Pace of play

This has probably already been discussed Ad infinitum but just wanted to know what is expected in 2019.

Recently returned from a weekend playing resort courses and didn't finish a single round under 4 hours. Probably waited a half hour on the course so could have done 3 1/2 or less. 6200 yard-ish, riding carts, ready golf, and not looking for balls too long. Handicap range 10 -15.

I thought 4+ hours was slow but my partner said it was a good pace.

Every course had a starter who said pace of play was important.

Only saw a single ranger on one course who didn't do anything although open holes in front of the group in front of us.

We had a ranger on my home course who tried to enforce pace but the big wigs who were worst culprits, had him fired. Now no ranger.

A walking round round 6000 yards is 4 to 4 1/2 hours.

So here is what I want to know:

Do the courses you play have rangers and do they do anything?

How can a ranger enforce times?

Is 4 hours an acceptable time; walking, riding?

Thanks

Unless the course is real spread out, no real difference in pace between walking and riding. 4.5 hours at a resort course is about right. At home, less than 4 hours is good. With my fast friends, we can walk 6500 in 3 hours. Slow friends take 4 hours for the same course. Guess which friends are the first ones to complain about slow play?

I've never played a course with any kind of 'ranger'. 18 holes typically takes around 4 hours. Sometimes less, sometimes more. I always assume 18 holes will take less than 5 hours and it does.

For me it's just not an issue. Part of why I play golf is because it's a pleasurable way to spend 'half a day' - either a morning or an afternoon. I have no desire for a round to last less than four hours and don't much care if it takes nearly the full five hours.

I'd rather not be standing around waiting to tee off but adjusting my pace of play means that rarely happens. Perhaps you need to adjust your expectations. Set aside five hours for a round of golf and 9.9 times out of 10 it'll take less time than that.

You can have all of the policies, signs, clocks, starters and rangers that you want - if players play slow, it’s going to be slow. Slow play won’t be solved until players play faster, that’s all there is to it. It’s like being in a bad neighborhood- go ahead set up neighborhood watch, extra police patrols and “busts”, but until the bad characters actually leave it is going to be a bad neighborhood.

I have played several places that actually have a posted "time par" on the cards, with a number of minutes specified as you go hole by hole, and for nine and 18...In each case, "time par" was between 4:15, and 4:30 for the round, which is a slower than I like to play. I play with a slow (very slow) guy and he defends himself by saying he is within the time par. I have told him that may stand up in court, but it doesn't make it pleasant to play with him.

On the other hand, I played with 3 strangers in The Villages, and I was in a cart, and the other three were walking pulling carts. We had 3-some in carts in front, and a 3-some in carts behind, and the moment a hole opened up in front the guys in back got nasty about it. There is a policy in The Villages, that in order to keep track of who is out there, you are not supposed to let groups play through. The ranger told us to "pick it up" a bit, which upset the two ladies who were walking. I showed the ranger that we were better than the posted time par, and that if he wanted to let the guys behind us play through, that was fine, but if not, he should tell those guys to chill, and he should apologize to the ladies. He did not want to let the group play through, and he did tell the the guys to chill, and he apologized to me and the ladies. So the time par thing has some value.

I think at any public or semi-public course, on a busy day, you are lucky to get around in less than 4:15.

> @andrue said:

> I've never played a course with any kind of 'ranger'. 18 holes typically takes around 4 hours. Sometimes less, sometimes more. I always assume 18 holes will take less than 5 hours and it does.

>

> For me it's just not an issue. Part of why I play golf is because it's a pleasurable way to spend 'half a day' - either a morning or an afternoon. I have no desire for a round to last less than four hours and don't much care if it takes nearly the full five hours.

>

> I'd rather not be standing around waiting to tee off but adjusting my pace of play means that rarely happens. Perhaps you need to adjust your expectations. Set aside five hours for a round of golf and 9.9 times out of 10 it'll take less time than that.

That pretty much sums it up for how I view it, too. 4+ hours is just what I accept as normal and I'm cool with it that way.

When I play as a single, with no traffic in front of me, I can easily clear my 6800yd course in well under 3 hrs, probably under 2.5 if I'm brisk about it - walking. I'm not inherently a slow player, and recently had a single in a cart say _your as fast as s.h.*.t for a walker_. That said, I never expect a round to be under 4 in a regular foursome and I just accept that as the norm in golf. 4.5hrs is totally fine for me because after all the years I've been playing, that's more likely to happen than not. I'd say that's typical when somebody is going to be looking for a few balls during the round and you might wait a few minutes on a par 3 or two. Nothing egregious in terms of being brutally slow playing partners.

I had an interesting exchange with a marshal one time. We were a walking foursome and none of us were slow. Highest handicap was 12 and he is one of those rabbit guys on the other end of the pace of play issue. We’re behind a riding threesome who had several open holes in front of them. As there are 4 of us walking we lost contact with the three who are riding. (Course has some large gaps between holes. Large as in 1/4 over bridges etc.) The marshal approaches us on a tee box and says we need to pick it up as we’re a hole behind. I look at him with a confused look on my face, and I check behind us to see another walking foursome still in the fairway. In my most respectful manner I ask if he noticed there were 4 of us on foot, and how did he propose we keep up with 3 in carts other than by sprinting between shots and holes.

I honestly don’t think he did notice as he said he was just doing his job. He didn’t bother us the rest of our 3 1/2 hour round.

As long as I am not standing around constantly waiting for the group in front of me or someone in my group I'm fine with whatever the pace of play is. One of they guys who plays regularly with my Dad is slow but he's also almost 90 with a bad hip so I give him some leeway. I'm not the fastest because I hit a lot of "duffs" so I hit lots of extra shots. If I loose a ball and I know I am holding others up, whether in my group or a group behind, I won't look long and just drop a ball using the new OB rule.

Last time out there was a threesome of "hackers" two groups ahead of us when we were starting the back 9. When we got to 12 they were on the tee box. They had let the 4some behind them play through, so now they were waiting for the foursome and we were waiting on them. Luckily a single came off of 11 while we were waiting and he joined our group so we didn't have to wait much on that group once we got past 12.

One problem with letting a group play through is that holds things up waiting for that group to play through. Also I remember when I was younger most courses didn't let singles play alone. They always paired them with another group. The course I play on a regular basis isn't the busiest so they have lots of singles playing. I kinda find it annoying always having to let a single play through.

I wish there was a universal answer but alas, there isn't. It varies depending on the level of the course, green fees, level of play and location. Here in SOCA POP at most courses is around 4.5-5hrs on weekends and around 4hrs or slightly less during the week, depends on tee off time. In CA if you're stuck behind a weekend tournament 5.5-6hrs isn't a surprise. Maui average for me has been 3.75-4hrs. Arizona depends on the course and time of day, but 4-4.5hrs and TX 3.5-4hrs. As you can see CA has the longest POP time due to the number of golfers. Sheets are full most of the time at nicer courses. From what I have seen biggest POP influence comes down to people that are not aware of golf ettiquete, the rules and or not very good at golf or considerate.

Got into this "discussion" at a recent tournament league event. I went out in the first group. There were regular daily fee players on the course when our tee times started. About 5 holes in, a guy from the pro shop (would not label him as a ranger or marshal) rides up and tells me there is 2 holes open BEHIND my group. I told him, maybe you should talk to them. Not much I can do since I am in front of them. They never caught up. My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you." Then I had to hear about how the guy from the shop talking to him over and over messed with his game. Some people just waste time on the course. That particular day, we had a guy in our group who actually lost 4 balls yet we kept pace with the group ahead of us. At one point, I think we fell a shot behind but quickly caught up. I have heard instructions from pros at stroke play tournaments with 96 players going off shotgun start tell everyone...you will play in 4 hours. I just laugh. I know that will not happen. On the other hand, posting pace of play at 4-1/2 hours at the course..does it help? Especially when people are happy if they finish in that length of time even if they are 2 or more holes behind? I think not. Just keep up.

> @RickKimbrell said:

> Got into this "discussion" at a recent tournament league event. I went out in the first group. There were regular daily fee players on the course when our tee times started. About 5 holes in, a guy from the pro shop (would not label him as a ranger or marshal) rides up and tells me there is 2 holes open BEHIND my group. I told him, maybe you should talk to them. Not much I can do since I am in front of them. They never caught up. My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you." Then I had to hear about how the guy from the shop talking to him over and over messed with his game. Some people just waste time on the course. That particular day, we had a guy in our group who actually lost 4 balls yet we kept pace with the group ahead of us. At one point, I think we fell a shot behind but quickly caught up. I have heard instructions from pros at stroke play tournaments with 96 players going off shotgun start tell everyone...you will play in 4 hours. I just laugh. I know that will not happen. On the other hand, posting pace of play at 4-1/2 hours at the course..does it help? Especially when people are happy if they finish in that length of time even if they are 2 or more holes behind? I think not. Just keep up.

>

Imo, courses started implementing pace of play times to improve the pace, now those times are often used to justify slow play. Maybe every course should implement a 3:50 pace.

> @golfandfishing said:

> You can have all of the policies, signs, clocks, starters and rangers that you want - if players play slow, it’s going to be slow. Slow play won’t be solved until players play faster, that’s all there is to it. It’s like being in a bad neighborhood- go ahead set up neighborhood watch, extra police patrols and “busts”, but until the bad characters actually leave it is going to be a bad neighborhood.

Not true. If the rangers have the authority to tell a slow group to skip a hole, it will speed up play.

But by that point 1) the slow play has already happened and other players have experienced its affects. 2) that relief is temporary, the players are still slow and faster players will catch up within 2 or 3 holes. 3) those same players will play slow the next time they are out at the same or any other course.

If players don't play faster, then there will always be a slow play problem. The root of this 2 attitudes - some are completely oblivious to their slowness. These same folks are the ones on the street that don't turn left when they get the green arrow, make a right turn from the far left lane, turn right on red in front a fast moving car with no one behind them, etc. They just live in a world that exists immediatley in front of them, nothing else even enters their frame of thought The other is the "I paid my money, eff everyone else". These folks need to be rounded up, placed in a water tight dome and then have the hose turned on.

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > You can have all of the policies, signs, clocks, starters and rangers that you want - if players play slow, it’s going to be slow. Slow play won’t be solved until players play faster, that’s all there is to it. It’s like being in a bad neighborhood- go ahead set up neighborhood watch, extra police patrols and “busts”, but until the bad characters actually leave it is going to be a bad neighborhood.

>

> Not true. If the rangers have the authority to tell a slow group to skip a hole, it will speed up play.

There are 2 types of golfers that I see a lot on public courses that don't mix well ...

Golfer A likes the social aspect of golf, likes getting outside in nature, might like some alcoholic beverages, and wouldn't mind if a round of golf lasted all day. Score doesn't matter, as golf is pretty much a just reason to "get out". Pace of play says 4:30? I'm taking all 4:30, maybe more.

Golfer B sees golf as a sport, not an activity. They want to "play" the game. They are usually efficient, and want to waste little time between shots. For many in this group, a fast round can mean more holes, or more practice. Take as few shots as possible, as little time as possible.

Now, there are other types of golfers (the wannabe Pro, the drunk, the once a year player, the newbie, etc.), but in MY experience, these 2 types are the most common, and they just clash when it comes to pace of play. No way to fix it, it just is what it is. You're not going to convince either one their way is wrong.

> @rogolf said:> Imo, courses started implementing pace of play times to improve the pace, now those times are often used to justify slow play. Maybe every course should implement a 3:50 pace.

Maybe your definition of slow play is different than many others.

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @rogolf said:> Imo, courses started implementing pace of play times to improve the pace, now those times are often used to justify slow play. Maybe every course should implement a 3:50 pace.

>

> Maybe your definition of slow play is different than many others.

>

Not very likely. Anything over 4 hours is slow. When I started playing, taking longer that 12 minutes to play a hole was abnormally slow, and there were no power carts.

The only fast group on the course is the one behind me

I think Troon Golf came up with a good idea a lot of the courses they manage, "Pacesetter" times early in the morning, designated for people who will commit to playing in at least 20-30 minutes less than whatever the "time par" is usually for the course; for example, 3:50 instead of 4:20. Then I think the customer absolutely has the right to complain and bi**h up a storm if they have one of these pacesetter times and the group ahead is slower than the reduced "time par".

I never used to be an early morning golfer, but have become one in recent years just because it seems the slugs generally don't like to tee off before 7am where I live.

I only play public and my usual 'expectation' is 4h 30m max.

I almost always play with walkers and if we are lucky enough to not have to wait on any hole then we're done in just over 4 hours usually.

I agree with Bonneville, book before 8am and you'll be fine. Beer-golf guy and newbie-hack guy only come out around 9am and later

4.5 or less is good. Several courses around here have a posted pace of play, rules for how it will be enforced and at least one ranger driving around checking on pace and enforcing where needed. No matter the day or time I play I’ve never had a round take longer than the stated policy and usually finish in less than that

> @rogolf said:>

> Not very likely. Anything over 4 hours is slow.

That's your definition. Others have different definitions.

> @GoGoErky said:

> 4.5 or less is good. Several courses around here have a posted pace of play, rules for how it will be enforced and at least one ranger driving around checking on pace and enforcing where needed. No matter the day or time I play I’ve never had a round take longer than the stated policy and usually finish in less than that

Pace of play is very easy to control. The course just has to want to control it.

> @tatertot said:

> There are 2 types of golfers that I see a lot on public courses that don't mix well ...

>

> Golfer A likes the social aspect of golf, likes getting outside in nature, might like some alcoholic beverages, and wouldn't mind if a round of golf lasted all day. Score doesn't matter, as golf is pretty much a just reason to "get out". Pace of play says 4:30? I'm taking all 4:30, maybe more.

>

> Golfer B sees golf as a sport, not an activity. They want to "play" the game. They are usually efficient, and want to waste little time between shots. For many in this group, a fast round can mean more holes, or more practice. Take as few shots as possible, as little time as possible.

>

> Now, there are other types of golfers (the wannabe Pro, the drunk, the once a year player, the newbie, etc.), but in MY experience, these 2 types are the most common, and they just clash when it comes to pace of play. No way to fix it, it just is what it is. You're not going to convince either one their way is wrong.

Add "ball retriever guy" to the list.

Pace of play depends on the course and time of day... I am a walker, as such I walk whenever I can. At one of the courses I play at on Sunday afternoons, my group walks in 4 hours 15 minutes. That is a foursome, and a hilly course. On my home course I can walk it by myself in under 2 1/2 hours.

What really determines how relative it is, is if you ride or walk. Walking a 4 1/2 round with a foursome isn't as bad as riding a 4 1/2 round as a twosome.

I like my own company well enough but if I'm going to endure four hours on the golf course it absolutely has to be with at least one other person. Four-hour solo rounds are less fun than sitting home and watching golf on TV (which is a really low bar!).

> @RickKimbrell said:

> Got into this "discussion" at a recent tournament league event. I went out in the first group. There were regular daily fee players on the course when our tee times started. About 5 holes in, a guy from the pro shop (would not label him as a ranger or marshal) rides up and tells me there is 2 holes open BEHIND my group. I told him, maybe you should talk to them. Not much I can do since I am in front of them. They never caught up. My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you." Then I had to hear about how the guy from the shop talking to him over and over messed with his game. Some people just waste time on the course. That particular day, we had a guy in our group who actually lost 4 balls yet we kept pace with the group ahead of us. At one point, I think we fell a shot behind but quickly caught up. I have heard instructions from pros at stroke play tournaments with 96 players going off shotgun start tell everyone...you will play in 4 hours. I just laugh. I know that will not happen. On the other hand, posting pace of play at 4-1/2 hours at the course..does it help? Especially when people are happy if they finish in that length of time even if they are 2 or more holes behind? I think not. Just keep up.

>

I think generally 4 hours is a fair pace. But I've played on courses where the greens were so fast and sloped that it really took a long time for 4 players to putt them. Fast tricky greens, in tournament play where you might actually have to putt them out, can really slow a round down. At a public course, on a busy day, 4:15 is still OK with me. But that's my pace. I'm glad they are starting to put "time par" on the card. It may be a tad slower than I like, but at least it's a standard a ranger can point to and gently nudge folks along. I've also had the experience where my group has had to wait for 5 holes, on every shot, then all of the sudden the pace picks up right when we lose a couple of balls, and in an instant WE are a hole behind AND behind the time par and it looks to everyone as if we were the culprits all day.

I don't necessarily agree that "keeping up" is the responsibility. Some players play as if their pants are on fire, (and often these are the groups that don't replace divots, fix ball marks, putt out, or rake bunkers). Just because they want to get done in less than 4 hours doesn't automatically make it my job to do so as well.

> @Lodestone said:> I think generally 4 hours is a fair pace. But I've played on courses where the greens were so fast and sloped that it really took a long time for 4 players to putt them. Fast tricky greens, in tournament play where you might actually have to putt them out, can really slow a round down.

There is a huge difference between tournament play and casual play. When you putt every ball out, it just takes much longer. Also, in tournament (stroke) play, you can't pick up when out of a hole like most of us do when playing casual games.

And you are correct; faster greens cause slower play.

Also, the course layout has a big impact. Two of our courses are laid out with a short walk from the green to the next tee. Two are laid out quite the opposite. This makes the pace of play around 30 minutes longer.

The bottom line is there cannot be one standard for pace of play.

> @Roadking2003 said:

> The bottom line is there cannot be one standard for pace of play.

Exactly

> @RickKimbrell said:

SNIP

> My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you."

>

SNIP

If they were behind you and did not hold up your group, why did you think it was your responsibility to say anything? That's a new one for me. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand the mindset.

It really depending on the golf course and the golfers.

If the golf course is walkable and golfers had played it before, then it should be under 4 hours of play without delay.

Resort courses usually frequent by first time players, whom not only playing unfamilia golf course but also want to enjoy and get their money's worth. Extra 5 minutes for 10 holes is 50 minutes added time to the round.

Rangers can not and should not agitate their "guest", unless the golfers are really out of line. Management will not enforce the pace of play to the book, they can only try to educate and encourage their guests to follow the suggested playing pace.

All you can do, as a guess, is to voice your opinion and not give them your pennies next time.