Would you have intervened?

Brother-in-law and I are paired with two guys from his club who are playing a match (Match play). High-ish handicapppers. He is friends with one of them and friendly with the other. 13th is a par-3. One of them tees it low, as one does, and takes a practice swing which gently knocks the ball off the tee so now it’s sitting in a crevice next to the tee. He doesn’t seem to notice and addresses the ball. I catch my brother-in-law’s eye. He makes a face like, “this should be interesting.”’ This player has a very deliberate pace, so there are probably still 3 seconds left before he actually swings. I’m about to say something (I think?! I’m still not sure if I would have) and, luckily, at that moment he notices it . He stops and fixes it and starts his routine over.

Would you have said something? If a third party had said something, should he or his opponent deem anything inappropriate? Would you have felt badly if he made horrible contact and you hadn’t said anything? (And to be clear, these guys were competing but had such cool, casual attitudes that I’m certain that both of them, no matter what we might have done, would have been totally fine. Neither would have been upset either way.)

I would not get involved in a match between two other guys. What happens in their match is between them.

I’m wondering if saying something would have been considered to be advice under the rules?

I probably would have said “oops” or something like that the moment it happened. I would not have cracked the worn out “that’s one!” joke. ?

I would have said something. I'm a good sport.

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> I would have said something. I'm a good sport.

Like: 'Are you really going to hit off from there?' Or what?

It was a match and you were not involved. Does 'good sport' mean that you need to intervene a match you have no part of? Where would you draw the line then? Which breaches would you inform and which not?

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > I would have said something. I'm a good sport.

>

> Like: 'Are you really going to hit off from there?' Or what?

>

> It was a match and you were not involved. Does 'good sport' mean that you need to intervene a match you have no part of? Where would you draw the line then? Which breaches would you inform and which not?

There are times that I, as a spectator, would most certainly intervene, such as when a player failed to replace his moved ball marker and may be about to play from a wrong place.

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > I would have said something. I'm a good sport.

> >

> > Like: 'Are you really going to hit off from there?' Or what?

> >

> > It was a match and you were not involved. Does 'good sport' mean that you need to intervene a match you have no part of? Where would you draw the line then? Which breaches would you inform and which not?

>

> There are times that I, as a spectator, would most certainly intervene, such as when a player failed to replace his moved ball marker and may be about to play from a wrong place.

You have a point there and generally I would agree afa breaches of Rules are concerned. Thus I have to admit my example was poorly laid. What I was trying to say is that sometimes there are things people do deliberately and we have no way of knowing that. In such cases intervening could be a poor choice. Maybe in this particular case it would have been ok but personally I am very cautious in such things.

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > I would have said something. I'm a good sport.

>

> Like: 'Are you really going to hit off from there?' Or what?

>

> It was a match and you were not involved. Does 'good sport' mean that you need to intervene a match you have no part of? Where would you draw the line then? Which breaches would you inform and which not?

Well, first of all, it's not a breach so no need to go down that path. It's up to the people in the match to police the rules.

I can't give you an exhaustive list but being a good sport means helping out folks. I consider that to be part of golf etiquette. Since it's not a stroke if the ball fell off the tee, don't see why you wouldn't tell the guy his ball fell off. I'd help the guys look for balls. I don't see that as interfering with their match. If a ball was on the green and struck and moved by another ball, I'd assist in telling the players what happened and where the moved ball was located originally.

Does the player have really bad eyesight or something? How would he not notice this?

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > I would have said something. I'm a good sport.

> >

> > Like: 'Are you really going to hit off from there?' Or what?

> >

> > It was a match and you were not involved. Does 'good sport' mean that you need to intervene a match you have no part of? Where would you draw the line then? Which breaches would you inform and which not?

>

> Well, first of all, it's not a breach so no need to go down that path. It's up to the people in the match to police the rules.

>

No, it is not a breach but I thought you would get the picture. My mistake.

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > I would have said something. I'm a good sport.

> > >

> > > Like: 'Are you really going to hit off from there?' Or what?

> > >

> > > It was a match and you were not involved. Does 'good sport' mean that you need to intervene a match you have no part of? Where would you draw the line then? Which breaches would you inform and which not?

> >

> > Well, first of all, it's not a breach so no need to go down that path. It's up to the people in the match to police the rules.

> >

> No, it is not a breach but I thought you would get the picture. My mistake.

>

So, what would you do in the OP's scenario?

I would not have intervened. It’s not my match. If his opponent noticed it and didn’t say anything, and had time to say something, my opinion of him would be lowered.

If it were my opponent, I would have definitely said something.

If I ask a guy to move his ball, I'll remind him to put it back. I'll help look for lost balls, help with the flagstick, but other than that I can't think of anything else. I'd want to do my best to stay out of their match in any way possible.

In this match play situation where you are an outside influence no direct rules issues arise. But if this is stroke play and you are another competitor it is different. If you make an observation about someone's ball position and pass that on because you think they have a problem with their next stroke if they remain unaware of that observation then you have met the definition of providing advice. Advice situations can be tricky, and must be considered carefully, but this looks intended to influence what the player does in their subsequent actions. Breach of 10.2.

> @antip said:

> In this match play situation where you are an outside influence no direct rules issues arise. But if this is stroke play and you are another competitor it is different. If you make an observation about someone's ball position and pass that on because you think they have a problem with their next stroke if they remain unaware of that observation then you have met the definition of providing advice. Advice situations can be tricky, and must be considered carefully, but this looks intended to influence what the player does in their subsequent actions. Breach of 10.2.

>

Now that’s interesting. Saying something could have been giving advice!

Certainly you can tell someone their ball has fallen off the tee- that is an OBSERVATION. Like saying.....Your ball is in a big divot. No ADVICE there.

i would tell him.

**Advice** does not include public information, such as:

The location of things on the course

> @briansagolfer said:

> Certainly you can tell someone their ball has fallen off the tee- that is an OBSERVATION. Like saying.....Your ball is in a big divot. No ADVICE there.

I suggest you need to re-read my post from the words "because you think...." . What I have described is a breach. If you want to describe something differently then that is a whole different assessment process. This is why the advice rule is a challenge.

> @lchang said:

> > @antip said:

> > In this match play situation where you are an outside influence no direct rules issues arise. But if this is stroke play and you are another competitor it is different. If you make an observation about someone's ball position and pass that on because you think they have a problem with their next stroke if they remain unaware of that observation then you have met the definition of providing advice. Advice situations can be tricky, and must be considered carefully, but this looks intended to influence what the player does in their subsequent actions. Breach of 10.2.

> >

>

> Now that’s interesting. Saying something could have been giving advice!

> @Newby said:

> **Advice** does not include public information, such as:

> The location of things on the course

I agree. But that is not the situation I described in my previous post.

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > > I would have said something. I'm a good sport.

> > > >

> > > > Like: 'Are you really going to hit off from there?' Or what?

> > > >

> > > > It was a match and you were not involved. Does 'good sport' mean that you need to intervene a match you have no part of? Where would you draw the line then? Which breaches would you inform and which not?

> > >

> > > Well, first of all, it's not a breach so no need to go down that path. It's up to the people in the match to police the rules.

> > >

> > No, it is not a breach but I thought you would get the picture. My mistake.

> >

>

> So, what would you do in the OP's scenario?

I would have not said anything. That is because it was their match and I coudn't have had any idea what would be their way of doing things, i.e. are they dead serious or very sporty. After all, singles matches should not be accompanied by other players so virtually I should not even have been present.

> @antip said:

> In this match play situation where you are an outside influence no direct rules issues arise. But if this is stroke play and you are another competitor it is different. If you make an observation about someone's ball position and pass that on because you think they have a problem with their next stroke if they remain unaware of that observation then you have met the definition of providing advice. Advice situations can be tricky, and must be considered carefully, but this looks intended to influence what the player does in their subsequent actions. Breach of 10.2.

>

I must say I fail to comprehend the message here.

Telling another player that he knocked his ball off with a practice swing is not an advice in my books. That is sportsmanship and not only allowed but appreciated.

> @briansagolfer said:

> Certainly you can tell someone their ball has fallen off the tee- that is an OBSERVATION. Like saying.....Your ball is in a big divot. No ADVICE there.

Sure, lots of things are "observations" but reporting some of them would be advice, such as "I observe that you are coming over the top."

Like Mr. Bean, to me the dividing line is whether a Rules violation would occur if the player hit the ball in question. I wouldn't speak out about a ball falling off a tee unless it fell off and came to rest out of the teeing ground.

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > In this match play situation where you are an outside influence no direct rules issues arise. But if this is stroke play and you are another competitor it is different. If you make an observation about someone's ball position and pass that on because you think they have a problem with their next stroke if they remain unaware of that observation then you have met the definition of providing advice. Advice situations can be tricky, and must be considered carefully, but this looks intended to influence what the player does in their subsequent actions. Breach of 10.2.

> >

>

> I must say I fail to comprehend the message here.

>

> Telling another player that he knocked his ball off with a practice swing is not an advice in my books. That is sportsmanship and not only allowed but appreciated.

I'll repeat, putting in bold text the words that differentiate the situation you describe and the one I describe. What I have identified as an advice situation is NOT simply telling someone his ball has fallen off the tee. The case I have presented has another player in stroke play INTENTIONALLY INTERVENING WITH THE SPECIFIC OBJECTIVE OF HELPING THE PLAYER IN THE CONDUCT OF THE NEXT SHOT. As such, it is comparable to purposefully showing the club you have just used on a par three before another player hits. Another example: another competitor is about to play and you notice that there is a twig half an inch in front of their ball that they clearly haven't seen and you intervene and say "there's a twig right in front and it could send your ball in any direction". These are breaches of 10.2a.

> @antip said:

>Another example: another competitor is about to play and you notice that there is a twig half an inch in front of their ball that they clearly haven't seen and you intervene and say "there's a twig right in front of your ball".

IYO is this a breach?

> @antip said:

>

> I'll repeat, putting in bold text the words that differentiate the situation you describe and the one I describe. What I have identified as an advice situation is NOT simply telling someone his ball has fallen off the tee. The case I have presented has another player in stroke play INTENTIONALLY INTERVENING WITH THE SPECIFIC OBJECTIVE OF HELPING THE PLAYER IN THE CONDUCT OF THE NEXT SHOT. As such, it is comparable to purposefully showing the club you have just used on a par three before another player hits. Another example: another competitor is about to play and you notice that there is a twig half an inch in front of their ball that they clearly haven't seen and you intervene and say "there's a twig right in front and it could send your ball in any direction". These are breaches of 10.2a.

Here is what you said: "If you make an observation about someone's ball position and pass that on because you think they have a problem with their next stroke if they remain unaware of that observation then you have met the definition of providing advice."

In your original statement it sounded like you were saying it would be a breach (in stroke play). Certainly you'd be telling the person that it fell off the tee because you think it is about to cause a problem. But now in later posts it sounds like you are saying not a breach.

> @antip said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > In this match play situation where you are an outside influence no direct rules issues arise. But if this is stroke play and you are another competitor it is different. If you make an observation about someone's ball position and pass that on because you think they have a problem with their next stroke if they remain unaware of that observation then you have met the definition of providing advice. Advice situations can be tricky, and must be considered carefully, but this looks intended to influence what the player does in their subsequent actions. Breach of 10.2.

> > >

> >

> > I must say I fail to comprehend the message here.

> >

> > Telling another player that he knocked his ball off with a practice swing is not an advice in my books. That is sportsmanship and not only allowed but appreciated.

>

> I'll repeat, putting in bold text the words that differentiate the situation you describe and the one I describe. What I have identified as an advice situation is NOT simply telling someone his ball has fallen off the tee. The case I have presented has another player in stroke play INTENTIONALLY INTERVENING WITH THE SPECIFIC OBJECTIVE OF HELPING THE PLAYER IN THE CONDUCT OF THE NEXT SHOT. As such, it is comparable to purposefully showing the club you have just used on a par three before another player hits. Another example: another competitor is about to play and you notice that there is a twig half an inch in front of their ball that they clearly haven't seen and you intervene and say "there's a twig right in front and it could send your ball in any direction". These are breaches of 10.2a.

Hmmmm.... if I was there I just might say 'did you notice the twig in front of your ball' and not consider that as an advice. The latter part of your sentence does however turn it towards an advice as you would be implying consequences.

I'm reminded of Jordan Spieth's unfortunate experience at this year's US Open, where he was in a deep bunker with tall grass at the high edge on the line toward the green, and his low shot cleared the bunker but hit a rake "hiding" in the high grass at the top. If a competitor playing with him had said, "Do you see that rake there?" before he hit I would not have seen that as meeting any of the three criteria presented in the definition of Advice. Perhaps the closest is, "Deciding how to play during a hole or round" but to me, this comment does not rise to that level. And a review of the Interpretations surrounding the definition of Advice doesn't lean me in the direction of a violation either -- though I openly admit that in general, this is a subjective area.

I would not say anything. I do my best to stay out of the way and have no impact when playing alongside a match. I also would not feel bad.

I would makes sure a player returned their ball mark if they moved it for me.