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Is a Urethane Ball Hurting Me?

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  • Golf4liferGolf4lifer Members  609WRX Points: 136Posts: 609 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Aug 28, 2019 #152

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @Golf4lifer said:

    Do you feel like you have control when chipping with the surlyn ball? What happens when you have a lie or are short sided and cannot use your base shot?

    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

    At my skill level, you only have so much control (of anything). Here's another way to ask the question - do I believe someone shooting mostly in the 80s can control anything real well? The answer is no. In someways, it's the same issue with double digit handicaps saying they can work their iron shots in 4 different ways (up, down, left, right). Sure, every now and then there is someone that can do it consistently. Most players at that level can't but a lot of them believe they can. And my short game isn't bad -- it's just nothing to brag about either.

    I have one higher lofted wedge (currently 57 but often 58 or 60 degrees) that I can use when you have less green to work with or a bad lie. I've also learned over the years that many times it's better to just hit it 10, 20, 30 feet whatever past the hole, try to two-putt, and accept that the bogey was the result of a bad iron shot.

    I don't think the urethane will hurt me much once I got accustomed to chipping/pitching with it and using less loft in certain situations (although munichop may be right). But I just don't think it adds much either (I laid out my numbers above). I've asked many people to quantify what the benefit is in strokes saved and very few "pro urethane" guys can actually do it (you may have been one of them). Everyone just tells the stories about the good rounds and shots that they pulled off, and then blames a low conversion rate on a "bad day" (it's all skill when it works and all bad luck when it doesn't, right?)

    This is where we disagree. We are about the same level of golfer and I would say I have full control over my chips/pitches. Do I hit bad shots, of course, but who doesn’t? I will say this, I feel my misses with a urethane ball are not a severe around the greens.

    Now you want numbers to support that a urethane ball is better, but that is hard to quantify. Let’s take my last round last night (9 holes) as an example. I shot a 40 so +5 on this course. I hit 3 girs and 2 of those were par 3’s. On the other 6 holes I was on the fringe 3 times. I hit a tee shot ob for a double bogey, 1 in a bunker = bogey, and the other was in the rough (another bogey). On this hole I hit my chip to 4 feet that left me a very makable par putt, but I pulled the putt. Did the urethane ball help or hurt on this hole? If you look at the up and down stat, you would say it hurt because I missed the putt, but I’ll take that putt every time because it gives me a chance at par.

    I haven’t played much of late due to moving my daughter to college, but my two 18 hole rounds that are fresh in my mind I was 5 of 8 and 3 of 7 in up and downs. Did I miss due to a bad chip/pitch or a bad putt? I was say 90% was because of the putt and 10% because of my short game. Maybe I’m delusional but, my short game improved from practice and switching to a urethane ball.

    Posted:
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  • agolf1agolf1 Members  1986WRX Points: 1,147Posts: 1,986 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Golf4lifer said:

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @Golf4lifer said:

    Do you feel like you have control when chipping with the surlyn ball? What happens when you have a lie or are short sided and cannot use your base shot?

    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

    At my skill level, you only have so much control (of anything). Here's another way to ask the question - do I believe someone shooting mostly in the 80s can control anything real well? The answer is no. In someways, it's the same issue with double digit handicaps saying they can work their iron shots in 4 different ways (up, down, left, right). Sure, every now and then there is someone that can do it consistently. Most players at that level can't but a lot of them believe they can. And my short game isn't bad -- it's just nothing to brag about either.

    I have one higher lofted wedge (currently 57 but often 58 or 60 degrees) that I can use when you have less green to work with or a bad lie. I've also learned over the years that many times it's better to just hit it 10, 20, 30 feet whatever past the hole, try to two-putt, and accept that the bogey was the result of a bad iron shot.

    I don't think the urethane will hurt me much once I got accustomed to chipping/pitching with it and using less loft in certain situations (although munichop may be right). But I just don't think it adds much either (I laid out my numbers above). I've asked many people to quantify what the benefit is in strokes saved and very few "pro urethane" guys can actually do it (you may have been one of them). Everyone just tells the stories about the good rounds and shots that they pulled off, and then blames a low conversion rate on a "bad day" (it's all skill when it works and all bad luck when it doesn't, right?)

    This is where we disagree. We are about the same level of golfer and I would say I have full control over my chips/pitches. Do I hit bad shots, of course, but who doesn’t? I will say this, I feel my misses with a urethane ball are not a severe around the greens.

    Now you want numbers to support that a urethane ball is better, but that is hard to quantify. Let’s take my last round last night (9 holes) as an example. I shot a 40 so +5 on this course. I hit 3 girs and 2 of those were par 3’s. On the other 6 holes I was on the fringe 3 times. I hit a tee shot ob for a double bogey, 1 in a bunker = bogey, and the other was in the rough (another bogey). On this hole I hit my chip to 4 feet that left me a very makable par putt, but I pulled the putt. Did the urethane ball help or hurt on this hole? If you look at the up and down stat, you would say it hurt because I missed the putt, but I’ll take that putt every time because it gives me a chance at par.

    I haven’t played much of late due to moving my daughter to college, but my two 18 hole rounds that are fresh in my mind I was 5 of 8 and 3 of 7 in up and downs. Did I miss due to a bad chip/pitch or a bad putt? I was say 90% was because of the putt and 10% because of my short game. Maybe I’m delusional but, my short game improved from practice and switching to a urethane ball.

    Fair enough. I'd say your short game is probably better than mine so you may actually see more of the benefits. I don't average 8/15 over an extended period of time (I also don't include putts from the fringe as an up/down as long as the starting point was within a foot of the green - not sure what you are doing here but it's probably not the main issue). You are correct that the stats are hard to pin down in the short-run. But in the long-run they are fairly accurate. There's also the 15 footer for par that you make where you could have got there with a ProV1 or a range ball.

    I've assumed a can hold my up/down% the same as it is now on the basic shots (70%-80% of greenside opportunities) once I am familiar with using less loft. So no worse (which may be wrong). It's just that I don't see much benefit on average from the higher spin on the other 20%-30% of opportunities. Even at 50%, this is 1-1.5 shots per round, and there's no way it's 50% from these spots even with a better ball for me. One could respond with it's still a benefit though and maybe that's true.

    As I've mentioned, I will probably give the urethanes a decent try once my SuperSofts are gone. But I won't be surprised if I end up back with the surlyns.

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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members  11814WRX Points: 1,611Posts: 11,814 Titanium Tees
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    I've been reading over my last several posts in this thread. At some point I switched from making what I thought were a couple good points to sounding like a broken record and just nagging anyone who has a different point of view.

    Sorry guys. I'm not sure why I went all argumentative and repetitive. I'll try to do better in future.

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  • Golf4liferGolf4lifer Members  609WRX Points: 136Posts: 609 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Aug 29, 2019 #155

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @Golf4lifer said:

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @Golf4lifer said:

    Do you feel like you have control when chipping with the surlyn ball? What happens when you have a lie or are short sided and cannot use your base shot?

    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

    At my skill level, you only have so much control (of anything). Here's another way to ask the question - do I believe someone shooting mostly in the 80s can control anything real well? The answer is no. In someways, it's the same issue with double digit handicaps saying they can work their iron shots in 4 different ways (up, down, left, right). Sure, every now and then there is someone that can do it consistently. Most players at that level can't but a lot of them believe they can. And my short game isn't bad -- it's just nothing to brag about either.

    I have one higher lofted wedge (currently 57 but often 58 or 60 degrees) that I can use when you have less green to work with or a bad lie. I've also learned over the years that many times it's better to just hit it 10, 20, 30 feet whatever past the hole, try to two-putt, and accept that the bogey was the result of a bad iron shot.

    I don't think the urethane will hurt me much once I got accustomed to chipping/pitching with it and using less loft in certain situations (although munichop may be right). But I just don't think it adds much either (I laid out my numbers above). I've asked many people to quantify what the benefit is in strokes saved and very few "pro urethane" guys can actually do it (you may have been one of them). Everyone just tells the stories about the good rounds and shots that they pulled off, and then blames a low conversion rate on a "bad day" (it's all skill when it works and all bad luck when it doesn't, right?)

    This is where we disagree. We are about the same level of golfer and I would say I have full control over my chips/pitches. Do I hit bad shots, of course, but who doesn’t? I will say this, I feel my misses with a urethane ball are not a severe around the greens.

    Now you want numbers to support that a urethane ball is better, but that is hard to quantify. Let’s take my last round last night (9 holes) as an example. I shot a 40 so +5 on this course. I hit 3 girs and 2 of those were par 3’s. On the other 6 holes I was on the fringe 3 times. I hit a tee shot ob for a double bogey, 1 in a bunker = bogey, and the other was in the rough (another bogey). On this hole I hit my chip to 4 feet that left me a very makable par putt, but I pulled the putt. Did the urethane ball help or hurt on this hole? If you look at the up and down stat, you would say it hurt because I missed the putt, but I’ll take that putt every time because it gives me a chance at par.

    I haven’t played much of late due to moving my daughter to college, but my two 18 hole rounds that are fresh in my mind I was 5 of 8 and 3 of 7 in up and downs. Did I miss due to a bad chip/pitch or a bad putt? I was say 90% was because of the putt and 10% because of my short game. Maybe I’m delusional but, my short game improved from practice and switching to a urethane ball.

    Fair enough. I'd say your short game is probably better than mine so you may actually see more of the benefits. I don't average 8/15 over an extended period of time (I also don't include putts from the fringe as an up/down as long as the starting point was within a foot of the green - not sure what you are doing here but it's probably not the main issue). You are correct that the stats are hard to pin down in the short-run. But in the long-run they are fairly accurate. There's also the 15 footer for par that you make where you could have got there with a ProV1 or a range ball.

    I've assumed a can hold my up/down% the same as it is now on the basic shots (70%-80% of greenside opportunities) once I am familiar with using less loft. So no worse (which may be wrong). It's just that I don't see much benefit on average from the higher spin on the other 20%-30% of opportunities. Even at 50%, this is 1-1.5 shots per round, and there's no way it's 50% from these spots even with a better ball for me. One could respond with it's still a benefit though and maybe that's true.

    As I've mentioned, I will probably give the urethanes a decent try once my SuperSofts are gone. But I won't be surprised if I end up back with the surlyns.

    I don’t count my shots from the fringe in my up and downs as I am putting those the majority of the time. Maybe I should as it might improve that stat.

    If I were you I’d stick with what’s working for you. I wasn’t getting the results I wanting around the greens with a surlyn ball and that’s why I switched.

    Posted:
  • erock9174erock9174 North Canton, OHMembers  4185WRX Points: 255Handicap: 10.5Posts: 4,185 Titanium Tees
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    This thread is pretty timely for me.

    From when I took up golf until the end of 2017 I always gamed a surlyn ball. My rationale was that it was ‘straighter’ off the tee and higher launching and that in the other parts of my game I wasn’t good enough to warrant a urethane ball.
    In 2018, I felt my game was pretty consistent and trending upward (got to around a 12 cap) so I wanted to commit to a urethane ball and switched to the Chrome Soft. Often times I would hit a Supersoft and Superhot Bold and all 3 balls would have a similar flight and on similar strikes were within a yard or 2 of each other. I did feel that the urethane gave me better chipping control. There is always that slight bit of check that I could count on (not a high spin player) and seem to control decently.

    Switch to this year. Admittedly after the ‘Ball Test’ I got away from the Chrome Soft and have been trying other urethane balls. On bad driving days I was guilty of switching back to a surlyn ball. Probably just as a placebo effect that it will maybe fly higher and straighter… which I don’t believe they really do off the driver.
    Which brings me to my ‘ah-ha’ moment.

    I was playing Saturday morning and had a decent round going with a chance to shoot in the 70’s which is good for me (Avg an 84). Needed to par #18.
    From the fairway I hit my 135 yd approach with a beauty of a 9i; nice high and struck as well as I could. Pitch mark is 2” from the cup (up front) on an level green and the surlyn Supersoft I was playing rolled out 50’ to the back and I 3 putted the hole for an 80.

    I am convinced had that shot been with a urethane ball it either stops dead or rolls out maybe 5-10’ and I have a look at birdie. All I can think of is maybe it hit a small pebble or something causing it to lose spin but the ball did not appear to take any weird bounces and the pitch mark was pretty deep. My playing partner said, that has to be the worst beat I have ever seen……Thanks Bro

    So for me I will venture back into using urethane balls. Don’t get me wrong I think surlyn offers decent playability but simply put for a low spin/low launch player like myself I think the urethane is worth it to help with a bit of stopping power and chipping control.

    I know we all seemed to get off the OP’s subject here but it's worthwhile conversation.
    One thing I noticed is we haven’t really discussed everyone’s ball flight, spin rates, and descent angles. Some claim to stop balls with even low lofted irons and such.
    I can totally believe this. I have golfed with high swing speed guys (I only swing about 89-92 with driver) that hit their 4i higher than I seem to hit my PW. They can stop anything because their angle of decent is probably 50+ and spinning the crap out of the ball. To where my descent angle with a 6i is only 32 (off the deck). I have a better chance stopping a hybrid which averages about 38* for me. Just some food for thought that there are other factors to consider when choosing a ball.

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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members  11814WRX Points: 1,611Posts: 11,814 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @erock9174 said:

    One thing I noticed is we haven’t really discussed everyone’s ball flight, spin rates, and descent angles. Some claim to stop balls with even low lofted irons and such.
    I can totally believe this. I have golfed with high swing speed guys (I only swing about 89-92 with driver) that hit their 4i higher than I seem to hit my PW. They can stop anything because their angle of decent is probably 50+ and spinning the crap out of the ball. To where my descent angle with a 6i is only 32 (off the deck). I have a better chance stopping a hybrid which averages about 38* for me. Just some food for thought that there are other factors to consider when choosing a ball.

    There is also the fact that the irons most of us play nowadays have the hot faces which are designed to take a bit of spin off our iron shots. So for something like your bad-bounce 9-iron shot it might be a perfect storm. You have a low ballflight, you're using the G700 hot-faced irons and you were hitting a Surlyn ball. Just too much of a good thing.

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  • tsecortsecor Loading........ Members  4799WRX Points: 533Posts: 4,799 Titanium Tees
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    I am a believer the ball can help quite a bit in certain situations but play whatever ball works for you......if you are shooting mid 80's and above, who really cares about how low the ball comes off the club and how much it spins.....and all the other marketing crap you hear all day long...how do you score with X ball? that's all that really matters. When you start scoring below 80 and are really trying to reach that 75 and below range, maybe start analyzing the ball a bit more....but use what works for you. If its a $.50 ball, go for it.....
    I am a 10-13 HDCP depending on how much i play and i love the prov1 and use it a lot....BUT i used the much maligned chromesoft last year and played very well with it..... the only ball i cant seem to hit well is the TP5/TP5X.....when i mishit the TP5, it flies very far off course....its actually weird to see it act in this manner

    Posted:
  • sshadow2sshadow2 Members  1308WRX Points: 178Posts: 1,308 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 29, 2019 #159

    On -, @tsecor said:

    I am a believer the ball can help quite a bit in certain situations but play whatever ball works for you......if you are shooting mid 80's and above, who really cares about how low the ball comes off the club and how much it spins.....and all the other marketing crap you hear all day long...how do you score with X ball? that's all that really matters. When you start scoring below 80 and are really trying to reach that 75 and below range, maybe start analyzing the ball a bit more....but use what works for you. If its a $.50 ball, go for it.....

    You sound like someone who doesn't believe in high handicappers getting fitted for their equipment. I beg to differ. In getting fit, I have more optimal ball flight characteristics and can somewhat plan my approach shots better, and actually hit them more consistently. I typically play to 100 yds and gap wedge into the green. With my high ball flight, I can stop surlyn balls (e6 soft, supersoft, MT Tourney this season) to within 6' of the pitch mark on a level green. (With my Lob, I can stop within 2'-3') This is fine for me.

    Do I notice more check with a urethane ball? Absolutely. Its fun around the greens with one. But, for me, getting to the green can take longer. Straighter off the tee has been better for my game. Less stress.

    Different balls do different things for me at my level, and I can see it for myself. I care how the ball comes off my clubs, how much it spins, etc. I shoot generally in the upper 90s.

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  • arbeckarbeck SeattleMembers  697WRX Points: 388Handicap: 14.5Posts: 697 Golden Tee
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    On -, @North Butte said:

    There is also the fact that the irons most of us play nowadays have the hot faces which are designed to take a bit of spin off our iron shots. So for something like your bad-bounce 9-iron shot it might be a perfect storm. You have a low ballflight, you're using the G700 hot-faced irons and you were hitting a Surlyn ball. Just too much of a good thing.

    The hotness of a club face has next to zero effect on spin. Spin is almost entirely created by spin loft and speed. A 39* G700 and a 39* blade swung with the same delivery numbers are going to spin nearly the same. A little bit of spin can be generated by pulling the CG away from the face (that's why a driver with the CG forward spins less than one with the CG back). So you might even see a G700 spin MORE than a blade at the same loft.

    All that being said, most of us need as much spin as we can get. Most of us are swinging slower so we aren't generating as much spin. The lower ball speed makes the peak height lower which lowers our descent angle. And using lower lofted clubs only increases this. Combine that with the fact that almost everything that happens on the golf course takes spin (wet ball, rough, etc.) and almost nothing gives us more; and we need all the spin we can get to start with. If your 9i spins 5000RPM under ideal conditions and the rough knocks 500RPM off, that's far worse than losing 500RPM when you're spinning at 7000RPM. The higher your starting spin is (within reason) the more consistent your ball flight will be. That's why I would advise most amateurs to play the ball with the most spin they can stand the feel of. Very few off us really need spin reduction. The issue is that all things being equal, the harder the ball, the more spin you get. And the slower you swing the worse a firm ball tends to feel.

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  • erock9174erock9174 North Canton, OHMembers  4185WRX Points: 255Handicap: 10.5Posts: 4,185 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @North Butte said:

    On -, @erock9174 said:

    One thing I noticed is we haven’t really discussed everyone’s ball flight, spin rates, and descent angles. Some claim to stop balls with even low lofted irons and such.
    I can totally believe this. I have golfed with high swing speed guys (I only swing about 89-92 with driver) that hit their 4i higher than I seem to hit my PW. They can stop anything because their angle of decent is probably 50+ and spinning the crap out of the ball. To where my descent angle with a 6i is only 32 (off the deck). I have a better chance stopping a hybrid which averages about 38* for me. Just some food for thought that there are other factors to consider when choosing a ball.

    There is also the fact that the irons most of us play nowadays have the hot faces which are designed to take a bit of spin off our iron shots. So for something like your bad-bounce 9-iron shot it might be a perfect storm. You have a low ballflight, you're using the G700 hot-faced irons and you were hitting a Surlyn ball. Just too much of a good thing.

    In the sake of transparency the shot was with my old gamer 588 Altitude 9i which flies a little higher I think than my G700, but may actually spin less (at my fitting the G700 7i spun more than my Altitude 7i).
    Nonetheless I have had my fair share of OTT pull hooks that fly very low left and long and nothing is going to stop them if by some chance they catch part of the green.
    So I get where you are coming from.

    But as arbeck mentioned it may not be the design of the club causing the lowerish spin its probably more to do with the modern lofts of today's SGI/distance oriented clubs.
    So I guess really my 6i is more like a 5i and I have never had any business gaming a 5i as low as I hit them.

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  • agolf1agolf1 Members  1986WRX Points: 1,147Posts: 1,986 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @erock9174 said:

    I was playing Saturday morning and had a decent round going with a chance to shoot in the 70’s which is good for me (Avg an 84). Needed to par #18.
    From the fairway I hit my 135 yd approach with a beauty of a 9i; nice high and struck as well as I could. Pitch mark is 2” from the cup (up front) on an level green and the surlyn Supersoft I was playing rolled out 50’ to the back and I 3 putted the hole for an 80.

    I am convinced had that shot been with a urethane ball it either stops dead or rolls out maybe 5-10’ and I have a look at birdie. All I can think of is maybe it hit a small pebble or something causing it to lose spin but the ball did not appear to take any weird bounces and the pitch mark was pretty deep. My playing partner said, that has to be the worst beat I have ever seen……Thanks Bro

    One thing I noticed is we haven’t really discussed everyone’s ball flight, spin rates, and descent angles. Some claim to stop balls with even low lofted irons and such.
    I can totally believe this. I have golfed with high swing speed guys (I only swing about 89-92 with driver) that hit their 4i higher than I seem to hit my PW. They can stop anything because their angle of decent is probably 50+ and spinning the crap out of the ball. To where my descent angle with a 6i is only 32 (off the deck). I have a better chance stopping a hybrid which averages about 38* for me. Just some food for thought that there are other factors to consider when choosing a ball.

    Nice round and hopefully you can break the 80 mark again soon.

    I've "discussed" this with

    On -, @North Butte quite a bit before. As you note, I acknowledge that we all hit the ball different, but I really wonder how reasonable it is to say one ball rolls out 10 feet and another 50 feet under the same conditions (wind, green firmness, upslope/downslope on the green, strike, etc)? The difference in spin-rates on full iron shots that I've seen is often 500 - 1000 rpms between the urethane balls and the non-max distance surlyns. That's the difference in 1-2 clubs (i.e. do you think your 8-iron/7-iron with a urethane would have rolled out the same 50 feet?). Dean Snell has also said 1000 rpms with a wedge is like 5 feet. I'm not sure what the difference is with a lower lofted club.

    I don't swing a ton faster than you do (mid-90s with the driver) and also would probably have hit a 9-iron (40 degrees) from 135 yards if no wind. I do hit down on the ball a fair amount and I'd say that my flight is reasonably high for my swingspeed (there's only so high you can hit it at this speed). On full-swing 8-iron - SW, I'd say the urethanes are usually within ~6 feet of the pitch mark (often right on top of it), and the surlyns are within ~12 feet (often within 5 feet or so). For the 5-iron through 7-iron, I've found that the higher flight of the surlyns seems to keep the stopping distance fairly close. Although with these clubs there also seems to be more variance in the ball flight even on pretty good shots due to inherent strike differences.

    I play on fairly receptive greens (they can be fast but they do hold shots well), which of course could be part of it. But I have also played a lot where it is 100 degrees plus / bermuda greens that are rock hard in the summer, and I don't think the DIFFERENCE between the two balls is that much. I'm not disputing that your ball released 50 feet, but to think that a different ball would have kept it to 10 feet seems a bit like the argument that the surlyn will keep you out of the trees while the urethanes won't off the tee. There's a marginal difference there (probably even smaller than what we are talking about) but that big of an end result doesn't seem to be justified based on how the balls behave in a controlled environment.

    I'm all for playing the urethane but I struggle to see this type of difference on full shots with the same strike and same conditions.

    Posted:
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    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    PING G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    PING Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  PING Eye 2+ (58*) or PING Eye 2 XG (60*)
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  • deepreddeepred Members  356WRX Points: 104Handicap: 12Posts: 356 Greens
    Joined:  #163

    A well struck 9i rolled 50’? That’s a lot of roll for a 70’s TopFlight hit with a 4iron. Did any other irons roll like that?

    Posted:
    Cleveland Classic XL Driver
    KE4 5 wood 17* 43”
    Maltby MXU 23* 
    Maltby Tricept TU 5 Iron
    Wilson Pi5 6-PW
    Wilson JP 55* SW
    Ram Watson Troon Grind 58
    Ray Cook M2 Mallet
  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members  6706WRX Points: 321Posts: 6,706 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 30, 2019 #164

    I can't believe one scores that differently between surlyn and urethane. I think there's other real factors that come into play, cost and feel. For me, that's the bottom line. As said, above, slow and fast swingers both feel (need) different balls.

    Posted:
  • erock9174erock9174 North Canton, OHMembers  4185WRX Points: 255Handicap: 10.5Posts: 4,185 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #165

    On -, @deepred said:

    A well struck 9i rolled 50’? That’s a lot of roll for a 70’s TopFlight hit with a 4iron. Did any other irons roll like that?

    No issues that day other than that last hole. My playing partner who played college golf looked at me and said that’s the worst beat he’s ever seen on the course. All I can figure is it hit a tiny stone or something.

    Posted:

    Cobra Speedzone Xtreme 

    Callaway Epic Flash 7w

    Exotics Xrail  4h | 5h

    Cobra  T-Rail 6-SW

    Cleveland CBX 60* 

    Callaway Sure Out 64*

    Exotics Wingman 01

    Titleist ProV1x Yellow

    Handicap: 9.2


  • agolf1agolf1 Members  1986WRX Points: 1,147Posts: 1,986 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #166

    On -, @erock9174 said:

    On -, @deepred said:

    A well struck 9i rolled 50’? That’s a lot of roll for a 70’s TopFlight hit with a 4iron. Did any other irons roll like that?

    No issues that day other than that last hole. My playing partner who played college golf looked at me and said that’s the worst beat he’s ever seen on the course. All I can figure is it hit a tiny stone or something.

    Seems like a bad break at the wrong time. But if this was the case (tiny stone), how would the urethane have stopped dead or only rolled out 5-10 feet?

    Posted:
    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    PING G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    PING Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  PING Eye 2+ (58*) or PING Eye 2 XG (60*)
  • nlinneman20nlinneman20 Saint LouisMembers  326WRX Points: 91Handicap: 12Posts: 326 Greens
    Joined:  #167

    On -, @Golf4lifer said:

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @Golf4lifer said:

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @Golf4lifer said:

    Do you feel like you have control when chipping with the surlyn ball? What happens when you have a lie or are short sided and cannot use your base shot?

    The urethane ball is truly not going to hurt you as much as you think.

    At my skill level, you only have so much control (of anything). Here's another way to ask the question - do I believe someone shooting mostly in the 80s can control anything real well? The answer is no. In someways, it's the same issue with double digit handicaps saying they can work their iron shots in 4 different ways (up, down, left, right). Sure, every now and then there is someone that can do it consistently. Most players at that level can't but a lot of them believe they can. And my short game isn't bad -- it's just nothing to brag about either.

    I have one higher lofted wedge (currently 57 but often 58 or 60 degrees) that I can use when you have less green to work with or a bad lie. I've also learned over the years that many times it's better to just hit it 10, 20, 30 feet whatever past the hole, try to two-putt, and accept that the bogey was the result of a bad iron shot.

    I don't think the urethane will hurt me much once I got accustomed to chipping/pitching with it and using less loft in certain situations (although munichop may be right). But I just don't think it adds much either (I laid out my numbers above). I've asked many people to quantify what the benefit is in strokes saved and very few "pro urethane" guys can actually do it (you may have been one of them). Everyone just tells the stories about the good rounds and shots that they pulled off, and then blames a low conversion rate on a "bad day" (it's all skill when it works and all bad luck when it doesn't, right?)

    This is where we disagree. We are about the same level of golfer and I would say I have full control over my chips/pitches. Do I hit bad shots, of course, but who doesn’t? I will say this, I feel my misses with a urethane ball are not a severe around the greens.

    Now you want numbers to support that a urethane ball is better, but that is hard to quantify. Let’s take my last round last night (9 holes) as an example. I shot a 40 so +5 on this course. I hit 3 girs and 2 of those were par 3’s. On the other 6 holes I was on the fringe 3 times. I hit a tee shot ob for a double bogey, 1 in a bunker = bogey, and the other was in the rough (another bogey). On this hole I hit my chip to 4 feet that left me a very makable par putt, but I pulled the putt. Did the urethane ball help or hurt on this hole? If you look at the up and down stat, you would say it hurt because I missed the putt, but I’ll take that putt every time because it gives me a chance at par.

    I haven’t played much of late due to moving my daughter to college, but my two 18 hole rounds that are fresh in my mind I was 5 of 8 and 3 of 7 in up and downs. Did I miss due to a bad chip/pitch or a bad putt? I was say 90% was because of the putt and 10% because of my short game. Maybe I’m delusional but, my short game improved from practice and switching to a urethane ball.

    Fair enough. I'd say your short game is probably better than mine so you may actually see more of the benefits. I don't average 8/15 over an extended period of time (I also don't include putts from the fringe as an up/down as long as the starting point was within a foot of the green - not sure what you are doing here but it's probably not the main issue). You are correct that the stats are hard to pin down in the short-run. But in the long-run they are fairly accurate. There's also the 15 footer for par that you make where you could have got there with a ProV1 or a range ball.

    I've assumed a can hold my up/down% the same as it is now on the basic shots (70%-80% of greenside opportunities) once I am familiar with using less loft. So no worse (which may be wrong). It's just that I don't see much benefit on average from the higher spin on the other 20%-30% of opportunities. Even at 50%, this is 1-1.5 shots per round, and there's no way it's 50% from these spots even with a better ball for me. One could respond with it's still a benefit though and maybe that's true.

    As I've mentioned, I will probably give the urethanes a decent try once my SuperSofts are gone. But I won't be surprised if I end up back with the surlyns.

    I don’t count my shots from the fringe in my up and downs as I am putting those the majority of the time. Maybe I should as it might improve that stat.

    If I were you I’d stick with what’s working for you. I wasn’t getting the results I wanting around the greens with a surlyn ball and that’s why I switched.

    I think you should, anything your putting off the green isn't considered a putt. So if you putt from the 1st cut, knock it close and putt it in, its considered a 'chip' and a 1 putt i believe as you could have just as easily chipped it from the 1st cut.

    Posted:
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  • lenman73lenman73 Members  876WRX Points: 201Posts: 876 Golden Tee
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    I think their are too many variables to make an absolute statement on what's better. Feel, personal ball flight, geographic location (constant dried baked out greens), funds available for balls, practice time etc.

    My playing partner only buys 2 piece balls and never practices. It is what it is for him. I usually see him chip through a green at least 3 times a round. I am a midcap that loves to practice the short game. And I take into consideration what course I'm playing as to what ball I will put into play. If it's a course near my house that opened in the 70's then a non urethane ball will work fine. And from a good lie, I can spin chips just fine onto these greens. Most of the newer courses around here have firmer conditions and then I use a tour ball. I can get away with this in southwest michigan, I do not know what conditions in Arizona would be like or playing at elevation.

    As I said , i think there is just too much to consider to be firm in saying one is better than the other period. If I only played one course near me, i would never need a tour ball, if I played the other one four miles away, I would never play a nontour. You gotta do you and figure out what is best in your situation.

    Posted:
  • Twism86Twism86 Members  543WRX Points: 124Posts: 543 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #169

    Wanted to come back to my thread to update my current playing situation. Last week I shot the best round of life and first time breaking 90 with an 84. Played the Callaway Superhot Bold in red that I really like. My iron game was on! A few of my iron shots to the greens stuck and few rolled too far but I think that is a trajectory thing over surlyn vs urethane.

    Anyway, I was playing the other night with a TP5 (urethane obviously) and had a bunker shot that for the first time I could ever tell really checked up on me! Hard, wet bunker sand so you really had to clip it off the surface and not skull F it. I was down deep 6-7' with a close pin. I needed a high and spinning shot to even get close. Hit it perfect, landed right at the pin and one hop checked to a few feet and I made birdie. I really doubt I would get the same effect from my surlyn balls....... My iron striking has been improving so I think a change may be in order.

    Posted:
    TM AeroBurner 9.5*
    TM SpeedBlades 4-PW
    Odyssey White Hot RX #1
    A bunch of random wedges
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members  11814WRX Points: 1,611Posts: 11,814 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #170

    On -, @Twism86 said:

    Wanted to come back to my thread to update my current playing situation. Last week I shot the best round of life and first time breaking 90 with an 84. Played the Callaway Superhot Bold in red that I really like. My iron game was on! A few of my iron shots to the greens stuck and few rolled too far but I think that is a trajectory thing over surlyn vs urethane.

    Anyway, I was playing the other night with a TP5 (urethane obviously) and had a bunker shot that for the first time I could ever tell really checked up on me! Hard, wet bunker sand so you really had to clip it off the surface and not skull F it. I was down deep 6-7' with a close pin. I needed a high and spinning shot to even get close. Hit it perfect, landed right at the pin and one hop checked to a few feet and I made birdie. I really doubt I would get the same effect from my surlyn balls....... My iron striking has been improving so I think a change may be in order.

    I had a shot like that last weekend and I thought about this thread. Damp packed sand, green was tilted away from me big-time so no way to stop a ball coming out of the bunker. Pond on the other side of the green.

    I hit the bunker shot perfectly and it landed a few feet short of the hole with a little bit of spin. No magic, it didn't stop where it landed on the downslope! It still rolled a good ten feet down the hill past the hole but oh boy, with a Surlyn ball no way that stops before it runs all the way off the green.

    For me, shots like that only come up once every round or two. But when they do it makes me happy to have that extra spin. Spin can help even if you're not "sucking back" shots like Greg Norman in his prime.

    P.S. Nice 84. That's the way to break through into the 80's in style!

    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • Twism86Twism86 Members  543WRX Points: 124Posts: 543 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #171

    On -, @North Butte said:

    P.S. Nice 84. That's the way to break through into the 80's in style!

    Thanks!!

    Posted:
    TM AeroBurner 9.5*
    TM SpeedBlades 4-PW
    Odyssey White Hot RX #1
    A bunch of random wedges
  • LumpyPocketsLumpyPockets Members  52WRX Points: 53Posts: 52 Bunkers
    Joined:  #172

    I saw a pretty detailed ball review at the PXG testing center put on by another site. The ad333 spun more than all the urethane balls except one. There's not much difference anymore for full wedge shots between urethane and that two piece ball. Maybe short pitches/chips. Not sure if the two piece srixon has a urethane cover though. It was a yard or so shorter than the tour balls.

    Posted:
    In the Sun Mountain Three.Five aka The Bag of Shame:

    Epic Flash 10.5
    HiBore XLS 2 Wood
    Epic 5w -1*
    Cleveland Launcher HB 4-S
    O Works #7
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members  11814WRX Points: 1,611Posts: 11,814 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 25, 2019 #173

    If the AD333 spins as much as a TP5/ProV1/Chrome Soft/K3/B330 urethane ball then there have been some pretty unprecedented changes since I last played AD333 several years ago. The original (2012?) and at least one subsequent version (2014 or 2015?) AD333 were just medium-compression 2pc Surlyn balls that performed exactly as expected for that type. Cheap and cheerful distance ball.

    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • LumpyPocketsLumpyPockets Members  52WRX Points: 53Posts: 52 Bunkers
    Joined:  #174
    Posted:
    In the Sun Mountain Three.Five aka The Bag of Shame:

    Epic Flash 10.5
    HiBore XLS 2 Wood
    Epic 5w -1*
    Cleveland Launcher HB 4-S
    O Works #7
  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers  13915WRX Points: 1,485Handicap: 8-ishPosts: 13,915 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #175

    On -, @North Butte said:

    Some of the low compression balls like Supersoft or Duo are designed to fly as high as it's possible to make a ball fly. The dimples are configured so for a given amount of spin they go much, much higher than a Pro V1 would with the same spin. In fact, the ProV1 and some other urethane balls are specifically designed for a "controlled" or "boring" trajectory, meaning the designers take extra pains to keep the trajectory down because they do spin a lot.

    The guys who buy a Supersoft want it to feel/sound as soft as possible and they want to see the ball fly high and hang in the air a long time. Also the highest possible trajectory helps a low-spin ball still stop quickly due to steep descent. Those guys are not looking to control their trajectory or play low spinning shots.

    So it's not about "ballooning" due to high spin like you might worry about with some urethane balls (K3 for instance). It's just a ball designed to fly really high and if the wind affects it, so be it.

    Correct, the problem with the SS, from my experience is that they launch high around the greens as well. Sometimes I chip them close, sometimes I feel like I catch a flier.
    A ProV type of ball will spin about the same as most with the driver, more with a wedge. It's the best of both worlds. the only think I like more about a SS is the feel with modern irons, and it's easier to hit high soft irons and FW's.

    Posted:
    I pick 14 of the following:
    Ping G400
    Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood
    Callaway Apex 23*
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, 58 SS
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Hoofer
    ProV1x-mostly
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • storm319storm319 USMembers  4386WRX Points: 540Posts: 4,386 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #176

    On -, @LumpyPockets said:

    I saw a pretty detailed ball review at the PXG testing center put on by another site. The ad333 spun more than all the urethane balls except one. There's not much difference anymore for full wedge shots between urethane and that two piece ball. Maybe short pitches/chips. Not sure if the two piece srixon has a urethane cover though. It was a yard or so shorter than the tour balls.

    The AD333 (aka QStar in North America) has an ionomer cover.

    The problem with these test results is that the wedge spin test was a moderate full swing with the ball tee’d up and given the slightly low overall spin numbers my guess is that the robot was setup for a relatively shallow angle of attack. The point is that the results could be very different under a different set of swing variables (partial swing, steeper angle of attack, non-clean/wet lie, etc).

    Posted:
  • agolf1agolf1 Members  1986WRX Points: 1,147Posts: 1,986 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #177

    On -, @North Butte said:

    On -, @Twism86 said:

    Wanted to come back to my thread to update my current playing situation. Last week I shot the best round of life and first time breaking 90 with an 84. Played the Callaway Superhot Bold in red that I really like. My iron game was on! A few of my iron shots to the greens stuck and few rolled too far but I think that is a trajectory thing over surlyn vs urethane.

    Anyway, I was playing the other night with a TP5 (urethane obviously) and had a bunker shot that for the first time I could ever tell really checked up on me! Hard, wet bunker sand so you really had to clip it off the surface and not skull F it. I was down deep 6-7' with a close pin. I needed a high and spinning shot to even get close. Hit it perfect, landed right at the pin and one hop checked to a few feet and I made birdie. I really doubt I would get the same effect from my surlyn balls....... My iron striking has been improving so I think a change may be in order.

    I had a shot like that last weekend and I thought about this thread. Damp packed sand, green was tilted away from me big-time so no way to stop a ball coming out of the bunker. Pond on the other side of the green.

    I hit the bunker shot perfectly and it landed a few feet short of the hole with a little bit of spin. No magic, it didn't stop where it landed on the downslope! It still rolled a good ten feet down the hill past the hole but oh boy, with a Surlyn ball no way that stops before it runs all the way off the green.

    For me, shots like that only come up once every round or two. But when they do it makes me happy to have that extra spin. Spin can help even if you're not "sucking back" shots like Greg Norman in his prime.

    P.S. Nice 84. That's the way to break through into the 80's in style!

    Is there really a big difference in spin on bunker shots? I always thought this (amount of spin) was mainly how close you cut to the ball (along with sand type, how the ball is sitting, etc). I mean the ball isn't even on the face at all most of the time. I'm obviously ok playing surlyn balls and acknowledge the noticable difference on partial wedges, pitches, etc but not so much on a greenside splash.

    Posted:
    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Titleist 915F 16.5* & 21.0*, Diamana S+ Blue 70 S-Flex
    PING G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    PING Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    PING Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
    Backup Lob Wedges:  PING Eye 2+ (58*) or PING Eye 2 XG (60*)
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  • arbeckarbeck SeattleMembers  697WRX Points: 388Handicap: 14.5Posts: 697 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #178

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @North Butte said:

    On -, @Twism86 said:

    Wanted to come back to my thread to update my current playing situation. Last week I shot the best round of life and first time breaking 90 with an 84. Played the Callaway Superhot Bold in red that I really like. My iron game was on! A few of my iron shots to the greens stuck and few rolled too far but I think that is a trajectory thing over surlyn vs urethane.

    Anyway, I was playing the other night with a TP5 (urethane obviously) and had a bunker shot that for the first time I could ever tell really checked up on me! Hard, wet bunker sand so you really had to clip it off the surface and not skull F it. I was down deep 6-7' with a close pin. I needed a high and spinning shot to even get close. Hit it perfect, landed right at the pin and one hop checked to a few feet and I made birdie. I really doubt I would get the same effect from my surlyn balls....... My iron striking has been improving so I think a change may be in order.

    I had a shot like that last weekend and I thought about this thread. Damp packed sand, green was tilted away from me big-time so no way to stop a ball coming out of the bunker. Pond on the other side of the green.

    I hit the bunker shot perfectly and it landed a few feet short of the hole with a little bit of spin. No magic, it didn't stop where it landed on the downslope! It still rolled a good ten feet down the hill past the hole but oh boy, with a Surlyn ball no way that stops before it runs all the way off the green.

    For me, shots like that only come up once every round or two. But when they do it makes me happy to have that extra spin. Spin can help even if you're not "sucking back" shots like Greg Norman in his prime.

    P.S. Nice 84. That's the way to break through into the 80's in style!

    Is there really a big difference in spin on bunker shots? I always thought this (amount of spin) was mainly how close you cut to the ball (along with sand type, how the ball is sitting, etc). I mean the ball isn't even on the face at all most of the time. I'm obviously ok playing surlyn balls and acknowledge the noticable difference on partial wedges, pitches, etc but not so much on a greenside splash.

    Spin is mostly caused by friction. Even in sand the friction of the club/sand against the ball is what causes backspin. A urethane ball has a softer cover and a harder mantle underneath, this allows the cover to deform and create more friction and more spin. The surlyn cover won't deform and won't generate the same amount of spin.

    Posted:
    Ping Traverse
    King Cobra F7 10.5* w/ Mitsubishi Tensi CK Blue 60 set at 9.5*
    TEE E8 4W, 7W
    Ping G410 4H
    Mizuno JPX-900 Hot Metal 5-SW w/ Veylix Alpina 873
    TEE CB PROs 60*
    Scotty Cameron Squareback
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members  11814WRX Points: 1,611Posts: 11,814 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #179

    On -, @arbeck said:

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @North Butte said:

    On -, @Twism86 said:

    Wanted to come back to my thread to update my current playing situation. Last week I shot the best round of life and first time breaking 90 with an 84. Played the Callaway Superhot Bold in red that I really like. My iron game was on! A few of my iron shots to the greens stuck and few rolled too far but I think that is a trajectory thing over surlyn vs urethane.

    Anyway, I was playing the other night with a TP5 (urethane obviously) and had a bunker shot that for the first time I could ever tell really checked up on me! Hard, wet bunker sand so you really had to clip it off the surface and not skull F it. I was down deep 6-7' with a close pin. I needed a high and spinning shot to even get close. Hit it perfect, landed right at the pin and one hop checked to a few feet and I made birdie. I really doubt I would get the same effect from my surlyn balls....... My iron striking has been improving so I think a change may be in order.

    I had a shot like that last weekend and I thought about this thread. Damp packed sand, green was tilted away from me big-time so no way to stop a ball coming out of the bunker. Pond on the other side of the green.

    I hit the bunker shot perfectly and it landed a few feet short of the hole with a little bit of spin. No magic, it didn't stop where it landed on the downslope! It still rolled a good ten feet down the hill past the hole but oh boy, with a Surlyn ball no way that stops before it runs all the way off the green.

    For me, shots like that only come up once every round or two. But when they do it makes me happy to have that extra spin. Spin can help even if you're not "sucking back" shots like Greg Norman in his prime.

    P.S. Nice 84. That's the way to break through into the 80's in style!

    Is there really a big difference in spin on bunker shots? I always thought this (amount of spin) was mainly how close you cut to the ball (along with sand type, how the ball is sitting, etc). I mean the ball isn't even on the face at all most of the time. I'm obviously ok playing surlyn balls and acknowledge the noticable difference on partial wedges, pitches, etc but not so much on a greenside splash.

    Spin is mostly caused by friction. Even in sand the friction of the club/sand against the ball is what causes backspin. A urethane ball has a softer cover and a harder mantle underneath, this allows the cover to deform and create more friction and more spin. The surlyn cover won't deform and won't generate the same amount of spin.

    I'm pretty sure even when I take some sand rather than trying to "clip" the ball, there's as much difference in urethane-vs-surlyn spin on bunker shots as on pitches and chips. There's one guy I play a lot with who's around 70 and has lost some clubhead speed. He'd really like to try some "distance" balls for more rollout on his drives and so forth. But he specifically notices on bunker shots that anything other than urethane ball will run out forever on our firm Bermuda greens. I don't mean he will stop a 15-yard explosion shot on a dime with a urethane ball. But 10-15 feet of runout versus 20, 30 feet or more is a pretty big deal. It's only 2-3 shots a round but when he tried the Titleist Velocity (awful ball IMO but someone suggested he try it) all his bunker shots rolled off the green.

    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • agolf1agolf1 Members  1986WRX Points: 1,147Posts: 1,986 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #180

    On -, @North Butte said:

    On -, @arbeck said:

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @North Butte said:

    On -, @Twism86 said:

    Wanted to come back to my thread to update my current playing situation. Last week I shot the best round of life and first time breaking 90 with an 84. Played the Callaway Superhot Bold in red that I really like. My iron game was on! A few of my iron shots to the greens stuck and few rolled too far but I think that is a trajectory thing over surlyn vs urethane.

    Anyway, I was playing the other night with a TP5 (urethane obviously) and had a bunker shot that for the first time I could ever tell really checked up on me! Hard, wet bunker sand so you really had to clip it off the surface and not skull F it. I was down deep 6-7' with a close pin. I needed a high and spinning shot to even get close. Hit it perfect, landed right at the pin and one hop checked to a few feet and I made birdie. I really doubt I would get the same effect from my surlyn balls....... My iron striking has been improving so I think a change may be in order.

    I had a shot like that last weekend and I thought about this thread. Damp packed sand, green was tilted away from me big-time so no way to stop a ball coming out of the bunker. Pond on the other side of the green.

    I hit the bunker shot perfectly and it landed a few feet short of the hole with a little bit of spin. No magic, it didn't stop where it landed on the downslope! It still rolled a good ten feet down the hill past the hole but oh boy, with a Surlyn ball no way that stops before it runs all the way off the green.

    For me, shots like that only come up once every round or two. But when they do it makes me happy to have that extra spin. Spin can help even if you're not "sucking back" shots like Greg Norman in his prime.

    P.S. Nice 84. That's the way to break through into the 80's in style!

    Is there really a big difference in spin on bunker shots? I always thought this (amount of spin) was mainly how close you cut to the ball (along with sand type, how the ball is sitting, etc). I mean the ball isn't even on the face at all most of the time. I'm obviously ok playing surlyn balls and acknowledge the noticable difference on partial wedges, pitches, etc but not so much on a greenside splash.

    Spin is mostly caused by friction. Even in sand the friction of the club/sand against the ball is what causes backspin. A urethane ball has a softer cover and a harder mantle underneath, this allows the cover to deform and create more friction and more spin. The surlyn cover won't deform and won't generate the same amount of spin.

    I'm pretty sure even when I take some sand rather than trying to "clip" the ball, there's as much difference in urethane-vs-surlyn spin on bunker shots as on pitches and chips. There's one guy I play a lot with who's around 70 and has lost some clubhead speed. He'd really like to try some "distance" balls for more rollout on his drives and so forth. But he specifically notices on bunker shots that anything other than urethane ball will run out forever on our firm Bermuda greens. I don't mean he will stop a 15-yard explosion shot on a dime with a urethane ball. But 10-15 feet of runout versus 20, 30 feet or more is a pretty big deal. It's only 2-3 shots a round but when he tried the Titleist Velocity (awful ball IMO but someone suggested he try it) all his bunker shots rolled off the green.

    OK, I hear what both of you are saying on technically there's a difference. And I don't know here as much as I would refute the distance in run-out on full-swing iron shots. But I would still think the technique (talking very little sand or basically chunking it out and having it release) makes much more of a difference than the ball (vs. a pitch from a clean lie in the fairway, where the ball changes things a lot).

    Posted:
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    OK. If we're talking "chunk and run" where you just drag the club into the sand behind the ball and the ball comes out with a shovel full of sand and rolls a long way on purpose, any effect of the type of ball will be very little.

    My comments were more about the more usual modern technique of accelerating the clubhead past your hands as it passes under the ball. Even taking a fair bit of sand there's a certain amount of spin on that shot. And if it's a longish bunker shot they can actually spin a good bit.

    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
7

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