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Steve Stricker iron question .... groove rule?


eric6624

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I saw where Steve is using an old set of irons he played before 2010, my question is did they build them with new grooves years ago for him? These came out around 2006 I believe so would they have the old grooves? Sorry if this was asked somewhere else earlier. I couldn’t find anything on it.

 

Eric

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Most titleist irons save for the DCI oversize seires and a few others had V grooves. And will pass the test. They just don’t test and list old irons. You have to send them in to the USga testing lab to get certified to use in higher events.

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

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The set of 755 irons Stricker put back in bag were a conforming groove set and this was a topic of discussion recently- Greg posted pictures of them in tour/pre-release section.

Titleist TSR2 10* (d4 surefit) Fujikura Motore Speeder 7.2s
Titleist 904f 17* YS7+s
Titleist 962b 3-pw s300
Cleveland zipcore tour rack custom 52* s400
Cleveland zipcore tour rack custom 58* s400
Ping Zing2 BeCu

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> @eric6624 said:

> I saw where Steve is using an old set of irons he played before 2010, my question is did they build them with new grooves years ago for him? These came out around 2006 I believe so would they have the old grooves? Sorry if this was asked somewhere else earlier. I couldn’t find anything on it.

>

> Eric

 

https://www.golf.com/gear/pros-bags/2019/05/28/steve-stricker-titleist-755-iron-memorial/

 

_Stricker made it clear that even though the irons are from pre-2010 — when the USGA’s conforming groove rule went into effect — he had them checked in Hawaii eight years ago, prior to the 2011 Sony Open, “and they passed the test.” As for the second set of 755 Forged he still has at home, Stricker has never bothered to have the grooves checked._

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> @Tasals said:

> > @JAMH03 said:

> > [dyasxjmjn4n3.png](https://www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/ResultDisplay.aspx?clubtype=Iron&Manf=Acushnet%20Company&Prod=All "dyasxjmjn4n3.png")

> >

>

> Hes not playing the AP2s hes playing Titleist 755s CBs

 

@Tasals thanks I just tried to match up the picture from SS's WITB post.

 

[scvm9le56k8v.png](https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1737992/steve-stricker-witb-2019#latest "scvm9le56k8v.png")

 

 

 

 

 

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> @JAMH03 said:

> > @Tasals said:

> > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > [dyasxjmjn4n3.png](https://www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/ResultDisplay.aspx?clubtype=Iron&Manf=Acushnet%20Company&Prod=All "dyasxjmjn4n3.png")

> > >

> >

> > Hes not playing the AP2s hes playing Titleist 755s CBs

>

> @Tasals thanks I just tried to match up the picture from SS's WITB post.

>

> [scvm9le56k8v.png](https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1737992/steve-stricker-witb-2019#latest "scvm9le56k8v.png")

>

>

>

>

>

 

Which was January.

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This issue is commonly misunderstood and I think the USGA has done a poor job of explaining this. Even their site doesn't make this very easy to understand.

 

Just because a club was made prior to year X does not mean it is (or _will be_) non-conforming. Some are, many aren't. So many folks get this wrong. There's plenty of older clubs that have been measured by the USGA and deemed conforming and they will remain so.

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> @lowheel said:

> Heres a guide for anyone wondering about their older sets

> USGA Approved Iron Sets:

> Titleist:

>

> 660

> 670

> 680

> 690 (Cb/Mb)

> 695 (Cb/Mb)

> 712 (Cb/Mb)

> 714 (Cb/Mb/AP1/AP2)

> 735CM

> AP1 (710/712)

> AP2

> 710 (Cb/Mb)

> DCI (762/ 762b/ 822OS/ 962/ 990/ 990b)

> Limited 100

> T-MB

> VG3 (Version 1 and 2)

> Z·M

> ZB

 

Damn! I was hoping to see my irons on there. After their performance at the weekend, something is definitely wrong with them haha.

Titleist TSR2 8.25* Project X EvenFlow T1100 White 6.0
Titleist TSR3 15* Project X Hzrdus Smoke RBX 6.0
Titleist U505 3 Iron Project X Hzrdus Smoke RBX 6.0
Titleist T200/T150 4-PW KBS Tour Stiff
Titleist Vokey SM9 50.08F, 54.12D (Raw) & 60.04L (Raw) True Temper S200
Scotty Cameron Futura 5S
ProV1 2023

 

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> @"Mr. Hogan" said:

> The groove rule. For an organization that makes uncommon stupidity a common virtue, the USGA outdid themselves with this rule change.

 

 

Well we have been through this argument before, and absolutely no one can explain how the USGA groove rule negatively impacted any ordinary, average recreational player. As for elite competitive players, the USGA had reams of data on how so-called "square" grooves interacted with urethane-covered balls to produce spin control from heavy lies in the rough.

 

So I reject this particularly noxious trashtalk aimed at the USGA, and if I cared enough about your opinion, I might ask you to explain in detail what the USGA did wrong, and who it impacted negatively.

 

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@15th club

I will try to answer that question for you. The negative impact for the recreational player was likely more emotional or mental because he now is playing with non conforming gear unless he ponies up money to swap out his clubs. You are correct if you mean by recreational someone who doesn't keep a HC or belong to a club where scores are posted in competition. Otherwise the groove rule cemented a true bifurcation in competition between those deemed "elite" and everyone else. And still does.

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Non CC groove clubs can be used in handicap rounds and most regular competitions up to 2024. Where the clubs are banned is in high level USGA competitions and in local tournaments where the rules committee has decided to adopt the CC (condition of competition) groove rule. Of course this doesn't stop many people from proclaiming non CC groove clubs as "illegal". Anyway, there are lots of older sets with grooves that meet the CC rule, including the original type Ping Eye2's. There's tons of misinformation out there.

Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver
Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid
Ping G30 irons w/Recoil 95

Ping G425 irons w/Accra ICWT 2.0 95
Ping Glide wedges w/Recoil 110
Ping Redwood Anser - the "real deal!"

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> @"Mr. Hogan" said:

> The groove rule. For an organization that makes uncommon stupidity a common virtue, the USGA outdid themselves with this rule change.

 

Why haven't you noticed all the guy playing on TV are now throttling back and keeping the ball in the fairway at all costs to avoid being in the rough with the new grooves? And when they are in the rough, haven't you noticed that their bogies and double-bogies are much more frequent than with the old grooves?

 

No? Neither have I.

 

Nothing like years of controversy and expense in order to accomplish Sweet Fannie Adams.

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> @munichop said:

> @15th club

> I will try to answer that question for you. The negative impact for the recreational player was likely more emotional or mental because he now is playing with non conforming gear unless he ponies up money to swap out his clubs. You are correct if you mean by recreational someone who doesn't keep a HC or belong to a club where scores are posted in competition. Otherwise the groove rule cemented a true bifurcation in competition between those deemed "elite" and everyone else. And still does.

 

 

Wrong. Member Nessism already replied to you, but just for good measure I'll add to it. Old equipment is not "non-conforming." That is such bad, rotten, incorrect terminology for the groove rule. So many people fall for it, I even find myself repeating it in conversations like this one.

 

Old grooves were and still are "conforming." All that the USGA did was to mandate that newer equipment manufactured after the 2010 cutoff date would be made to the newer standard. And the way that elite competition administrators dealt with it was via a Condition of Competition wherein newer-spec conforming equipment was required, and older (conforming) equipment was barred.

 

At the time, the USGA specifically recommended to non-elite competition organizers that they NOT employ the Condition of Competition. The USGA stated that all old equipment should be able to be used by recreational players through the year 2024, but even then they suggested that they would revisit the issue at that time. The likely result is that older equipment will be usable by recreational players forever.

 

And so now let's hammer the point a bit further, by stating that unless recreational players are playing with high-end urethane balls, their grooves don't even matter. So for all of the recreational players who are playing with Top Flites, Titleist DT's, Callaway Superhot/Supersoft/Superdupers, etc.; it doesn't matter. You aren't spinning the ball enough for anybody to care about what you are doing. And of course based upon golf ball SKU sales data, that is the majority of ordinary recreational players.

 

We are now a full decade past the announcement of the groove rule. And for anyone playing for a handicap, playing in their club championship, wagering with other club players and basically in any competition short of their state am, an NCAA event, the US Am or the US Open, they have not been "forced" to buy any new equipment during that time. If they haven't, and won't, buy any new irons and/or wedges in 15 years, then perhaps we could talk about that but even then I doubt that you will have any sort of meritorious case of expense, inconvenience or injustice to present to me. But have at it. This is one of my favorite mythical USGA shibboleths to destroy.

 

 

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> @munichop said:

> @15th club

> I will try to answer that question for you. The negative impact for the recreational player was likely more emotional or mental because he now is playing with non conforming gear unless he ponies up money to swap out his clubs. You are correct if you mean by recreational someone who doesn't keep a HC or belong to a club where scores are posted in competition. Otherwise the groove rule cemented a true bifurcation in competition between those deemed "elite" and everyone else. And still does.

 

LOL, I had forgotten all those mental breakdowns.

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As I understand it, Steve Stricker's pull out his old Titleist 755's which are similar in design to my Titleist 725CM's, except 755 forged are not blended and have a bit more offset and a mix of SS & forged material to make CB. Back then Titleist irons conformed to standards before needed.

  • TSR2 10° Ventus Velo TR Blue 58S
  • TSR2 15° Talamonti PD80R
  • T200 17' 2i Tensei AV Raw White Hybrid 95S
  • T100 3i & 4i MMT 85S
  • T100 5i to 9i MMT 105S
  • T100 PW, SM9 F52/12, M58/8, PX Wedge 120S
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  • DASH -ProV1x
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The groove rule debacle is the perfect example of the USGA's ineptitude.

 

Start with a lofty goal: deter bomb and gouge golf. Spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) to study the issue. Make changes that force golf club manufacturers to spend millions on R&D and retooling of machinery. Force elite amateurs and pros to get new equipment. Create confusion and doubt as to what is legal or not for said elite amateurs and pros. Spend all kinds of time and money testing equipment after the rule came out to find out if the grooves for existing equipment is legal or not.

 

And all for this: no perceivable difference in how the game is played. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

 

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> @"Mr. Hogan" said:

> The groove rule debacle is the perfect example of the USGA's ineptitude.

>

> Start with a lofty goal: deter bomb and gouge golf. Spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) to study the issue. Make changes that force golf club manufacturers to spend millions on R&D and retooling of machinery. Force elite amateurs and pros to get new equipment. Create confusion and doubt as to what is legal or not for said elite amateurs and pros. Spend all kinds of time and money testing equipment after the rule came out to find out if the grooves for existing equipment is legal or not.

>

> And all for this: no perceivable difference in how the game is played. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

>

 

 

 

The groove rule is the perfect exemplar of ignorant casual golf fans' kneejerk reaction to blame the USGA for something that should be of no concern to them.

 

Casual/recreational players were never forced to buy anything new, and elite players on professional tours and in the ranks of NCAA teams all get their equipment basically for free. Only at the most elite levels did a Condition of Competition require the usage of new-spec'ed grooves, and at those levels, everybody was fully prepared for the new rule on groove specifications. I cannot think of one major problem in the rollout of the rule after 2010. (I am sure that there were minor problems at lower-tier events, mostly because some players were careless.)

 

As for the USGA's expenses on testing and research; they are doing it all the time, in many aspects of golf equipment. It is part of the thankless work done by the non-profit USGA, for which the profit-scrounging PGA Tour and PGA of America are no doubt profoundly grateful.

 

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> @"15th Club" said:

> > @"Mr. Hogan" said:

> > The groove rule debacle is the perfect example of the USGA's ineptitude.

> >

> > Start with a lofty goal: deter bomb and gouge golf. Spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) to study the issue. Make changes that force golf club manufacturers to spend millions on R&D and retooling of machinery. Force elite amateurs and pros to get new equipment. Create confusion and doubt as to what is legal or not for said elite amateurs and pros. Spend all kinds of time and money testing equipment after the rule came out to find out if the grooves for existing equipment is legal or not.

> >

> > And all for this: no perceivable difference in how the game is played. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

> >

>

>

>

> The groove rule is the perfect exemplar of ignorant casual golf fans' kneejerk reaction to blame the USGA for something that should be of no concern to them.

>

> Casual/recreational players were never forced to buy anything new, and elite players on professional tours and in the ranks of NCAA teams all get their equipment basically for free. Only at the most elite levels did a Condition of Competition require the usage of new-spec'ed grooves, and at those levels, everybody was fully prepared for the new rule on groove specifications. I cannot think of one major problem in the rollout of the rule after 2010. (I am sure that there were minor problems at lower-tier events, mostly because some players were careless.)

>

> As for the USGA's expenses on testing and research; they are doing it all the time, in many aspects of golf equipment. It is part of the thankless work done by the non-profit USGA, for which the profit-scrounging PGA Tour and PGA of America are no doubt profoundly grateful.

>

 

You’re both right

Glove: ML
Tees: 2 3/4
Towel: white
Repair tool: metal
Ball Marker: largest poker chip in the world
Iron headcovers: wait, what?

The feedback system is annoying

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Some good points being made on both side of this "discussion". Personally, I think that there was some good that came out of the CC groove rule, namely, better definition of groove shape and size. There were some manufacturers making some really funky grooves which tore up ball covers like crazy and who needs that? At the end of the day the rule change didn't impact the pros though, which is what seemed to be the main focus. I just hope the USGA grandfathers in the old groove clubs so guys can use them past 2024.

Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver
Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid
Ping G30 irons w/Recoil 95

Ping G425 irons w/Accra ICWT 2.0 95
Ping Glide wedges w/Recoil 110
Ping Redwood Anser - the "real deal!"

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And here I am thinking that it's time to upgrade my 695CBs because they're almost a decade and a half old...

Taylormade M1 9.5°  |  Speeder 661

Ping G 14.5°  |  Aldila NV 75

Titleist T-MB 21°  |  S400

PXG 0311T Gen2 4-PW  |  Elevate Tour X100

Callaway MD Forged  |  Recoil 125

Taylormade  |  Spider Tour Black

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