Handicap questions

So for the past 4-5 years, we've (brothers & nephews) have been using The Grint to log scores, and create handicaps. Make the gambling so much easier.

My nephew, the best golfer out of the group by far, always squawks about it "not being fair". The fact is, we got sick of golfing with him being a part time job for him...ALWAYS making a bunch of money off his uncles.

His biggest complaint is when the handicap gives us higher handicappers strokes on a Par 3. He said "No way" should anyone get a stroke on a Par 3. I've questioned that myself, but we've all agreed to follow the handicap no matter what.

I guess my question is, how does it work, that we'll get strokes on some Par 3's, but on some Par 4's, we are even?

Each hole should have a handicap rating (1 through 18). The idea being that strokes are given starting on the handicap hole that is rated one, then two etc. The first thing you should be doing if you are playing hole by hole (skins or match play) is playing off the lowest handicap.

Ie. if the Nephew = 9 and Uncle Windlaker = 18 then Uncle Windlaker should get 9 total strokes and Nephew should get 0 strokes. This results in the Uncle getting 1 stroke on each Handicap Hole 1 through 9.

What was said above, plus...if someone is a 3 handicap and someone is a 21 handicap, then 18 strokes separate them. Thus, the 21 handicap should get 18 strokes (one for each hole 1 through 18). It is also possible for someone to get two strokes on a hole. If more than 18 strokes separate two players, then theoretically the higher handicap would end up getting two strokes on at least 1 hole.

Most club tournaments, though, account for some of the possible handicap chicanery by only counting 60% of the handicaps or separating by flights only, etc etc.

Also, they have shown that the better the player the more the handicap rating is in their favor. Your nephew may say "not fair" because either he is not as low a handicap as he says or one of you guys is sand bagging.

And why would he complain if he is winning?

> @Windlaker_1 said:

>

> I guess my question is, how does it work, that we'll get strokes on some Par 3's, but on some Par 4's, we are even?

Quite simply, the course raters decided that some par 3’s are tougher to par than are some par 4’s. For example, a 300 yard downhill par 4 tends to be a much easier par than a 210 yard par 3 with a green surrounded by bunkers.

For what it’s worth, in these kinds of matches, the low hdcp. almost always complains about how many strokes he/ she has to give and on what holes they fall.

If everyone’s cap is legit, there should be no complaints. The strokes fall where they will.

Assuming your nephew is a 9, what is his solution when he plays a 36? Has to give 27 shots. There may be TWO shots on some par 3’s he’d have to give depending on hole handicap allocations. What then?

Subtract out the low cap and go play. And tell him to stop whining. Golf’s handicap system is the greatest in the world because players of different skill levels can compete equitably.

It’s actually a pretty common complaint by lower handicaps to say “unfair that I have to give strokes on a par 3”. That is until they’re paired with that individual in either match play or in a tournament and then it’s all good?

Here’s a good test. Change the games up to stableford scoring for the summer. Compare results at the end of the season vs what’s been happening. Our Saturday morning dogfight did and it’s eye opening . You’ll know pretty quickly if the current comps where fair or not.

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> So for the past 4-5 years, we've (brothers & nephews) have been using The Grint to log scores, and create handicaps. Make the gambling so much easier.

>

> My nephew, the best golfer out of the group by far, always squawks about it "not being fair". The fact is, we got sick of golfing with him being a part time job for him...ALWAYS making a bunch of money off his uncles.

>

> His biggest complaint is when the handicap gives us higher handicappers strokes on a Par 3. He said "No way" should anyone get a stroke on a Par 3. I've questioned that myself, but we've all agreed to follow the handicap no matter what.

>

> I guess my question is, how does it work, that we'll get strokes on some Par 3's, but on some Par 4's, we are even?

When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ?

I’m just guessing here that you guys are giving everyone their full handicaps?

If so, while he bitches about giving strokes on the par threes, I bet he doesn’t have anything negative to say about taking his pop(s) on the par five, where it’s likely he accumulates a lot of his winnings.

Like someone said above, wheel off him. Set him to zero and everyone else take the difference. If the handicap disparities are less than 18 odds are there won’t be as many strokes on the par threes.

It really does balance out pretty well, if the low guys end up at a disadvantage on the par threes they usually have it back on the fives.

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> I’m just guessing here that you guys are giving everyone their full handicaps?

> If so, while he **** about giving strokes on the par threes, I bet he doesn’t have anything negative to say about taking his pop(s) on the par five, where it’s likely he accumulates a lot of his winnings.

>

> Like someone said above, wheel off him. Set him to zero and everyone else take the difference. If the handicap disparities are less than 18 odds are there won’t be as many strokes on the par threes.

> It really does balance out pretty well, if the low guys end up at a disadvantage on the par threes they usually have it back on the fives.

What do you mean by “ usually have it back on par 5s”? Do you mean he may make a birdie or that no strokes usually on a par 5? On our course I don’t find that at all. Seems like par 3s and 5s are always stroke holes. The infamous “ net eagle , eagle “ incident that happened to me last year during our match play tournament, was on a par 5 then par 3 5th and 6th holes.

> @LeftDaddy said:

> Most club tournaments, though, account for some of the possible handicap chicanery by only counting 60% of the handicaps

Never heard of that other than a team event. And even then it has nothing to do with "chicanery".

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @LeftDaddy said:

> > Most club tournaments, though, account for some of the possible handicap chicanery by only counting 60% of the handicaps

>

> Never heard of that other than a team event. And even then it has nothing to do with "chicanery".

Our clubs used to do 75 % to try to curb the sandbaggers. It effects higher handicaps more than lower . So will work on baggers. But also catches honest mid and high cappers in the net.

> @golfgirlrobin said:

> > @Windlaker_1 said:

> >

> > I guess my question is, how does it work, that we'll get strokes on some Par 3's, but on some Par 4's, we are even?

>

> Quite simply, the course raters decided that some par 3’s are tougher to par than are some par 4’s. For example, a 300 yard downhill par 4 tends to be a much easier par than a 210 yard par 3 with a green surrounded by bunkers.

>

> For what it’s worth, in these kinds of matches, the low hdcp. almost always complains about how many strokes he/ she has to give and on what holes they fall.

>

>

>

What do you know ?!?!?! Somebody actually answered the question !!!

You go girl !!!


> @bladehunter said:

> > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > So for the past 4-5 years, we've (brothers & nephews) have been using The Grint to log scores, and create handicaps. Make the gambling so much easier.

> >

> > My nephew, the best golfer out of the group by far, always squawks about it "not being fair". The fact is, we got sick of golfing with him being a part time job for him...ALWAYS making a bunch of money off his uncles.

> >

> > His biggest complaint is when the handicap gives us higher handicappers strokes on a Par 3. He said "No way" should anyone get a stroke on a Par 3. I've questioned that myself, but we've all agreed to follow the handicap no matter what.

> >

> > I guess my question is, how does it work, that we'll get strokes on some Par 3's, but on some Par 4's, we are even?

>

> When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ?

Sounds to me like they asked him to find another group to play with. LOL

> @BB28403 said:

> Also, they have shown that the better the player the more the handicap rating is in their favor. Your nephew may say "not fair" because either he is not as low a handicap as he says or one of you guys is sand bagging.

>

> And why would he complain if he is winning?

I played with 3 ~~friends~~ acquaintances some months ago and we made up 2 man teams and played a Nassau.

My team LOST the front 1 down and one of the guys on the other team, that WON the front, wanted to take a shot AWAY from my teammate.

And yes, I do NOT play with that guy anymore,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LOL

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > > So for the past 4-5 years, we've (brothers & nephews) have been using The Grint to log scores, and create handicaps. Make the gambling so much easier.

> > >

> > > My nephew, the best golfer out of the group by far, always squawks about it "not being fair". The fact is, we got sick of golfing with him being a part time job for him...ALWAYS making a bunch of money off his uncles.

> > >

> > > His biggest complaint is when the handicap gives us higher handicappers strokes on a Par 3. He said "No way" should anyone get a stroke on a Par 3. I've questioned that myself, but we've all agreed to follow the handicap no matter what.

> > >

> > > I guess my question is, how does it work, that we'll get strokes on some Par 3's, but on some Par 4's, we are even?

> >

> > When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ?

>

> Sounds to me like they asked him to find another group to play with. LOL

Sounds about right. Nothing like a group of Darwin’s examples pooling their wits to prove the theory wrong.

I will always shake my head in disbelief when someone gets 2 strokes on a Par 3 or a stroke a hole for 18 but understand the handicap purpose and reason why I never complain. But when you're the low man in an event/group, getting only "2" strokes against others getting 12-18 strokes, it doesn't make ya sing praises. I just wish the course is difficult.

A related note: I took up golf for the camaraderie, as it allows me to tackle golf on my own terms yet play with others either better and or not nearly as skilled or dedicated. Thank you, golf.

> @BB28403 said:

> Also, they have shown that the better the player the more the handicap rating is in their favor. Your nephew may say "not fair" because either he is not as low a handicap as he says or one of you guys is sand bagging.

>

> And why would he complain if he is winning?

It's been my experience, it's only in my favor if the course is difficult and or every mid-high cap player that's getting strokes isn't trending downward. I play to a 2-3. I can assure you, it doesn't' feel good when someone gets 2 strokes on a par 3 when 1 should be sufficient. However, if the course/par 3 is rated difficult it's more acceptable.

The other day I played an intimidating 165yd par 3 that required a full carry over a large pond, the pin was 5 paces from left front, a mogul on the left, stream feeding the pond on the right-side and big sloping bunker in the back facing the fast green that slopes towards the front pond. I watched a 14 handi double the hole and the other guy take a triple while I stuck it 8' behind the pin and pared. Reason I like difficult.

One of a series of Myths & Misconceptions published by CONGU some years ago when the difference in CONGU was changed from 75% to 100%

**Myth …..**

_“It is unfair in singles match play to require the lower handicap player to concede full handicap difference to his opponent. Three-quarters of the difference is more equitable.”_

• Numerous researchers and golfing bodies including the United States Golf Association, England Golf, and Scottish Golf Union have investigated the relative merits of full versus 3/4 difference in handicap.

• All of these independent pieces of research have come to a single conclusion – full difference between the handicaps of the two players is clearly the more equitable allowance.

• A Scottish Golf Union survey covering 4000 handicap singles matches showed:

**¾ Diff . ** Matches won by lower handicap player 61% Matches won by the higher handicap player 39%

**Full Diff. **Matches won by lower handicap player 55% Matches won by the higher handicap player 45%

It can be seen that even when conceding full difference the lower handicap player retains an advantage.

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > Also, they have shown that the better the player the more the handicap rating is in their favor. Your nephew may say "not fair" because either he is not as low a handicap as he says or one of you guys is sand bagging.

> >

> > And why would he complain if he is winning?

>

> It's been my experience, it's only in my favor if the course is difficult and or every mid-high cap player that's getting strokes isn't trending downward. I play to a 2-3. I can assure you, it doesn't' feel good when someone gets 2 strokes on a par 3 when 1 should be sufficient. However, if the course/par 3 is rated difficult it's more acceptable.

>

> The other day I played an intimidating 165yd par 3 that required a full carry over a large pond, the pin was 5 paces from left front, a mogul on the left, stream feeding the pond on the right-side and big sloping bunker in the back facing the fast green that slopes towards the front pond. I watched a 14 handi double the hole and the other guy take a triple while I stuck it 8' behind the pin and pared. Reason I like difficult.

That's why I think par 3s ought to be towards the end of the rating schedule. That way the chances of having to give two strokes to all but max cappers.

> @Pepperturbo said:

> The other day I played an intimidating 165yd par 3 that required a full carry over a large pond, the pin was 5 paces from left front, a mogul on the left, stream feeding the pond on the right-side and big sloping bunker in the back facing the fast green that slopes towards the front pond. I watched a 14 handi double the hole and the other guy take a triple while I stuck it 8' behind the pin and pared.

# :o Gosh.

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > I’m just guessing here that you guys are giving everyone their full handicaps?

> > If so, while he **** about giving strokes on the par threes, I bet he doesn’t have anything negative to say about taking his pop(s) on the par five, where it’s likely he accumulates a lot of his winnings.

> >

> > Like someone said above, wheel off him. Set him to zero and everyone else take the difference. If the handicap disparities are less than 18 odds are there won’t be as many strokes on the par threes.

> > It really does balance out pretty well, if the low guys end up at a disadvantage on the par threes they usually have it back on the fives.

>

> What do you mean by “ usually have it back on par 5s”? Do you mean he may make a birdie or that no strokes usually on a par 5? On our course I don’t find that at all. Seems like par 3s and 5s are always stroke holes. The infamous “ net eagle , eagle “ incident that happened to me last year during our match play tournament, was on a par 5 then par 3 5th and 6th holes.

Blade, probably wasn’t worded very well.

What I mean is if they wheel off the low guy, setting him to zero, he’ll likely be happier because there are fewer par three strokes. But all of a sudden he’s (the nephew) not getting pops on the par fives where he’s probably made a killing over the years because he’s getting strokes there along with the higher caps.

I know as one of the lower caps in our groups, I would much rather play the higher caps even up (both of us with pops) on the par fives as opposed to the par threes. On the fives the higher cap is going to have to hit two or three good shots as opposed to just one on a par three. It’s not uncommon for the higher cap to match, or even beat the lower cap on a par three, if he’s going to tie or beat me straight up there, I like it if he’s wasting a pop. It’s much less likely they’ll match scratch scores on the par five, but it’s pretty simple for them to stay within one, where their bogey matches my par.

It makes sense to me but I’m pretty sure I’m still wording it poorly. To sum it up, as a lower cap, when playing higher caps, I would rather use full caps for everyone. I think it favors the better player. At least that has been my experience. It may not be for others.

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > I’m just guessing here that you guys are giving everyone their full handicaps?

> > > If so, while he **** about giving strokes on the par threes, I bet he doesn’t have anything negative to say about taking his pop(s) on the par five, where it’s likely he accumulates a lot of his winnings.

> > >

> > > Like someone said above, wheel off him. Set him to zero and everyone else take the difference. If the handicap disparities are less than 18 odds are there won’t be as many strokes on the par threes.

> > > It really does balance out pretty well, if the low guys end up at a disadvantage on the par threes they usually have it back on the fives.

> >

> > What do you mean by “ usually have it back on par 5s”? Do you mean he may make a birdie or that no strokes usually on a par 5? On our course I don’t find that at all. Seems like par 3s and 5s are always stroke holes. The infamous “ net eagle , eagle “ incident that happened to me last year during our match play tournament, was on a par 5 then par 3 5th and 6th holes.

>

> Blade, probably wasn’t worded very well.

>

> What I mean is if they wheel off the low guy, setting him to zero, he’ll likely be happier because there are fewer par three strokes. But all of a sudden he’s (the nephew) not getting pops on the par fives where he’s probably made a killing over the years because he’s getting strokes there along with the higher caps.

>

> I know as one of the lower caps in our groups, I would much rather play the higher caps even up (both of us with pops) on the par fives as opposed to the par threes. On the fives the higher cap is going to have to hit two or three good shots as opposed to just one on a par three. It’s not uncommon for the higher cap to match, or even beat the lower cap on a par three, if he’s going to tie or beat me straight up there, I like it if he’s wasting a pop. It’s much less likely they’ll match scratch scores on the par five, but it’s pretty simple for them to stay within one, where their bogey matches my par.

>

> It makes sense to me but I’m pretty sure I’m still wording it poorly. To sum it up, as a lower cap, when playing higher caps, I would rather use full caps for everyone. I think it favors the better player. At least that has been my experience. It may not be for others.

>

>

I think you have it correct. If everyone gets full strokes, on most courses, the par 5’s are the high cap allocations and the par 3’s are the lowest cap allocations.

So if the nephew is a “good player” and is, say, a 7, with full pops he’s probably getting shots on all 4 par 5’s. Where he goes 4/3 or 5/4 to clean up when all the higher caps go 6/5.

When they subtract him out, his 5 is just a 5, but all the higher cap players stroke. Some tying going 6/5, others winning going 5/4 on the occasional par.

As a 7, I also always want to go full pops. It’s not the right way to do it because the low caps have a bigger advantage. They are better players AND getting shots? Subtracting the low guy out is the correct way to do it.

> @Newby said:

> One of a series of Myths & Misconceptions published by CONGU some years ago when the difference in CONGU was changed from 75% to 100%

>

> **Myth …..**

> _“It is unfair in singles match play to require the lower handicap player to concede full handicap difference to his opponent. Three-quarters of the difference is more equitable.”_

>

> • Numerous researchers and golfing bodies including the United States Golf Association, England Golf, and Scottish Golf Union have investigated the relative merits of full versus 3/4 difference in handicap.

> • All of these independent pieces of research have come to a single conclusion – full difference between the handicaps of the two players is clearly the more equitable allowance.

> • A Scottish Golf Union survey covering 4000 handicap singles matches showed:

> **¾ Diff . ** Matches won by lower handicap player 61% Matches won by the higher handicap player 39%

> **Full Diff. **Matches won by lower handicap player 55% Matches won by the higher handicap player 45%

> It can be seen that even when conceding full difference the lower handicap player retains an advantage.

>

>

>

>

>

Could be true in a system where everyone’s caps are based on actual competition. I’d say the 75% came about to try to make up for the 12 caps shooting 78 constantly against the low cap.

> @Augster said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > > I’m just guessing here that you guys are giving everyone their full handicaps?

> > > > If so, while he **** about giving strokes on the par threes, I bet he doesn’t have anything negative to say about taking his pop(s) on the par five, where it’s likely he accumulates a lot of his winnings.

> > > >

> > > > Like someone said above, wheel off him. Set him to zero and everyone else take the difference. If the handicap disparities are less than 18 odds are there won’t be as many strokes on the par threes.

> > > > It really does balance out pretty well, if the low guys end up at a disadvantage on the par threes they usually have it back on the fives.

> > >

> > > What do you mean by “ usually have it back on par 5s”? Do you mean he may make a birdie or that no strokes usually on a par 5? On our course I don’t find that at all. Seems like par 3s and 5s are always stroke holes. The infamous “ net eagle , eagle “ incident that happened to me last year during our match play tournament, was on a par 5 then par 3 5th and 6th holes.

> >

> > Blade, probably wasn’t worded very well.

> >

> > What I mean is if they wheel off the low guy, setting him to zero, he’ll likely be happier because there are fewer par three strokes. But all of a sudden he’s (the nephew) not getting pops on the par fives where he’s probably made a killing over the years because he’s getting strokes there along with the higher caps.

> >

> > I know as one of the lower caps in our groups, I would much rather play the higher caps even up (both of us with pops) on the par fives as opposed to the par threes. On the fives the higher cap is going to have to hit two or three good shots as opposed to just one on a par three. It’s not uncommon for the higher cap to match, or even beat the lower cap on a par three, if he’s going to tie or beat me straight up there, I like it if he’s wasting a pop. It’s much less likely they’ll match scratch scores on the par five, but it’s pretty simple for them to stay within one, where their bogey matches my par.

> >

> > It makes sense to me but I’m pretty sure I’m still wording it poorly. To sum it up, as a lower cap, when playing higher caps, I would rather use full caps for everyone. I think it favors the better player. At least that has been my experience. It may not be for others.

> >

> >

>

> I think you have it correct. If everyone gets full strokes, on most courses, the par 5’s are the high cap allocations and the par 3’s are the lowest cap allocations.

>

> So if the nephew is a “good player” and is, say, a 7, with full pops he’s probably getting shots on all 4 par 5’s. Where he goes 4/3 or 5/4 to clean up when all the higher caps go 6/5.

>

> When they subtract him out, his 5 is just a 5, but all the higher cap players stroke. Some tying going 6/5, others winning going 5/4 on the occasional par.

>

> As a 7, I also always want to go full pops. It’s not the right way to do it because the low caps have a bigger advantage. They are better players AND getting shots? Subtracting the low guy out is the correct way to do it.

>

>

Yep Augster, I’m glad someone else understands my convoluted thinking!?

> @Augster said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > > I’m just guessing here that you guys are giving everyone their full handicaps?

> > > > If so, while he **** about giving strokes on the par threes, I bet he doesn’t have anything negative to say about taking his pop(s) on the par five, where it’s likely he accumulates a lot of his winnings.

> > > >

> > > > Like someone said above, wheel off him. Set him to zero and everyone else take the difference. If the handicap disparities are less than 18 odds are there won’t be as many strokes on the par threes.

> > > > It really does balance out pretty well, if the low guys end up at a disadvantage on the par threes they usually have it back on the fives.

> > >

> > > What do you mean by “ usually have it back on par 5s”? Do you mean he may make a birdie or that no strokes usually on a par 5? On our course I don’t find that at all. Seems like par 3s and 5s are always stroke holes. The infamous “ net eagle , eagle “ incident that happened to me last year during our match play tournament, was on a par 5 then par 3 5th and 6th holes.

> >

> > Blade, probably wasn’t worded very well.

> >

> > What I mean is if they wheel off the low guy, setting him to zero, he’ll likely be happier because there are fewer par three strokes. But all of a sudden he’s (the nephew) not getting pops on the par fives where he’s probably made a killing over the years because he’s getting strokes there along with the higher caps.

> >

> > I know as one of the lower caps in our groups, I would much rather play the higher caps even up (both of us with pops) on the par fives as opposed to the par threes. On the fives the higher cap is going to have to hit two or three good shots as opposed to just one on a par three. It’s not uncommon for the higher cap to match, or even beat the lower cap on a par three, if he’s going to tie or beat me straight up there, I like it if he’s wasting a pop. It’s much less likely they’ll match scratch scores on the par five, but it’s pretty simple for them to stay within one, where their bogey matches my par.

> >

> > It makes sense to me but I’m pretty sure I’m still wording it poorly. To sum it up, as a lower cap, when playing higher caps, I would rather use full caps for everyone. I think it favors the better player. At least that has been my experience. It may not be for others.

> >

> >

>

> I think you have it correct. If everyone gets full strokes, on most courses, the par 5’s are the high cap allocations and the par 3’s are the lowest cap allocations.

>

> So if the nephew is a “good player” and is, say, a 7, with full pops he’s probably getting shots on all 4 par 5’s. Where he goes 4/3 or 5/4 to clean up when all the higher caps go 6/5.

>

> When they subtract him out, his 5 is just a 5, but all the higher cap players stroke. Some tying going 6/5, others winning going 5/4 on the occasional par.

>

> As a 7, I also always want to go full pops. It’s not the right way to do it because the low caps have a bigger advantage. They are better players AND getting shots? Subtracting the low guy out is the correct way to do it.

>

>

This. (although the OP didn't tell us the format)

The low cap gets zero and the others get the difference.

Think of it this way. A 9 is playing a match against an 18. If they both got full handicap strokes the 18 would be getting his 9 shots on the 9 easiest hole where he's less likely to need them.

He's supposed to get his 9 strokes on the tougher 9 holes, not the easier 9.

.

I guess I can see the argument for not playing off the low guy's cap if you want strokes if you are the low guy. The thing is now you are giving the higher caps their stroke advantage on the easier rated holes which makes it easier to beat you as you are forced to make birdie to win the hole without them making a mess. You want them trying to tie you off on a hole trying to salvage bogey on the harder holes with their pops. You dont want to have to tie them off using a birdie against their pop on easy holes.

> @Newby said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

>

> > The other day I played an intimidating 165yd par 3 that required a full carry over a large pond, the pin was 5 paces from left front, a mogul on the left, stream feeding the pond on the right-side and big sloping bunker in the back facing the fast green that slopes towards the front pond. I watched a 14 handi double the hole and the other guy take a triple while I stuck it 8' behind the pin and pared.

>

> # :o Gosh.

You're surprised he missed the 8 footer aren't you? :)