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How Do You Measure Performance in Pro Golf?


SkiSchoolPro

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Did Phil perform better in the 2013 Open where he was -3 for 72 holes, beating the average 72 hole field score (the 83 other players who made the cut and finished the tournament) by 12.54 shots or the 2016 Open where he was -17, beating the average of the other 80 players who finished the tournament by 21.73 shots?

Year PM's Score Par Field Ave* Diff (S-F) Top 8 Ave* Diff (S-T8) Finish OWGR Pts

2013 281 284 293.54 -12.54 285.29 -4.29 1 100

2016 267 284 288.73 -21.73 277.43 -10.43 2 60

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*Not including Phil's score

 

What's the best way to measure a golfer's performance to see if they are playing better or worse than in past events against different fields?

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If wins are the only measure, how do you compare 2 players who have never won, or only won minor events?

Do you think JAZZ JANEWATTANANOND performed better when he won the 2017 Mahasamutr Masters in a playoff against VARANYU RATTANAPHIBOONKIJ or when he finished t14 at last week's PGA? He's ranked #69 in the world, is this accurate?

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> @Ferguson said:

> > @SkiSchoolPro said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > height?

> > >

> > Funny...I guess I'm asking if there is a generally accepted definition for performance? If not, what's your definition of performance? Do results=performance or are they different things?

> >

>

> wins.

 

That was my first thought as well. But should Phil be praised more for an event where others collapsed or an event like the Open where he demolished the field-except for the one guy Stenson that did a bit better.

 

Performance can be measured by strokes gained but it is the rend result-as you noted-that really matters.

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Wins, then position. It is a competition against other players. Beat them all. Or measure how many of them you beat. You can't control who shows up to play, only if you are better than whoever shows up.

 

If I understand the Jazz Jaawanana.... comment correctly, you are essentially asking, "Did I play better when I shot an 80 from the tips on a windy day at Shinny or when I shot 70 at the local muni beer league last Friday?"

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Are you asking if his world ranking is accurate? It’s just a math equation- are you thinking there is a mathematical error in his calculation?

 

> @SkiSchoolPro said:

> If wins are the only measure, how do you compare 2 players who have never won, or only won minor events?

> Do you think JAZZ JANEWATTANANOND performed better when he won the 2017 Mahasamutr Masters in a playoff against VARANYU RATTANAPHIBOONKIJ or when he finished t14 at last week's PGA? He's ranked #69 in the world, is this accurate?

 

 

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Winning takes care of everything.

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Good job op on using the two hardest to spell names on earth for examples. My ocd Brain can’t even read past those names and remember what the point is. Lol

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Man that 2013 Open was a greuling, baked out slog for everyone. Other guys were coming up to Phil saying that they never thought his score was available out there Sunday. They were coming in mentally and physically exhausted.

 

I guess I can't answer your question, but to point out there are some things that don't translate to the stat sheet. 2013 Open wins out for me.

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Strength of field is often arbitrary and self fulfilling. Too hard to compare across events.

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Good thoughts so far. So, if you were given a grad school project to measure "performance" across all the Pro tours worldwide, how would you define performance and what would your system look like?

 

> @smashdn said:

> Wins, then position. It is a competition against other players. Beat them all. Or measure how many of them you beat. You can't control who shows up to play, only if you are better than whoever shows up.

>

> If I understand the Jazz Jaawanana.... comment correctly, you are essentially asking, "Did I play better when I shot an 80 from the tips on a windy day at Shinny or when I shot 70 at the local muni beer league last Friday?"

I like your analogy...I believe the Sagarin/Golf Week rankings rely a lot on head to head results without putting enough emphasis on winning. I.e. If you finish 2nd in a 154 man field, your record is 153-1 which isn't much worse than 1st, particularly if beat the guy who won elsewhere (even if it was a mid-field finish for both of you). That's why they have DJ ranked #1 and Brooks #11...Brooks has had a lot more outside top 25 finishes than DJ.

 

> @Golfjack said:

> Strength of field is often arbitrary and self fulfilling. Too hard to compare across events.

I agree SOF can be somewhat self-fulfilling. The fact that there are so many different tours makes it harder in many ways, however, the fact that some players play multiple tours does give some cross comparison possibilities. I remember reading about Jazz when he first came over to play a PGA Tour event...6 consecutive weeks of tournaments on different tours/countries/continents:

 

DEAN & DELUCA Invitational USA week 21 2017 MC - - - 227th

Thailand Open ASA week 20 2017 T6 2.42 - - 218th

Mountain Creek Open by GOLF CITIZEN MGT week 19 2017 10 - - - 226th

Mahasamutr Masters MGT week 18 2017 1 3.00 - - 220th

Yeangder Heritage ASA week 17 2017 T7 2.21 - - 230th

Panasonic OPEN ASA,JPN week 16 2017 T24 - - - 250th

 

> @golfandfishing said:

> Are you asking if his world ranking is accurate? It’s just a math equation- are you thinking there is a mathematical error in his calculation?

>

>

>

Sorry for using accurate. I am not saying that the OWGR miscalculated their own formula/algorithm in ranking Jazz #69, rather, I'm asking if your own formula/algorithm would result in a different ranking?

 

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“Sorry for using accurate. I am not saying that the OWGR miscalculated their own formula/algorithm in ranking Jazz #69, rather, I'm asking if your own formula/algorithm would result in a different ranking?”

 

Well, I had never heard of the guy before so if he had booked as the 4th on a golfnow hot rate and asked for 5 a side I probably would have agreed so I can’t say where I would have ranked him. But asking if he is the 69th best player on the planet versus asking if he is ranked 69 in the owgr are two different things. There have been occasions where the #1 ranked player in the world couldn’t even swing a club. He was ranked number 1, but was obviously not the best player on the planet at that specific time.

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> @BB28403 said:

> I was about to post a question similar to this.

> As in what are the differences in PGA players , Web.com, European Tour, McKinley tour, College .... all the way down to Scratch. Would love to see the data breakdown on those comparisons.

 

According to https://datagolf.ca/comparing-pro-tours/ the median web.com is 1.5 shots worse per round than median PGA pro, McKenzie -2.2, Latino America -2.5. A different analysis was done for Euro Tour, but it appears they may be just under a shot worse- http://datagolfblogs.ca/a-quick-look-at-differences-in-field-quality-on-the-us-and-european-tours/

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Either complete dominance of majors, only 11 players have beat second place by more than 8 or more shots in majors. Only a handful have done it multiple times(Tiger, Old and Young Tom Morris, Rory, JH Taylor), or the ability to grind through to win under pressure constantly. Occasionally some guys find a way to hold it together for 72 holes but too many hand the victory to the group, or the guy they're playing with, ahead of them after holding the 54 lead(roughly 1-in-3 win holding the 54 hole lead)

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> @SkiSchoolPro said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > I was about to post a question similar to this.

> > As in what are the differences in PGA players , Web.com, European Tour, McKinley tour, College .... all the way down to Scratch. Would love to see the data breakdown on those comparisons.

>

> According to https://datagolf.ca/comparing-pro-tours/ the median web.com is 1.5 shots worse per round than median PGA pro, McKenzie -2.2, Latino America -2.5. A different analysis was done for Euro Tour, but it appears they may be just under a shot worse- http://datagolfblogs.ca/a-quick-look-at-differences-in-field-quality-on-the-us-and-european-tours/

Thanks for the info!

 

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Professional golf is measured by wins, first and foremost. There are levels to your wins; majors, WGCs, Players, things like the Memorial or the API, then regular tour events, Euro Tour stuff (generally), rest of world. If somebody was to not have any wins, you then look at their finishing position in those events, in the order you find them the most important. For example, if somebody was to win some major Asian Tour event, but finished in the top 10 in all the majors that year, that Asian Tour event has much less merit on their overall performance in the game, for most.

 

I get the feeling you are trying to make things more complicated than they need to be. We have an established system in place for strength of field, if you want to make it as absolutely simple as possible, you take the best finishes with the highest strength of field events all over the world and use that as your barometer.

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> @MidwestGolfBum said:

> Professional golf is measured by wins, first and foremost. There are levels to your wins; majors, WGCs, Players, things like the Memorial or the API, then regular tour events, Euro Tour stuff (generally), rest of world. If somebody was to not have any wins, you then look at their finishing position in those events, in the order you find them the most important. For example, if somebody was to win some major Asian Tour event, but finished in the top 10 in all the majors that year, that Asian Tour event has much less merit on their overall performance in the game, for most.

>

> I get the feeling you are trying to make things more complicated than they need to be. We have an established system in place for strength of field, if you want to make it as absolutely simple as possible, you take the best finishes with the highest strength of field events all over the world and use that as your barometer.

 

You are probably right, but just because a system is established, doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement...

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/might-be-time-ditch-official-world-golf-ranking

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/is-there-a-better...owgr/ar-BBWfvon

 

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