Fitting question - Grease Board or Ball Flight? Or both?

 codylowrygolf ·  
codylowrygolfcodylowrygolf Members  362WRX Points: 98Handicap: 0.8Posts: 362 Greens
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I have always been fit to irons based on a grease board, tape or whatever and used the marks on the bottom of the club to get the right lie angle. I'm working with a fitter who wants to go solely based on ball flight. For example, if the ball is tugging a little left, we bend the clubs more flat. If they leak a little right, vise versa. No board/tape/pen used. Just divot and ball flight.

I've done this with my wedges and it really helped get me dialed, but I'm pretty hesitant to do it with the whole set. I'm in my comfort zone hitting all of them off a board and getting the mark in the sweet spot.

Anyone have opinions on this? I'd love to hear them!!

For reference, I'm a 2 HCP, mostly because I cant keep my driver on the course. Pretty solid iron/wedge player... if it helps.

Thanks!

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  • ddettsddetts Roy McAvoy Sioux Falls, SDClubWRX  1916WRX Points: 454Handicap: 7.3Posts: 1,916 ClubWRX
    Joined:  edited May 24, 2019 #2

    I would say as long as this is being done in conjunction with a launch monitor that shows impact conditions (club path, AoA, swing direction, etc) and where impact occurred on the face it is probably fine. Otherwise, how does the fitter know that the lie angle was the variable causing the shot to go left, right or straight?

    Disclaimer: I'm not a fitter, nor an expert on this subject.

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  24815WRX Points: 1,488Posts: 24,815 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 24, 2019 #3

    On -, @codylowrygolf said:

    I have always been fit to irons based on a grease board, tape or whatever and used the marks on the bottom of the club to get the right lie angle. I'm working with a fitter who wants to go solely based on ball flight. For example, if the ball is tugging a little left, we bend the clubs more flat. If they leak a little right, vise versa. No board/tape/pen used. Just divot and ball flight.

    Ball flight is always going to be King - but as far as checking the lie angles definitely forget the lie board, sole marks, and divots - all have too much influence from the interaction AFTER impact. This thread covers the best way to have the lie angles dynamically checked:

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1355102/open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/p1

    Posted:
  • codylowrygolfcodylowrygolf Members  362WRX Points: 98Handicap: 0.8Posts: 362 Greens
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    On -, @Stuart_G said:

    On -, @codylowrygolf said:

    I have always been fit to irons based on a grease board, tape or whatever and used the marks on the bottom of the club to get the right lie angle. I'm working with a fitter who wants to go solely based on ball flight. For example, if the ball is tugging a little left, we bend the clubs more flat. If they leak a little right, vise versa. No board/tape/pen used. Just divot and ball flight.

    Ball flight is always going to be King - but as far as checking the lie angles definitely forget the lie board, sole marks, and divots - all have too much influence from the interaction AFTER impact. This thread covers the best way to have the lie angles dynamically checked:

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1355102/open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/p1

    Thanks for that! I love the conviction. That is what I was hoping for. I will definitely check out that thread.

    My hesitation to the whole bit is, what if the day I get fitted, I'm pulling it a little. Then the next day, I have a little more of a fade swing?

    Maybe it's in that thread, like "fitting myths" or something, but that is what is holding me back.

    Thank you!

    Posted:
  • codylowrygolfcodylowrygolf Members  362WRX Points: 98Handicap: 0.8Posts: 362 Greens
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    Wow... that thread was short and sweet! Makes total sense. And here is where my head is at after a couple sips of coffee.

    • Lie angle determines direction.
    • Face direction (shut of close) will curve the ball.
      So weather or not I'm hitting a draw or fade that day doesn't really matter. It has more to do with direction. And the vertical lines made from the marked ball should be pretty close no matter what shape I hit.

    All that sound right? Or... Right'ish?

    Either way, that really helps make me feel better. Makes me want to go out today and mark all my range balls and see how things line up!!

    Thanks for the help!

    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  24815WRX Points: 1,488Posts: 24,815 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 24, 2019 #6

    IN GENERAL Inconsistent results don't usually mean inconsistent equipment fitting needs. The idea that it does is certainly a very common fitting myth or misconception.

    For lie angles specifically - Fitting lie angle is IMO more about making sure the lie angles themselves are not causing any problems - not about using lie angle to fix some other issue with your swing (path or face control). People are typically more consistent with their posture - and therefore lie angle needs - than they typically might think. So yes, what you see with the dry erase marker will not likely change all that much between those different shot shapes.

    On -, @codylowrygolf said:
    • Lie angle determines direction.
    • Face direction (shut of close) will curve the ball.
      So weather or not I'm hitting a draw or fade that day doesn't really matter. It has more to do with direction. And the vertical lines made from the marked ball should be pretty close no matter what shape I hit.

    All that sound right? Or... Right'ish?

    Not really. Face orientation/direction has the largest influence on the start line. Curvature is determined by the difference between the face orientation and the path of the club.

    Lie angle does have some influence on the start line (and curvature) but it's really not a lot. For someone who hits driver ~250 yard, when the lie angle is off 1* - that means only about a 2-3 yard lateral miss (doesn't matter if we're taking about a driver or wedge).

    So the lie angle fit is rarely going to the the actual true source of the inconsistencies or problems if some (even minor) effort is made to make sure they are a half way decent fit.

    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  10620WRX Points: 1,643Posts: 10,620 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 24, 2019 #7

    On -, @codylowrygolf said:

    Wow... that thread was short and sweet! Makes total sense. And here is where my head is at after a couple sips of coffee.
    • Lie angle determines direction.
    • Face direction (shut of close) will curve the ball.
      So weather or not I'm hitting a draw or fade that day doesn't really matter. It has more to do with direction. And the vertical lines made from the marked ball should be pretty close no matter what shape I hit.

    All that sound right? Or... Right'ish?

    Either way, that really helps make me feel better. Makes me want to go out today and mark all my range balls and see how things line up!!

    Thanks for the help!

    Start direction of the ball is caused by face angle and where face is pointing, while a lie angle to upright or too flat, might tilt the balls spin axis the other way and curve the ball back.

    Example when we want a draw.
    Club path at impact should be in to out, and face angle slightly closed vs path, but face angle vs target line is still open, so the ball would start moving out to the right.
    During the flight the tilt on the balls spin axis (caused by a face closed to path) will start pulling the ball back to target line.

    A face angle thats closed by 1* vs path, makes a tilt on the spin axis by 3*, and a lie angle thats 1 more upright that it should be cause the same 3* of tilt.

    Thats why ball flight can lie, its not always true, so to make sure our fade or draw is cause by face angle, NOT lie angles, we should do our best to get lie angles neutral at impact so we can hit a draw or fade on command by changing face to path.

    If your fitter insist of only looking at ball flight, and you normally play a draw, for all we know your face to path is ZERO (and should cause a PUSH), but you get the draw because lie angles is to upright and does the job face angle should, and thats NOT how it should be.

    When lie angle is set right, YOU will be in control of ball flight, not your clubs, they should be neutral and respond to your commands, so dont get fooled by ball flight, it might fool us if we dont know face to path.

    A lie angle thats off, will also move impact spot, on the heel to toe axis, so we can loose both ball speed and distance, and feel from a pured shot (we will have issues to pure a iron when lie angle is off), so make sure they are set neutral, THEN look at ball flight to get your wrist action timing right.

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  • codylowrygolfcodylowrygolf Members  362WRX Points: 98Handicap: 0.8Posts: 362 Greens
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    • "[...] we should do our best to get lie angles neutral at impact so we can hit a draw or fade on command by changing face to path."
    • "When lie angle is set right, YOU will be in control of ball flight, not your clubs, they should be neutral [...]"

    Thanks

    Those two sentences above sum it up for me. My fitter would be using a combo of flight and flight scope. That said, I loved the post about the sticker on the face, line on the ball, and measuring axis. That is where it is at for me. And my lie angles should be a common denominator and not adjusted based on a hunch. I'm down. And really appreciate all the feedback... from everyone!

    Posted:
  • Awainer1Awainer1 Members  932WRX Points: 107Posts: 932 Golden Tee
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    Just out of curiosity, what specs were you fit for in the past? As a 2 handicap you must have done some kind of fitting before.

    Posted:
  • JCAGJCAG John Curry Members  2179WRX Points: 168Posts: 2,179 Platinum Tees
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    Tweaking equipment to best fit the better golfer is fine. This is how it is done for the pro players then the specs are recorded for future reference. It was often done at the range with a bending machine right there. Each iron. Hit, tweak, hit, tweak, hit, happy, record the specs.
    That said, a degree or less does not matter for the less accomplished golfer.

    Posted:
  • codylowrygolfcodylowrygolf Members  362WRX Points: 98Handicap: 0.8Posts: 362 Greens
    Joined:  edited May 25, 2019 #11

    On -, @JCAG said:

    Tweaking equipment to best fit the better golfer is fine. This is how it is done for the pro players then the specs are recorded for future reference. It was often done at the range with a bending machine right there. Each iron. Hit, tweak, hit, tweak, hit, happy, record the specs.
    That said, a degree or less does not matter for the less accomplished golfer.

    Exactly this ^^^, but maybe a walk back to the lab instead of right there on the range :smile:

    On -, @Awainer1 said:

    Just out of curiosity, what specs were you fit for in the past? As a 2 handicap you must have done some kind of fitting before.

    Fair question...

    It's been a long time. But I would do exactly what

    On -, @JCAG said. Since about college, I would order a set with "standard" LLL (I'm 5'9" without any freakish features) and then I would work with a fitter to get them dialed. Adjust the lie (with a board) degree here, a degree there (or not), but pretty much standard. Then I would go through gaping session and get lofts right. Then write them down and check a couple times a year.

    That was AGES (and 4 kids) ago when I played a lot more golf. Now that I am pegging it up more than 5 times a year, I figured I would hit a reset button and get new stuff. And the whole crux of this thread was getting some feedback from the community here on this fitting process that was a little different then what I was used to.

    Posted:
  • Awainer1Awainer1 Members  932WRX Points: 107Posts: 932 Golden Tee
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    On -, @codylowrygolf said:

    On -, @JCAG said:

    Tweaking equipment to best fit the better golfer is fine. This is how it is done for the pro players then the specs are recorded for future reference. It was often done at the range with a bending machine right there. Each iron. Hit, tweak, hit, tweak, hit, happy, record the specs.
    That said, a degree or less does not matter for the less accomplished golfer.

    Exactly this ^^^, but maybe a walk back to the lab instead of right there on the range :smile:

    On -, @Awainer1 said:

    Just out of curiosity, what specs were you fit for in the past? As a 2 handicap you must have done some kind of fitting before.

    Fair question...

    It's been a long time. But I would do exactly what

    On -, @JCAG said. Since about college, I would order a set with "standard" LLL (I'm 5'9" without any freakish features) and then I would work with a fitter to get them dialed. Adjust the lie (with a board) degree here, a degree there (or not), but pretty much standard. Then I would go through gaping session and get lofts right. Then write them down and check a couple times a year.

    That was AGES (and 4 kids) ago when I played a lot more golf. Now that I am pegging it up more than 5 times a year, I figured I would hit a reset button and get new stuff. And the whole crux of this thread was getting some feedback from the community here on this fitting process that was a little different then what I was used to.

    Nice welcome hopefully we can motivate u to tee it up a little more often

    Posted:
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  24815WRX Points: 1,488Posts: 24,815 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @codylowrygolf said:

    It's been a long time. But I would do exactly what
    On -, @JCAG said. Since about college, I would order a set with "standard" LLL (I'm 5'9" without any freakish features) and then I would work with a fitter to get them dialed. Adjust the lie (with a board) degree here, a degree there (or not), but pretty much standard. Then I would go through gaping session and get lofts right. Then write them down and check a couple times a year.

    >

    That was AGES (and 4 kids) ago when I played a lot more golf. Now that I am pegging it up more than 5 times a year, I figured I would hit a reset button and get new stuff. And the whole crux of this thread was getting some feedback from the community here on this fitting process that was a little different then what I was used to.

    With the exception of the use of the lie board and the issues of that approach (already addressed), for the most part that was a good approach and hasn't changed all that much. The only other thing I'd suggest is to pay a lot more attention to shaft weight during the initial selection. There are a lot more options for iron shafts readily available now then their used to be and the off-the shelf, stock shafts (in many cases) are getting lighter and softer - even with steel shafts. So the stock offerings may be less than ideal for the stronger and better players. And getting the right shaft weight for your swing and your sense of rhythm and tempo can be critical for some people to help get the best and most consistent results.

    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  10620WRX Points: 1,643Posts: 10,620 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #14

    On -, @codylowrygolf said:
    • "[...] we should do our best to get lie angles neutral at impact so we can hit a draw or fade on command by changing face to path."
    • "When lie angle is set right, YOU will be in control of ball flight, not your clubs, they should be neutral [...]"

    Thanks

    Those two sentences above sum it up for me. My fitter would be using a combo of flight and flight scope. That said, I loved the post about the sticker on the face, line on the ball, and measuring axis. That is where it is at for me. And my lie angles should be a common denominator and not adjusted based on a hunch. I'm down. And really appreciate all the feedback... from everyone!

    The best way to make it right, is to combine the ball marker test with Trackman or Flightscope to make sure we have it right.

    1* to much upright makes a 3* tilt on the spin axis to the left (right hand player), and 2* makes a tilt of 6*, the same for face angle. 1* closed to path makes a tilt of 3*, and 2* closed to path makes tilt of 6*

    If the tilt is 9*, and face angle is only 2 closed to path, the last 3* off the tilt comes from a lie angle 1* more upright than it should be. If face angle is 2* closed to path and tilt is only 3*, the lie angles is 1* flat vs what it should be.

    This is NOT common knowledge, so dont expect your club fitter to know this, but this is how it works, so before i developed face labels to judge lie angle, i only used my Trackman and this math to get lie angles right, and as a last test, the ball marker test to confirm we got it right.

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

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