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Mizzy factory lie angles off from requested specs


DeeBee30

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So, I recently received a new set of JPX 919 Tours from Mizuno and asked for 1* up since that, along with the PX LZ 5.5 shafts, gave me the best shot pattern at the Mizuno fitting day (hitting off a mat, using Trackman and Shaft Optimizer). After several rounds, I noticed that pretty much every shot was overdrawing and missing left.

 

I finally relented and took the clubs into PGASS to get the lie angles set back to factory specs. I looked up factory specs and gave them a sheet showing what each club should be. I also included a column and asked them to measure and write in what the pre-adjustment lie angles were. Turns out that Mizuno's adjustments were anywhere between .5* to 1* off from what I initially requested on 5 of the 7 irons.

 

I've often read that you should get the specs checked when clubs arrive from the factory, but I didn't really buy into it until now.

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A half a degree of lie can't possibly have any discernible effect on your swing or the shot outcomes. In fact, most people can't reliably repeat a lie-angle measurement to the nearest half-degree.

 

If you took those clubs to a different store, there would almost certainly be several differences in the two sets of measurements.

 

I suspect Mizuno, like most OEM's, have something like a plus or minus one degree tolerance on lie angle.

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@"North Butte" In reality, the net effect was that the clubs were actually between 1.5*-2.5* upright compared to factory lie angles. Even looking at the clubs at address, I could see noticeable "toe-up". The post-adjustment shot results were much more in line with my typical ball flight, so it did make a difference.

 

Your "tolerance" comment will prompt me to investigate whether that's actually a stipulation from Mizuno...if so, then I'd argue what the heck is the point of giving customers the option to request custom specs if they're just going to get it close?

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Always get the specs checked when picking up your new sticks.

I've learned the hard way.

If you play and practice a lot, you may want them checked once a year ( although many WRX'rs don't keep their irons that long) especially forged or softer metals.

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Rogue ST Max LS Oban Devotion 6/03 10.5, -1* @45.25" 

Paradym 3HL  Kai’li 60 R
Ping G410 19*,  22* & 26* Riptide CB 80 5.5
Srixon ZX5 MKII 6-AW, SF i80cw R,  Or Cobra Forged Tec Black 6-GW, SF i95cw R   
PM Grind 2.0 54 and 58

Bettinardi Innovai Rev 6.0  33” 

 E.R.C. Soft TT/ Chrome Soft TT / TM Tour Response '20

 

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He said .5* - 1.0* off what was requested. Personally, only .5* is acceptable and within tolerances of measuring equipment. 1.0* is unacceptable anywhere. But still, buyer beware!!

 

BT

 

Dr#1 Cobra Speedzone 10.5 – HZRDUS Yellow HC 65 TX @ 46”
Dr#2 Mizuno STZ 220 9.5 (10.5) - HZRDUS Smoke IM10 65 Low TX @ 46"

Mizuno ST190 15 - HZRDUS Smoke Yellow 70 TS @ 43"
Mizuno STZ 220 18- HZRDUS Smoke Yellow 70 TS @ 42"
Mizuno MP15 4-PW - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
Cobra MIM Wedges 52, 56 & 60 – stock KBS Hi-Rev @ 35.5”

Odyssey V-Line Stroke Lab 33.5"
Grips - Grip Master Classic Wrap Midsize

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> @Ri_Redneck said:

> He said .5* - 1.0* off what was requested. Personally, only .5* is acceptable and within tolerances of measuring equipment. 1.0* is unacceptable anywhere. But still, buyer beware!!

 

Yeah but if, say, one or two clubs out of seven were measured as being 1.0 degrees different that could easily be that Mizuno was off by 0.5 in one direction and the PGASS guy's measurment was off by 0.5 in the opposite direction. Voila, a 1.0 degree discrepancy!

 

If you're going to worry about the possibility of a club or two being one degree more upright then you're going to have to be very careful who you choose to measure and adjust them and you're probably going to want to have them rechecked every few months.

 

Of course maybe he meant to say 2.5 degrees...

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> @DeeBee30 said:

> So, I recently received a new set of JPX 919 Tours from Mizuno and asked for 1* up since that, along with the PX LZ 5.5 shafts, gave me the best shot pattern at the Mizuno fitting day (hitting off a mat, using Trackman and Shaft Optimizer). After several rounds, I noticed that pretty much every shot was overdrawing and missing left.

>

> I finally relented and took the clubs into PGASS to get the lie angles set back to factory specs. I looked up factory specs and gave them a sheet showing what each club should be. I also included a column and asked them to measure and write in what the pre-adjustment lie angles were. Turns out that Mizuno's adjustments were anywhere between .5* to 1* off from what I initially requested on 5 of the 7 irons.

>

> I've often read that you should get the specs checked when clubs arrive from the factory, but I didn't really buy into it until now.

 

1. There's tolerances built in to anything and everything.

2. Not all companies use the same bending machines. That makes it a wildcard.

3. I've had Mizuno make mistakes with my custom orders for my customers (I always check), but they're actually pretty good usually.

4. I wouldn't trust anyone at the PGA SS.

5. The only way to really ensure you get what you want is to do it yourself or stand there with the dude doing the bending.

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I had a set built ( delivered in under a week) and the 8 was off both loft and lie a bit, which explains why I had a bigger gap than expected between it and the 7. But the rest was good to go. I play 1/2" over and the sw was right where I expected. Overall I'm very happy with the build and I would say better than most.

 

 

 

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> @scottaz said:

> I had a set built ( delivered in under a week) and the 8 was off both loft and lie a bit, which explains why I had a bigger gap than expected between it and the 7. But the rest was good to go. I play 1/2" over and the sw was right where I expected. Overall I'm very happy with the build and I would say better than most.

 

How does the OEM adjust for swingweight to make them standard when someone orders a custom set that would otherwise change SW?

TM Stealth Plus 10.5 Ventus TR Velocore Red 5

Ping G425 Max 5 FW 17.5 Ventus Velocore Red 7

Srixon ZX MKII 3UT MMT 95

Callaway X Forged CB 21' 4-PW Modus 120

Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 and 60.5 DG S200
Ping Anser 2
MCC +4 Grips
Kirkland Performance+ Ball

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> @gunmetal said:

> > @DeeBee30 said:

> > So, I recently received a new set of JPX 919 Tours from Mizuno and asked for 1* up since that, along with the PX LZ 5.5 shafts, gave me the best shot pattern at the Mizuno fitting day (hitting off a mat, using Trackman and Shaft Optimizer). After several rounds, I noticed that pretty much every shot was overdrawing and missing left.

> >

> > I finally relented and took the clubs into PGASS to get the lie angles set back to factory specs. I looked up factory specs and gave them a sheet showing what each club should be. I also included a column and asked them to measure and write in what the pre-adjustment lie angles were. Turns out that Mizuno's adjustments were anywhere between .5* to 1* off from what I initially requested on 5 of the 7 irons.

> >

> > I've often read that you should get the specs checked when clubs arrive from the factory, but I didn't really buy into it until now.

>

> 1. There's tolerances built in to anything and everything.

> 2. Not all companies use the same bending machines. That makes it a wildcard.

> 3. I've had Mizuno make mistakes with my custom orders for my customers (I always check), but they're actually pretty good usually.

> 4. I wouldn't trust anyone at the PGA SS.

> 5. The only way to really ensure you get what you want is to do it yourself or stand there with the dude doing the bending.

 

The problem is that it seems to be they DONT bend anything, not even on Custom orders, they take the heads they have at hand strait from production, cut, glue, shipping-...what ever tolerances there is from production of heads (the best is withing plus minus 1*), thats what the customer gets. The risk for them is close to zero, golf is not a easy game and only a few check specs and find the truth, the player blames himself when his clubs dont work. I have NEVER seen a set from OEM where all clubs in the set had correct specs as they was suppose to be, and like someone above is writing, if tolerances is 1* or more both ways, why do they even offer custom specs like 1* up right?, and why dont they dare to tell what tolerances they have as their standard? If you buy a set locally, make sure specs is adjusted correct before delivery, it ALWAYS needed, and if you buy from the net, you will have to pay for it locally. OEM quality on club specs is crap.

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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> @DeeBee30 said:

> @"North Butte" In reality, the net effect was that the clubs were actually between 1.5*-2.5* upright compared to factory lie angles. Even looking at the clubs at address, I could see noticeable "toe-up". The post-adjustment shot results were much more in line with my typical ball flight, so it did make a difference.

>

> Your "tolerance" comment will prompt me to investigate whether that's actually a stipulation from Mizuno...i**f so, then I'd argue what the heck is the point of giving customers the option to request custom specs if they're just going to get it close?

**

Because not every machine is going to be the same. It needs to be calibrated halfway regularly and in the exact same manner as the other machine to get close. Just get them bent to spec according to whatever machine you are using and go out and have fun. As another said earlier, you'd be very hard pressed to notice 1* off whatever it was supposed to be, at least not to the extent you were claiming (long left). The amount of toe up makes no difference either as long the toe comes in flush during the swing. You could have a 90* toe up (where the toe is literally pointed skywards) if you somehow managed to get the club back to parallel with the ground during your swing. Toe up is the biggest myth in golf and is used by crap instructors to explain why a player is hitting a hook when they can't figure out a way to neutralize the player's path. Always remember that in a properly struck shot a ball is long gone before the club even touches grass.

Taylormade R510TP - Speeder 757 Sonartec NP-99 14* and 17* - NV Green 85 Nickent Genex 3DX 21* - Dynamic Gold SL Titleist 660 4-P - Dynamic Gold Cleveland 54* and 59* - Dynamic Gold Scotty Cameron Teryllium

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> @"North Butte" said:

> A half a degree of lie can't possibly have any discernible effect on your swing or the shot outcomes. In fact, most people can't reliably repeat a lie-angle measurement to the nearest half-degree.

>

> If you took those clubs to a different store, there would almost certainly be several differences in the two sets of measurements.

>

> I suspect Mizuno, like most OEM's, have something like a plus or minus one degree tolerance on lie angle.

 

I don't entirely agree with much of what you stated. It is true that there can be a degree of error in lie and loft angle measurements, but it's entirely dependent on the spec gauge/tool being used and the experience skill of the operator. I regularly check and re-check loft and lie angles and am able to duplicate my measurements with reliable repeatability. When you bring your clubs to the chain store you really don't know what exactly you're getting.

 

Regarding the impact of lie angle changes. I would have to disagree regarding the "outcome". With the shorter irons and wedges, a 0.5* change does have a clear impact on many golfers. 1.0* is a major change for those clubs. Many accomplished golfers will adjust their stance/setup based on the lie angle they see in the club. This change in stance/setup will follow on with changes to the swing dynamics (face angle, path, AoA) at impact. Don't underestimate what lie angle changes can do to help a golfer improve their swing. Don't assume that it will be the only variable that changes for the dynamic impact conditions.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @gunmetal said:

> > > @DeeBee30 said:

> > > So, I recently received a new set of JPX 919 Tours from Mizuno and asked for 1* up since that, along with the PX LZ 5.5 shafts, gave me the best shot pattern at the Mizuno fitting day (hitting off a mat, using Trackman and Shaft Optimizer). After several rounds, I noticed that pretty much every shot was overdrawing and missing left.

> > >

> > > I finally relented and took the clubs into PGASS to get the lie angles set back to factory specs. I looked up factory specs and gave them a sheet showing what each club should be. I also included a column and asked them to measure and write in what the pre-adjustment lie angles were. Turns out that Mizuno's adjustments were anywhere between .5* to 1* off from what I initially requested on 5 of the 7 irons.

> > >

> > > I've often read that you should get the specs checked when clubs arrive from the factory, but I didn't really buy into it until now.

> >

> > 1. There's tolerances built in to anything and everything.

> > 2. Not all companies use the same bending machines. That makes it a wildcard.

> > 3. I've had Mizuno make mistakes with my custom orders for my customers (I always check), but they're actually pretty good usually.

> > 4. I wouldn't trust anyone at the PGA SS.

> > 5. The only way to really ensure you get what you want is to do it yourself or stand there with the dude doing the bending.

>

> The problem is that it seems to be they DONT bend anything, not even on Custom orders, they take the heads they have at hand strait from production, cut, glue, shipping-...what ever tolerances there is from production of heads (the best is withing plus minus 1*), thats what the customer gets. The risk for them is close to zero, golf is not a easy game and only a few check specs and find the truth, the player blames himself when his clubs dont work. I have NEVER seen a set from OEM where all clubs in the set had correct specs as they was suppose to be, and like someone above is writing, if tolerances is 1* or more both ways, why do they even offer custom specs like 1* up right?, and why dont they dare to tell what tolerances they have as their standard? If you buy a set locally, make sure specs is adjusted correct before delivery, it ALWAYS needed, and if you buy from the net, you will have to pay for it locally. OEM quality on club specs is crap.

 

What? I've seen the Ping assembly line where every lie adjustment is checked by a computer before being OK'd and Mizuno pretty much always nails mine which are quite a bit different than standard. Sure they aren't perfect and I would always have them checked but they are better than what you are describing.

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Titleist TSr3 19* Ventus Black 10-TX
Mizuno MP-20 4-9 PX 6.5

Mizuno T20 47-07 PX 6.5

Mizuno T22 52-09 56-10 PX 6.5

Vokey SM9 60-04T PX Wedge 6.5
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I never order anything but standard lie angle. Unpack, put them down, go get them bent til they are perfect. They’re always off anyway. Ping would be my only exception.

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Honma TR21 HY 18* VIZARD UT 7

Honma TR21 HY 21* VIZARD UT 8

Honma TR21X 5-11 VIZARD IBWF 100

HighToe MG3 54* VIZARD IB 120

HighToe MG3 58*/13 VIZARD IB 120

MackMade custom Slide MMT putter                         

 

 

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Some good discussion here that seems to be all over the map. Despite some of the opinions stated, the extra upright lie angle **definitely** affected the direction and shape of my ball flight. Maybe the face was just a bit more closed at address than I could see; maybe the face was rotating a bit more closed through the impact zone; maybe the heel was actually hitting the face moments before or during impact and rotating the toe around for a more closed position.

 

All I know is that, since getting the clubs bent back to standard lie (which is really a degree flat compared to most other manufacturers), I'm back to somewhere between a relatively straight ball and a gentle draw of a few yards with most well-struck shots. Now I can go back to aiming between the flag and right edge and land it on the green instead of either (1) having to aim well right of the target or (2) overcooking everything left of the green.

 

Everyone's individual experience may differ, but this was mine.

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My 919t's are due in seven days from now

Will advise how they measure up when they show

Ordered heavy heads and swingweights, plus 3/4, 1 flat, 1 strong

Ping G400 LST 11* Ventus Black TR 5x

Ping G400 3w 15.1* GD AD IZ 5x

Ping G400 7w 19.5* Ventus Red 6x 

Ping G425 4h 22* Blueboard HY 80x

Ping i210 6i & s55 7i - PW Steelfiber 110s

Ping Glide Wrx 49*, 54*, 59*ES, Tour W 64* SF 125s

EvnRoll ER9
 

 

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So what was the actual "error" on each club's lie angle? I mean what were the lie angles relative to the "one degree up" that you custom ordered? Was it a mix of 0 error, 0.5 error and 1.0 error like you orginally said?

 

Sounds more like you decided after you got them that you don't trust the "one degree up" that you ordered them. If they were mostly within half a degree of the spec you ordered, but then you changed your mind about the lie you wanted that is hardly a Mizuno problem. That's a changed your mind problem.

 

You're far from the first person to get talked into something at a fitting and then decide later that you're more comfortable with the specs you've always used in the past. A friend of mine got fitted in some 2.25 degree up Pings (by the way Ping fittings seem to very frequently fit people into very upright lies) and they were an awful disaster. He couldn't believe he got talked into actually buying them and went back to normal lies.

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> @"North Butte" said:

> A half a degree of lie can't possibly have any discernible effect on your swing or the shot outcomes. In fact, most people can't reliably repeat a lie-angle measurement to the nearest half-degree.

>

> If you took those clubs to a different store, there would almost certainly be several differences in the two sets of measurements.

>

> I suspect Mizuno, like most OEM's, have something like a plus or minus one degree tolerance on lie angle.

 

I agree. Take them somewhere else to be measured and I guarantee he will get different numbers.

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I order my desired lies/lofts from factory then have them adjusted on the same floor mounted Mitchell machine I’ve used for years. Way I see it, regardless of who’s right the specs I’ve found on “that particular” machine work so I can sleep at night. And yes, every single manufacturer has a different standard. If you question the first thing they will say is we bend on Green Machines and there’s a 1 degree variance. Therefore, unless you measured on the same equipment we use there’s no way to know.

Irons: 19' Cobra CB's
Drivers: Titleist TS3 & Cobra F9
Fairway: Titleist 917F2
Hybrid: A-Grind
2 iron: Ping Rapture
Wedges: Ping Gorge 2.0 Stealth's
Putter: Evnroll 9.1
Balls: ProV1

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1° up from Mizuno standard, or 1° up from “standard”?

 

Mizuno historically has set their “standard” lie angle slightly flatter than other brands do.

 

Just curious.

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Callaway Epic Flash SZ 15° HZRDUS Smoke Black 70g
Callaway Apex '19 3H HZRDUS Handcrafted HYB 85g
PXG 0311P Gen 6 Black Label Elite 4-G KBS Tour Lite S / Miura Baby Blades 3-P Steelfiber 110cw / PING ISI Nickel 1-L G Loomis reg flex
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> @"Big Ben" said:

> I order my desired lies/lofts from factory then have them adjusted on the same floor mounted Mitchell machine I’ve used for years. Way I see it, regardless of who’s right the specs I’ve found on “that particular” machine work so I can sleep at night. And yes, every single manufacturer has a different standard. If you question the first thing they will say is we bend on Green Machines and there’s a 1 degree variance. Therefore, unless you measured on the same equipment we use there’s no way to know.

 

Don’t want to speak for you but I’m sure you’ve found this too since you’ve used the same machine forever and I know you’ve been through a couple clubs in your day. Even though we mount the club in the machine and get the angle right, it can look different depending on the design of the sole when we address it. More or less heal to toe camber can change the way it looks depending on the sole design.

To the OP...if the lies are off small amounts to what you thought standard was...it’s just normal anymore. Every standard is different and tolerances allow for this. That’s why like BigBen I take mine to the same machine after to get them where I want them.

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Cobra Aero LS 9 Fuji Evo IV 569 X

Honma TR21 15* VIZARD FP7 Stiff

Honma TR21 HY 18* VIZARD UT 7

Honma TR21 HY 21* VIZARD UT 8

Honma TR21X 5-11 VIZARD IBWF 100

HighToe MG3 54* VIZARD IB 120

HighToe MG3 58*/13 VIZARD IB 120

MackMade custom Slide MMT putter                         

 

 

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> @mogc60 said:

> > @"Big Ben" said:

> > I order my desired lies/lofts from factory then have them adjusted on the same floor mounted Mitchell machine I’ve used for years. Way I see it, regardless of who’s right the specs I’ve found on “that particular” machine work so I can sleep at night. And yes, every single manufacturer has a different standard. If you question the first thing they will say is we bend on Green Machines and there’s a 1 degree variance. Therefore, unless you measured on the same equipment we use there’s no way to know.

>

> Don’t want to speak for you but I’m sure you’ve found this too since you’ve used the same machine forever and I know you’ve been through a couple clubs in your day. Even though we mount the club in the machine and get the angle right, it can look different depending on the design of the sole when we address it. More or less heal to toe camber can change the way it looks depending on the sole design.

> To the OP...if the lies are off small amounts to what you thought standard was...it’s just normal anymore. Every standard is different and tolerances allow for this. That’s why like BigBen I take mine to the same machine after to get them where I want them.

 

For sure, 100%

Irons: 19' Cobra CB's
Drivers: Titleist TS3 & Cobra F9
Fairway: Titleist 917F2
Hybrid: A-Grind
2 iron: Ping Rapture
Wedges: Ping Gorge 2.0 Stealth's
Putter: Evnroll 9.1
Balls: ProV1

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      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
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