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[update: solved by snead?] Shallowing AoA

hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
edited Sep 9, 2019 3:05am in Swing Videos and Comments #1

i want to shallow out AoA. sometimes coming in too steep causes pulls or miss-hits off of the toe.

recently saw some "squat and rotate" drills mentioned here and plan to try this week. also keen to know if anyone sees something specific with my swing or if there are other good drills to work on.

thank you!

any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

Post edited by hoselpalooza on
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  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    note: camera angle looks like it's positioned too far inside.

    this is an 8-iron; probably a bigger swing than i'd normally make with this club but wanted to drill the full swing anyway.

    changed backswing a bit and tried to focus on squatting and rotating during a quick range session today. feels different but seemed effective at shallowing out AoA. want to try this with more controlled footwork next time. e.g. keep trail foot planted longer for shorter clubs. also want to try shorter swing with shorter clubs and mix in some longer swings with long-irons.

    keen for feedback if anyone spots something worth mentioning.

    thanks!

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • laneholtlaneholt Members Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    HP,
    The golf swing is an inclined circle around our torso. It is the job of the INNER circle ( turning torso ) to square the club face, NOT the HANDS ! ( I know- this goes against ALL HUMAN GENETICS TO USE OUR HANDS TO - HIT .)
    You are doing what comes naturally and trying to HIT the BACK of the ball. That is incorrect. Our goal is to PULL the HEEL of the club face into the inside quadrant of the ball. The TORSO ( inner rotating hub ) squares the face, not the hands.
    Now- send a video showing me how you would need to setup to make that happen. A clue- it would be very much similar laying a log parallel to your left foot and chopping It into with an axe.
    Try it and let me know.

    Lane

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited Jun 20, 2019 5:18pm #4

    You are doing what comes naturally and trying to HIT the BACK of the ball... Our goal is to PULL the HEEL of the club face into the inside quadrant of the ball. The TORSO ( inner rotating hub ) squares the face, not the hands.

    @laneholt, kindly explain what you mean in terms of what you see in the videos. thank you.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • laneholtlaneholt Members Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok- I see a player THROWING the club face out steeply into the back of the ball hitting with his HANDS. You are obviously attempting to HIT the ball NATURALLY as any person in the beginning stages trying to learn how to flight his ball in the direction they desire. Their are millions just like you NATURALLY throwing / casting with the goal to HIT a golf ball. Propelling a golf ball is a lever system - not an intention to HIT from the very top at the beginning of your DS. You PULL the lever between your arms and shaft down and round and SWEEP THE BALL OFF THE GROUND. I would recommend you watch videos of Hogan, Snead, Fowler, Woodland or many others without audio or reading print analysis and observe for yourself.
    Unfortunately, their is NOTHING NATURAL ABOUT THE GOLF SWING . IT IS TOTALLY *** UNNATURAL *** !
    It is a learned action. If it was a natural action I suspect the greatest athletes in Professional sports would dominate the PGA tour.
    Good luck

    Lane

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited Jun 20, 2019 6:52pm #6

    @laneholt , your comments remind me of a dr. bronner's liquid soap label. kindly refrain from further commenting, thank you.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hacker49hacker49 Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was going to comment with a suggestion of a video to watch but your comment in response to @laneholt shows you don't truly want advice.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited Jun 20, 2019 10:01pm #8

    @hacker49 said:
    I was going to comment with a suggestion of a video to watch but your comment in response to @laneholt shows you don't truly want advice.

    since i felt that very little of what lane said was applicable to the videos i posted i checked this person's comment history to see if it was worth reading into the cryptic comments above. what i found were a number of posts espousing unsubstantiated and oftentimes dubious "FACTS" which seemed to fuel (imho) unproductive debates. and of 565 comments only 3 have received "likes". i think i made the right call here.

    if you still want to withhold your video that's obviously your prerogative, though perhaps you should at least consider sharing it for the benefit of other people who discover this thread in the future.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • MountainKingMountainKing Members Posts: 1,738 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @hacker49 said:
    I was going to comment with a suggestion of a video to watch but your comment in response to @laneholt shows you don't truly want advice.

    Go check Lanes history, you'll see the OP made the right decision.

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  • aenematedaenemated Los Angeles, CAMembers Posts: 224 ✭✭✭

    Heh.

    Really solid swing foundation there, man. Great turn at the top.

    It's tough to tell from behind but from what I CAN see, you may have some lateral movement in your hips OR your tempo is a little off. Could obviously be more sure with a head-on shot but to my eyes, your hips are getting ahead of everything which is forcing you out and over the line - causing a pull or toe hook. Lateral movement can do it, tempo being off can do it ...

    This has actually been MY miss as of late; usually due to my tempo being off and I'll start my downswing before I've finished my backswing.

    Got a front-on view perhaps?

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  • aenematedaenemated Los Angeles, CAMembers Posts: 224 ✭✭✭

    And of course, I didn't even notice your second vid. Much better movement starting down - hands get lower and in the right position. Impact position looks better too. If you notice in your first vid, you're kinda shrugged over the ball whereas in the second, it's more down and through.

    Stick with what you're working on in the second one.

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  • DFinchDFinch Members Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Your hand path is much better in the second video, which helped get rid of the “scrunched” look at and post impact in the first video. Shortening the arm swing with help with sequencing and shallowing. You’re on the right path.

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  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    @aenemated & @DFinch , thanks for the feedback. will try to get an FO video this upcoming week. cheers!

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • ScottboxScottbox scottbox Members Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    edited Jun 26, 2019 5:49pm #14

    Second video looks really good! Give yourself a little room with your posture. Hands a little further away (think armpits-hands-ball of foot as one line). Check your balance, you might be set up a bit on your toes, which will keep you from turning your hips properly and getting your pressure to your right heel.
    The over-exaggeration of the backswing-downswing loop is really great. The one thing you want to do is start your downswing with a bit of an early lateral shift (tiny amount) with both your hips and torso before you get to the top, letting the club "fall" a little, then turn your pelvis. This prevents you from "faking it" by dropping your right shoulder too much, which will create early extension and screw up your low point. You'll be trading one problem for another.

    This is a cool drill that might help:

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    @Scottbox , thanks for the feedback and the video.

    The one thing you want to do is start your downswing with a bit of an early lateral shift (tiny amount) with both your hips and torso before you get to the top, letting the club "fall" a little, then turn your pelvis

    this is very close to what i've been working on though instead of starting with a lateral shift i've been starting with a little squat first.

    i've tried the move in the video you shared and it works when my timing is good (or i get lucky and correct on the downswing) but can get me in trouble when my timing is off. i.e. my hips sometimes rotate too quickly after making a lateral shift first but squatting seems to help maintain better connection/control, if that makes sense. hopefully i'll have some DTL and FO videos to share later this week.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & BurghMembers Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Based on your attached youtube - second video. Arms/hands work too much away from the body on takeaway - disconnected - need to be more in and up not out. End up with too little depth - hard to shallow, leads to steep. Right knee/hip kicks out too early and too out versus towargd left knee - arms stuck - face looks a bit open.
    Advice ,you received was poor.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited Aug 31, 2019 5:38pm #17

    @glk said:

    Based on your attached youtube - second video. Arms/hands work too much away from the body on takeaway - disconnected - need to be more in and up not out. End up with too little depth - hard to shallow, leads to steep. Right knee/hip kicks out too early and too out versus towargd left knee - arms stuck - face looks a bit open.
    Advice ,you received was poor.

    thanks for bringing this comment over here, i appreciate you insights.

    did you notice the difference in lead arm depth between the 1st and 2nd videos? the 1st video has pretty good depth imho yet resulted in a steep swing. the main thing i'm trying to accomplish in this thread is getting more shallow and the 2nd swing was much more shallow. i agree depth is important but the whole point of the 2nd video was to find something that made it easier to get a feel for shallowing so i could incorporate the movement in my normal swing. i.e. 2nd swing is overly exaggerated.

    could you elaborate on the early kick out and arms getting stuck? i'm not sure what you mean exactly. thanks!

    Post edited by hoselpalooza on

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & BurghMembers Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    did you notice the difference in lead arm depth between the 1st and 2nd videos? the 1st video has pretty good depth imho yet resulted in a steep swing. the main thing i'm trying to accomplish in this thread is getting more shallow and the 2nd swing was much more shallow. i agree depth is important but the whole point of the 2nd video was to find something that made it easier to get a feel for shallowing so i could incorporate the movement in my normal swing. i.e. 2nd swing is overly exaggerated.

    could you elaborate on the early kick out and arms getting stuck? i'm not sure what you mean exactly. thanks!

    Practicing a bad backswing to feel shallow is not good, imo. Yes, you exaggerate more in the 2nd video but in the first you still take the club away from you and disconnect your arms from your pivot.
    Alignment stick drill is far superior drill

    maintain connection to side until shaft parallel then drag down lead leg - make sure to not early bend the right arm and to feel the right arm stay a bit higher than the left until between shaft/arm parallel - keeps you connected and works a steep to shallow pattern - do it slowly - can feel like you are swinging in a loop when you shallow but you aren't just a feel as the club head drops behind and below your hands - a drill to go with this is (not using the stick) is at the top, freeze then flex the lead wrist then swing.

    On your knee and stuck
    where you are where the shaft is pretty much the same in both swings (steeper in first but still steep in 2nd) and knee kicked out early. arms behind hips

    where you want to be (ankles rolls and knee works toward the left knee - later in swing - and shaft laying down along the right forearm - arm almost in front of hip and will be at impact.


    Drill to keep hip/knee back but do slowly

    I know a lot of stuff. Hope it helps.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    @glk , really appreciate the detailed feedback, thank you.

    keeps you connected and works a steep to shallow pattern

    could you share any thoughts on a flat/shallow backswing like hogan? i've noticed if i make a good transition after a flat/shallow backswing it's much easier for me to get shallow in the downswing. the higher my hands are in the backswing the easier it seems for me to get steep in the downswing. so if i want to make a shallow-to-shallow pattern are there any "gotchas" or downsides (etc.) i should be aware of?

    where you want to be (ankles rolls and knee works toward the left knee - later in swing - and shaft laying down along the right forearm - arm almost in front of hip and will be at impact.

    good call. +1

    I know a lot of stuff. Hope it helps.

    transition seems like the key for me at this point. i have a strong hunch i've struggled with transition because of my focus on getting the hands higher. it seems possible that a more flat/shallow backswing could set up a better transition for me and that better footwork could improve the move from transition into impact. if this is correct these two things don't sound like too much stuff.

    thanks for your time, i appreciate you!

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & BurghMembers Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    What I’ve seen for guys with flat backswing (kuchar, dufner, Hogan) is they don’t let their right elbow get much off their side and don’t overly externally rotate it. Then they really get that elbow moving forward in transition. If you overly externally rotate (and I think this matches with getting it raised too much off the side) then the tendency is to internally rotate in transition and once again get steep.

  • Whiskey_fireWhiskey_fire Members Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Great tips here

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  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    did a lot of mirror and grip pressure work to improve takeaway and transition. some specific changes are loading into trail hip earlier and completing shoulder turn earlier. first time trying out the new moves during a lunch-time bucket. this is an easy 8-iron.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    @Scottbox said:
    The one thing you want to do is start your downswing with a bit of an early lateral shift (tiny amount) with both your hips and torso before you get to the top...

    this recently started happening on accident and it feels great.

    i noticed some inconsistency in my hip and shoulder rotation that caused inconsistent club positions at the top. to fix this i've been dialing in (or simplifying) my swing sequence. perhaps i'll have some time (and room on the range!) to get some FO and DTL videos and post explanations soon.

    long story short, when i max out shoulder rotation slightly before reaching the top, i can pull the club around just a tad more which causes my body move toward the target to compensate/keep me in balance. the reason i'd guess i couldn't (consistently) do this before is because my shoulders wouldn't always fully rotate and as a result there wasn't enough weight on the target side of my body.

    separately (and interestingly), to start the downswing i kind of have to squat now, however, it doesn't feel like squatting at all. it feels more like digging my trail heel into the ground to give me a solid pivot point so i can rotate in the opposite direction, if that makes sense. it feels like a natural reaction to the lateral shift/fall toward the target.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited Aug 31, 2019 9:36am #24

    finally got some video of the new move. first time i've been content with my swing in a loooong time. tension has practically disappeared and transition is consistently much better with some room for improvement. perhaps the best part is i'm swinging easier and making good contact.

    here's a DTL view of an 8-iron, 100%/25% speed.

    here's an FO view of an 8-iron, 100%/5% speed. quite a bit slower for the 2nd part because it looked "flippy" at full speed at first, however, (to my untrained eye) in slow motion the lowest point appears to be about 3"-4" ahead of the ball. (cc @aenemated, only took 2.5 months :P)

    Post edited by hoselpalooza on

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • aenematedaenemated Los Angeles, CAMembers Posts: 224 ✭✭✭

    Great progress, man!

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  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    @aenemated said:
    Great progress, man!

    thanks! probably still a bit steeper than i'd like when i swing fast and that knee's still kicking out. but it feels better than where i was a few months ago.

    @glk , as i start to work a bit more on footwork i'm wondering what issues can be caused by early kick out of the trail knee? e.g. does it make shallowing more difficult or are there other potential issues? thank you!

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    @hoselpalooza said:

    here's an FO view of an 8-iron, 100%/5% speed. quite a bit slower for the 2nd part because it looked "flippy" at full speed at first, however, (to my untrained eye) in slow motion the lowest point appears to be about 3"-4" ahead of the ball.

    taking a look at this with fresh eyes it really does look flippy at impact despite where the low point appears to occur. i know the angle is a bit off but it just doesn't look right to me. what's weird is i was striping these 8-irons about 170y at 80%-90% speed and none of them felt flippy. who knows, there could have been a helping wind above the trees.

    in any event, i'd like to get at least another FO video from a better angle where i focus on a point 4" in front of the ball (instead of the ball) and swing much easier, like 60%-70%. and perhaps i could try some shots with a flatter backswing for comparison and focus on getting even more shallow.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    hit a bunch of balls this evening with tee heads placed 4" ahead of the ball to ascertain low point and had no problem clipping 'em out of the ground. i'm just going to keep doing this for a while instead of getting an FO video from a better angle. perhaps i really was getting flippy but i'm content with this simple solution moving forward.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 2:27am #29

    drastically slowing down the backswing helped improve the move from the top to the ball. dispersion was good. occasional misses were 5y-10y pulls to the left but more often than not i was finding the center of the club face and hitting tight draws on target.

    notably, i might lose 10y-15y with the slower backswing despite flushing it more often. e.g. regular speed backswing gets 5y-10y more on shots hit a groove too low, though these are only guesses with range balls. should probably get on trackman and get actual numbers for current full and max swings for pure shots and misses. anyway, i think i'll make slower and more consistent the baseline for play and keep pushing it in practice.

    here's a 7i with a really slow backswing:

    edit: just noticed my hands appear higher at impact in the FO video. tough to tell in the latest DTL video but this could be good to look out for.

    Post edited by hoselpalooza on

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2019 8:48pm #30

    slowing everything down to try and get this right.

    edit: i think i've spotted a hitch which may cause me to get steep and pull the ball. it looks like my shoulders rotate on too flat of a plane to start the downswing, forcing the club to work around on a steeper downward plane. if i could get my trail (right) side to work underneath my spine to start the downswing i think the club would naturally get more shallow. perhaps this is something lead wrist flexion (a.k.a. the "motorcycle move") helps fix.

    Post edited by hoselpalooza on

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 3:20am #31

    ok, i'm getting snead's swing keys book ASAP. saw some clips and diagrams on the ABS website last night and it immediately clicked. the shortened hand path is still a bit foreign feeling but triggering the lower body transition move by pulling down with the last two fingers of the lead hand at the top of the backswing just makes sense. wow.

    p.s. there was a mirror behind me, hence the goofy look back at the camera :D
    p.p.s. these suspenders make me look like a centaur.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

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