JGS Rankings

From their website:

Individual Scoring… Using each round individually, we use 75 % of the player's lowest round scoring differentials (Score – course rating). This is simply the average difference of their individual round scores compared to the USGA rating of the course for their tournament rounds completed in the last rolling 365 days. In other words, how well does this player score vs the difficulty of the golf course when playing in tournaments. This criteria counts for 65% of a player's ranking calculation.

It doesn't seem that they take the slope into account in their calculation. While this may not matter for elite players in older age groups, where differentials may be close to 0, it seems like it would have a large impact on younger and worse-ranked juniors whose differentials are larger. The latter would seem to get a boost by simply playing tournaments on courses with lower slopes?

Thoughts?

From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> @CTgolf said:

> From their website:

>

> Individual Scoring… Using each round individually, we use 75 % of the player's lowest round scoring differentials (Score – course rating). This is simply the average difference of their individual round scores compared to the USGA rating of the course for their tournament rounds completed in the last rolling 365 days. In other words, how well does this player score vs the difficulty of the golf course when playing in tournaments. This criteria counts for 65% of a player's ranking calculation.

>

> It doesn't seem that they take the slope into account in their calculation. While this may not matter for elite players in older age groups, where differentials may be close to 0, it seems like it would have a large impact on younger and worse-ranked juniors whose differentials are larger. The latter would seem to get a boost by simply playing tournaments on courses with lower slopes?

>

> Thoughts?

http://ncga.org/handicap/explanation-slope/

Slope should not be used.

> @leezer99 said:

> From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

**It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> @CTgolf said:

> > @leezer99 said:

> > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

>

> The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

>

> **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

I am having a hard time understanding your logic on wanting to use slope. It really makes little sense.

> @CTgolf said:

> > @leezer99 said:

> > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

>

> The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

>

> **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

This is a short sided approach and it sounds like you are just trying to figure out ways to game the system. Put up scores below the course rating and you'll be fine.

> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > > @leezer99 said:

> > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> >

> > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> >

> > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

>

> I am having a hard time understanding your logic on wanting to use slope. It really makes little sense.

>

>

I copied this from another website, explaining difference between course rating and slope:

"Slope rating (a term trademarked by the United States Golf Association) is a measurement of the difficulty of a golf course for bogey golfers relative to the course rating.

Course rating tells scratch golfers how difficult the course will be; slope rating tells bogey golfers how difficult it will be.

To put it another way: USGA Course Rating tells the best golfers how hard a golf course actually plays; USGA Slope Rating indicates how much harder the course plays for "regular" (meaning not among the best) golfers."

For players with higher handicaps (presumably worse-ranked and younger), for two courses with the exact same course rating the slope determines how much harder the course will play.

It doesn't matter as much (or at all) for players who are close to scratch - for those players, the course rating determines the difference in difficulty of two courses.

> @CTgolf said:

> I copied this from another website, explaining difference between course rating and slope:

>

> "Slope rating (a term trademarked by the United States Golf Association) is a measurement of the difficulty of a golf course for bogey golfers relative to the course rating.

>

> Course rating tells scratch golfers how difficult the course will be; slope rating tells bogey golfers how difficult it will be.

>

> To put it another way: USGA Course Rating tells the best golfers how hard a golf course actually plays; USGA Slope Rating indicates how much harder the course plays for "regular" (meaning not among the best) golfers."

>

> For players with higher handicaps (presumably worse-ranked and younger), for two courses with the exact same course rating the slope determines how much harder the course will play.

>

> It doesn't matter as much (or at all) for players who are close to scratch - for those players, the course rating determines the difference in difficulty of two courses.

You have the same opportunity as everyone else to pick and choose which tournaments you play in. If you feel like playing in events that are on courses with a low slope then so be it but I can almost guarantee you that their ranking will be lower as well making it harder to shoot under that number. Most of what slope tells you is the difficulty of getting on the green in regulation. If you're playing the appropriate tees then it's a moot point.

> @leezer99 said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > I copied this from another website, explaining difference between course rating and slope:

> >

> > "Slope rating (a term trademarked by the United States Golf Association) is a measurement of the difficulty of a golf course for bogey golfers relative to the course rating.

> >

> > Course rating tells scratch golfers how difficult the course will be; slope rating tells bogey golfers how difficult it will be.

> >

> > To put it another way: USGA Course Rating tells the best golfers how hard a golf course actually plays; USGA Slope Rating indicates how much harder the course plays for "regular" (meaning not among the best) golfers."

> >

> > For players with higher handicaps (presumably worse-ranked and younger), for two courses with the exact same course rating the slope determines how much harder the course will play.

> >

> > It doesn't matter as much (or at all) for players who are close to scratch - for those players, the course rating determines the difference in difficulty of two courses.

>

> You have the same opportunity as everyone else to pick and choose which tournaments you play in. If you feel like playing in events that are on courses with a low slope then so be it but I can almost guarantee you that their ranking will be lower as well making it harder to shoot under that number. Most of what slope tells you is the difficulty of getting on the green in regulation. If you're playing the appropriate tees then it's a moot point.

Differential determines 65% of JGS Ranking. Strength of Field only 25%. Additionally, the weaker the field the better the chance of Strength of Finish (10%).

I am not advocating a strategy, I am simply commenting that there seems to be a bit of a flaw in the way they have calculated rankings for higher differential, worse-ranked players if they do not take Slope into account. Those players would be better off playing lower Sloped courses, all things equal, and maximize their rankings by doing so.

> @CTgolf said:

> > @leezer99 said:

> > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

>

> The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

>

> **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

JGS isn't the only game in town when it comes to ranking. It has tons of flaws for sure and you will go nuts trying to figure it out. It only really works well because it it a pubic record of a lot of tournaments.

The only thing that really matters is focus on improving game and then go out and score better in bigger tournaments.

> @leezer99 said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > I copied this from another website, explaining difference between course rating and slope:

> >

> > "Slope rating (a term trademarked by the United States Golf Association) is a measurement of the difficulty of a golf course for bogey golfers relative to the course rating.

> >

> > Course rating tells scratch golfers how difficult the course will be; slope rating tells bogey golfers how difficult it will be.

> >

> > To put it another way: USGA Course Rating tells the best golfers how hard a golf course actually plays; USGA Slope Rating indicates how much harder the course plays for "regular" (meaning not among the best) golfers."

> >

> > For players with higher handicaps (presumably worse-ranked and younger), for two courses with the exact same course rating the slope determines how much harder the course will play.

> >

> > It doesn't matter as much (or at all) for players who are close to scratch - for those players, the course rating determines the difference in difficulty of two courses.

>

> You have the same opportunity as everyone else to pick and choose which tournaments you play in. If you feel like playing in events that are on courses with a low slope then so be it but I can almost guarantee you that their ranking will be lower as well making it harder to shoot under that number. Most of what slope tells you is the difficulty of getting on the green in regulation. If you're playing the appropriate tees then it's a moot point.

I don't agree with this statement. Slope does matter with all things equal and some courses do play much harder for certain types of golfers.

Having said that I think weather and time of year probably has more on effect than anything. You can have what is an easy course in May play with rock hard greens in August or have windy and raining day where the course plays much much harder. In both of those cases there is a good chance your ranking will suffer from those higher scores.

The biggest flaw I see in JGS is it doesn't take into account how you place against the same players in a tournaments and This really is only good for kids who can travel more often. eg head to South in Winter or North in the Summer.

TIger is back!

> @CTgolf said:

> > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > >

> > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > >

> > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> >

> > I am having a hard time understanding your logic on wanting to use slope. It really makes little sense.

> >

> >

>

> I copied this from another website, explaining difference between course rating and slope:

>

> "Slope rating (a term trademarked by the United States Golf Association) is a measurement of the difficulty of a golf course for bogey golfers relative to the course rating.

>

> Course rating tells scratch golfers how difficult the course will be; slope rating tells bogey golfers how difficult it will be.

>

> To put it another way: USGA Course Rating tells the best golfers how hard a golf course actually plays; USGA Slope Rating indicates how much harder the course plays for "regular" (meaning not among the best) golfers."

>

> For players with higher handicaps (presumably worse-ranked and younger), for two courses with the exact same course rating the slope determines how much harder the course will play.

>

> It doesn't matter as much (or at all) for players who are close to scratch - for those players, the course rating determines the difference in difficulty of two courses.

JGS Rankings are for the best kids, not the worst. The worst need to work to get better. This isn't recreational golf and that is what the USGA handicap system is for.

> @CTgolf said:

> > @leezer99 said:

> > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

>

> The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

>

> **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > > @leezer99 said:

> > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> >

> > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> >

> > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

>

> Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

> @CTgolf said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > >

> > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > >

> > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> >

> > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

>

> https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

>

> Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

Why are you worrying about something that is meant for bogey golfers and developing a handicap?

> @CTgolf said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > >

> > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > >

> > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> >

> > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

>

> https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

>

> Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

I know you’re not that dumb. The 6500 yard tee has a slope of 120. The 5700 yard tee sure as hell isnt 146. Pebble Beach from the US Open tees has a slope of 145.

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > >

> > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > >

> > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > >

> > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> >

> > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> >

> > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

>

> I know you’re not that dumb. The 6500 yard tee has a slope of 120. The 5700 yard tee sure as **** isnt 146. Pebble Beach from the US Open tees has a slope of 145.

Best I can tell the event for B11-13 is playing the red tees which is 72.5/128

> @leezer99 said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > > >

> > > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > > >

> > > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > > >

> > > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> > >

> > > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> > >

> > > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

> >

> > I know you’re not that dumb. The 6500 yard tee has a slope of 120. The 5700 yard tee sure as **** isnt 146. Pebble Beach from the US Open tees has a slope of 145.

>

> Best I can tell the event for B11-13 is playing the red tees which is 72.5/128

Never fear.... the scorecard is here. Playing from the tips is 128. The slope means zilch for a tournament golfer, so I don't see the point. Slope is meant for a recreational golfer. Seems to me this is an argument to get everyone a trophy. We have already failed a generation of kids by doing that.

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/flandersvalleywhiteb/detailedscorecard.htm

> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > >

> > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > >

> > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > >

> > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> >

> > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> >

> > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

>

> Why are you worrying about something that is meant for bogey golfers and developing a handicap?

This really isn't a big deal for me (or my child). I was just thinking about the ranking methodology and it came to mind as an obvious flaw that allows bad players to be ranked much higher than they should be if they only chose "easy" (low-sloped) courses.

Regardless, I don't think it's irrelevant - perhaps someone reading this will use it to his advantage.

> @leezer99 said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > > >

> > > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > > >

> > > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > > >

> > > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> > >

> > > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> > >

> > > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

> >

> > I know you’re not that dumb. The 6500 yard tee has a slope of 120. The 5700 yard tee sure as **** isnt 146. Pebble Beach from the US Open tees has a slope of 145.

>

> Best I can tell the event for B11-13 is playing the red tees which is 72.5/128

That’s the girls slope and rating. Not the boys. For boys it’ll be WAY lower

> @CTgolf said:

> > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > > >

> > > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > > >

> > > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > > >

> > > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> > >

> > > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> > >

> > > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

> >

> > Why are you worrying about something that is meant for bogey golfers and developing a handicap?

>

> This really isn't a big deal for me (or my child). I was just thinking about the ranking methodology and it came to mind as an obvious flaw that allows bad players to be ranked much higher than they should be if they only chose "easy" (low-sloped) courses.

>

> Regardless, I don't think it's irrelevant - perhaps someone reading this will use it to his advantage.

Slope is not really a big deal. If I see a course with a high slope rating it usually means you need to worry more about course management.

With JGS ranking the biggest part is scoring differential. A lot kids actually do better playing short easy courses with low course rankings because they do not have course management skills or can not hit a driver strait off the tee. If you can hit the ball long and strait your better off playing longer and harder courses.

> @CTgolf said:

> > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > > >

> > > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > > >

> > > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > > >

> > > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> > >

> > > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> > >

> > > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

> >

> > Why are you worrying about something that is meant for bogey golfers and developing a handicap?

>

> This really isn't a big deal for me (or my child). I was just thinking about the ranking methodology and it came to mind as an obvious flaw that allows bad players to be ranked much higher than they should be if they only chose "easy" (low-sloped) courses.

>

> Regardless, I don't think it's irrelevant - perhaps someone reading this will use it to his advantage.

Slope is based off of a certain tee set isn't it? You do realize that these tournaments don't use the tee sets on the score card? There is a mixture of tees. JGS also assigns the rating of the course. It doesn't not come from the tournament director.

> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > > > >

> > > > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> > > >

> > > > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> > > >

> > > > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

> > >

> > > Why are you worrying about something that is meant for bogey golfers and developing a handicap?

> >

> > This really isn't a big deal for me (or my child). I was just thinking about the ranking methodology and it came to mind as an obvious flaw that allows bad players to be ranked much higher than they should be if they only chose "easy" (low-sloped) courses.

> >

> > Regardless, I don't think it's irrelevant - perhaps someone reading this will use it to his advantage.

>

> Slope is based off of a certain tee set isn't it? You do realize that these tournaments don't use the tee sets on the score card? There is a mixture of tees. JGS also assigns the rating of the course. It doesn't not come from the tournament director.

This thread has devolved a bit from the original intention. I don't think what I am saying is really that controversial or provocative.

We can all agree that courses with the exact same course rating but very different slopes can vary dramatically in difficulty for a higher handicap (or differential) junior competitor. Thus, if faced with the option of choosing a tournament on a higher slope course vs a lower slope course, it seems to me that **a worse-ranked player (with a high differential) would be better off choosing the "easier" (lower-slope) course**.

But a high differential player is irrelevant and won’t be recruited by anyone so it’s irrelevant.

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > >

> > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > >

> > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > >

> > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> >

> > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> >

> > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

>

> I know you’re not that dumb. The 6500 yard tee has a slope of 120. The 5700 yard tee sure as **** isnt 146. Pebble Beach from the US Open tees has a slope of 145.

Holy s***. this made me LMAO!!!

Beast mode activated

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @CTgolf said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > >

> > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > >

> > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > >

> > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> >

> > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> >

> > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

>

> I know you’re not that dumb. The 6500 yard tee has a slope of 120. The 5700 yard tee sure as **** isnt 146. Pebble Beach from the US Open tees has a slope of 145.

Not to get into a big debate about this, but if Slope is measured as the sensitivity of the change in score on a given course for a bogey player vs a scratch player, I would actually argue that the Slope would be higher for a younger age than for an adult, even at shorter yardages (which are adjusted for age/gender).

Mathematically it would be calculated as follows for Player A (0 hcp) and Player B (18 hcp), assuming a "Standard Course" (SC) was one with a slope of 113 (as defined by USGA) vs a "Tournament Course" (TC):

[score for B on TC - Score for B on SC] / [score for A on TC - Score for A on SC]

The above measures the rate of change (additional strokes) for Player B (18 hcp) on a Tournament Course vs Standard Course (113 slope), compared to the rate of change for Player A (0 hcp) on those exact same courses. The bigger the ratio (change in Player B scores divided by change in Player A scores) the higher the slope.

Intuitively, the "Slope" measured above would be higher for a younger age than an adult. **In other words, it takes far less increase in course difficulty to generate a unit of incremental increase in the ratio ("Slope") for a 12yo than it would an adult, so the slope would theoretically need to be higher.**

> @CTgolf said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @CTgolf said:

> > > > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > > > From the NCGA - "...it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5-handicapper. As a golfer’s handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20-handicapper it takes 5 – 6 units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating."

> > > > >

> > > > > The #300 ranked player in the class of 2024 has a differential of approximately 15. The difference for him in playing a 120 slope course vs a 145 slope is approximately 3.3 shots per round. That's almost 100 spots higher in ranking.

> > > > >

> > > > > **It seems like a worse-ranked player could significantly increase JGS ranking by simply playing tournaments on low-sloped courses.**

> > > >

> > > > Nobody in 2024 is playing a course with a slope of 145. And if they did their differential wouldn’t be the same as a course with a slope of 120.

> > >

> > > https://tournaments.hjgt.org/Tournament/TournamentDetails?TID=10787&TournamentID=10787#overview

> > >

> > > Slope = 146 for Boys 11-13 division

> >

> > I know you’re not that dumb. The 6500 yard tee has a slope of 120. The 5700 yard tee sure as **** isnt 146. Pebble Beach from the US Open tees has a slope of 145.

>

> Not to get into a big debate about this, but if Slope is measured as the sensitivity of the change in score on a given course for a bogey player vs a scratch player, I would actually argue that the Slope would be higher for a younger age than for an adult, even at shorter yardages (which are adjusted for age/gender).

>

> Mathematically it would be calculated as follows for Player A (0 hcp) and Player B (18 hcp), assuming a "Standard Course" (SC) was one with a slope of 113 (as defined by USGA) vs a "Tournament Course" (TC):

> [score for B on TC - Score for B on SC] / [score for A on TC - Score for A on SC]

>

> The above measures the rate of change (additional strokes) for Player B (18 hcp) on a Tournament Course vs Standard Course (113 slope), compared to the rate of change for Player A (0 hcp) on those exact same courses. The bigger the ratio (change in Player B scores divided by change in Player A scores) the higher the slope.

>

> Intuitively, the "Slope" measured above would be higher for a younger age than an adult. **In other words, it takes far less increase in course difficulty to generate a unit of incremental increase in the ratio ("Slope") for a 12yo than it would an adult, so the slope would theoretically need to be higher.**

You’re trying to backpedal. The tournament you said was 146 slope would be 110-112 at most. Again a bogey golfer is irrelevant because they aren’t going to be recruited, the sole purpose of a ranking system. The ranking work excellent for low handicap golfers, which are the only ones that actually matter

I know exactly how slope is calculated. I don’t need a handicap lesson. You lost all potential credibility when you claimed a 5700 yard setup had a slope of 146.

> @iteachgolf said:

> But a high differential player is irrelevant and won’t be recruited by anyone so it’s irrelevant.

This^^^^^^^ which has been my point, but you said it better.