Jump to content

Check list to decide if LCP is needed


Recommended Posts

Hi All,

Has anyone developed a check list to decide if Lift Clean and Place needs implemented?

 

Our course tends to overuse LCP for reasons not I tend to not find appropriate, so I would like to formalize the decision making process a bit more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no formal list, but let me start you off by saying that a local rule like LCP should not be implemented after play has begun, particularly in stroke play, so the wise Committee will implement this LR based on the prediction that it will become necessary later in the day even when conditions do not yet warrant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the mowers cant get out and its cart path only are the main ones. I dont know when our course will ever get off LCP this year as they cant hardly get the mowers that are working out and it keeps raining. Our rough is worse than what the pro's will be facing at at the PGA and US Open combined.

SIM 2 Max 9.0 turned 7.0
TM Sim2 Titaniu, 13.5
TM RBZ 19* hybrid

TM RBZ 22* hybrid
Mizuno JPX 900 HM 5-PW
Vokey SM7 48* F Grind
Vokey SM7 54* F Grind
Vokey SM7 58* M Grind

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> If the mowers cant get out and its cart path only are the main ones. I dont know when our course will ever get off LCP this year as they cant hardly get the mowers that are working out and it keeps raining. Our rough is worse than what the pro's will be facing at at the PGA and US Open combined.

 

Interesting you say this as the governing bodies specifically suggest preferred lies should not be used in the rough. I can see at time why it should be, but often courses seem to put in place only because the rough is tough to hit out of not for truly legitimate reasons like the mowers can't cut the rough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @2bGood said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > If the mowers cant get out and its cart path only are the main ones. I dont know when our course will ever get off LCP this year as they cant hardly get the mowers that are working out and it keeps raining. Our rough is worse than what the pro's will be facing at at the PGA and US Open combined.

>

> Interesting you say this as the governing bodies specifically suggest preferred lies should not be used in the rough. I can see at time why it should be, but often courses seem to put in place only because the rough is tough to hit out of not for truly legitimate reasons like the mowers can't cut the rough.

 

I bet he did not mean LCP in rough, but about the conditions being such that even the rough has grown heavily.

  • Like 1

Ping G15 Titleist 950R Titleist 910D2 Titleist TS2
Titleist 910f 3W
Callaway XHot hybrid
Titleist 735cm Titleist AP2
Vokey wedges
Tri-Ball SRT Odyssey Works Versa #1 Tank Scotty Cameron Futura 5W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's one Temporary Local Rule that seems to work:

 

**_TLR 1 - Until further notice, play the ball “down” except on those holes where, due to wet conditions, "Cart Path Only" restrictions are mandated.

 

On holes where “Cart Path Only” is in effect, players may play "lift, clean and place within one club-length, not nearer the hole” in those parts of the general area cut to fairway height or less._**

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My club isn't often CPO but of if I hit 14 fairways I'd normally have 14 mud balls to some extent. Ball doesn't usually plug, but goes into the turf about 1.5 inches the will pop back out, and end up 6-8 inches behind the ball mark. I pick up and clean my ball nearly every hole. Not going to be punished for hitting fairways with mud balls, and the resulting handicap if I were to play it down would not be an accurate representation of my skill level. If it's obvious I dont need to clean the ball I wont, but that's unusual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the Rules concerning Preferred Lies:

 

When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

 

When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for "preferred lies" (also known as "winter rules") to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.

Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
Woods: ST 180 or MP-650 - Irons: MP-H5 / MP-53 / MP-4, KBS Tour S - 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: RTX ZipCore - Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @Halebopp said:

> From the Rules concerning Preferred Lies:

>

> When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

>

> When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for "preferred lies" (also known as "winter rules") to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. **Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.**

 

I guess 2beGood is looking for some guidance on the bolded.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

 

In this case they mean protecting the fairway from machinery damage rather than players but your point is well made. Which is why fairway mats are becoming more prevalent in the UK.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @Newby said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

>

> In this case they mean protecting the fairway from machinery damage rather than players but your point is well made. Which is why fairway mats are becoming more prevalent in the UK.

 

It is not quite clear to me how a LCP could protect the fairways from machinery damage. Can you shed some light there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

> >

> > In this case they mean protecting the fairway from machinery damage rather than players but your point is well made. Which is why fairway mats are becoming more prevalent in the UK.

>

> It is not quite clear to me how a LCP could protect the fairways from machinery damage. Can you shed some light there?

 

If it's so wet that machinery would leave tracks, or bog into really wet areas. Courses would avoid putting out the mowers, LCP would allow for relatively normal play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

 

I've understood taking divots from bald patches is really bad for the grass and the damaged area will really struggle to recover whereas an already healthy patch will recover quite quickly.

 

Bean, sure but in case 2bgood hasn't seen any guidance at all, even that bit might be useful. The "How to conduct a competition" manual by the USGA says LCP could be used when "fairway is unsatisfactory".

Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
Woods: ST 180 or MP-650 - Irons: MP-H5 / MP-53 / MP-4, KBS Tour S - 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: RTX ZipCore - Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I certainly know that our Head Greenkeeper would much prefer that sand/soil/seed divot mix would be better added to a bare patch that has been hacked by a club than hoping that a pristine bit of turf will regrow when (hopefully) replaced after being torn out by a golf shot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @Halebopp said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

>

> I've understood taking divots from bald patches is really bad for the grass and the damaged area will really struggle to recover whereas an already healthy patch will recover quite quickly.

>

> Bean, sure but in case 2bgood hasn't seen any guidance at all, even that bit might be useful. The "How to conduct a competition" manual by the USGA says LCP could be used when "fairway is unsatisfactory".

 

That's dependent on the grass type is.

 

If you're having mudballs in the fairway on most or every hole, time for LCR/P. Random mudballs, that's golf.

SIM 2 Max 9.0 turned 7.0
TM Sim2 Titaniu, 13.5
TM RBZ 19* hybrid

TM RBZ 22* hybrid
Mizuno JPX 900 HM 5-PW
Vokey SM7 48* F Grind
Vokey SM7 54* F Grind
Vokey SM7 58* M Grind

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP, guess you are looking for some type of checklist, not sure that is doable. I would identify a number (2-3) of low lying areas of the course where a LCP/LCR rule would likely need to be in place in adverse conditions. If those areas are then deemed suitable for play, no rule in place. At least the membership would be aware of the determination rather than just a "finger in the air" approach.

Reading between the lines, it appears you are tiring of "ball in hand". We use a mud ball rule, LCR through the general area, whilst its open to some abuse, less so than others.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting chat so far. As some have guessed I tend to think 'preferred lies' stays in place way too long after the end of winter at our course. It stays in place not due to weather, or course damage or 'unfair' playing conditions, but rather because in spring the grass tends to be so healthy that the rough is very juicy and lush, and even when cut short is a challenge for players the lack decent power to hit out of. We literally play preferred lies because our course is too healthy. Bonkers.

 

Anyhow I was hoping to develop a check list to determine if preferred lies is needed. Something like:

-Are mowers unable to access all parts of course?

-Are there substantial areas of fairway that are damaged?

- Is snow or ice still on the course?

- Are fairways sufficiently water logged to regularly cause balls to accumulate mud?

-others?

 

And if the answer is not to all the above (an other I have missed) then it is clear preferred lies should not be in place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @2bGood said:

> Interesting chat so far. As some have guessed I tend to think 'preferred lies' stays in place way too long after the end of winter at our course. It stays in place not due to weather, or course damage or 'unfair' playing conditions, but rather because in spring the grass tends to be so healthy that the rough is very juicy and lush, and even when cut short is a challenge for players the lack decent power to hit out of. We literally play preferred lies because our course is too healthy. Bonkers.

>

> Anyhow I was hoping to develop a check list to determine if preferred lies is needed. Something like:

> -Are mowers unable to access all parts of course?

> -Are there substantial areas of fairway that are damaged?

> - Is snow or ice still on the course?

> - Are fairways sufficiently water logged to regularly cause balls to accumulate mud?

> -others?

>

> And if the answer is **not to all the above** (an other I have missed) then it is clear preferred lies should not be in place.

 

'Not to ALL the above' ? Really??

 

IMO LCP is there to reduce the factor of luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @2bGood said:

> > Interesting chat so far. As some have guessed I tend to think 'preferred lies' stays in place way too long after the end of winter at our course. It stays in place not due to weather, or course damage or 'unfair' playing conditions, but rather because in spring the grass tends to be so healthy that the rough is very juicy and lush, and even when cut short is a challenge for players the lack decent power to hit out of. We literally play preferred lies because our course is too healthy. Bonkers.

> >

> > Anyhow I was hoping to develop a check list to determine if preferred lies is needed. Something like:

> > -Are mowers unable to access all parts of course?

> > -Are there substantial areas of fairway that are damaged?

> > - Is snow or ice still on the course?

> > - Are fairways sufficiently water logged to regularly cause balls to accumulate mud?

> > -others?

> >

> > And if the answer is **not to all the above** (an other I have missed) then it is clear preferred lies should not be in place.

>

> 'Not to ALL the above' ? Really??

>

> IMO LCP is there to reduce the factor of luck.

 

Is your opinion consistent with that of the ruling bodies:

**E-3 Preferred Lies**

**Purpose.** When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for “preferred lies” (also known as “winter rules”) to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.

The use of this Local Rule outside the fairway in the general area is not recommended as it may result in a player receiving free relief from areas where a ball might otherwise be unplayable (such as in areas of bushes or trees).

It is not authorised to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who have more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.

For guidance on when and how this Local Rule may be used in order for scores to be submitted for handicapping purposes (including the size of the relief area and if it may only be used in the fairway), consult the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @2bGood said:

> Hi All,

> Has anyone developed a check list to decide if Lift Clean and Place needs implemented?

>

> Our course tends to overuse LCP for reasons not I tend to not find appropriate, so I would like to formalize the decision making process a bit more.

 

Our rule is quite simple; if the course says it's so wet that they implement cart path only, we use LCP. Otherwise, no LCP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of my tournament leagues employs this rule. If the round starts with carts off the path, you play the ball down the entire round letting USGA Rules of Golf dictate any relief you may get from casual water or abnormal course conditions. If the round starts and it is CPO, then the entire round is play as LCP, actually it is LCR (Lift Clean and Replace). It is totally a factor of how the round starts. Makes no difference if CPO changes during the round. However round starts, that is how it finishes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Discussion and links to Photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ben Silverman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jesse Droemer - SoTX PGA Section POY - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      David Lipsky - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Martin Trainer - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Zac Blair - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jacob Bridgeman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Trace Crowe - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB(very mini) - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Chesson Hadley - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Callum McNeill - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Rhein Gibson - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Patrick Fishburn - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Peter Malnati - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 7 replies
    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

×
×
  • Create New...