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Irons won't budge from steel shafts no matter what? What epoxy did they use?

 radiopreacher ·  
radiopreacherradiopreacher  32Members Posts: 32
Joined:  in WRX Club Techs #1

Bizarre irremovable glue on old school Ping Eye II BeCu irons?
CanNOT pull off shafts ... ?
I specifically learned and acquired equipment for this moment (actually the shaft puller was mainly for graphite shafts but I deployed it now, to no avail)... doing fine up until now, and/but... someone evidently used some weird, stubborn epoxy, (naturally), for the one set of irons I wanted to reshaft most, in life (LOL) for myself...
Any ideas what to do when you try... and try... until you've finally heated an iron hosel up to almost glowing for its full length (fearing, at this point, bending these BeCu angles out of whack twisting, giving up trying oven gloves and twisting) and even a beyond-professional shaft puller (which has been laughed at as Machinist Overkill) won't pull them ??
(the wood between the stationary vice at the head, and the hand-crank cross vice pulling backward -- the wood between them is buckling and creaking like the table they're independently bolted to is about to crack in half!)

What did they use for glue??

Any suggestions or insight will be so greatly appreciated I can't even express right now (I can't believe this).

Thanks very much in advance.
Jeff

P.S.
I have removed plenty of heads now, from irons to hosel-free driver heads with delicate paint jobs I left in tack (tonight!).
Naturally, I didn't care what happened to any of those test subjects that went fine but, naturally, now that I'm trying to get my special, favorite, set-aside-until-I-knew-what-I-was-doing:
Ping Eye II BeCu iron heads (with which I simply have a special, personal connection)
.. off of their (for me) stock, absurdly stiff Ping steel shafts, to lovingly (and BeCu Be-carefully) refinish them and put them on my favorite, classic Dynamic Gold shafts --
...only now do I experience iron heads that won't budge when the wood on the table is creaking and buckling between the crank-handle extractor and the stationary head clamp because of the sheer force pulling backward that still refuses to release the head from the shaft or pull the shaft ten thousandths of an inch backward.
What the heck?
Any suggestions or insight will be so greatly appreciated I can't even express right now (I can't believe this).

P.P.S. -- toxicity of BeCu and even aluminum, and the dawn of accidental/incidental nanoparticles ---
Yes I happen to have plenty of respect for beryllium and actually have a special mask I use for hours at the cutoff wheel for beryllium parts we make for aerospace comm assemblies we send to Trak Microwave and UB Corp etc., and have even experienced short term beryllium exposure symptoms thus far not documented, by accident, which is a special type of headache that only happened after cutting beryllium, once, twice, and after the 3rd time decided it was true no matter what anyone said (even a rat learns), and bought an expensive, consumable filter fume mask that stopped it in its tracks, versus standard masks rated for it -- it was the _fumes _not just particulate matter... so I'm not afraid if it after, also, learning to keep it from sinking in deeply into my flesh like even aluminum CAN do. I used to absorb aluminum into my body until my head ached and I was nauseous, still no explanation, but I think it was a combination of aluminum that had been reduced to nanoparticles, plus special chemicals involved in cutting and tumbling and degreasing etc. that allowed nano Al to pass into me and give me headaches (hello, flirting with premature dementia!)... even a rat learns from repetition and by eliminating variables... be careful -- even doctors don't know everything. When they can't account for something, you're just the stupid public, or imagining things.

Posted:
1

Comments

  • cadman88cadman88 Advanced Member Buffalo / Rochester, NY 2420Members Posts: 2,420
    Joined:  #2

    Perhaps JB Weld..? I had a friend with a Ping putter years back that when assembled they put a steel ball bearing down the shaft before they put on the grip and taped it into the hosel with a ramrod of some sort. Our club repair guy literally had to drill up thru the putter neck to break up the ball to remove the shaft.

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  • Adam CAdam C  572Members Posts: 572
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    I have pulled plenty of old Ping heads. The ball bearing I have only seen on the putters and need the drill. The irons take about 4x longer to heat as any other brand club. The epoxy eventually loudly pops, stuff goes flying, and it smokes like a you know what. It's ridiculous how long some of those pings took. I seem to remember utilizing a mallet as I heated it in some cases, literally banging on the head to get some movement on it. Don't know if that ever actually helped but. Mainly it was just a lot of heat from a MAP torch.

    Posted:
  • halliedoghalliedog  2419Members Posts: 2,419
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    @Adam C said:
    I have pulled plenty of old Ping heads. The ball bearing I have only seen on the putters and need the drill. The irons take about 4x longer to heat as any other brand club. The epoxy eventually loudly pops, stuff goes flying, and it smokes like a you know what. It's ridiculous how long some of those pings took. I seem to remember utilizing a mallet as I heated it in some cases, literally banging on the head to get some movement on it. Don't know if that ever actually helped but. Mainly it was just a lot of heat from a MAP torch.

    This is something I can comment on. I've pulled numerous Eye 2s, plenty of ISIs, and some I3s. Never had any of those issues. They did take a LITTLE longer than normal with the heat to break the epoxy bond, but never 4x, and stuff never went flying. I would never try using a shaft puller for steel shafted Pings though.

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New Hampshire 24180Members Posts: 24,180
    Joined:  edited Jun 19, 2019 8:03am #6

    I'm assuming they are steel shafts? If not, if you've heated them that much any graphite shafts would likely be toast by now - so just cut them off and drill out the hosels.

    A puller isn't needed for steel shafts. Assuming it is the factory installation (how well do you know the history of these irons?) Ping uses an interference fit with steel so it's likely more than just epoxy holding things together - and are know to be "stubborn" when pulling. This is one case where - instead of using the shaft extractor/puller - grabbing the head (with a insulated glove or towel of course) and using a twisting motion to manually pull may help release the head.

    Of course, if you are not familiar with the history of the set, it certainly is possible that some hack used jb-weld or some other such heat resistant method to glue the shafts in. In which case you'll have to resort to cutting, drilling and reaming out the hosels (at the expense of destroying the shafts).

    Posted:
  • Big BenBig Ben  9239Members Posts: 9,239
    Joined:  #7

    @Adam C said:
    I have pulled plenty of old Ping heads. The ball bearing I have only seen on the putters and need the drill. The irons take about 4x longer to heat as any other brand club. The epoxy eventually loudly pops, stuff goes flying, and it smokes like a you know what. It's ridiculous how long some of those pings took. I seem to remember utilizing a mallet as I heated it in some cases, literally banging on the head to get some movement on it. Don't know if that ever actually helped but. Mainly it was just a lot of heat from a MAP torch.

    It’s this, takes a ton of heat and you will know when the bond breaks they pop loudly.

    Posted:
    Irons: 19' Cobra CB's
    Drivers: Titleist TS3 & Cobra F9
    Fairway: Titleist 917F2
    Hybrid: A-Grind
    2 iron: Ping Rapture
    Wedges: Ping Gorge 2.0 Stealth's
    Putter: Evnroll 9.1
    Balls: ProV1
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  • brooky333brooky333  751Members Posts: 751
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    I am having the same problem with Ping putter
    didn't know about the ball bearings?
    Is there any way of removing this ball bearing
    brooky333

    Posted:
  • trhodetrhode Fitter / Builder  2007Members Posts: 2,007
    Joined:  #9

    I always give them a good wack with a rubber mallet after heating the crap out of them. They have a taper in the bottom of the hosel that wedges the shaft tip in. Just another stupid Pingism.

    Posted:
  • raggal62raggal62  510Members Posts: 510
    Joined:  #10

    You need to forcefully drive the heads off with a 1/4" ram rod inserted in the shaft. If you don't already own Maltby's lock tight shaft holder, get one. A stout vise and a big hammer and you'll be in business.

    Posted:
  • Bad9Bad9  4479Members Posts: 4,479
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    @brooky333 said:
    I am having the same problem with Ping putter
    didn't know about the ball bearings?
    Is there any way of removing this ball bearing
    brooky333

    If you are not concerned about saving the shaft cut it off at the hosel and grind the ball out with a Dremel and course grinding stones, it took two the times I have done it. The ball bearing itself is fairly soft as it had to deform to accomplish the lock. If you are saving the shaft then it becomes much more difficult and may involve drilling through the sole of the head as was mentioned above.

    Posted:
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  • radiopreacherradiopreacher  32Members Posts: 32
    Joined:  edited Jun 20, 2019 1:09am #12

    Thanks so much for everyone's comments. I'll act accordingly -- here comes Team Ram Rod! It's a set, no putter, hopefully no ball? Originally I tried the shaft puller just because I thought it would help with the stubbornness even though these are steel shafts (stock Ping). I know you normally only need to use a puller for graphite, but I thought it might help with steel and people just didn't bother or normally need it. It usually works ok.
    By twisting with oven mitts I was beginning to be afraid of bending the angle of the head out of whack, esp. when heating BeCu so high (I'd like to know if that's impossible, as it may be by hand?).
    I don't care about the shafts much. I'm very happy about the ram rod idea... I think this may be key!
    Thanks!
    Team Ram Rod !
    Ping comes off with a Pop hehe

    Posted:
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  • BaitkillerBaitkiller  1752Members Posts: 1,752
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    Map gas and the ram rod will do the trick.

    As per Ping putter shafts.. send them to Ping. They come back looking like new for short money. It took me too **** long to realize I don't have to do everything myself.

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  • BaitkillerBaitkiller  1752Members Posts: 1,752
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    Drats.. I meant to say "darn"! Gee Willikers.

    Posted:
    Turn over damnit!
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  • mogc60mogc60  1016Members Posts: 1,016
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    Heat heat and more heat. Those were a beast to get out.

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  • autronicdsmautronicdsm  801Members Posts: 801
    Joined:  #16

    I had something similar happen to me recently. Built two heads, one with steel shaft, one with graphite and used golfworks epoxy. Could not get the steel shaft off. I think I spent 15 minutes heating it with a torch and using a shaft puller. It finally came off... all epoxy was in a hosel and shaft tip was CLEAN. I almost popped my wrist out too trying to tighten vise to hold the shaft, it kept getting pulled through. When I tried to remove graphite shaft, it came out super easy. I was worried I might damage it by having to heat it for 15 minutes too, but 20 seconds and puller did its job.

    My point is that it's probably not epoxy but something else :)

    Posted:
  • musclefrontmusclefront  448Members Posts: 448
    Joined:  #17

    same here when I pulled shafts from Pins s56.....they use some super grade epoxy at ping!! every other brand, mizuno titleist cobra srixon TM, has been a breeze

    Posted:
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  • sm_wattssm_watts  689Members Posts: 689
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    I had another post on this a few years ago myself. I’ve pulled a lot of heads, but I had to take Ping BeCu’s down to my local shop for his heavy duty puller. I believe it’s a combination of Ping’s hosels really tightening up (as previously noted) and the BeCu not reacting to heat the same as regular steel. It’s like it doesn’t transfer the heat inwards to the shaft.

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  • NessismNessism To measure is to know...  18982Members Posts: 18,982
    Joined:  edited Jun 22, 2019 12:45pm #19

    It's not the epoxy, it's the interference fit of the shaft into the hosel at the bottom that makes older type Pings hard to pull. A lot of people don't seem to understand that which makes me wonder how many of these same people short shaft the clubs upon reassembly because they don't drive the shaft into the hosel to seat the shaft?

    Posted:
    Post edited by Nessism on
    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New Hampshire 24180Members Posts: 24,180
    Joined:  #20

    @Nessism said:
    which makes me wonder how many of these same people short shaft the clubs upon reassembly because they don't drive the shaft into the hosel to seat the shaft?

    Can't say I share that sentiment - I wouldn't consider it "short shafting" the build. Epoxy alone w/o that same interference fit seems good enough for every other OEM and builder. And Ping doesn't even seem to use the same interference fit for graphite shafts based on the pulls I've done. Now Ping's abnormal tapered hosel shape would benefit from some shimming to get a good fit instead but the end result with that approach would be perfectly fine.

    Posted:
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know...  18982Members Posts: 18,982
    Joined:  #21

    Well Stuart, if the shaft is not seated all the way down into the hosel that's "short shafting", or at least that's what I was referring to. Engagement length is lost. If you have found graphite shafted Ping's without the interference fit that just means that the shaft tip has either been shaved or it has deformed with time.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • Adam CAdam C  572Members Posts: 572
    Joined:  #22

    @sm_watts said:
    I had another post on this a few years ago myself. I’ve pulled a lot of heads, but I had to take Ping BeCu’s down to my local shop for his heavy duty puller. I believe it’s a combination of Ping’s hosels really tightening up (as previously noted) and the BeCu not reacting to heat the same as regular steel. It’s like it doesn’t transfer the heat inwards to the shaft.

    It's the hosel and the epoxy. The epoxy is definitely different from what everyone else was using back then. Don't think BeCu has anything to do with it. BeCu sits about the same place as most steels on the thermal conductivity chart if not slightly higher, so it should be faster at failing if anything.

    @Nessism said:
    It's not the epoxy, it's the interference fit of the shaft into the hosel at the bottom that makes older type Pings hard to pull. A lot of people don't seem to understand that which makes me wonder how many of these same people short shaft the clubs upon reassembly because they don't drive the shaft into the hosel to seat the shaft?

    I don't understand the interference fit. How did they do that? I have reshafted plenty of Ping heads. When you heat them to the "pop" point, the head just comes off without issue. Is the hosel actually tapered, bulbed, bent or whatever? Or is there a secondary material in there used to lodge it in place, and that material is what ends up popping after prolonged high heat?

    Posted:
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  • NessismNessism To measure is to know...  18982Members Posts: 18,982
    Joined:  edited Jun 22, 2019 4:11pm #23

    @Adam C said:
    I don't understand the interference fit. How did they do that? I have reshafted plenty of Ping heads. When you heat them to the "pop" point, the head just comes off without issue. Is the hosel actually tapered, bulbed, bent or whatever? Or is there a secondary material in there used to lodge it in place, and that material is what ends up popping after prolonged high heat?

    If you don't drive the shaft into the hosel it won't seat. I've tried to recreate an exaggerated illustration of how the hosel necks down at the bottom of the hole. If you look inside the hosel you can see the step which is about 1/4" long.

    Oh, and I've posted this video a number of times previously but apparently it bears repeating. Watch this build video and pay attention at the 3:00 mark when the shaft is forced into the head in order to seat it.

    .

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New Hampshire 24180Members Posts: 24,180
    Joined:  #24

    @Nessism said:
    Well Stuart, if the shaft is not seated all the way down into the hosel that's "short shafting", or at least that's what I was referring to.

    Sorry, I thought you were implying "short" with respect to quality, not a literal reference to length.

    Posted:
  • radiopreacherradiopreacher  32Members Posts: 32
    Joined:  edited Jun 29, 2019 4:12am #25

    Thanks everyone. I think I'm OK. I will definitely try to drive on the first, new irons shaft (steel Dynamic Gold .370") to make sure it's past any interference fit snap-in/step... but it is curious how simply heating it enough to finally get the adhesive to smoke and turn to power made them slip out without popping or being driven off... is this hosel bottom Step feature surely on the BeCu Ping Eye II's as well?

    I got frustrated when my ram rod was too fat and tried one more time, heating them more, this time with propane (didn't have MAP but this was better than my little butane drivers/painted-metal-woods torch). As long as I haven't degraded the BeCu by heating it too much (and made it brittle or something) I'm golden.

    I'm not afraid of messing any of them up except the 9 iron -- the 9 iron, the day of my original post, upon experimenting, I'd broken the shaft off in it with just a steel shard sticking out. So it I wasn't able to vice the shaft and grab the head and twist back and forth, and thus had to heat it up most of all, and smoke the epoxy thoroughly before it would yank out with pliers grasping the steel shard (I tried **** in a threaded wood bolt to yank and twist the broken off shaft inside but the bolt was a few .001's too narrow to grab hold enough). Alas after enough smoked glue the pliers yanked it out pulling the exposed steel shard.

    The 9 iron was the only one I heated enough to discolor slightly, but when I Scotch-brite it the discoloration 100% disappeared. If the discoloration was through deep I'd probably be hosed because the metals would have begun to separate (like watching silver metals separate off of copper with brasses or bronzes in a foundry).
    Guess I'll know if I hit a ball and it cracks my BeCu 9 iron hosel like a dried out wooden head.
    It's a shame I didn't choose to learn on my host of expendable clubs but I was impatient to work on my favorite, and that never pays.
    My two favorite sets are these and my Malby KE4 Forged (as kinda ugly as they are).
    Thanks again, all. I'm glad to have seen this video. God Bless you and Be Safe, including (speaking of God) lightning - for real.

    Posted:
    Post edited by radiopreacher on
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know...  18982Members Posts: 18,982
    Joined:  #26

    You can't use .370" shafts in those heads unless you ream them. They are taper tip.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • toctoc  2899Members Posts: 2,899
    Joined:  #27

    I’m so confused as to what I just read

    Posted:
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    Towel: white
    Repair tool: metal
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    Iron headcovers: wait, what?

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  • radiopreacherradiopreacher  32Members Posts: 32
    Joined:  edited Jul 1, 2019 11:01pm #28

    @Nessism said:
    You can't use .370" shafts in those heads unless you ream them. They are taper tip.

    Wow thanks I don't know how I missed that. I assumed they were .370 parallel for reasons I won't go into. So it's OK to ream them? I have the means (aerospace parts shop=owes me favors) and it won't leave the hosel walls too thin? I do have the shafts already and they're for keeps, not selling.

    And thanks again for the interference fit thing... these do appear to have it (looking with pen light), just a bit different... like a "bumpy" step -- and then a bulge just below. Then McGolf just recommended driving like you do with any and all, just in case. Neato.

    Thanks again

    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New Hampshire 24180Members Posts: 24,180
    Joined:  edited Jul 2, 2019 8:32am #29

    @radiopreacher said:
    So it's OK to ream them? I have the means (aerospace parts shop=owes me favors) and it won't leave the hosel walls too thin?

    Yes, it's fine if you have the right tools. It's really not that much metal at all - so zero concerns about what it will do to the hosels (if done properly). But .370" isn't a very common size outside of the golf industry so even a high end shop may not have a reamer of that particular size. Fortunately if that shop doesn't have the right size, they are easy to get:

    https://www.golfworks.com/spiral-fluted-reamers/p/gw0115/

    Posted:
  • ColejColej  1705Members Posts: 1,705
    Joined:  #30

    a good vise, torch, and a leverage block. Any ping head can be removed.

    Posted:

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