the best players are.

Which is why there aren't any "USC Crew" type situations in college golf.

> @kekoa said:

> If the SCPGA wants this to stop all they have to do is assess a 2 stoke penalty on the kid for each offense or DQ him. If they keep giving soft warnings the advice giving will continue.

I told my son last night to assess the penalty if he has that kids scorecard and let them sort it out at the scoring table. Interestingly, receiving unsolicited advice is not a penalty in of itself but letting it continue would constitute a penalty. The rule is very vague but if it's not addressed like you said then they will never do anything about it.

> @tiger1873 said:

> ...This why doing tournaments without a caddie is a priority or should be for all kids. Most of the bs stops when the kids have to deal with other kids.

I don't find this to be the case. A kid is taught to cheat at an early age by the parent and rarely gives it up once they are older. Couple that with the pressure the parents put on their kids and it only gets worse. I've never known a kid that magically becomes an angel when mom and dad aren't around.