Why Am I Turning The Ball Over With X100?

 EmperorPenguin ·  
EmperorPenguinEmperorPenguin Members  1222WRX Points: 130Posts: 1,222 Platinum Tees
Joined:  in WRX Club Techs #1

I recently bought an old set of Titleist DCI blacks, 2-PW. The set was originally advertised as Dynamic Gold S300, but when the clubs arrived I noticed that the 2 iron was X100 and mismatched in length (about 40"). I was initially a little disappointed, but I decided to cut it down to the proper length (39", based on my 5 iron at 37.5") and give it a try. The myth I've always heard was that if a shaft is too stiff, the club will not release and you end up coming off the ball; conversely, if a shaft is too flexible the shot will hook. I reckoned that if this is the case, I might want to have the X-flex 2 iron in my bag if I can always count on a fade when I need it.

I went to the local muni with the set and for the first short par 4, a dogleg right, I teed up the 2 iron, aimed down the middle and swung, hoping for the fade. To my surprise, and delight, the shot started right center, and drew about five yards, landing on the middle of the fairway and released and ran for a total of about 215 yards. Pretty **** good! Where was the fade? I thought it was a fluke swing, so I waited for the next short par 4 and used the 2 iron again. Same thing! Another slight draw, this time about maybe three yards.

What's going on here? I have been swinging S300's all my golfing life. My swing speed with the driver is no more than 100 mph. I generally hit the ball fairly straight, and if anything I will have a tendency to cut, and drawing the ball is a rare occurrence, though for now I'm thinking about switching to X100's, even though I am nowhere near as good as a pro.

Posted:
«1
2

Comments

  • gioguy21gioguy21 NJMembers  8157WRX Points: 1,382Handicap: +1.5 (1194646)Posts: 8,157 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #2

    how's the offset? swingweight compared to the other ones? lie?

    variety of things go into it -

    Posted:

    Tour M3 460 / 10.1* (set -2*) / RIPx 65TX tipped 2" playing 44.25"
    Epic Flash SZ / 3+ (set -1/N) / HZRDUS Smoke Black 75g 6.5 tipped 2"
    Epic CF17 3i / Tensei PW Hybrid 100TX
    Apex MB Chrome / 3-PW / Modus 130 X
    MD4 Chrome / 52, 56, 60 / DG 115 S200 (for now)
    Piretti Tour 801R / 35.5"
    SC Futura X Broomstick Putter experiment

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3530WRX Points: 1,590Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,530 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 22, 2019 #3

    After you cut the inch off the 2-iron, did you add back any weight? Swing weight and total weight will have a lot more influence on your swing than shaft profile will. But with regards to that, X100s aren't just stiffer S300s, they are a different profile overall; much stiffer in the mid and softer at the very tip. Whether or not this is impacting your swing is hard to say, but its more likely the weight is causing your path to differ slightly if you normally hit a fade and all of the sudden are hitting a bit of a push draw.

    Also the idea of shaft stiffness/profile having an absolute fade or draw tendency is really on accounting for how a robot would swing it, not a human. A shaft that is too stiff or too stout of a profile for the type of swing doesn't "not release", but rather does not release as much or in a way that lines up with the player's swing. If nothing is done to compensate then slices or blocks can occur, but since we usually compensate for things based on feel, the opposite can also occur. The same is true for the opposite scenario. There is what the shaft wants to do, and what we do in reaction to what that feels like, which can create all sorts of different results that are unfortunately not black and white based on what a shaft is supposed to do.

    In terms of figuring out what is going on with your 2-iron, I would first check it's swing weight next to the other irons, then check loft and lie angle. If the shaft was that over length then there is also a chance that it was soft stepped, once maybe twice, and this would compound the difference between the S300 that you're used to and the now even softer tipped X100, which could have an impact as well.

    Posted:
    Mizuno ST190 9.5* Diamana X'17 70XX || Taylormade M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX
    Titleist 915FD 15* Kuro Kage 80XTS || Taylormade RSI UDI 16* Fujikura Motore Speeder HB 9.8 Tour-Spec X
    Titleist 915FD 18* Kuro Kage 90XTS || Titleist 818H1 18.25* Diamana Kai'li s103x Prototype 
    Callaway X-Forged UT 20* Kuro Kage XT 100TX Hybrid
    Callaway X-Forged UT 23* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Bridgestone J40 DPC 5i-7i 27*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey Special 61* Black Oxide V-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot

    WITB Thread
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers  13784WRX Points: 2,626Handicap: 0.9 >< 3.8Posts: 13,784 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #4

    x100's. Everyone afraid of them. They are awesome

    Posted:

    Ping G400 LST 10.6* GD BB 7s
    Ping G400 3w 13.5* Oban Revenge 65x
    Ping G400 5w 16.5* Blueboard Ion 73x
    Callaway Apex 4h 23* GD Tour AD DI 95x
    Callaway Apex 5h 26* GD Tour AD DI 105x
    Ping Blueprint 6 - PW UST Recoil 110
    Vokey SM2 50-54tvd-59tvd-64 s400 onyx
    Piretti Matera Elite torched

  • t4t3rt4t3r Members  3052WRX Points: 397Posts: 3,052 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #5

    On -, @cardoustie said:

    x100's. Everyone afraid of them. They are awesome

    They are a little tiring over multiple days for me, but have never found anything more consistent (yes I’m looking at you Modus - feels much better but still not as consistent as X100’s). May have to switch back...

    Posted:
    Ping G410 LST 10.5* - PX HZRDUS Yellow 6.5
    Titleist TS2 16.5* - Diamana S+ 72x
    Callaway Epic Flash 20* - TBD
    Bridgestone J40 CB 4-PW - DG Tour Issue AMT X100
    Bridgestone J15 50.08 - DG Tour Issue S400
    Callaway MD4 54.10S - Nippon Modus 125 Wedge
    Taylormade Milled Grind 58.12 - DG S400
    Scotty Cameron Milspec 350g
    Bridgestone Tour B XS
  • PittknifePittknife Members  141WRX Points: 177Posts: 141 Fairways
    Joined:  #7

    Stiffness doesn't prevent a draw bias, in fact, if a shaft is too stiff you can start to pull and shut the face causing the ball to go way left. Too soft doesn't always make it go left as well, if it is too whippy it can lag behind causing you to hit block shots or slices. It's just about what the shaft does with your swing, and all swings are so unique that it is just a broad generalization of tendencies.

    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • SocratesSocrates Warning Points 1+ WinnipegClubWRX  10199WRX Points: 1,107Handicap: 4ishPosts: 10,199 ClubWRX
    Joined:  #8

    If you talk to True Temper, they are all about how you load and unload the shaft. Really has very little to do with swing speed or ability. If you like the ball flight, I would say the X100's are better suited for you.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
    MCC Align Midsize

  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11069WRX Points: 1,952Posts: 11,069 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #9

    On -, @Socrates said:

    If you talk to True Temper, they are all about how you load and unload the shaft. Really has very little to do with swing speed or ability. If you like the ball flight, I would say the X100's are better suited for you.

    CORRECT, its not about how fast we swing the club, but how we swing it, so a smooth swing player could play "what ever" he feels like, he dont force the shaft to handle a lot of power, while a aggressive swinger or "hitter type" might stress the shaft, even if he dont gain a lot of club speed, so the way we swing the clubs is what decides what fits us, and in that picture, FEEL is a important part of it.

    DG X100 is NOT a monster shaft, but it can handle a monster player, so most of them who think its strong and stout before they tried it, would most likely be surprised of how easy they are to handle compared to what they thought it would be.
    Dynamic has been around since the days of the Willys Jeep or WW2....what other products from those days is still to be found and wanted like this shafts are?

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

  • EmperorPenguinEmperorPenguin Members  1222WRX Points: 130Posts: 1,222 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #10

    Here are the specs according to Titleist's website. The lofts and lies are listed below, and I think they accurately reflect what I have. Thankfully, they were made with standard lengths (5 iron 37.5") then.
    https://www.titleist.com/golf-clubs/irons/dci-black
    I swing-weighted the clubs and they come in a touch heavier, mostly around D2. However, the 2 iron swingweights just a touch over D2, maybe D2.25? Overall there seems to be nothing drastic compared to the other irons in the set.

    Posted:
  • GolfChannelGolfChannel Orlando, FloridaMembers  2514WRX Points: 751Handicap: 0.9Posts: 2,514 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #11

    The one predominant factor in the quality of my swing has been a shaft heavy enough to have good timing and tempo. I have always got on with anything 120 grams or heavier. My back up shaft has always been X100’s whether swinging fast or slow.

    Swing what works, there are no absolutes only starting points, it’s a simple equation.

    Posted:
    Driver: Ping G410 Plus w/Tensei Orange
    3 Wood: Titleist TS2 w/HZRDUS Smoke
    Hybrid: Titleist 718 H2 w/Atmos Blue TS 
    Irons: Ping iBlade Nippon AWT 2.0 Stiff
    Wedges: Callaway MD3 50, 54, and 58
    Putter: Original Odyssey White Hot XG No. 7
    Ball: Bridgestone XS
  • EmperorPenguinEmperorPenguin Members  1222WRX Points: 130Posts: 1,222 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #12

    Why, then, are we telling beginning golfers that they should start swinging regular shafts? Why not just start them on day one with X100's? Also, if shaft flex means so little, what would happen if a tour pro swings S300's or even R300's?

    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • titleist26titleist26 Members  331WRX Points: 79Posts: 331 Greens
    Joined:  #13

    On -, @EmperorPenguin said:

    Why, then, are we telling beginning golfers that they should start swinging regular shafts? Why not just start them on day one with X100's? Also, if shaft flex means so little, what would happen if a tour pro swings S300's or even R300's?

    Very good point. I honestly would have become a good golfer alot quicker if someone had suggested that to me years ago... The golf world is obsessed with tying clubs/shafts to skill level when even high handicap golfers will benefit from x flex shafts or low spin heads depending on their swing dynamics.

    Posted:
  • speeder757speeder757 Members  1184WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,184 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #14

    Lots of Tour Pro's use S300's as do a lot use X100's and S400's

    On -, @EmperorPenguin said:

    Why, then, are we telling beginning golfers that they should start swinging regular shafts? Why not just start them on day one with X100's? Also, if shaft flex means so little, what would happen if a tour pro swings S300's or even R300's?
    Posted:
  • SocratesSocrates Warning Points 1+ WinnipegClubWRX  10199WRX Points: 1,107Handicap: 4ishPosts: 10,199 ClubWRX
    Joined:  edited May 23, 2019 #15

    On -, @EmperorPenguin said:

    Why, then, are we telling beginning golfers that they should start swinging regular shafts? Why not just start them on day one with X100's? Also, if shaft flex means so little, what would happen if a tour pro swings S300's or even R300's?

    There are Pro's who use R shafts. I believe Furyk is one.
    The old days before fitting was common was when the mantra was, beginners should use R's. Now you should experiment with a whole bunch of shafts and find what suits you. I play just fine with R flex shafts. I could easily play stiffer based on swing speed alone and most swing analyzers say I should, but my transition is smooth so I can play just fine with most R shafts. I also like shafts (irons) in the 80g range.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
    MCC Align Midsize

  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3530WRX Points: 1,590Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,530 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 23, 2019 #16

    On -, @EmperorPenguin said:

    Also, if shaft flex means so little, what would happen if a tour pro swings S300's or even R300's?

    You could watch Rickie Fowler, Hideki Matsuysma, Brian Harmon, or Matt Kuchar to find out. 😛

    Shaft flex doesn't "mean so little", it's just that people fixate on it a little too much sometimes when things like weight and length should be considered first.

    Posted:
    Mizuno ST190 9.5* Diamana X'17 70XX || Taylormade M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX
    Titleist 915FD 15* Kuro Kage 80XTS || Taylormade RSI UDI 16* Fujikura Motore Speeder HB 9.8 Tour-Spec X
    Titleist 915FD 18* Kuro Kage 90XTS || Titleist 818H1 18.25* Diamana Kai'li s103x Prototype 
    Callaway X-Forged UT 20* Kuro Kage XT 100TX Hybrid
    Callaway X-Forged UT 23* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Bridgestone J40 DPC 5i-7i 27*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey Special 61* Black Oxide V-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot

    WITB Thread
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11069WRX Points: 1,952Posts: 11,069 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #17

    On -, @EmperorPenguin said:

    Why, then, are we telling beginning golfers that they should start swinging regular shafts? Why not just start them on day one with X100's? Also, if shaft flex means so little, what would happen if a tour pro swings S300's or even R300's?

    Feel of flex works as a "trigger" for how much power the player would put on that club. If feel of flex is strong he will use more power to make that shaft load and feel right, and if its to soft, he will slow down. Advanced club makers is using this trigger to get the players timing and swing into a path that works for him, so some of us would benefit form a "needle in the a.." to speed it up a little, others would benefit by a shaft who slows them down a bit. Feel of flex is very important, it makes a difference for how we swing the club.

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • TLT_DanTLT_Dan TLT_DAN Hampton, ONMembers  1083WRX Points: 133Posts: 1,083 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #18

    I fully expect that this club head is a bit more upright, which in turn will put a draw spin on the ball. I would compare lie angles before spending lots on shafts

    Posted:

    Regards Dan

    True Length Technology

    True Frequency Technology

  • EmperorPenguinEmperorPenguin Members  1222WRX Points: 130Posts: 1,222 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited May 23, 2019 #19

    I've been playing standard lies all my life, and this 2 iron is no different. The club sits perfectly flat when soled. Upright means toe up. Furthermore, if the lie were to be upright on the original Titleist DCI, the loft number on the sole would be painted white instead of black as it is now.

    Posted:
  • speeder757speeder757 Members  1184WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,184 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #20

    Have the irons been soft stepped? A slightly weaker tip will help pull the ball left

    Posted:
  • BuzzkillBuzzkill Marshals  7172WRX Points: 565Handicap: 3Posts: 7,172 Marshals
    Joined:  #21

    On -, @EmperorPenguin said:

    I recently bought an old set of Titleist DCI blacks, 2-PW. The set was originally advertised as Dynamic Gold S300, but when the clubs arrived I noticed that the 2 iron was X100 and mismatched in length (about 40"). I was initially a little disappointed, but I decided to cut it down to the proper length (39", based on my 5 iron at 37.5") and give it a try. The myth I've always heard was that if a shaft is too stiff, the club will not release and you end up coming off the ball; conversely, if a shaft is too flexible the shot will hook. I reckoned that if this is the case, I might want to have the X-flex 2 iron in my bag if I can always count on a fade when I need it.

    I went to the local muni with the set and for the first short par 4, a dogleg right, I teed up the 2 iron, aimed down the middle and swung, hoping for the fade. To my surprise, and delight, the shot started right center, and drew about five yards, landing on the middle of the fairway and released and ran for a total of about 215 yards. Pretty **** good! Where was the fade? I thought it was a fluke swing, so I waited for the next short par 4 and used the 2 iron again. Same thing! Another slight draw, this time about maybe three yards.

    What's going on here? I have been swinging S300's all my golfing life. My swing speed with the driver is no more than 100 mph. I generally hit the ball fairly straight, and if anything I will have a tendency to cut, and drawing the ball is a rare occurrence, though for now I'm thinking about switching to X100's, even though I am nowhere near as good as a pro.

    Interesting for sure! I'm old school so I still believe that a shaft too flexible will have a slight closed face due to active shaft kicking forward before impact then of course, too stiff a shaft won't load and kick forward enough.

    Posted:
    Baggin' Cobras
    Location:  Colorado Springs, CO
    Handicap:  3

  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers  9273WRX Points: 2,911Posts: 9,273 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #22

    Profile is as important as stated flex. How you react to the shaft loading can change how you deliver the club

    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • EmperorPenguinEmperorPenguin Members  1222WRX Points: 130Posts: 1,222 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #23

    On -, @speeder757 said:

    Have the irons been soft stepped? A slightly weaker tip will help pull the ball left

    I don't know if it is soft-stepped, but here are some measurements.
    The distance from the tip of the hosel to the first step is 8.5" on the 5 iron.
    The distance from the tip of the hosel to the first step is 7.75" on the 6 iron.
    The distance from the tip of the hosel to the first step is a little under 9.5" on the 3 iron.
    Finally, the distance from the tip of the hosel to the first step is a little more than 8.5" on the lovely X100 2 iron.

    Posted:
  • EmperorPenguinEmperorPenguin Members  1222WRX Points: 130Posts: 1,222 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited May 24, 2019 #24

    On -, @Krt22 said:

    Profile is as important as stated flex. How you react to the shaft loading can change how you deliver the club

    There must be some merit to the premise that faster swings require stiffer shafts. I was a little surprised that some tour pros are using R300's, but to take this to an extreme: I don't think any of them are using the whippy, geezer-flex (A) shafts.

    Posted:
  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers  9273WRX Points: 2,911Posts: 9,273 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #25

    That's the thing, how you generate that speed dictates how the shaft loads. How you react to that feel absolutely can impact delivery. If you are very smooth/fluid you can likely get away with a lighter flex, where as if you are more aggressive you might need something more stout. I have an aggressive transition, when I sense the shaft loading hard I naturally react by trying to square the face and hook it off the planet, so soft butt/stiff tip shafts just dont work for me. Some players can naturally react better to whatever is in their hands as well. Look at Mark Crossfield, he hits every dang club he tries basically the same.

    Posted:
  • mogc60mogc60 Members  1018WRX Points: 491Posts: 1,018 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #26

    The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense. It’s all how you load and unload the club. For some it’s true and others a total opposite(my experience). However, what you’ve learned to play with is part of the loading and releasing of the club that you taught your body to do. Shafts that are too soft will torque or rotate open and the head will lag. This enables you to have a closed hand position and keep the face square. Put a shaft that’s stiffer in your hands and it doesn’t torque open and you don’t have the speed to lag the clubhead and that exact same hand position through impact results in a pull or nasty pull hook.

    Posted:

    CALLAWAY EPIC FLASH SZ 9 EV BLACK 75 6.5 44 1/4”
    CALLAWAY EPIC FLASH SZ 15 MATRIX HD9 STRONG 41.5”
    WILSON FG5 TOUR 17* RIP PHENOM 100 S
    SRIXON Z FORGED 3-PW CATALYST 100 6.5
    CLEVELAND RTX4 50* CATALYST 100 6.0
    CLEVELAND RTX4 54* CATALYST 100 6.0
    CLEVELAND RTX4 58* MODUS 120X
    SEEMORE mFGP20 PLATINUM 38”
    SNELL MTB-X

  • Pi5seekerPi5seeker Members  887WRX Points: 125Posts: 887 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #27

    Shaft weight makes more of a difference with timing and face path than flex does, IMO.

    Posted:
    Cobra F8 9.5* Evenflow Blue
    Cobra F8 5-6 17* Evenflow Blue
    Cobra F8 Hybrid 19* Smacwrap
    Cobra King Utility 22.5* C-Taper Lite
    Ping I210 5-UW PX LZ 6.0
    Bridgestone XW-1 56* 60* DG Spinner
    Odyssey Strokelab Seven S
    Z-Star
    Clicgear 3.5/Cobra King Ultradry
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • ThayneilThayneil Members  631WRX Points: 89Handicap: 11Posts: 631 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #28

    On -, @EmperorPenguin said:

    On -, @Krt22 said:

    Profile is as important as stated flex. How you react to the shaft loading can change how you deliver the club

    There must be some merit to the premise that faster swings require stiffer shafts. I was a little surprised that some tour pros are using R300's, but to take this to an extreme: I don't think any of them are using the whippy, geezer-flex (A) shafts.

    Furyk uses KBS Tours at appr 5.6 flex not hugely stiff but not soft either

    Posted:
  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3530WRX Points: 1,590Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,530 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 24, 2019 #29

    On -, @mogc60 said:

    The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense. It’s all how you load and unload the club. For some it’s true and others a total opposite(my experience). However, what you’ve learned to play with is part of the loading and releasing of the club that you taught your body to do. Shafts that are too soft will torque or rotate open and the head will lag. This enables you to have a closed hand position and keep the face square. Put a shaft that’s stiffer in your hands and it doesn’t torque open and you don’t have the speed to lag the clubhead and that exact same hand position through impact results in a pull or nasty pull hook.

    The first bit is absolutely true and I agree, but the second bit is unfortunately one of those myths as well. No matter how soft the shaft is, the clubhead never "lags" or "torques open". There can be a sensation of lag during the loading portion of the swing but the clubhead always catches up and overtakes the shaft when approaching impact. This overtaking (called "lead deflection") adds loft and also a small amount of face closure as well. Lower launch, lower spin shafts deflect less, higher launch/spin shafts deflect more, but only if you have a swing that loads then the same. Many people react to what the shaft does and compensate, sometimes purely subconsciously, and largely negate the differences between shafts. No component of a shaft will actually open the face of a club however.

    Posted:
    Mizuno ST190 9.5* Diamana X'17 70XX || Taylormade M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX
    Titleist 915FD 15* Kuro Kage 80XTS || Taylormade RSI UDI 16* Fujikura Motore Speeder HB 9.8 Tour-Spec X
    Titleist 915FD 18* Kuro Kage 90XTS || Titleist 818H1 18.25* Diamana Kai'li s103x Prototype 
    Callaway X-Forged UT 20* Kuro Kage XT 100TX Hybrid
    Callaway X-Forged UT 23* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Bridgestone J40 DPC 5i-7i 27*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Vokey Special 61* Black Oxide V-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
    Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot

    WITB Thread
  • BuzzkillBuzzkill Marshals  7172WRX Points: 565Handicap: 3Posts: 7,172 Marshals
    Joined:  #30

    On -, @Valtiel said:

    On -, @mogc60 said:

    The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense. It’s all how you load and unload the club. For some it’s true and others a total opposite(my experience). However, what you’ve learned to play with is part of the loading and releasing of the club that you taught your body to do. Shafts that are too soft will torque or rotate open and the head will lag. This enables you to have a closed hand position and keep the face square. Put a shaft that’s stiffer in your hands and it doesn’t torque open and you don’t have the speed to lag the clubhead and that exact same hand position through impact results in a pull or nasty pull hook.

    The first bit is absolutely true and I agree, but the second bit is unfortunately one of those myths as well. No matter how soft the shaft is, the clubhead never "lags" or "torques open". There can be a sensation of lag during the loading portion of the swing but the clubhead always catches up and overtakes the shaft when approaching impact. This overtaking (called "lead deflection") adds loft and also a small amount of face closure as well. Lower launch, lower spin shafts deflect less, higher launch/spin shafts deflect more, but only if you have a swing that loads then the same. Many people react to what the shaft does and compensate, sometimes purely subconsciously, and largely negate the differences between shafts. No component of a shaft will actually open the face of a club however.

    Agree!

    Posted:
    Baggin' Cobras
    Location:  Colorado Springs, CO
    Handicap:  3

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • SocratesSocrates Warning Points 1+ WinnipegClubWRX  10199WRX Points: 1,107Handicap: 4ishPosts: 10,199 ClubWRX
    Joined:  #31

    On -, @Valtiel said:

    On -, @mogc60 said:

    The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense. It’s all how you load and unload the club. For some it’s true and others a total opposite(my experience). However, what you’ve learned to play with is part of the loading and releasing of the club that you taught your body to do. Shafts that are too soft will torque or rotate open and the head will lag. This enables you to have a closed hand position and keep the face square. Put a shaft that’s stiffer in your hands and it doesn’t torque open and you don’t have the speed to lag the clubhead and that exact same hand position through impact results in a pull or nasty pull hook.

    The first bit is absolutely true and I agree, but the second bit is unfortunately one of those myths as well. No matter how soft the shaft is, the clubhead never "lags" or "torques open". There can be a sensation of lag during the loading portion of the swing but the clubhead always catches up and overtakes the shaft when approaching impact. This overtaking (called "lead deflection") adds loft and also a small amount of face closure as well. Lower launch, lower spin shafts deflect less, higher launch/spin shafts deflect more, but only if you have a swing that loads then the same. Many people react to what the shaft does and compensate, sometimes purely subconsciously, and largely negate the differences between shafts. No component of a shaft will actually open the face of a club however.

    When a shaft is too flexible or too stiff, it becomes very hard for the golfer to have the club head in the same position at impact. You can have almost identical swings and have the club head be in totally different positions which is why it is important to find a flex that works well with your swing.

    One other thing, many people believe that the fastest part of the swing is at impact. It is not. It occurs about 1/3 of the way down and you are actually decelerating at impact which is why you have a lead deflection. They showed a great example of this during the Masters telecast with Brooks Koepka. And one of the reasons that he hits it farther than most is that he maintains his speed much further along in the downswing than most so that his deceleration number is smaller than others at impact.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
    MCC Align Midsize

2

Leave a Comment

Rich Text Editor. To edit a paragraph's style, hit tab to get to the paragraph menu. From there you will be able to pick one style. Nothing defaults to paragraph. An inline formatting menu will show up when you select text. Hit tab to get into that menu. Some elements, such as rich link embeds, images, loading indicators, and error messages may get inserted into the editor. You may navigate to these using the arrow keys inside of the editor and delete them with the delete or backspace key.