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Is a Urethane Ball Hurting Me?

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  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭

    I tried the trusofts this weekend at altitude along with the super hot. The trusoft seems to be a mix of the e6 and the super hot. One thing I noticed is it seems to launch higher on chips than even some other 2 piece balls. It feels less clicky than the super hot but not as muted as the e6. The e6 is shorter than both for me. One thing I have found is the tendency of 2 piece balls to be more susceptible to fliers on tweaner lies than 3 piece balls which can be an issue on the muni tracts I play. The trusoft had decent manners around the green. I will try it on Bermuda this weekend.

  • jeffrey rjeffrey r Members Posts: 2,071 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:
    I should have qualified that more strongly than saying "entirely possible". I was just trying to say "beware the Honeymoon Effect of any change".

    My advice would be to stick with the non-urethane balls long enough to really know what it's helping and what it's not. Which as you say can be hard to do when you have ten or twenty dozen Tour balls on the shelf (I know that problem very well)!

    All good. Don’t worry—this ain’t my first rodeo on this. I’ve played some very good rounds with urethane balls. I love the B330-RX and Z Star. But again, I know my game, and my course, etc. I am an enthusiast (hence, being on WRX), but I have a thousand commitments a week between work and my family, have no time to practice, little time for lessons, etc.

    I play once or twice a week on the weekend. I am a lefty with a natural fade, playing on a course with a lot of trouble on the left side. When I play these urethane balls, I am not hacking up the course, and often play a very nice round—but even a slight inclination to accentuate a fade, can put me OB or in real trouble. So, when I play a 2 piece surlyn ball, and I can see that my fade is more controlled, or that I am striping it down the middle, that is noticeable. And that’s what I was seeing this past weekend. I’ve had golf honeymoons before, so we shall see.

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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @jeffrey r said:

    @North Butte said:
    I should have qualified that more strongly than saying "entirely possible". I was just trying to say "beware the Honeymoon Effect of any change".

    My advice would be to stick with the non-urethane balls long enough to really know what it's helping and what it's not. Which as you say can be hard to do when you have ten or twenty dozen Tour balls on the shelf (I know that problem very well)!

    All good. Don’t worry—this ain’t my first rodeo on this. I’ve played some very good rounds with urethane balls. I love the B330-RX and Z Star. But again, I know my game, and my course, etc. I am an enthusiast (hence, being on WRX), but I have a thousand commitments a week between work and my family, have no time to practice, little time for lessons, etc.

    I play once or twice a week on the weekend. I am a lefty with a natural fade, playing on a course with a lot of trouble on the left side. When I play these urethane balls, I am not hacking up the course, and often play a very nice round—but even a slight inclination to accentuate a fade, can put me OB or in real trouble. So, when I play a 2 piece surlyn ball, and I can see that my fade is more controlled, or that I am striping it down the middle, that is noticeable. And that’s what I was seeing this past weekend. I’ve had golf honeymoons before, so we shall see.

    I play lefty but my nemesis shot is a block rather than a fade. Or maybe a block that tails off a little farther right.

    For two years I played a course that I really liked but every stinkin' bit of tee-shot trouble seemed to be on the left. It's one of those old-fashioned courses where much of the routing is anti-clockwise around the periphery of the property. Great for righty slicers but my left block or a righty with a hook have OB in the miss zone on nearly half the Par 4/5 holes.

    Anyway, my own tendency to push and pull the ball rather than cutting across it make me pretty immune to whatever small effect surlyn vs. urethane has on the curve of a mishit.

    “1lb beefstak, with
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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Just shot my best round in the last 20 with the INESIS Distance 100. This ball costs about US$0.50 per ball new, and has all of the worst characteristics you can imagine; two-piece surlyn (the cover even feels worse than say a SuperSoft or SoftFeel), higher compression, very little spin, and a clicking sound off the irons and when you putt. Still managed to hit 11 greens in 20+ mph winds and my short game up/down was within 1 up and down of the season average (technically, my round had a below average up and down but 1 more conversion would have pushed it above the season average).

    It's one random round so hard to conclude it's better or worse. But more evidence that for me it doesn't really matter much...

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  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭

    Tried the dt trusofts this weekend on bermuda. They were as good or better than the e12 soft, e6, or superhot. They feel especially good off the driver for me. They seems to have a little more roll on a consistent basis. I will stick with them awhile to see if I can dial in distances with the irons, full and less full shot release, etc. and short game. For me they are the best titleist value by far. First 27 holes I have had one bogey and 5 birdies with it.

  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I played a Project A that I found this past weekend. It was a bit softer feeling but compared to the surlyn balls but I still feel like it flew lower off the irons (which I don't like or at least I am not accustomed to). Around the greens, I've continued to find that a urethane's extra spin would be helpful on 20%-30% of the greenside shots in a round (sometimes more/less but most are in this range). I'm still not sure if the extra spin is better or worse on the other 70%-80% of greenside shots (part of this is I am accustomed to chipping/pitching with a 54 degree and haven't practiced enough to use a lower lofted club with a higher spinning ball).

    I may try the QST once my SuperSofts are gone. But if I don't find it particularly compelling after a couple of rounds I may just stick with the surlyns.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
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    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
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  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,376 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 27, 2019 11:57am #128

    @agolf1 said:
    I played a Project A that I found this past weekend. It was a bit softer feeling but compared to the surlyn balls but I still feel like it flew lower off the irons (which I don't like or at least I am not accustomed to). Around the greens, I've continued to find that a urethane's extra spin would be helpful on 20%-30% of the greenside shots in a round (sometimes more/less but most are in this range). I'm still not sure if the extra spin is better or worse on the other 70%-80% of greenside shots (part of this is I am accustomed to chipping/pitching with a 54 degree and haven't practiced enough to use a lower lofted club with a higher spinning ball).

    I may try the QST once my SuperSofts are gone. But if I don't find it particularly compelling after a couple of rounds I may just stick with the surlyns.

    You won't see much difference between the QST and the A. The Duo Pro is considerably softer and not as much spin as the A and QST. I am headed back down the Surlyn path once I get rid of my QST's. For every good shot the urethane produces, there is an equal amount of bad shots when it checks up early.

  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tanner25 said:

    @agolf1 said:
    I played a Project A that I found this past weekend. It was a bit softer feeling but compared to the surlyn balls but I still feel like it flew lower off the irons (which I don't like or at least I am not accustomed to). Around the greens, I've continued to find that a urethane's extra spin would be helpful on 20%-30% of the greenside shots in a round (sometimes more/less but most are in this range). I'm still not sure if the extra spin is better or worse on the other 70%-80% of greenside shots (part of this is I am accustomed to chipping/pitching with a 54 degree and haven't practiced enough to use a lower lofted club with a higher spinning ball).

    I may try the QST once my SuperSofts are gone. But if I don't find it particularly compelling after a couple of rounds I may just stick with the surlyns.

    You won't see much difference between the QST and the A. The Duo Pro is considerably softer and not as much spin as the A and QST. I am headed back down the Surlyn path once I get rid of my QST's. For every good shot the urethane produces, there is an equal amount of bad shots when it checks up early.

    Do you think the urethane is actually worse on the normal shots (the 70%-80% of greenside shots in my example above) where it may check-up too soon? Reason I'm asking is this is all whether you get the right contact or not. Getting the right contact is no easier with the surlyn ball. Unless one believes that the lower more rolling out shot is easier to execute? I'm not sure that it (surlyn, lower rolling shot) is any easier to get within kick-in range. For this to happen you need to both judge it correctly and hit it correctly.

    I kind of feel like maybe the surlyn ends up with less really bad shots when using a wedge (say inside 5 feet and outside 10 feet or whatever numbers you want to use), but one should be able to mitigate this by just using a lower lofted club. Then there is still an advantage the urethane may give you in the "need max spin" situations (20%-30% of greenside shots for me), which I'll admit isn't a huge conversion rate but a positive nonetheless.

    I guess it's a long way of asking are you switching back because you think the QST is actually worse or there's just no difference/benefit so just hit whatever is cheapest and most durable (even if these differences aren't large either)?

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  • arbeckarbeck SeattleMembers Posts: 484 ✭✭✭✭

    @Tanner25 said:
    You won't see much difference between the QST and the A. The Duo Pro is considerably softer and not as much spin as the A and QST. I am headed back down the Surlyn path once I get rid of my QST's. For every good shot the urethane produces, there is an equal amount of bad shots when it checks up early.

    According to the other sites test the Duo Urethane was actually firmer than the QST, and the Duo Pro was supposedly slightly firmer than the Duo Urethane. Wilson balls are not as soft as the advertise because they report the compression of the core, not the compression of the overall ball.

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  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭

    @Tanner25
    I was chipping and putting last evening for an hour with the dt's exclusively since I will try these alone for awhile after extensive comparisons between this ball and the e 12 sft, e6, and superhot. If you land this ball into the grain on bermuda it has some real grip. I actually had to pay attention to the grain on pitches more than I usually do. The balls launch a little higher on pitches so into the grain it works more effectively with my 52 deg wedge. The release of the surlyn cover though is pretty consistent and it is easy to get height when you want. I think I can score with this ball once I get more used to its behavior off my irons. That is what I like about the surlyn balls- they simplify short game choices.

  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,376 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @Tanner25 said:

    @agolf1 said:
    I played a Project A that I found this past weekend. It was a bit softer feeling but compared to the surlyn balls but I still feel like it flew lower off the irons (which I don't like or at least I am not accustomed to). Around the greens, I've continued to find that a urethane's extra spin would be helpful on 20%-30% of the greenside shots in a round (sometimes more/less but most are in this range). I'm still not sure if the extra spin is better or worse on the other 70%-80% of greenside shots (part of this is I am accustomed to chipping/pitching with a 54 degree and haven't practiced enough to use a lower lofted club with a higher spinning ball).

    I may try the QST once my SuperSofts are gone. But if I don't find it particularly compelling after a couple of rounds I may just stick with the surlyns.

    You won't see much difference between the QST and the A. The Duo Pro is considerably softer and not as much spin as the A and QST. I am headed back down the Surlyn path once I get rid of my QST's. For every good shot the urethane produces, there is an equal amount of bad shots when it checks up early.

    Do you think the urethane is actually worse on the normal shots (the 70%-80% of greenside shots in my example above) where it may check-up too soon? Reason I'm asking is this is all whether you get the right contact or not. Getting the right contact is no easier with the surlyn ball. Unless one believes that the lower more rolling out shot is easier to execute? I'm not sure that it (surlyn, lower rolling shot) is any easier to get within kick-in range. For this to happen you need to both judge it correctly and hit it correctly.

    I kind of feel like maybe the surlyn ends up with less really bad shots when using a wedge (say inside 5 feet and outside 10 feet or whatever numbers you want to use), but one should be able to mitigate this by just using a lower lofted club. Then there is still an advantage the urethane may give you in the "need max spin" situations (20%-30% of greenside shots for me), which I'll admit isn't a huge conversion rate but a positive nonetheless.

    I guess it's a long way of asking are you switching back because you think the QST is actually worse or there's just no difference/benefit so just hit whatever is cheapest and most durable (even if these differences aren't large either)?

    I think the latter. There's no difference/benefit either way. So, agreed why not go with the cheapest. But, with some feel. As an example, I would prefer a Srixon Soft Feel over a Duo Soft. Getting the compression right (feel) is important. I like a ball from 50-60 compression.

  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tanner25 said:

    @agolf1 said:

    @Tanner25 said:

    @agolf1 said:
    I played a Project A that I found this past weekend. It was a bit softer feeling but compared to the surlyn balls but I still feel like it flew lower off the irons (which I don't like or at least I am not accustomed to). Around the greens, I've continued to find that a urethane's extra spin would be helpful on 20%-30% of the greenside shots in a round (sometimes more/less but most are in this range). I'm still not sure if the extra spin is better or worse on the other 70%-80% of greenside shots (part of this is I am accustomed to chipping/pitching with a 54 degree and haven't practiced enough to use a lower lofted club with a higher spinning ball).

    I may try the QST once my SuperSofts are gone. But if I don't find it particularly compelling after a couple of rounds I may just stick with the surlyns.

    You won't see much difference between the QST and the A. The Duo Pro is considerably softer and not as much spin as the A and QST. I am headed back down the Surlyn path once I get rid of my QST's. For every good shot the urethane produces, there is an equal amount of bad shots when it checks up early.

    Do you think the urethane is actually worse on the normal shots (the 70%-80% of greenside shots in my example above) where it may check-up too soon? Reason I'm asking is this is all whether you get the right contact or not. Getting the right contact is no easier with the surlyn ball. Unless one believes that the lower more rolling out shot is easier to execute? I'm not sure that it (surlyn, lower rolling shot) is any easier to get within kick-in range. For this to happen you need to both judge it correctly and hit it correctly.

    I kind of feel like maybe the surlyn ends up with less really bad shots when using a wedge (say inside 5 feet and outside 10 feet or whatever numbers you want to use), but one should be able to mitigate this by just using a lower lofted club. Then there is still an advantage the urethane may give you in the "need max spin" situations (20%-30% of greenside shots for me), which I'll admit isn't a huge conversion rate but a positive nonetheless.

    I guess it's a long way of asking are you switching back because you think the QST is actually worse or there's just no difference/benefit so just hit whatever is cheapest and most durable (even if these differences aren't large either)?

    I think the latter. There's no difference/benefit either way. So, agreed why not go with the cheapest. But, with some feel. As an example, I would prefer a Srixon Soft Feel over a Duo Soft. Getting the compression right (feel) is important. I like a ball from 50-60 compression.

    Thanks for the thoughts. I definitely agree that the benefit (from a urethane around the greens) for me is very low (maybe a shot). And it might be zero or negative - I really don't know yet.

    I definitely like the feel and trajectory of the softer surlyn balls off the irons. But I don't think it's changing stopping power much (surlyn still marginally worse with shorter clubs, very close to a wash as the lofts get lower and the add'l height is a help) so could probably get accustomed to playing a lower flight if I thought there was a real benefit elsewhere.

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  • lchanglchang Members Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When playing in wind (especially into a headwind), is there an argument for or against surlyn vs urethane? Could surlyn have an advantage because of less backspin (and sidespin)?

  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @lchang said:
    When playing in wind (especially into a headwind), is there an argument for or against surlyn vs urethane? Could surlyn have an advantage because of less backspin (and sidespin)?

    I'm not sure. Unless the course is only running in one direction presumably you need to play the downwind holes too, where any advantage would flip.

    I tend to think the surlyns are a little more stable in the wind. But if using a higher spinning ball just take one more club and swing easy and you basically get the same thing. Contact is obviously the biggest thing in high winds.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    PING G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    PING Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Most of the popular low compression Surlyn balls are designed to fly as high as possible. So I think less spin can help in the wind but high trajectory might offset that advantage somewhat. Sort of a good news, bad news thing. But on balance it might help a little, depending on your particular swing.

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    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
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  • arbeckarbeck SeattleMembers Posts: 484 ✭✭✭✭

    @munichop said:
    @Tanner25
    I was chipping and putting last evening for an hour with the dt's exclusively since I will try these alone for awhile after extensive comparisons between this ball and the e 12 sft, e6, and superhot. If you land this ball into the grain on bermuda it has some real grip. I actually had to pay attention to the grain on pitches more than I usually do. The balls launch a little higher on pitches so into the grain it works more effectively with my 52 deg wedge. The release of the surlyn cover though is pretty consistent and it is easy to get height when you want. I think I can score with this ball once I get more used to its behavior off my irons. That is what I like about the surlyn balls- they simplify short game choices.

    This is something I don't really understand. I'm a 14 handicap and not a great short game player. But I can make a urethane ball run out with ease. I simply use a less lofted wedge (a 56* in my case), put the ball further back in my stance, and deloft the club with forward shaft lean. This doesn't impart much spin at all, and I haven't noticed much difference in the run out amount between a urethane and surlyn ball. This is my standard chipping technique for almost all situations and I rarely if ever see the urethane ball check up too much here. Though if I want a ton of run out, I just chip with a 8i or 9i or even break out the hybrid and putt with it.

    However, there are certain times where the best shot is a chip that is going to check. If you're short sided and the green runs away, playing with run out is going to be hard. Especially if you can't land the ball short to take off speed. You can land the ball and accept the run out and a very long putt, but if you want to get it close you either need to play the high flopper or try to spin your chip. I know from experience, that in my case at least, the high flop is a harder shot to pull off and the bad results from it (blading it, not carrying it far enough, carrying it too far) are worse than trying to spin a chip. To spin the chip, I just put the ball more in the middle of my stance, try to keep my shoulders level to promote a negative AoA and don't lean the shaft forward to keep the loft. I use my most lofted wedge and swing slightly faster than I normally would. At worst, it doesn't check and I get the same result as I would have playing a normal shot with roll out. At best I pull it off and it checks quickly. But I can't pull that shot off without a urethane ball.

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  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭

    @ Arbeck
    I don't know how much of this discussion you have read but the original question about urethane hurting describes what you detailed above. I gave long winded arguments for the benefits of surlyn around the green but maybe the best part has been knowing the limitations of the ball. Those who have the TIME necessary to practice the wider range of shots available to them with urethane can do so. What I believe is most don't have that time or won't devote the time necessary to do that and as a result the urethane misses on their short game hurt them more than the times its extras spin saves them. I challenged those with urethane to measure how many times the extra spin hurt them vs helped them around the green. I keep my up and down percentage stats and after switching to surlyn full time I have improved. I think others would too but most don't have the desire to measure things that closely. Yes, urethane balls give you more options and choices around greens, which is why I believe they hurt more than they help most players.

  • arbeckarbeck SeattleMembers Posts: 484 ✭✭✭✭

    @munichop said:
    @ Arbeck
    I don't know how much of this discussion you have read but the original question about urethane hurting describes what you detailed above. I gave long winded arguments for the benefits of surlyn around the green but maybe the best part has been knowing the limitations of the ball. Those who have the TIME necessary to practice the wider range of shots available to them with urethane can do so. What I believe is most don't have that time or won't devote the time necessary to do that and as a result the urethane misses on their short game hurt them more than the times its extras spin saves them. I challenged those with urethane to measure how many times the extra spin hurt them vs helped them around the green. I keep my up and down percentage stats and after switching to surlyn full time I have improved. I think others would too but most don't have the desire to measure things that closely. Yes, urethane balls give you more options and choices around greens, which is why I believe they hurt more than they help most players.

    If I play my standard chip shot, it doesn't spin with surlyn or urethane. So it doesn't really matter which ball I'm using for that. Urethane isn't magic and isn't going to start checking on chips unless you practice the specific technique to do so. The run out between it and surlyn will be about the same most of the time.

    But it will spin more off irons and wedges, which is good for most players.

    And if you NEED to try a spinning chip, you can.

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    TEE CB PROs 60*
    Scotty Cameron Squareback
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I think some people think that anything which has a benefit must therefore automatically entail some sort of downside or tradeoff.

    In this case it's expressed as the belief that since urethane balls spin more around the green, then for every player who benefits from the extra spin there must be one player for whom the extra spin messes up their short game.

    That's a fallacy. Sometimes better is simply better. Urethane balls are better at pretty much everything that a golf ball needs to do. Certainly in the short game, even if you don't benefit from the extra spin and (potential) control it isn't costing you anything.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
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    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @arbeck said:
    If I play my standard chip shot, it doesn't spin with surlyn or urethane. So it doesn't really matter which ball I'm using for that. Urethane isn't magic and isn't going to start checking on chips unless you practice the specific technique to do so. The run out between it and surlyn will be about the same most of the time.

    But it will spin more off irons and wedges, which is good for most players.

    And if you NEED to try a spinning chip, you can.

    I currently play surlyns and have contemplated switching to urethanes once my current supply is gone (tested some urethanes again briefly this summer). Right now, I am not accustomed to chipping/pitching with anything less than a 54 degree SW, so playing with the urethanes screwed me up a bit. However, my general thought is that if I switch permanently I will get start using less loft and my logic is basically the same as what you lay out above.

    I guess the only other things to consider are:
    a) could you get better playing just one shot with a surlyn vs. practicing multiple shots with urethanes? I don't know but I haven't dismissed it.
    b) you would lose the benefit of the urethane when you need to spin it but how much does this really matter? For me, I struggle to see how the added spin in need max spin scenarios adds more than a shot per round. Basically, I have 10-11 greenside opportunities per round and typically 2-3 of them I could benefit from more spin. But realistically, the conversion rate on these 2-3 tries is not going to be high (they are just hard freaking shots) so it really doesn't add much on average.

    So based on the above, my general thought is maybe it (urethane) is not worse but it's not really better either.

    I will add one last question that I ask myself. Everyone thinks they can control spin when they try to use it. However, when I look at my overall game and short game, both are very average (high single digit index and short game stats are entirely average for this skill level). So maybe I can't really control it consistently and should just play the most basic shot with one club as much as possible. Of course, I hit some shots to kick-in range but I also hit some not so difficult shots 10+ feet past (or short). I think we often tell ourselves "I can control it - look at the shot I hit to 2 feet and those others were just bad shots" vs. the one that ended up two feet away was random luck within the total range of outcomes I put up (which is not controlling it at an exceptionally high level).

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    PING G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    PING Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  PING Eye 2+ (58*) or PING Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭

    @agolf1
    Your points are the issues I am trying to highlight. Surlyn's biggest advantage is its limitations which means for me more repeatability on short game shots. Dave Pelz did a short game analysis years ago and found, regardless of skill level, the average distance from the hole when you miss the green is about 14 yards. So that is my primary practice shot. Sometimes I will have more green to work with other times less. Either ball will work for that shot. But the number of times you overspin a longer pitch shot with urethane vs having a surlyn ball release more consistently is where I think the advantage lies with me. It is a similar contrast between blades and cavity backs. Both are fine for the stock shots. The blades allow more variety of shot shape but you better hit them where you are supposed to. Cavities are more point and shoot. The cavity backs are better for most players because their misses are better. That is what I am trying to get across with surlyn. The misses around the green are better for me and as I have said before the scorecards and reduced number of bogies per round are proof.
    The other advantage for me is surlyns launch higher which helps me since I hit a low ball. And as you lose club head speed this is a bigger issue.

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    If a chip or pitch shot spins and checks when you didn't want it to, the problem isn't the ball. It's that you used too much loft and therefore too much clubhead speed. A 14-yard pitch shot with a sand wedge might check up no matter what ball you use. That same shot hit with an 8-iron will never check up, no matter your choice of ball.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • Golf4liferGolf4lifer Members Posts: 553 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @arbeck said:
    If I play my standard chip shot, it doesn't spin with surlyn or urethane. So it doesn't really matter which ball I'm using for that. Urethane isn't magic and isn't going to start checking on chips unless you practice the specific technique to do so. The run out between it and surlyn will be about the same most of the time.

    But it will spin more off irons and wedges, which is good for most players.

    And if you NEED to try a spinning chip, you can.

    I currently play surlyns and have contemplated switching to urethanes once my current supply is gone (tested some urethanes again briefly this summer). Right now, I am not accustomed to chipping/pitching with anything less than a 54 degree SW, so playing with the urethanes screwed me up a bit. However, my general thought is that if I switch permanently I will get start using less loft and my logic is basically the same as what you lay out above.

    I guess the only other things to consider are:
    a) could you get better playing just one shot with a surlyn vs. practicing multiple shots with urethanes? I don't know but I haven't dismissed it.
    b) you would lose the benefit of the urethane when you need to spin it but how much does this really matter? For me, I struggle to see how the added spin in need max spin scenarios adds more than a shot per round. Basically, I have 10-11 greenside opportunities per round and typically 2-3 of them I could benefit from more spin. But realistically, the conversion rate on these 2-3 tries is not going to be high (they are just hard freaking shots) so it really doesn't add much on average.

    So based on the above, my general thought is maybe it (urethane) is not worse but it's not really better either.

    I will add one last question that I ask myself. Everyone thinks they can control spin when they try to use it. However, when I look at my overall game and short game, both are very average (high single digit index and short game stats are entirely average for this skill level). So maybe I can't really control it consistently and should just play the most basic shot with one club as much as possible. Of course, I hit some shots to kick-in range but I also hit some not so difficult shots 10+ feet past (or short). I think we often tell ourselves "I can control it - look at the shot I hit to 2 feet and those others were just bad shots" vs. the one that ended up two feet away was random luck within the total range of outcomes I put up (which is not controlling it at an exceptionally high level).

    Do you feel like you have control when chipping with the surlyn ball? What happens when you have a lie or are short sided and cannot use your base shot?

    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Golf4lifer said:
    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

    Maybe we're talking at cross purposes here. Nothing about a urethane ball is going to hurt anyone in the long run. But a ball that will spin almost certainly will require some getting used to if you've only ever played balls that don't spin.

    So it'll be different. You won't be trusting it as comfortably those first few rounds as you would a ball like you're used to. But within a matter of a few rounds you'll start knowing how it's going to react.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭

    @ North Butte
    I agree with everything you have said about technique and club choice regarding greenside shots. But every variation takes TIME and practice to master which most guys don't have or won't invest. Given time a lot of players can figure out a 60 deg wedge too. My scores got better when I took that club out of the bag. I save par more than 70 percent of the time with surlyn balls using 2 wedges around the green for all my shots. I can do that with limited practice because the ball has limitations. And I believe most players would benefit from these limitations as I have. So while spin can be your friend for most players it can hurt them more than it helps.

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    But if you always play a urethane ball you don't need any variations. After a while you know what club will check up and what club won't. That's my main point.

    I play 90% of my short game shots with either 8-iron or 54-degree wedge. One lands and runs out, one checks up. I have a very rudimentary short game so I don't really have more than those two options and on some shots only one of them works.

    P.S. I'm really in trouble when the shot required is some sort of high lob wedge, big swing thing. No matter what ball!

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • Golf4liferGolf4lifer Members Posts: 553 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:

    @Golf4lifer said:
    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

    Maybe we're talking at cross purposes here. Nothing about a urethane ball is going to hurt anyone in the long run. But a ball that will spin almost certainly will require some getting used to if you've only ever played balls that don't spin.

    So it'll be different. You won't be trusting it as comfortably those first few rounds as you would a ball like you're used to. But within a matter of a few rounds you'll start knowing how it's going to react.

    I agree there is an adjustment period, but even during that time it did not hurt "my game" as much as I thought it would.

    Funny thing is practicing chips and pitches with a foam practice ball in my basement for 5-10 minutes when I had time improved my short game immensely.

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Golf4lifer said:

    @North Butte said:

    @Golf4lifer said:
    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

    Maybe we're talking at cross purposes here. Nothing about a urethane ball is going to hurt anyone in the long run. But a ball that will spin almost certainly will require some getting used to if you've only ever played balls that don't spin.

    So it'll be different. You won't be trusting it as comfortably those first few rounds as you would a ball like you're used to. But within a matter of a few rounds you'll start knowing how it's going to react.

    I agree there is an adjustment period, but even during that time it did not hurt "my game" as much as I thought it would.

    Funny thing is practicing chips and pitches with a foam practice ball in my basement for 5-10 minutes when I had time improved my short game immensely.

    I've finally turned the corner on my chipping/pitching yips and a big part of it was doing practice pitching strokes with one of those Orange Whip trainers.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • chippa13chippa13 Members Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Having a Bizarro week, Z Stars XVs were rolling out and Velocity's were dropping and stopping.

  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Golf4lifer said:
    Do you feel like you have control when chipping with the surlyn ball? What happens when you have a lie or are short sided and cannot use your base shot?

    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

    At my skill level, you only have so much control (of anything). Here's another way to ask the question - do I believe someone shooting mostly in the 80s can control anything real well? The answer is no. In someways, it's the same issue with double digit handicaps saying they can work their iron shots in 4 different ways (up, down, left, right). Sure, every now and then there is someone that can do it consistently. Most players at that level can't but a lot of them believe they can. And my short game isn't bad -- it's just nothing to brag about either.

    I have one higher lofted wedge (currently 57 but often 58 or 60 degrees) that I can use when you have less green to work with or a bad lie. I've also learned over the years that many times it's better to just hit it 10, 20, 30 feet whatever past the hole, try to two-putt, and accept that the bogey was the result of a bad iron shot.

    I don't think the urethane will hurt me much once I got accustomed to chipping/pitching with it and using less loft in certain situations (although munichop may be right). But I just don't think it adds much either (I laid out my numbers above). I've asked many people to quantify what the benefit is in strokes saved and very few "pro urethane" guys can actually do it (you may have been one of them). Everyone just tells the stories about the good rounds and shots that they pulled off, and then blames a low conversion rate on a "bad day" (it's all skill when it works and all bad luck when it doesn't, right?)

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    PING G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    PING Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  PING Eye 2+ (58*) or PING Eye 2 XG (60*)

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