Is this too low spin???

So here’s my question if I can launch the ball at 16*-17* and with 150mph+ ball speed is 1700-1900 spin really too low? I’m asking because I want to go with the HZRDUS Smoke Green but am kind of getting talked out of it because of my current driver numbers. With my current 8.5 G400 lst/Motore Speeder 757 combo I am at 14* launch and 2400 spin 157 ball speed. Why can’t I get a 10.5 LST Head and go with the Green Smoke? I just don’t see why going with a higher lofted driver and a super low/low shaft wouldn’t be the ticket. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong here.

Might want to play around with the flightscope optimizer a little.

https://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/

2400 is a much more manageable number for playing actual golf.

> @nfmoto said:

> 2400 is a much more manageable number for playing actual golf.

So not sure I completely understand this part. I just used the flightscope and when I put in a higher launch than what I have now and really low spin(1900) it gives me better number than what I have now. What about this spin number is “less manageable”?

> @nfmoto said:

> 2400 is a much more manageable number for playing actual golf.

agreed. Anything sub 2000 is great for long drives and it is fun to watch, but it is not practical for hitting fairways and doing anything besides impressing people on the range.

> @jasonTeI3 said:

> > @nfmoto said:

> > 2400 is a much more manageable number for playing actual golf.

>

> So not sure I completely understand this part. I just used the flightscope and when I put in a higher launch than what I have now and really low spin(1900) it gives me better number than what I have now. What about this spin number is “less manageable”?

>

>

Backspin stabilizes the ball flight. If you're spin axis gets a little too left, or a little too right; the ball with 2400 RPM of spin is going to be straighter. Also, there are low spin spots on the golf club. You can easily loose 500-800 RPM of spin by hitting high on the face and/or out towards the toe. When you're only generating 1900 RPM on good strikes, that's going to fall down to the low 1000's and your ball is probably just going to fall out of the sky.

> @arbeck said:

> > @jasonTeI3 said:

> > > @nfmoto said:

> > > 2400 is a much more manageable number for playing actual golf.

> >

> > So not sure I completely understand this part. I just used the flightscope and when I put in a higher launch than what I have now and really low spin(1900) it gives me better number than what I have now. What about this spin number is “less manageable”?

> >

> >

>

> Backspin stabilizes the ball flight. If you're spin axis gets a little too left, or a little too right; the ball with 2400 RPM of spin is going to be straighter. Also, there are low spin spots on the golf club. You can easily loose 500-800 RPM of spin by hitting high on the face and/or out towards the toe. When you're only generating 1900 RPM on good strikes, that's going to fall down to the low 1000's and your ball is probably just going to fall out of the sky.

My miss is low on the face which increases spin but I understand what your saying. As far as the ball’s spin axis being right or left I don’t curve the ball with the driver anyway. I mean honestly I don’t know how anyone does with these drivers and balls now. I still can hit a big push or a bit of a pull now and then but mostly the ball flight is pretty straight.

> @jasonTeI3 said:

> > @arbeck said:

> > > @jasonTeI3 said:

> > > > @nfmoto said:

> > > > 2400 is a much more manageable number for playing actual golf.

> > >

> > > So not sure I completely understand this part. I just used the flightscope and when I put in a higher launch than what I have now and really low spin(1900) it gives me better number than what I have now. What about this spin number is “less manageable”?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Backspin stabilizes the ball flight. If you're spin axis gets a little too left, or a little too right; the ball with 2400 RPM of spin is going to be straighter. Also, there are low spin spots on the golf club. You can easily loose 500-800 RPM of spin by hitting high on the face and/or out towards the toe. When you're only generating 1900 RPM on good strikes, that's going to fall down to the low 1000's and your ball is probably just going to fall out of the sky.

>

> My miss is low on the face which increases spin but I understand what your saying. As far as the ball’s spin axis being right or left I don’t curve the ball with the driver anyway. I mean honestly I don’t know how anyone does with these drivers and balls now. I still can hit a big push or a bit of a pull now and then but mostly the ball flight is pretty straight.

>

Dial in a sub 2k solid strike and hit one remotely on the toe or off center/high on the face and you will see some wild shots. 14*/2400 @157 is a very playable shot.

I agree with you all but don’t you think moving up to a 10* head from a 8.5* with pretty much even out any difference between a shaft that is going to lower my launch by a degree or so and knock down my spin by 300-400 rpm’s

Hard to say, how you respond to a speeder and a low low shaft might not be what you expect. Just saying you are not far off from optimal for your speed. You really don't need to increase launch angle and you really dont need to lower spin much. Launching at 16-17* with 1700 spin will be wild knuckle balls, if it's windy good luck with that apex and lack of spin

Loft has a greater effect on backspin and launch than the shaft. So moving to a 10.5 would increase both, then you would be depending on the shaft to bring just the spin down ~500~ rpms (which I don't think is very likely unless the previous shaft was a very bad fit). I agree with everyone else and how great your #'s are currently (at any ball speed). But then again, if you are really set on trying your hypothesis out, go for it and report back what you find. Nothing substitutes for personal trial and error or confirmation.

> @Krt22 said:

> Hard to say, how you respond to a speeder and a low low shaft might not be what you expect. Just saying you are not far off from optimal for your speed. You really don't need to increase launch angle and you really dont need to lower spin much. Launching at 16-17* with 1700 spin will be wild knuckle balls, if it's windy good luck with that apex and lack of spin

Yeah I hear you. I wish I would have never seen that PVD Green Smoke!

Technically somewhere around 16 launch and 1600-1800 spin on a perfectly struck ball is how you will hit the longest drives assuming normal fairway conditions.

The issue is if you catch it a little too far on the toe that spin will drop down crazy low and you will get duck hooks that will literally fall out of the sky and not go anywhere.

Its for that reason that I switched to a driver that will give me like 2300 spin. On my toe misses I still get enough spin to make the ball manageable and playable. Sure I give up some distance on perfectly struck shots but it isn't worth the tradeoff.

To add to what the others have said, its not about intentionally shaping the ball, its about mishits. The horizontal gear effects of heel/toe strikes will tilt the axis of the ball and the less spin it has, the more that axis tilt will impact ball flight. What that means is an optimized strike at around 2,400rpm gives you room for error. A toe strike might drop several hundred RPM but you're still above 2,000. An optimized strike at 1,700rpm however will dive down below 1,500 with the same kind of strike and what was a draw with the previous strike now becomes more of a knuckle hook and that pretty PVD shaft doesn't do a whole lot for you from the woods.

That said, @BleederFade is right, loft (as well as strike location) have a much greater impact on spin that the shaft and there is no reason that you can't loft up to add spin. The Green Smoke isn't going to magically keep your spin below 2,000 or anything crazy like that, shafts have a fairly small impact overall on your spin numbers. Strike location and loft are king, loft up and you'll be fine if you MUST have that gorgeous shaft. :p

> @BleederFade said:

> Loft has a greater effect on backspin and launch than the shaft. So moving to a 10.5 would increase both, then you would be depending on the shaft to bring just the spin down ~500~ rpms (which I don't think is very likely unless the previous shaft was a very bad fit). I agree with everyone else and how great your #'s are currently (at any ball speed). But then again, if you are really set on trying your hypothesis out, go for it and report back what you find. Nothing substitutes for personal trial and error or confirmation.

Is not the way it works, so let me try to split this up....

A shaft can bend more or less forward during impact, we call this ADDED Dynamic loft, but the labels we see on shafts like LOW, MID or HIGH is really only valid for a small group of players, those with some load and a late release.

For most others, the shaft profile is a FEEL factor like over all flex is, but dont get me wrong, FEEL is VERY IMPORTANT and might change the players swing and by that, the delivery of the club, even with a early release.

For the ball, Loft is Loft, it has no clue where it comes from, it might be Static loft, added dynamic loft from the shaft, but its still only "loft". Dynamic loft is simply Loft at impact, but how the head got into that position does not matter for the ball.

Now lets move on to the club head.

Static loft of the club head is one thing, but just as important is face Bulge and ROLL, and for launch angle, ROLL is the one we should look at. Depending on where we make impact on the face (height from leading edge to the crown), actual Loft on the face changes, so its not unusual to see 3* and up to 4* as difference to launch angle alone, all depending on where we make impact. (head twisting and gear affects is part of it, ROLL alone CANT explain all this changes to launch or Spin)

Next is the club heads Vertical and Rearward Center of Gravity.

Vertical gear effects is the ABSOLUTE ruler of spin on a driver, it overrules ALL other parameters.

A short RCOG cuts of spin (add less forward shaft bending due to RCOG vs Shaft center, NOT face), but a short RCOG also removes forgiveness on impact outside VCOG, so DONT use that way to reduce spin if spin really is a issue.

As average i concluded that it only takes 1/8" of an inch UP or DOWN on a 58-60* angle line on the face (the club speed lines) to reduce or add 240 RPMs of spin, so 2/8" or about 6.5 mm is all it takes to change spin by close to 500 rpms or what we can hope for when we look at different shaft models.

That means the shaft itself is way more important for WEIGHT, and FEEL than it is for ball flight or spin values, those should be taken care of by choosing the right head model, with the right static loft and other settings, DONT leave ball flight to the shaft, its for a reason we play different heads all the way trough the bag, because ball flight is a CLUB HEAD issue, NOT a shaft issue.

So Adding static loft, and taking it down again with a shaft thats stouter and delivers less dynamic loft gives the same loft at impact, the same spin and launch values, IF impact remains the same, but why would we do that?, is the shaft you play a little "loose"?

About low spin values down at 1700 RPMs....

If LAUNCH angle is HIGH enough, and the player dont have hooks or slice as miss hits, dont worry, even down at 135 mph ball speed, we get OVER and BEYOND Trackmans optimum numbers with 16* of launch and about 1750 Rpms...the ball do NOT fall out of the sky, only a really badly tilted spin axis can do that, so pay attention to SPIN AXIS when ball flight looks crazy.

When that happens, its a face to path and impact issue where gear effects mess up ball flight on heads with a short RCOG number like TM SLDR, we DONT see the same issue on other head when we take advantage of vertical gear effects to cut of spin, but we need to know where VCOG is located on the face, and be aware of how it moves on the heel to toe axis depending on face to path at impact. (In to out with a closed face to path for a draw moves VCOG toe side, and a path out to in with a face open vs club path for a fade move VCOG against the heel side, so for a draw, move impact slightly toe side, and for a fade move it slightly heel side to the ghe club heads "mass" directly behind the ball at impact.

Use this DIY driver tune up to get the max out of your driver, or find the specs that fits you for the next club, you DONT need any special tools at all, but a roll of lead tape and some other small stuff like duct tape and a whiteboard pen/dry erase marker like described in the link is very handy during this tune up..

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

Holy s*** Howard Jones that was in depth. Thanks

Thanks for the clarification, Howard. I guess I was viewing it as if the head and strike were constant as loft increased, then in theory wouldn't launch and spin increase as well? I also didn't see it as likely that any shaft profile would reduce his spin a significant amount, unless there was a bad fit. I do understand strike is a very big determinate and a shaft can alter your strike and swing pattern.

I am no way a professional builder like you, just my 2 cents.

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @BleederFade said:

> > Loft has a greater effect on backspin and launch than the shaft. So moving to a 10.5 would increase both, then you would be depending on the shaft to bring just the spin down ~500~ rpms (which I don't think is very likely unless the previous shaft was a very bad fit). I agree with everyone else and how great your #'s are currently (at any ball speed). But then again, if you are really set on trying your hypothesis out, go for it and report back what you find. Nothing substitutes for personal trial and error or confirmation.

>

> Is not the way it works, so let me try to split this up....

> A shaft can bend more or less forward during impact, we call this ADDED Dynamic loft, but the labels we see on shafts like LOW, MID or HIGH is really only valid for a small group of players, those with some load and a late release.

> For most others, the shaft profile is a FEEL factor like over all flex is, but dont get me wrong, FEEL is VERY IMPORTANT and might change the players swing and by that, the delivery of the club, even with a early release.

>

> For the ball, Loft is Loft, it has no clue where it comes from, it might be Static loft, added dynamic loft from the shaft, added dynamic loft by hitting up in the ball (positive angle of attach), or a combination of the above, but its still only "loft".

> Dynamic loft is simply Loft at impact, but how the head got into that position does not matter.

>

> Now lets move on to the club head.

> Static loft of the club head is one thing, but just as important is face Bulge and ROLL, and for launch angle, ROLL is the one we should look at. Depending on where we make impact on the face (height from leading edge to the crown), actual Loft on the face changes, so its not unusual to see 3* and up to 4* as difference to launch angle alone, all depending on where we make impact. (head twisting and gear affects is part of it, ROLL alone CANT explain all this changes to launch or Spin)

>

> Next is the club heads Vertical and Rearward Center of Gravity.

> Vertical gear effects is the ABSOLUTE ruler of spin on a driver, it overrules ALL other parameters.

> A short RCOG cuts of spin (add less forward shaft bending due to RCOG vs Shaft center, NOT face), but a short RCOG also removes forgiveness on impact outside VCOG, so DONT use that way to reduce spin if spin really is a issue.

>

> As average i concluded that it only takes 1/8" of an inch UP or DOWN on a 58-60* angle line on the face (the club speed lines) to reduce or add 240 RPMs of spin, so 2/8" or about 6.5 mm is all it takes to change spin by close to 500 rpms or what we can hope for when we look at different shaft models.

>

> That means the shaft itself is way more important for WEIGHT, and FEEL than it is for ball flight or spin values, those should be taken care of by choosing the right head model, with the right static loft and other settings, DONT leave ball flight to the shaft, its for a reason we play different heads all the way trough the bag, because ball flight is a CLUB HEAD issue, NOT a shaft issue.

>

> So Adding static loft, and taking it down again with a shaft thats stouter and delivers less dynamic loft gives the same loft at impact, the same spin and launch values, IF impact remains the same, but why would we do that?, is the shaft you play a little "loose"?

>

> About low spin values down at 1700 RPMs....

> If LAUNCH angle is HIGH enough, and the player dont have hooks or slice as miss hits, dont worry, even down at 135 mph ball speed, we get OVER and BEYOND Trackmans optimum numbers with 16* of launch and about 1750 Rpms...the ball do NOT fall out of the sky, only a really badly tilted spin axis can do that, so pay attention to SPIN AXIS when ball flight looks crazy.

>

> When that happens, its a face to path and impact issue where gear effects mess up ball flight on heads with a short RCOG number like TM SLDR, we DONT see the same issue on other head when we take advantage of vertical gear effects to cut of spin, but we need to know where VCOG is located on the face, and be aware of how it moves on the heel to toe axis depending on face to path at impact. (In to out with a closed face to path for a draw moves VCOG toe side, and a path out to in with a face open vs club path for a fade move VCOG against the heel side, so for a draw, move impact slightly toe side, and for a fade move it slightly heel side to the ghe club heads "mass" directly behind the ball at impact.

>

> Use this DIY driver tune up to get the max out of your driver, or find the specs that fits you for the next club, you DONT need any special tools at all, but a roll of lead tape and some other small stuff like duct tape and a whiteboard pen/dry erase marker like described in the link is very handy during this tune up..

>

> https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

YES, IF and only IF we get the same impact spot (humans hardly ever doo, robots does), then we can use charts for loft vs spin like this one where ive used Trackmans numbers to expand the chart, so we cet to see how much 1, 2 or up to 5 degrees of loft SHOULD add at a give club speed, since spin is club speed related (ball compression or lack of it).

But real life is another ball game, where Vertical gear effects is the ruler of spin, so we can build a rebar with 7.5 of loft and make tons of spin due to a rather bad impact position, or we can build a 13 lofted driver

with high launch high spin shaft, and make a "high launch, low spin bomber", ALL due to advantages from impact position and gear effects, so if we move impact by only 2/8", shaft changes want be visible at all as contributors to spin, neither will static, dynamic OR Spin loft do.

Trackmans terms spin loft can only be used under LAB conditions using a robot, its useless to explain spin from a club in a humans hand, the numbers most often point the other way then, and say lower spin loft = higher spin, it becomes overruled by vertical gear effects if we move impact up or down on the face and 1/8" off is enough to mess up the math)

for those with a deeper interest, follow this link where ive explained this deeper down in details, and Tom Wishon is also contribution to the same tread with lots of info about club designs. To bad the "new WRX" has removed a few photos, but all texts seems to be there.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1044589/lowering-spin-rates/p1

My driver is a ping G 30. My swing speed can get up to 112.  With my G30 I hit good drives when I don’t try and kill it. 
   Since it is a old driver I want to upgrade but, with the new Low Spin drivers (all seems low soon compare to the G30) my spin is real low (low spin driver head at 800 to 900, standard driver head (from the new drivers) my back spin is at 1,100. (With my G30 my spin is 1,700 to 2,000) 

these are all with 9.5 driver heads. 
 

  I want to buy a new driver (since the g30 is about 12 years old) Not sure what to do at this point to get my spin to the optimal 2,000 to 2,200 

  Would simply going to a 10.5 driver work to get the spin where I want? 
 

thank you