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Slope ratings UK vs USA


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We have just had published the first course ratings and slope numbers for local courses here in the UK.

Whilst most of them seem fairly logical there is one course that seems out of line and I would like to know if this is comparable to the US. There are 2 holes guarded by water on the front 9 and 3 on the back 9 (one of which is an island green) but apart from that it is a fairly regular test on the tougish side but not a real beast.

The course ratings, slope, yardage and par for the two 9s are as follows:-

Front 9 36.2 139 3252yards par 36

Back 9 37.1 151 3347yards par 35

Is this typical? As we are new to this over on this side of the pond it is difficult to judge, even though I am par5 of the local course rating team (therefore I know how it is measured) I wasn’t involved in this one.

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> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> We have just had published the first course ratings and slope numbers for local courses here in the UK.

> Whilst most of them seem fairly logical there is one course that seems out of line and I would like to know if this is comparable to the US. There are 2 holes guarded by water on the front 9 and 3 on the back 9 (one of which is an island green) but apart from that it is a fairly regular test on the tougish side but not a real beast.

> The course ratings, slope, yardage and par for the two 9s are as follows:-

> Front 9 36.2 139 3252yards par 36

> Back 9 37.1 151 3347yards par 35

> Is this typical? As we are new to this over on this side of the pond it is difficult to judge, even though I am par5 of the local course rating team (therefore I know how it is measured) I wasn’t involved in this one.

 

139 and 151 for those yardages sound well higher than the norm.

 

Being you were part of another team, wouldn't the team that rated this course have published notes you could access ?

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If your SSS is currently around 73, the course rating seems ok but your slope rating is huge, I'd say.

The slope ratings of these Scottish courses are lower according to popeoftheslope.com

Carnoustie 145

The Old Course 129

Muirfield 128

Royal Troon 134

 

My understanding is that Carnoustie is the toughest course we have in Scotland.

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> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> We have just had published the first course ratings and slope numbers for local courses here in the UK.

> Whilst most of them seem fairly logical there is one course that seems out of line and I would like to know if this is comparable to the US. There are 2 holes guarded by water on the front 9 and 3 on the back 9 (one of which is an island green) but apart from that it is a fairly regular test on the tougish side but not a real beast.

> The course ratings, slope, yardage and par for the two 9s are as follows:-

> Front 9 36.2 139 3252yards par 36

> Back 9 37.1 151 3347yards par 35

> Is this typical? As we are new to this over on this side of the pond it is difficult to judge, even though I am par5 of the local course rating team (therefore I know how it is measured) I wasn’t involved in this one.

The Course Rating manual/system etc is exactly the same as in the US. In fact the same munuals are used by all rating teams

 

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> @Newby said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > We have just had published the first course ratings and slope numbers for local courses here in the UK.

> > Whilst most of them seem fairly logical there is one course that seems out of line and I would like to know if this is comparable to the US. There are 2 holes guarded by water on the front 9 and 3 on the back 9 (one of which is an island green) but apart from that it is a fairly regular test on the tougish side but not a real beast.

> > The course ratings, slope, yardage and par for the two 9s are as follows:-

> > Front 9 36.2 139 3252yards par 36

> > Back 9 37.1 151 3347yards par 35

> > Is this typical? As we are new to this over on this side of the pond it is difficult to judge, even though I am par5 of the local course rating team (therefore I know how it is measured) I wasn’t involved in this one.

> The Course Rating manual/system etc is exactly the same as in the US. In fact the same munuals are used by all rating teams

>

Yes, I fully understand that the process is the same, just interested views on a seemingly anomalous result, Just one course ends up with over 14 slope points higher than any other in the County and wondering if we need to revisit/double-check some of the findings, views and assumptions. However if this sort of discrepancy or differential is ‘typical’ or not unusual, no need to question further.

 

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> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > We have just had published the first course ratings and slope numbers for local courses here in the UK.

> > > Whilst most of them seem fairly logical there is one course that seems out of line and I would like to know if this is comparable to the US. There are 2 holes guarded by water on the front 9 and 3 on the back 9 (one of which is an island green) but apart from that it is a fairly regular test on the tougish side but not a real beast.

> > > The course ratings, slope, yardage and par for the two 9s are as follows:-

> > > Front 9 36.2 139 3252yards par 36

> > > Back 9 37.1 151 3347yards par 35

> > > Is this typical? As we are new to this over on this side of the pond it is difficult to judge, even though I am par5 of the local course rating team (therefore I know how it is measured) I wasn’t involved in this one.

> > The Course Rating manual/system etc is exactly the same as in the US. In fact the same munuals are used by all rating teams

> >

> Yes, I fully understand that the process is the same, just interested views on a seemingly anomalous result, Just one course ends up with over 14 slope points higher than any other in the County and wondering if we need to revisit/double-check some of the findings, views and assumptions. However if this sort of discrepancy or differential is ‘typical’ or not unusual, no need to question further.

>

 

It would be good to get another rating team to rate it and see how the results compare. I know that in the Pacific Northwest of USA/Canada that they hold "ratings meetings" where rating teams from Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Alberta and British Columbia get together and rate one or two courses - makes for great consistency amongst them.

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> @"Deceptively Short" said:

 

> Yes, I fully understand that the process is the same, just interested views on a seemingly anomalous result, Just one course ends up with over 14 slope points higher than any other in the County and wondering if we need to revisit/double-check some of the findings, views and assumptions. However if this sort of discrepancy or differential is ‘typical’ or not unusual, no need to question further.

>

Is the course relatively 'tight', are the bunkers relatively deep?

You say you know the course, are you looking at it as a scratch or bogey player. Remember slope is a relative measure. The position of 'things' may not present problems for the scratch player but may be significant for a bogey player. eg if it is an old course the 'driving' bunkers may be at 200 yards rather than 250 say.

Incidentally are these rating for two different 9 hole courses or the front and back 9 of one course?

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> @DaveLeeNC said:

> Has anyone in the US ever seen a course of length 6600 yards and a slope of 145? I am not saying that there is anything 'wrong' here, but I have never seen that. If so, what are the characteristics of the course?

>

> dave

 

Pine Valley from the regular tees is about 6,500 and 153 I think. It's hard and there is bad trouble everywhere.

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> @DaveLeeNC said:

> Has anyone in the US ever seen a course of length 6600 yards and a slope of 145? I am not saying that there is anything 'wrong' here, but I have never seen that. If so, what are the characteristics of the course?

>

> dave

 

It's not common; that's for sure. And it would be a really hard golf course.

 

The Shattuck, in NH is 6,764 and a slope of 153 from the tips;

The Country Club composite course is ~6,600 and a slope of 144 from the blue tees;

Seminole is 6,600 with a slope of 144;

Winged Foot is 6,600 with a slope of 140;

 

But these are basically the hardest golf courses I've ever played...definitely nowhere near average.

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Butler National (White) has a slope of 144 from 6864 yds.

 

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The highest slope-rating I've played is Koolau in Hawaii, 6406 yards, 73.7/141. Soft conditions make it play longer, lots of forced carries, and lost ball/penalty area potential on every hole, in many cases on both sides of the hole.

So to the OP, the slope ratings seem higher than normal, but aren't completely out of the realm of possibility.

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> @Newby said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

>

> > Yes, I fully understand that the process is the same, just interested views on a seemingly anomalous result, Just one course ends up with over 14 slope points higher than any other in the County and wondering if we need to revisit/double-check some of the findings, views and assumptions. However if this sort of discrepancy or differential is ‘typical’ or not unusual, no need to question further.

> >

> Is the course relatively 'tight', are the bunkers relatively deep?

> You say you know the course, are you looking at it as a scratch or bogey player. Remember slope is a relative measure. The position of 'things' may not present problems for the scratch player but may be significant for a bogey player. eg if it is an old course the 'driving' bunkers may be at 200 yards rather than 250 say.

> Incidentally are these rating for two different 9 hole courses or the front and back 9 of one course?

 

There are 3 loops of 9, the two that are quoted here are the original course built some 20 years ago and the combination used for most events - there is another 9 built 10 years ago that I didn't quote (it is 3029 yards 129 slope par 34 rating 35.4).

I understand the relativity of scratch vs bogey golfer (just done the final course in the County today). Its not that it is an easy course but there are similar in the County, it is the disparity between this rating and other tough courses for all standards of golfer that seems odd 14 slope points more than the next highest, hence my question. As you say, maybe the positioning of hazards, doglegs (so forced layups) might be in exactly the right position creating the perfect storm. It is a pay and play course and hosts a lot of society golf and necessarily they don't set the course up tough otherwise players would never get round.

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This course isn't a new course, right? Just that it's switching to course/slope from the previous method? If the bogey golfer scores are valid for all those past rounds used to evaluate, then, those numbers are probably very correct. To me, this is simply an exercise in mathmatics and looking at past scratch golfer scores (course rating) vs bogey golfer scores (slope). The data should already exist. It's not like one has to make a judgement call of formal review period/provisional slope by playing the course and waiting for players results to filter in, If it's been open for a while and you have the scores, you have all the data you need to review how players (particularly bogey golfers scores since it's the slope in question) actually play the course, historically.

 

--kC

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This isn’t a new course. I assume that doing the math(s) on previous rounds wouldn’t necessarily work is that, as the USGA Course Rating and slope system are not in place yet, then the data from golfers who are not handicapped under this system would not be correctly comparable.

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> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > Has anyone in the US ever seen a course of length 6600 yards and a slope of 145? I am not saying that there is anything 'wrong' here, but I have never seen that. If so, what are the characteristics of the course?

> >

> > dave

>

> It's not common; that's for sure. And it would be a really hard golf course.

>

> The Shattuck, in NH is 6,764 and a slope of 153 from the tips;

> The Country Club composite course is ~6,600 and a slope of 144 from the blue tees;

> Seminole is 6,600 with a slope of 144;

> Winged Foot is 6,600 with a slope of 140;

>

> But these are basically the hardest golf courses I've ever played...definitely nowhere near average.

 

The Shattuck is ridiculous. Played it a few times years ago and anything off the fairway is essentially a lost ball. Lots of elevation change and forced carries. It's a brutal golf course.

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> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> This isn’t a new course. I assume that doing the math(s) on previous rounds wouldn’t necessarily work is that, as the USGA Course Rating and slope system are not in place yet, then the data from golfers who are not handicapped under this system would not be correctly comparable.

 

So in 20 years, you don't have a collection of the gross scores shot on those 9s from bogey golfers? How? Gross scores are used for slope. Not net. Handicapping is irrelevant unless all the scores you have, have had handicaps already applied to them, making them worthless? Or it was all match play?

 

--kC

Ping 430Max 10k / Callaway UW 17 & 21 / Srixon ZX5 Irons (5-AW) / Vokey SM8 56* & 60*, Callaway, 64*

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Beaver 9 in Breckenridge is 155 from tips (3564) and 141 from blue (3220). Elk 9 is 143 from blue (3312). This course is over 9,000 feet above sea level, so plays shorter than the yardage would indicate...not a lot of water, but plenty of penalty areas, OB and lost ball opportunities.

Does anyone know how USGA factors in altitude?

 

> @Imp said:

> This course isn't a new course, right? Just that it's switching to course/slope from the previous method? If the bogey golfer scores are valid for all those past rounds used to evaluate, then, those numbers are probably very correct. To me, this is simply an exercise in mathmatics and looking at past scratch golfer scores (course rating) vs bogey golfer scores (slope). The data should already exist. It's not like one has to make a judgement call of formal review period/provisional slope by playing the course and waiting for players results to filter in, If it's been open for a while and you have the scores, you have all the data you need to review how players (particularly bogey golfers scores since it's the slope in question) actually play the course, historically.

>

> --kC

 

Using actual scores to verify CR + Slope makes sense, but is this actually what is done in practice???

 

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> @Imp said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > This isn’t a new course. I assume that doing the math(s) on previous rounds wouldn’t necessarily work is that, as the USGA Course Rating and slope system are not in place yet, then the data from golfers who are not handicapped under this system would not be correctly comparable.

>

> So in 20 years, you don't have a collection of the gross scores shot on those 9s from bogey golfers? How? Gross scores are used for slope. Not net. Handicapping is irrelevant unless all the scores you have, have had handicaps already applied to them, making them worthless? Or it was all match play?

>

> --kC

 

The problem with this approach is that you don’t know what a “bogey” golfer is in the old UK system. You might have thousands of scores, but you don’t know what the handicaps of the people shooting those scores was at the time they shot them.

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> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @Imp said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > This isn’t a new course. I assume that doing the math(s) on previous rounds wouldn’t necessarily work is that, as the USGA Course Rating and slope system are not in place yet, then the data from golfers who are not handicapped under this system would not be correctly comparable.

> >

> > So in 20 years, you don't have a collection of the gross scores shot on those 9s from bogey golfers? How? Gross scores are used for slope. Not net. Handicapping is irrelevant unless all the scores you have, have had handicaps already applied to them, making them worthless? Or it was all match play?

> >

> > --kC

>

> The problem with this approach is that you don’t know what a “bogey” golfer is in the old UK system. You might have thousands of scores, but you don’t know what the handicaps of the people shooting those scores was at the time they shot them.

 

> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @Imp said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > This isn’t a new course. I assume that doing the math(s) on previous rounds wouldn’t necessarily work is that, as the USGA Course Rating and slope system are not in place yet, then the data from golfers who are not handicapped under this system would not be correctly comparable.

> >

> > So in 20 years, you don't have a collection of the gross scores shot on those 9s from bogey golfers? How? Gross scores are used for slope. Not net. Handicapping is irrelevant unless all the scores you have, have had handicaps already applied to them, making them worthless? Or it was all match play?

> >

> > --kC

>

> The problem with this approach is that you don’t know what a “bogey” golfer is in the old UK system. You might have thousands of scores, but you don’t know what the handicaps of the people shooting those scores was at the time they shot them.

 

Agreed, also scores by ‘Scratch ‘ golfers are also ‘scratch’ according to the old CONGU system so again the math(s) doesn’t work.

 

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