Slope setting on Range finder got turned on by accident....

 Frostfield ·  
FrostfieldFrostfield Members  940WRX Points: 140Posts: 940 Golden Tee
Joined:  edited May 17, 2019 in The Cooler - "Heated Topics" #1

So last week I'm in a tournament. My range finder has the slope option which I had turned off for the tourney. I have one of those magnetic holders velcroed around it as well. I'm using it all day as normal then I get to the 11th tee (par 3) and the freaking slope is ON. What would the ruling be? I was shocked to say the least. The guys in the group said no penalty because of no intent but I dunno. Thoughts?

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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15869WRX Points: 1,152Posts: 15,869 Titanium Tees
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    Intent is not part of rule 4.3a. The issue is whether you "used" the illegal equipment. IMO the rules are not terribly explicit about what constitutes use, it can be subjective. Did you actually see the slope information, or did you simply notice that the function was switched on?

    Note that the first breach is the general penalty, it's only the second breach that requires DQ.

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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members  3092WRX Points: 331Posts: 3,092 Titanium Tees
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    I've been told by higher ups that as long as the player doesn't use the number in his/her decision making, the player is fine. Which leads us back to the basic assumption in the rules that everyone is acting honestly.

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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15869WRX Points: 1,152Posts: 15,869 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Halebopp said:

    I've been told by higher ups that as long as the player doesn't use the number in his/her decision making, the player is fine. Which leads us back to the basic assumption in the rules that everyone is acting honestly.

    A philosophical question: Once you have seen the number, how can you avoid “using” it?

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  • rogolfrogolf Members  4349WRX Points: 593Posts: 4,349 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Sawgrass said:

    On -, @Halebopp said:

    I've been told by higher ups that as long as the player doesn't use the number in his/her decision making, the player is fine. Which leads us back to the basic assumption in the rules that everyone is acting honestly.

    A philosophical question: Once you have seen the number, how can you avoid “using” it?

    Agree, difficult to assess, therefore rule against the player to protect the field. Intent in this case is irrelevant. Not sure where Halebopp's "higher ups" got the opinion on "using the information", but it certainly sounds very weak to me (like let's try to find a reason for this not to be a breach).

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  • FrostfieldFrostfield Members  940WRX Points: 140Posts: 940 Golden Tee
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    On -, @rogolf said:

    On -, @Sawgrass said:

    On -, @Halebopp said:

    I've been told by higher ups that as long as the player doesn't use the number in his/her decision making, the player is fine. Which leads us back to the basic assumption in the rules that everyone is acting honestly.

    A philosophical question: Once you have seen the number, how can you avoid “using” it?

    Agree, difficult to assess, therefore rule against the player to protect the field. Intent in this case is irrelevant. Not sure where Halebopp's "higher ups" got the opinion on "using the information", but it certainly sounds very weak to me (like let's try to find a reason for this not to be a breach).

    Do you have a blue blazer?

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  • antipantip Members  1159WRX Points: 375Posts: 1,159 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @rogolf said:

    On -, @Sawgrass said:

    On -, @Halebopp said:

    I've been told by higher ups that as long as the player doesn't use the number in his/her decision making, the player is fine. Which leads us back to the basic assumption in the rules that everyone is acting honestly.

    A philosophical question: Once you have seen the number, how can you avoid “using” it?

    Agree, difficult to assess, therefore rule against the player to protect the field. Intent in this case is irrelevant. Not sure where Halebopp's "higher ups" got the opinion on "using the information", but it certainly sounds very weak to me (like let's try to find a reason for this not to be a breach).

    Yes, this one is a bit tricky and I don't think it is black and white. IMO, noticing that the Slope function is turned on unintentionally and gaining or using the information are not necessarily the same thing. You could find out it is on without even being in the process of looking at the target area for a shot or you could be on an entirely flat hole/course - that is, there may be no information to be had. I lean towards penalty if there is any realistic chance of needing to protect the field, but there are a range of situations where that would not seem relevant.

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  • Deceptively ShortDeceptively Short Members  566WRX Points: 130Posts: 566 Golden Tee
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    Couldn’t this be comparable to receiving, but not having asked for, advice given illegally? The giver is penalised but the receiver isn’t even though the advice might be helpful. The advice wasn’t asked for but if it is about ‘protecting the field’ the receiver should be penalised which we we would all think unfair .
    .

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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members  3092WRX Points: 331Posts: 3,092 Titanium Tees
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    I agree it's not the perfect answer and see the difficulty in not using the information you have already gained.

    Maybe you could ask the USGA?

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  • sui generissui generis Members  4450WRX Points: 782Posts: 4,450 Titanium Tees
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    I don't find the "accidental" nature of the breach compelling. After all, a player "accidentally" moving his ball in play in the general area is a breach.

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  • FrostfieldFrostfield Members  940WRX Points: 140Posts: 940 Golden Tee
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    On -, @sui generis said:

    I don't find the "accidental" nature of the breach compelling. After all, a player "accidentally" moving his ball in play in the general area is a breach.

    In that case the players action was the cause. Not in this case. Vibrating cart is all I can think of.

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  • FrostfieldFrostfield Members  940WRX Points: 140Posts: 940 Golden Tee
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    Just called the USGA. It should’ve been a 2 stroke penalty. Dumb rule. Needs to have intent added like the seniors and their anchoring (or lack of lol)

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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members  3092WRX Points: 331Posts: 3,092 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Frostfield said:

    Just called the USGA. It should’ve been a 2 stroke penalty. Dumb rule. Needs to have intent added like the seniors and their anchoring (or lack of lol)

    Thank you for checking and letting us know.

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4968WRX Points: 482Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,968 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Frostfield said:

    Just called the USGA. It should’ve been a 2 stroke penalty. Dumb rule. Needs to have intent added like the seniors and their anchoring (or lack of lol)

    It seems that DQ is avoided because the player noticed the breach and had not actually used the illegal feature. However, I would not regard this particular response as binding to cover all situations based on some valid comments in this thread.

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  • FrostfieldFrostfield Members  940WRX Points: 140Posts: 940 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited May 18, 2019 #16

    On -, @Mr. Bean said:

    On -, @Frostfield said:

    Just called the USGA. It should’ve been a 2 stroke penalty. Dumb rule. Needs to have intent added like the seniors and their anchoring (or lack of lol)

    It seems that DQ is avoided because the player noticed the breach and had not actually used the illegal feature. However, I would not regard this particular response as binding to cover all situations based on some valid comments in this thread.

    It technically was used. Only was noticed when ranging. First breach is 2
    Shots. 2nd breach is DQ.

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  • Deceptively ShortDeceptively Short Members  566WRX Points: 130Posts: 566 Golden Tee
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    I played Farmlinks in Alabama a few years ago and on one very steep drop par 3 they had the “slope” or “plays as” length from each tee written on a board. As I come from CONGU Land it didn’t make any difference for me as I wasn’t posting the round. But for you GHIN guys? What if this is your home course and you regularly benefit from this - fair?

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  • puttingmattputtingmatt puttingmatt Summer/ Michigan-- Winter/ FloridaMembers  5469WRX Points: 508Handicap: 6Posts: 5,469 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 18, 2019 #18

    Just curious why the OP excepted his playing partners answer and not bring it up with the tournaments rules directors ? How was the
    field protected, when others in group said no penalty , card is signed and tournament is over ? The entire episode is one breach on top of another breach, etc....

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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15869WRX Points: 1,152Posts: 15,869 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Deceptively Short said:

    I played Farmlinks in Alabama a few years ago and on one very steep drop par 3 they had the “slope” or “plays as” length from each tee written on a board. As I come from CONGU Land it didn’t make any difference for me as I wasn’t posting the round. But for you GHIN guys? What if this is your home course and you regularly benefit from this - fair?

    Accidentally seeing a sign (that shouldn't be there) isn't a violation.

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  • Deceptively ShortDeceptively Short Members  566WRX Points: 130Posts: 566 Golden Tee
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    Deliberately looking at a sign (that shouldn’t be there) would be a violation?

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  • rogolfrogolf Members  4349WRX Points: 593Posts: 4,349 Titanium Tees
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    IMO, the sign is displaying public information, similar to scoreboards at Tour events which show the length of players' putts.

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4968WRX Points: 482Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,968 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Frostfield said:

    On -, @Mr. Bean said:

    On -, @Frostfield said:

    Just called the USGA. It should’ve been a 2 stroke penalty. Dumb rule. Needs to have intent added like the seniors and their anchoring (or lack of lol)

    It seems that DQ is avoided because the player noticed the breach and had not actually used the illegal feature. However, I would not regard this particular response as binding to cover all situations based on some valid comments in this thread.

    It technically was used. Only was noticed when ranging. First breach is 2
    Shots. 2nd breach is DQ.

    What I tried to say was that it was (technically) used only once, i.e. when discovering the slope function was on. However, that leaves us with the question whether the function had been on for a longer period of time or just on that 11th hole and how can a player verify that. If there is any doubt that would IMO be ruled against the player.

    Posted:
  • FrostfieldFrostfield Members  940WRX Points: 140Posts: 940 Golden Tee
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    On -, @puttingmatt said:

    Just curious why the OP excepted his playing partners answer and not bring it up with the tournaments rules directors ? How was the
    field protected, when others in group said no penalty , card is signed and tournament is over ? The entire episode is one breach on top of another breach, etc....

    It didn’t affect the competition because it was a fourball. My partner tied me on that hole.

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  • FrostfieldFrostfield Members  940WRX Points: 140Posts: 940 Golden Tee
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    On -, @Mr. Bean said:

    On -, @Frostfield said:

    On -, @Mr. Bean said:

    On -, @Frostfield said:

    Just called the USGA. It should’ve been a 2 stroke penalty. Dumb rule. Needs to have intent added like the seniors and their anchoring (or lack of lol)

    It seems that DQ is avoided because the player noticed the breach and had not actually used the illegal feature. However, I would not regard this particular response as binding to cover all situations based on some valid comments in this thread.

    It technically was used. Only was noticed when ranging. First breach is 2
    Shots. 2nd breach is DQ.

    What I tried to say was that it was (technically) used only once, i.e. when discovering the slope function was on. However, that leaves us with the question whether the function had been on for a longer period of time or just on that 11th hole and how can a player verify that. If there is any doubt that would IMO be ruled against the player.

    When my slope is turned on it displays 2 numbers. It’s very obvious when it’s on.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,190Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 19, 2019 #26

    Prime reason while I’ll never buy one with slope. It trains you to need that number , and doesn’t train you to judge the elevation yourself.

    I’d say if you saw the number you’d have to intentionally take more or less club and hit a bad shot , otherwise you used it.

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4968WRX Points: 482Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,968 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @bladehunter said:

    Prime reason while I’ll never buy one with slope. It trains you to need that number , and doesn’t train you to judge the elevation yourself.

    I’d say if you saw the number you’d have to intentionally take more or less club and hit a bad shot , otherwise you used it.

    So... if you ask for an advice and then not use it you are not in breach of R10.2 ..?

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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,190Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Mr. Bean said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    Prime reason while I’ll never buy one with slope. It trains you to need that number , and doesn’t train you to judge the elevation yourself.

    I’d say if you saw the number you’d have to intentionally take more or less club and hit a bad shot , otherwise you used it.

    So... if you ask for an advice and then not use it you are not in breach of R10.2 ..?

    Good point. It’s is an ask for advice , even if unintentional similar to just casually saying “ man I think the winds up more than we feel , what do you think “. Sometimes said without thinking as conversation, not really expecting an exact club suggestion. So.... **** , DQ then !

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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12537WRX Points: 1,551Handicap: 3.2Posts: 12,537 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @bladehunter said:

    Prime reason while I’ll never buy one with slope. It trains you to need that number , and doesn’t train you to judge the elevation yourself.

    I’d say if you saw the number you’d have to intentionally take more or less club and hit a bad shot , otherwise you used it.

    I always, at least in the year or so I've had it, turned my slope function off for events. That said I played this morning with slope on and not once noticed what it said. Even with both numbers displaying you have to want to know the second number to even notice it.

    Not really pertinent to whether it should be a penalty in an event but replying to a couple posts stating that if it's turned on you will have seen it.

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  • CAT GOLFERCAT GOLFER Members  1027WRX Points: 141Posts: 1,027 Platinum Tees
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    No rangefinder should have slope.

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