Does bowing left wrist affect face angle at impact and/or swing path?

Simple question (difficult answer?):

Does bowing (or de-cupping) left wrist affect face angle at impact and/or swing path?

Yes yes.

But how?

> @barnum1 said:

> But how?

Just grab a club with a cupped or flat left wrist and bow it. See the change in the face and angle of the shaft

Many variables in the swing can affect the swing path/face angle. You can have a bowed lead wrist at impact with a path very far to the left or right. You can have a bowed wrist at impact with the face pointed well to the left or right depending on grip as well as the amount of lead forearm supination. Bowing the lead wrist in transition (well before impact) helps to create a functional face angle early in the downswing as well as keep the clubhead behind the hands. By impact, the lead wrist is in the process of moving from flexion to extension.

In general. Extended = Open face. Flexed = closed face. A good video on effect of this on swing. Note how at the 4:30 mark Dana makes sure he flexes his lead wrist in transition.

> @barnum1 said:

> But how?

Go to about the 30 second mark:

https://golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/motorcycle-timing/

Thanks for your answers.

@MPStrat: am I right in thinking that more bow does not necessarily mean more closed club face, but the hands need go "more forward". I guess that is what the mikebender video shows: hands more forward open the club face, so it kind of compensates the more closed club face from the bowing?

@glk and @chigolfer1: nice vidoes, they helped!

> @barnum1 said:

> Thanks for your answers.

> @MPStrat: am I right in thinking that more bow does not necessarily mean more closed club face, but the hands need go "more forward". I guess that is what the mikebender video shows: hands more forward open the club face, so it kind of compensates the more closed club face from the bowing?

> @glk and @chigolfer1: nice vidoes, they helped!

I'm not sure what you mean by "compensates the more closed club face from the bowing"

> @MPStrat said:

>

I'll add one point to this clip.. There will still have to be some supination in good swings through the hitting area, but bowing early puts the club in a much better position so that you don't have to save an excessively open face coming into impact.

> @barnum1 said:

> Thanks for your answers.

> @MPStrat: am I right in thinking that more bow does not necessarily mean more closed club face, but the hands need go "more forward". I guess that is what the mikebender video shows: hands more forward open the club face, so it kind of compensates the more closed club face from the bowing?

No, that wouldn't be right. More bow does mean more closed club face period. Can we ask what instigated this question? Something going on with your swing?

As to the second part of your question, you have it backwards. Bowing/closing the club face allows you to get more open with shaft lean. Getting open with shaft lean opens the club face so if your club face is already open (due to a cupped left wrist for instance at P6), you're going to hit it a mile right if you still try to have shaft lean. What normally happens though is that your mind senses this and, instead you stand up and flip to close down the face.

> @MPStrat said:

> > @barnum1 said:

> > Thanks for your answers.

> > @MPStrat: am I right in thinking that more bow does not necessarily mean more closed club face, but the hands need go "more forward". I guess that is what the mikebender video shows: hands more forward open the club face, so it kind of compensates the more closed club face from the bowing?

> > @glk and @chigolfer1: nice vidoes, they helped!

>

> I'm not sure what you mean by "compensates the more closed club face from the bowing"

>

>

Yeah compensation isnt the right word, proper match up is better term. If you get lots of shaft lean, you need to match up the wrist conditions to get square face at impact

Go to 4:40 where they explain that to get shaft lean, you can't have an open club face at P6. You need an "incentive" to get shaft lean and not flip. Not exactly what you're asking but all related:

I guess I wasn't clear, because your comments confirm my thoughts. "Proper match" sounds like a good term.

The reason I'm asking is that I had a horrible start on a round, 4 sockets in 5 holes. I'm not sure where the thought came from, but I suspected my club face was very open (just a gut feeling, not sure). Then I remembered something about cupped wrists and open club face, so I just tried bowing and then everything fell into place.

But I wanted to understand this more, that's the reason for this post.

So now I think I understand the club face angle. Any thoughts on how/if the swing path is affected?

Monte Scheinblun who posts often here proposes that one of the ingredients to shallowing the shaft plane is the proper bowing of lead wrist and ulnar deviation of the wrists.

> @wmblake2000 said:

> Monte Scheinblun who posts often here proposes that one of the ingredients to shallowing the shaft plane is the proper bowing of lead wrist and ulnar deviation of the wrists.

I thought you don't want ulnar deviation to shallow as you're just manufacturing the shallowness. With the proper pivot the club shallows naturally.

As noted in discussion, the face can have an effect on what one has to do to square at impact and thus affect path. That said, lots of other things affect the path where even having a “ good” club face position isn’t going to help. People swing ott, too shallow, fail to unhinge, kick the club head out early and swing out to in, . . .and at that point club face / path is just going to usually determine how big of a block/pull/hook/slice etc one has - or maybe things line up and that ball goes to the target. To me, training a neutral repeatable path is important to playing good golf - still a lot to manage such as low point, Aoa, and face but having very inconsistent path at impact (and especially one that is too in/out or vice versa) just makes the game too hard cause who knows where the ball is going.

> @Golfjack said:

> > @wmblake2000 said:

> > Monte Scheinblun who posts often here proposes that one of the ingredients to shallowing the shaft plane is the proper bowing of lead wrist and ulnar deviation of the wrists.

>

> I thought you don't want ulnar deviation to shallow as you're just manufacturing the shallowness. With the proper pivot the club shallows naturally.

ulnar is important for at least two reasons, shallowing and shaft lean. No UD and you kick the shaft out early and most likely release with with the trail shoulder going internal, etc. oh, and it gets the club to the ball.

> @Golfjack said:

> > @wmblake2000 said:

> > Monte Scheinblun who posts often here proposes that one of the ingredients to shallowing the shaft plane is the proper bowing of lead wrist and ulnar deviation of the wrists.

>

> I thought you don't want ulnar deviation to shallow as you're just manufacturing the shallowness. With the proper pivot the club shallows naturally.

I know people experience 'proper pivot' shallowing the club'... but I could never get that approach to work. I also am of the belief that I need to actively do a few things with arms and hands in transition, that they are not just passive riders of the pivot. The flex of lead wrist is a major thing for me. I tend to think more of 'arms/hands moving away from sternum (eg, sustain width)' than ulnar deviation, but I think these are closely related moves.

Some folks have the proper instinct and automatically ulnar deviate while they pivot. I used to dump the club behind me by hips sliding forward and giving the goat the business while moving my legs like elvis in order to shallow the club (improperly). Now my trigger is to keep the left shoulder down and ulnar deviate in transition. Guess what, it automatically fixed the other problems I was having and simplified my swing. And the more I practice and drill the feel, the less and less I need to consciously think about it and the ulnar deviation becomes second nature.

> @Precis1on said:

> Some folks have the proper instinct and automatically ulnar deviate while they pivot. I used to dump the club behind me by hips sliding forward and giving the goat the business while moving my legs like elvis in order to shallow the club (improperly). Now my trigger is to keep the left shoulder down and ulnar deviate in transition. Guess what, it automatically fixed the other problems I was having and simplified my swing. And the more I practice and drill the feel, the less and less I need to consciously think about it and the ulnar deviation becomes second nature.

Thats a very good comment. Ulnar deviation in combination with bowing/flexing the lead wrist is what shallows the shaft (appearance) in transition and early downswing. Jacobs 3D Golf (working with Nesbit) said the same thing in his latest youtube clip.

If you keep the left wrist cocked upwards (radial) the shaft appears more steep coming down. Radial cocking leads often to a more cupped appearance of the lead wrist and seems to open the club face in relation to the hands and swing plane.

Just watched that video..didn’t particularly care for it. I’m sure he was trying to be clear as mud for a reason ($).

> @Golfjack said:

> > @wmblake2000 said:

> > Monte Scheinblun who posts often here proposes that one of the ingredients to shallowing the shaft plane is the proper bowing of lead wrist and ulnar deviation of the wrists.

>

> I thought you don't want ulnar deviation to shallow as you're just manufacturing the shallowness. With the proper pivot the club shallows naturally.

It depends on who you ask. If you are in the camp that a proper pivot involves regaining flexion in transition, that in itself is a steepening move, thus you need to shallow with the arms.

He doesn't see how just UD is going to shallow the shaft. It's really the left wrist flexion.

To answer your other question, the video I just linked and Monte also say that left wrist flexion helps shallow:

Not sure what's going on but all of a sudden there are tons of videos on this. As Eric points out and as has been discussed before, UD allows you to flatten your wrist. Anatomically, it is very difficult to have a flat wrist if your wrists are also very hinged. Something that isn't discussed much about DJ's move but do people think he has some sort of unique thing going on with his hands/joints that allows him to have that crazy bow along with a "full" backswing?

Lots of folks like to talk about "more than one way to swing a club" and "impact is all that matters". Realistically, this is one of those things that you see occur in lots of elite players, so not surprised to see it being advocated more and more, especially with all the 3D/motion capture data being collected now.

Pretty sure Dustin just trained (just felt natural) himself to do it at a early age so he has the flexibility required