Playing persimmon and classic blades, day in, day out.

I play 1992 Hogan Apex woods along with Hogan Apex redline irons made in 1988. I find these clubs to be much more accurate, workable with a feel quality otherwise unavailable with modern equipment. Using such equipment does require careful selection of the golf ball as “tour” balls like pro v’s are way too hard. I’ve settled on Wilson duo soft spins, which to me, with my equipment, remind me of Titleist tour balata 90 compression balls that went extinct in the late 1990’s. I’m in my sixties, play one set of tee boxes up from the tips and carry a 4 handicap. I may loose a few yards off the tee but feel and accuracy are way more important to me. Driver distance is around 235, I hit around 70% of fairways and about the same in greens in regulation. I miss way too many puts from 4 feet in and if I could short put better, I believe I’d be a scratch golfer. I don’t believe I could do this using today’s clubs.

Are ther others out there like me?

The exact makeup of my bag is as follows:

Driver - Hogan Apex 9* with #4 Apex GG graphite shaft (1992)

3 wood - Hogan Apex with same shaft as above

Irons - Hogan Apex redlines (1988) 2 though E (pitching wedge)

Wedges - 5610 “S” fairway, 5612 berrillium sand, both Hogan from 1988.

Putter- Bettinardi Bb18 (1999)

I haven’t hit a modern wood in nearly a year. Whether I play my modern KZG’s or my 1958 Wilson’s, I always have a set of persimmons in the bag. Like you, it’s been a bit of a trial and error to find the best ball, but I really like the Pro V1x but also have been using the Wilson Zip on the opposite end of the spectrum, both with great results.

Lately I have been playing strictly all vintage. I’ve been hitting my 58 Wilson Dyna-Powereds really well so reached for the KZG’s for some time. Right now the bag is an early 80’s Macgregor M09 driver, 1957 Macgregor M85 3&4 woods, early 80’s Cleveland TC15 5-wood, 1958 Wilson Dyna-Powered irons 3-PW, a Wilson 3-D Triple Duty wedge, and an old bronze Ping Anser. I also just move up a tee box when needed and have hit way more fairways than I ever did with my modern driver. It’s been a much more enjoyable way to play the game for me.

I started playing hogan redlines when they were released back in ‘88 and have gone through (worn out) 4 sets of them. This spring I found yet another new, never hit set on eBay and now have a brand new set of 1988 irons in the bag. I started buying the hogan woods about the time hogan stopped making them, around 1998, I think, so I am able to always have brand new clubs in the bag even though they are from a time removed. I’ve tried a few rounds with various “new” stuff every now and then but never have found anything with the feel or deadly accuracy of my hogan bag’o’clubs.

I recall my first new hi-tech driver, a Titleist 976R, that I bought in 1999; but didn’t get the advertised extra yardage and hated the “ting” sound at impact. Couldn’t work the ball either. Played a few rounds with Nike clubs, Titleist, Taylormades, etc. always hoping to find something even better than my redlines but was always left wanting.

Am I crazy or does all this new technology have more to do with marketing and profit motives than making an actual forward step in ball striking?

Have handicaps improved through the years?

Honestly, other than modern blade designs being easier to hit than blades from the 40s, I don't see any reason why modern blade style irons wouldn't work better for you. I use the OG Nike blades, and they're, imo, phenomenal.

Could I assume you have never hit a set of hogan redlines?

Modern gear does make things a _little_ easier imho. The difference is subtle, but I would certainly say advancements in the last 15 years have been nil for me.

For my game (good ball striker but low trajectory) the biggest difference to VINTAGE is distance and forgiveness in the driver and getting the ball to fly higher with 3W and hybrids/long irons.

For me, blades (post 1980, I haven’t played previous) versus modern irons make no difference to scoring, although I almost only play links golf where a lower flight is an advantage.

In terms of enjoyment though, it’s no contest. Persimmons and blades win hands down.

I am a new convert (back) to vintage gear. I can see myself continuing to use my modern bag for competitive golf and increasingly the vintage bag for social games and holiday golf.__

The modern game is 90% about distance, and it's all a lot of club golfers talk about and want.

Metalwoods do make a huge distance difference compared to persimmon and they're much easier to hit straight.

With irons some gains have been made with hot face and similar technology but most distance "increases" have come about through jacked lofts.

I've played nothing but vintage clubs since the start of last year. For me much of the enjoyment of playing vintage comes from using a completely different set each week and appreciating the differences between clubs. My handicap is 12, if I could find a decent short game I'd be able to knock 3 or 4 shots off that. But in all honesty I don't worry about my handicap these days.

My club sets are a mixed selection, from hickory through to the 1980s, I have 25 to 30 sets of irons, a similar number of putters and 15 or 20 sets of woods, which allows me really mix things up from week to week.

There are a few decent sets in there but most would be considered junk by classic club collectors; Dunlop, Slazenger, Bronty, Ben Sayers, Forgan, Harold Bird & Son, etc. (a selection shown below). But I like them and get a thrill from playing them.

Any soft ball will do me, and talking of Titleist Tour Balata 90, I picked some up from a friend the other day and used one in a round at Fleetwood GC today, nice.

Find a combo bag of clubs and stick with them, you’ll be a single digit handicapper in no time.

In my opinion the thing that keeps many players from improving their handicap is that they are always changing up their bag. I’ve played my redlines for 31 years now.Jusy MY opinion, mind you.

Fun is fun.

@Bruceapex I have been playing the same irons since 1992 (?) as well. Downgraded/upgraded (whichever way you want to look at it) to classic woods à little over 10 years ago (was still playing the original TM Tour Preferred Burner metalwood back then, so you could call that a classic as well as it predated my irons). Now only play my old metalwood when it is still very cold and wet (January/February/early March, which is once every 5 years for me...) so 99.9% of the time I play with a persimmon driver (50ies or 60ies Mac or 80ies Wood Brothers).

I played modern clubs once in 2006. Scored very well, just didn't enjoy it at all as the clubs themselves gave no feedback whatsoever, so it felt like just aim and hit (at 80% as the shafts were fairly weak compared to my usual shafts) and see the ball end up where i was aiming at, but couldn't tell if i hit a good shot or not. And was unable to manipulate the flight either.

> @Jiggered said:

> The modern game is 90% about distance, and it's all a lot of club golfers talk about and want.

>

> Metalwoods do make a huge distance difference compared to persimmon and they're much easier to hit straight.

>

>

In the nature of a for whatever it's worth comment...

I've not found persimmons more difficult to hit straight. In fact, I've found them to hit straighter than modern sticks. It's a bit puzzling to me, knowing about MOI and all the fun. They're a bit shorter, but not that much so for me.

The not infrequent theory mentioned about WRX, and also not infrequently ridiculed, about driver clubhead sizes could be part of it. I'm not sure I subscribe to that theory, but I admit I wonder a bit.

Main reason I don't just stick with them is that I'm an inveterate tinkerer with nerd tendencies. The theory of the larger clubhead appeals to me, and especially the promised lower spin (yeah, I have spin issues off the tee), but I haven't been able to make it work as I might wish. So, persimmons/laminates get some play.

Repetitious comment: my longest drive of 2016 through the present is with a Ping Zing Blonde laminate green dot driver. But, it's one of a few organic material generated tee shots in my life that have surpassed 300 yards; I've gone past that more times than I can count with Ti, steel, and even aluminum (Goldwin AVDP, man!).

Sorry, I've wandered all over the place. :)

> @Bruceapex said:

> Could I assume you have never hit a set of hogan redlines?

I haven't got the redlines specifically, no, but I've got several different Hogan sets, among with Australian blades, Tommy Armour CF4000S, and some MT Tourney irons, in addition to my Nike blades that I play often. The main difference I find is the sharper leading edge on my older irons, and the different spot for the sweet spot as compared to my Nikes. The Nike blades are far easier to hit and to be consistent, in my experience.

I would love to do that if I were 30-40 years younger.

It is a major deficit to my golf game when I no longer able to swing the long irons and the 3 wood off the deck.

I would consider bagging the persimmon and blades playing length under 6100 yards and that would be fun. Although my body will feel it afterward. The persimmon and blades really send the vibration all the way from the hands to the arms through the shoulders to the spine.

> @NRJyzr said:

>

> In the nature of a for whatever it's worth comment...

>

> I've not found persimmons more difficult to hit straight. In fact, I've found them to hit straighter than modern sticks. It's a bit puzzling to me, knowing about MOI and all the fun. They're a bit shorter, but not that much so for me.

I know here you're coming from NRJyzr, it is easy to spray metal drivers around, but I believe that's because players tend to go after them with everything they've got.

When I hit a persimmon I focus more on quality of strike and so don't swing as hard as I do with a metal.

If I use that same focus when hitting a metal it's very easy to bunt one down the middle, and still get a good distance.

@resnor said: I haven't got the redlines specifically, no, but I've got several different Hogan sets, among with Australian blades, Tommy Armour CF4000S, and some MT Tourney irons, in addition to my Nike blades that I play...

I own, and have played nearly all Hogan Apex irons starting with the 1973 models and can tell you with certainty that the redlines are like no other and in my opinion represent the pinnacle of forged iron design.

> @wkuo3 said:

> I would love to do that if I were 30-40 years younger.

> It is a major deficit to my golf game when I no longer able to swing the long irons and the 3 wood off the deck.

> I would consider bagging the persimmon and blades playing length under 6100 yards and that would be fun. Although my body will feel it afterward. The persimmon and blades really send the vibration all the way from the hands to the arms through the shoulders to the spine.

Same issue for me. I was basically 100% hickory for ten years and last year I tried to start playing my Hogan Medallions / Tommy Armour MacGregor woods as well. Loved the clubs but my body didn't. Maybe I will try again this summer - assuming it ever warms up in Chicago!

> @Bruceapex said:

> @resnor said: I haven't got the redlines specifically, no, but I've got several different Hogan sets, among with Australian blades, Tommy Armour CF4000S, and some MT Tourney irons, in addition to my Nike blades that I play...

>

> I own, and have played nearly all Hogan Apex irons starting with the 1973 models and can tell you with certainty that the redlines are like no other and in my opinion represent the pinnacle of forged iron design.

>

Yeah I have no doubt you are correct. I was only talking about playability. If you can hit the redlines then you could far more easily hit modern blades. Not saying the experience will be the same for you as it is hitting your redlines.

Some time ago, I told the "pro" at DSGs about playing my Haig Ultras from 1969. He replied "Just think how well you'd play with "modern, fitted" clubs."

By the way, I'm 66.

> @Wriggles said:

> Some time ago, I told the "pro" at DSGs about playing my Haig Ultras from 1969. He replied "Just think how well you'd play with "modern, fitted" clubs."

> By the way, I'm 66.

LOL, comparing the sweet spot of a dime to a nickel, my personal experience was when switched from a classic bladelike Wilson or Hogan to let's say Ping Eye 2, I end to get sloppy, ended up not getting a whole lot of "improvement" from the supposedly more forgiving design.

The only issue I have with the classic blade design is, I'm not getting the distance I used get out of them classic loft even if I hit it on the screw.

Kids won't understand when the game needs extra attention from a classic design golf club, some of us will "rise" to the occasion and hit a better golf shot. Only if the newer equipment can buy me a better game, I'd be all over it. An easier game, perhaps, not a better game.

Well I had been experimenting around some with some KZG CBs. Now they are forged and players CBs. Well I had to play in a scramble the weekend before last. I had been so busy I had not played or hit balls in a month. I decided to pull out the old VIPs with the Apex shafts. My reasoning was that I had the feel to hit them good when I could not hit anything else. Did fine with them. Played them last Saturday and had a decent ball striking day. My wife told me yeah you experiment around and you always end up with some kind of Macgregor blades in the bag. Also had my old dependable rusty 588s in the bag too. Now on the persimmon end I do not play those as much because I hit the metal woods further and straighter. Now if I am seriously practicing I will throw one of my persimmon drivers in the bag. For me I am a instinct and feel player and my old blades give me that. I could care less if someone else hits their 8 iron where I hit my 7 or 6. I guess it is reality---- I am a blade man born and a blade man bred and when I die I will be a blade man dead

> @wkuo3 said:

> > @Wriggles said:

> > Some time ago, I told the "pro" at DSGs about playing my Haig Ultras from 1969. He replied "Just think how well you'd play with "modern, fitted" clubs."

> > By the way, I'm 66.

>

> LOL, comparing the sweet spot of a dime to a nickel, my personal experience was when switched from a classic bladelike Wilson or Hogan to let's say Ping Eye 2, I end to get sloppy, ended up not getting a whole lot of "improvement" from the supposedly more forgiving design.

> The only issue I have with the classic blade design is, I'm not getting the distance I used get out of them classic loft even if I hit it on the ****.

> Kids won't understand when the game needs extra attention from a classic design golf club, some of us will "rise" to the occasion and hit a better golf shot. Only if the newer equipment can buy me a better game, I'd be all over it. An easier game, perhaps, not a better game.

Yep when I was under contract and playing CBs and GIs my ball striking got sloppy. I never considered myself a ball striker per say. For some reason I guess it is instinct I hit those old tiny blades pretty decent.

I play Apex ‘99’s or Edge Pros all the time as my clubs, sure not classic yet but soon to be. Modern woods yes, but wedges from the 70’s and gooseneck putters from 50’s/60’s. A real mixed bag. When I have more persimmons I’ll rotate them in.

> @"BIG STU" said:

Now on the persimmon end I do not play those as much because I hit the metal woods further and straighter. Now if I am seriously practicing I will throw one of my persimmon drivers in the bag.

The main reason I don't take my persimmons out as often as I do are two folds.

One, they are hard to be replaced, they're some old persimmons floating around but, to find the exact replacement will be difficult.

Two, every season ends had to do maintenance work on them to preserve them. That's the main reason why my father drifted away from the golf clubs made with the persimon and hard wood.

Of course the persimmon driver will yield shorted distance but , I sort of enjoy the 210-230 drive shorter by at least 20 yards than the 460 cc titanium drivers with adjustable hosel.....

It reminded me of the time with my father.

> @wkuo3 said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> Now on the persimmon end I do not play those as much because I hit the metal woods further and straighter. Now if I am seriously practicing I will throw one of my persimmon drivers in the bag.

>

> The main reason I don't take my persimmons out as often as I do are two folds.

> One, they are hard to be replaced, they're some old persimmons floating around but, to find the exact replacement will be difficult.

> Two, every season ends had to do maintenance work on them to preserve them. That's the main reason why my father drifted away from the golf clubs made with the persimon and hard wood.

>

> Of course the persimmon driver will yield shorted distance but , I sort of enjoy the 210-230 drive shorter by at least 20 yards than the 460 cc titanium drivers with adjustable hosel.....

>

> It reminded me of the time with my father.

>

>

I assume you are a righty---- If you ever need any more persimmon drivers I have plenty and am willing to share for free---- The main thing for me in saving them is keeping them from being destroyed by the shredder--- All of mine are basically gamers except the one blonde Penna which has never struck a ball----- Me I lose more than 20 yards with persimmon versus metal more like 40 yards

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> I play Apex ‘99’s or Edge Pros all the time as my clubs, sure not classic yet but soon to be. Modern woods yes, but wedges from the 70’s and gooseneck putters from 50’s/60’s. A real mixed bag. When I have more persimmons I’ll rotate them in.

99 Apex were instant classics the day they were made IMHO----- Yep I went back to my Mac blades with the Apex shafts even my 588s and started back putting with an old TP Mills Spalding #3 blade

> @Wriggles said:

> Some time ago, I told the "pro" at DSGs about playing my Haig Ultras from 1969. He replied "Just think how well you'd play with "modern, fitted" clubs."

> By the way, I'm 66.

LOL I get that all the time----- One time I joined up with some guys on the 5th hole. I was playing my 1941 3800 Mac Armours. Those have the green pyratone shafts. The guys I was playing with had all the newest and greatest ( shrug) I was even hitting persimmon that day. Shot even par from the forward tees the rest of that 9. At the turn one of the guys asked what I was playing? I told him and he remarked man you could really play if you had some clubs like these holding up the latest and greatest TM iron. I told him naah besides I have a set of 1 year old ( at the time) Callaway 2013 X forged and a new 915 D-2 driver

> @Jiggered said:

> > @NRJyzr said:

>

> >

> > In the nature of a for whatever it's worth comment...

> >

> > I've not found persimmons more difficult to hit straight. In fact, I've found them to hit straighter than modern sticks. It's a bit puzzling to me, knowing about MOI and all the fun. They're a bit shorter, but not that much so for me.

>

> I know here you're coming from NRJyzr, it is easy to spray metal drivers around, but I believe that's because players tend to go after them with everything they've got.

> When I hit a persimmon I focus more on quality of strike and so don't swing as hard as I do with a metal.

> If I use that same focus when hitting a metal it's very easy to bunt one down the middle, and still get a good distance.

>

>

My guess is shaft length plays into it too. The off-the-rack shaft length of a modern driver is difficult for me to handle, as I imagine it is for others. My hickory or a persimmon seems much more manageable.

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > Now on the persimmon end I do not play those as much because I hit the metal woods further and straighter. Now if I am seriously practicing I will throw one of my persimmon drivers in the bag.

> >

> > The main reason I don't take my persimmons out as often as I do are two folds.

> > One, they are hard to be replaced, they're some old persimmons floating around but, to find the exact replacement will be difficult.

> > Two, every season ends had to do maintenance work on them to preserve them. That's the main reason why my father drifted away from the golf clubs made with the persimon and hard wood.

> >

> > Of course the persimmon driver will yield shorted distance but , I sort of enjoy the 210-230 drive shorter by at least 20 yards than the 460 cc titanium drivers with adjustable hosel.....

> >

> > It reminded me of the time with my father.

> >

> >

>

> I assume you are a righty---- If you ever need any more persimmon drivers I have plenty and am willing to share for free---- The main thing for me in saving them is keeping them from being destroyed by the shredder--- All of mine are basically gamers except the one blonde Penna which has never struck a ball----- Me I lose more than 20 yards with persimmon versus metal more like 40 yards

Big STU, you're generous and kind. Only if I live a little closer.

I used to refinish my own persimmon woods ( not the take apart complete restoration, just carefully refinish the surface for preservation).

I will lose more driver distance with the persimmon if comparing to my gamer , maybe close to 30 yards. Back then, If I nut one drive will be just about 250 yards. the average was more like 220-230. But , playing from a forward tee with the old school golf clubs have a different level of enjoyment. This will only be realized by golfers whom had played in the pre-1980 era. Kids today will never know the joy of play that type of golf game.

Anyway, I'm glad we know someone like you whom preserved the old traditional golf clubs. Enjoy your days off to be on the golf course. I'm on schedule to get back on the driving range in about a month=month and a half and hopefully will be able to start walking the golf course before the Summer ends. If not, I'll try to work on some oldies and watch my friends on the driving range as a second pair of eyes for them.

Hey folks...

A friend has a bag of left-handed (!) Haig Ultras in reasonable condition and assorted persimmon goodies that her late father played. He was apparently a pretty good stick.

I’m not left handed, so are those left-handed Ultras worth putting up for sale? What do you think?

I have two nice persimmon drivers but someone picked my fairway woods out of my bag when I left it at the bag drop. Do you have any decent fairway woods, STU?

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> I play Apex ‘99’s or Edge Pros all the time as my clubs, sure not classic yet but soon to be. Modern woods yes, but wedges from the 70’s and gooseneck putters from 50’s/60’s. A real mixed bag. When I have more persimmons I’ll rotate them in.

I also play '99 Apex blades but with Nippon Modus Tour 120 stiff shafts. I game a TM M3 9.5 (actual 9.9) degree driver. I game a Titleist 906F 3 wood. Does that count as "classic"? :D

Every now and again I bring out one of my classic woods (either a MacGregor M43T or MacGregor M85W, both with original shafts). I have a MacGregor 693 and MacGregor LFF (1952-1953) that I am wanting to take to the course. Not sure I will since they were just restored by Dave Wood but if I do, as always, I will drive these with a Titleist Tour balata ball.

> @Soloman1 said:

> Hey folks...

>

> A friend has a bag of left-handed (!) Haig Ultras in reasonable condition and assorted persimmon goodies that her late father played. He was apparently a pretty good stick.

>

> I’m not left handed, so are those left-handed Ultras worth putting up for sale? What do you think?

>

> I have two nice persimmon drivers but someone picked my fairway woods out of my bag when I left it at the bag drop. Do you have any decent fairway woods, STU?

Oh yep what do you want I have Macs , Gintys some Izettes maybe a couple Hogans and Power Bilts. Hey you know where I live just let me know