Do OEMS even care anymore about getting "specs" correct anymore?

WardonationWardonation Members Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
edited Jul 18, 2019 6:11pm in WRX Club Techs #1

It has become a total joke IMO. Pick any of the OEMS, shoot even Ping and Titleist have messed up my orders recently. Forget about trying to get swing weight correct, you have lofts and lies all over the place as well as crooked grips put on all the time. I can go "on and on" but the reality I have come to expect it and it is total bummer.

Comments

  • third-times-a-charmthird-times-a-charm Members Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I've also noticed this recently in the last 2 years or so. It seems every major OEM has many complains about this.

  • Hot Rod 71Hot Rod 71 #TheWRX ClubWRX, BST Volunteer Mods Posts: 8,923 ClubWRX
    edited Jul 18, 2019 11:31pm #3

    I just rebuilt a set of TM P760s for someone and the stock specs were way off. Clubs were ordered bone stock through TM. Swingweights were all over the map with with a mix of D2, D3 and D4 - the 9 iron was C9. Lengths were off as well - some were 1/4" short and some were 1/8" short. I haven't checked loft and lie angles yet.

    Post edited by Hot Rod 71 on
    PING G400 LST 10* - Graphite Design Tour AD TP 6X
    TaylorMade M1 15* Tour Issue - Aldila Tour Blue 75X
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20* - Diamana S+ 80X
    Callaway X-Forged 4-P - DGTI 120 S400
    Callaway MD4 50, 54, 58 - DGTI S400
    Machine M1A
    Titleist Pro V1 Yellow
  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 20,089 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 18, 2019 6:39pm #4

    The only times I buy anything new, I order forged with grips left off, and make sure there is a beforehand arrangement with the store that they will do a loft/lie check and grip in house once they arrive. I also buy some lead tape.

    Titleist 915D3 9.5
    Titleist 917Fd @ 14.25
    Mizuno Clk 19, 22
    Titleist 716mb 4-Pw
    Vokey SM7 52, 58
    Bettinardi Studio Stock 8
    Titleist ProV1

  • WardonationWardonation Members Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I would say major offenders are TM, CALLY, PXG, MIZUNO, TITLEIST & PING

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,192 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MadGolfer76 said:
    The only times I buy anything new, I order forged with grips left off, and make sure there is a beforehand arrangement with the store that they will do a loft/lie check and grip in house once they arrive. I also buy some lead tape.

    -Thats the only way to do it, unless you can build clubs yourself, and to be sure, order them 2/8" longer than you need then in case they mess up and cut them to short.

    But...they will always be off a little, and we cant expect SW values to be right when they dont even cut them to the correct play lengths or if loft and lie is all over the place, so to be able to judge SW value, the other parameters must be set right first...and they might still be off or even worse when that is done.

    My last OEM set was 2005 X-Tour Callaways, and a FTI driver the year after (the ugly one), but all clubs after that is clubs ive made myself so i will not even consider OEMs unless its a project to be re-done where i dont have to worry about how they put it together.

    Thats why i do my best to help others in tech questions, i want more players to be able to help them self, and club making as a profession is about to die out, its not enough money in it before we are "over and beyond" what most of us would pay for it, so in the near future, you will either have to accept "tolerances" they DONT tell, or be able to fix it yourself.

  • shakeyshakey OvenWRX 1 Members Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wardonation said:
    I would say major offenders are TM, CALLY, PXG, MIZUNO, TITLEIST & PING

    Ping used to be the one company I always felt good about. But lately it’s been a crap shoot. Wrong color for lie angles on orders. I ordered a Tensei Org 70 Stiff in my G410 3 wood and got 60 Reg.

    I don’t want to even get started on PXG and their bore consistency.

    Ping G410 Plus 10.5 w/Tensei Orange 60 S
    Ping G410 3(14.5) w/Diamana Ahina 70 S
    NIKE VR Pro II Hybrid 3 (21) w/PX Graphite 5.5
    Nike VPC 4-PW w/Modus 120 Stiff

    TM Milled Grind Black 52 SB and 58 LB w/Modus Tour 125 Wedge
    Ping Vault 2.0 Dale Anser

    TM TP5 Pix
  • mogc60mogc60 Members Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 19, 2019 3:57am #9

    I don’t know how anyone could put on a grip and not line it up themselves. I don’t want my grips straight...I want them how I like them. Straight to me is hooked to someone else...and 90% of the time a grip from a oem will be several degrees open.
    As far as specs from the oems...yes it’s getting worse all the time. I’ve tore a lot of shafts out of heads in my life and never seen more tip weights than I have the past few years. The head weights are all over the place as are loft and lies.
    I’ve always been this way but even more so now...I take each club as it’s own. I check the lofts and get them where I want them and I check lie angle club by club and get each one right. It may not end up .5* gaps either

    CALLAWAY EPIC FLASH SZ 9 EV BLACK 75 6.5 44 1/4”
    CALLAWAY EPIC FLASH SZ 15 MATRIX HD9 STRONG 41.5”
    WILSON FG5 TOUR 17* RIP PHENOM 100 S
    SRIXON Z FORGED 3-PW CATALYST 100 6.5
    CLEVELAND RTX4 50* CATALYST 100 6.0
    CLEVELAND RTX4 54* CATALYST 100 6.0
    CLEVELAND RTX4 58* MODUS 120X
    SEEMORE mFGP20 PLATINUM 38”
    SNELL MTB-X

  • noodle3872noodle3872 Chilliwack B.C. CanadaMembers Posts: 2,772 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m happy to pay the extra money to have my clubs built by Ben @ The Tour Van. He worked on Tour for Nike and is a perfectionist.

    Taylormade M6 driver MCA Tensei CK Pro Blue 60 S Flex
    Taylormade M6 fairway wood MCA Tensei CK Pro Blue 70 S Flex
    Taylormade M4 19° hybrid MCA OT Tour Hybrid 80 S Flex
    Taylormade M4 22° hybrid MCA OT Tour Hybrid 90 S Flex
    Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal Pro 5-PW Modus3 Tour 105 S flex
    Mizuno S18 Gunmetal Wedges 50-07, 54-12, 58-12 and 62-08 Modus3 115 Wedge
    Scotty Cameron Futura 5.5M
    Scotty Cameron Futura 7M
    Titleist Yellow Pro V1
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,192 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @toc said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    @MadGolfer76 said:
    The only times I buy anything new, I order forged with grips left off, and make sure there is a beforehand arrangement with the store that they will do a loft/lie check and grip in house once they arrive. I also buy some lead tape.

    -Thats the only way to do it, unless you can build clubs yourself, and to be sure, order them 2/8" longer than you need then in case they mess up and cut them to short.

    But...they will always be off a little, and we cant expect SW values to be right when they dont even cut them to the correct play lengths or if loft and lie is all over the place, so to be able to judge SW value, the other parameters must be set right first...and they might still be off or even worse when that is done.

    My last OEM set was 2005 X-Tour Callaways, and a FTI driver the year after (the ugly one), but all clubs after that is clubs ive made myself so i will not even consider OEMs unless its a project to be re-done where i dont have to worry about how they put it together.

    Thats why i do my best to help others in tech questions, i want more players to be able to help them self, and club making as a profession is about to die out, its not enough money in it before we are "over and beyond" what most of us would pay for it, so in the near future, you will either have to accept "tolerances" they DONT tell, or be able to fix it yourself.

    I usually go 1/4” over as I find 2/8” is too long

    On my ruler, 1/4" and 2/8" is the same, so how can it be any different on yours?

  • benno_rbenno_r Members Posts: 800 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I recently ordered a set of Wilson c300 forged. I checked length, SW, lies and lofts on all 8. Length and loft were spot on. Lies were +/- 0.5deg. Variance for SW was +/- 1pt. I ended up rebuilding them as I couldn't order them with my preferred shafts, only 1 was built with a tip weight.

    Considering this retails for au$100/club less than AP2/919 forged etc, I was mightily impressed.

    Cobra F9 - Accra CS1 60 M3
    Cobra Bio Cell 4w - Accra CS1 70 M3
    Mizuno JPX850 - Altus Hybrid
    Wilson c300 forged 4-GW - Paderson Kevlar Green 110
    GrindWorks 54/58
    Toulon - with Edel / Lajosi / Ping / Xenon / Odyssey / Black Lab on possible rotation
  • GooseHookGooseHook Keep it Fraiche Members Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wardonation said:
    I would say major offenders are TM, CALLY, PXG, MIZUNO, TITLEIST & PING

    Clearly you've never ordered irons direct from Srixon. When I got my Z785s last year, my .25" short order arrived up to 1/2" longer than standard on 4/6 clubs, the lie angles were off, and three of the clubs had lofts 2 degrees stronger than standard spec.

    M5 9.0°, 757 
    Steelhead XR 16°, Atmos Blue 8x
    Mizuno MP Fli Hi 21°, Recoil 110

    X Forged '18  5-P, PX 6.5
    MD Forged 50/54/58
    SM6 62M

    Piretti Potenza
    Tour BX



  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,192 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @GooseHook said:

    @Wardonation said:
    I would say major offenders are TM, CALLY, PXG, MIZUNO, TITLEIST & PING

    Clearly you've never ordered irons direct from Srixon. When I got my Z785s last year, my .25" short order arrived up to 1/2" longer than standard on 4/6 clubs, the lie angles were off, and three of the clubs had lofts 2 degrees stronger than standard spec.

    Does Srixon assemble their clubs in Japan , China or another place ?
    Mizuno used to be rather good, but after they started assemble for Europe in Ireland....we can no longer look at them as "a Quality product from Japan", it still designed there, but destroyed in Ireland.

  • GooseHookGooseHook Keep it Fraiche Members Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Howard Jones said:

    @GooseHook said:

    @Wardonation said:
    I would say major offenders are TM, CALLY, PXG, MIZUNO, TITLEIST & PING

    Clearly you've never ordered irons direct from Srixon. When I got my Z785s last year, my .25" short order arrived up to 1/2" longer than standard on 4/6 clubs, the lie angles were off, and three of the clubs had lofts 2 degrees stronger than standard spec.

    Does Srixon assemble their clubs in Japan , China or another place ?
    Mizuno used to be rather good, but after they started assemble for Europe in Ireland....we can no longer look at them as "a Quality product from Japan", it still designed there, but destroyed in Ireland.

    As far as I know, if you order in the US Srixon assembles in California.

    Mizuno USA assembles in Georgia, I have had good experiences with them but haven't ordered in several years.

    M5 9.0°, 757 
    Steelhead XR 16°, Atmos Blue 8x
    Mizuno MP Fli Hi 21°, Recoil 110

    X Forged '18  5-P, PX 6.5
    MD Forged 50/54/58
    SM6 62M

    Piretti Potenza
    Tour BX



  • TheInfidelTheInfidel Gotta let the Big Dog eat.... Members Posts: 1,540 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    TM & Cally probably go toe to toe for the worst in this category, I've seem some horrible loft/lie configs from them on new stock. Stuff ships straight from China and they do next to no tolerance checks that we would rely on.


    Ping G400 9* Project X Hzrdus Black 6.5 (+16g head weight)
    Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 18*, True Temper Bi Matrix RXi X 
    Adams Idea A7 22* UST V2 Hybrid X +0.5'
    Mizuno JPX 900 Forged, Project X LZ 6.5 +0.5' 4-PW
    Mizuno S18 50* Project X LZ 6.0 +0.5'
    Nike Engage Raw 54* S400 +0.5'
    Nike Engage Raw 58* S400 +0.5'
    Odyssey Dual Force 990 

  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Members Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s not that they don’t care they just have to big of an acceptable tolerance.

  • J13J13 Dad golf Members Posts: 15,574 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @TheInfidel said:
    TM & Cally probably go toe to toe for the worst in this category, I've seem some horrible loft/lie configs from them on new stock. Stuff ships straight from China and they do next to no tolerance checks that we would rely on.

    Callaway Customs has been great for me when ordering and pretty much on spec. Overall though, TM and Cally sell the most hence they have the largest volume of clubs offspec. Srixon is another company that' ive had a lot of success with in terms of head weights (irons).

    Callaway Epic Flash Triple Diamond 9* / Mitsubishi Tensei White 70TX
    Callaway EF 3+ w/ HZRDUS Black 75 6.5
    Srixon 745's 4-PW / Modus Tour 120 TX
    Callaway MD3 50, 54, 60 / Modus 125
    Odyssey Stroke Lab Double Wide Flow Neck 35.5" (counter weight removed)
    Srixon Zstar XV
    GolfWRX WITB Podcast - Irons reveal 11/14/18 http://www.golfwrx.c...utm_content=sub
    GolfWrx WITB Podcast 2017 : http://www.golfwrx.com/482668/tgtg-golfwrx-forum-member-j13-talks-witb-and-club-testing/
    WITB- http://www.golfwrx.c.../page__st__1590
  • TheInfidelTheInfidel Gotta let the Big Dog eat.... Members Posts: 1,540 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @J13 said:

    @TheInfidel said:
    TM & Cally probably go toe to toe for the worst in this category, I've seem some horrible loft/lie configs from them on new stock. Stuff ships straight from China and they do next to no tolerance checks that we would rely on.

    Callaway Customs has been great for me when ordering and pretty much on spec. Overall though, TM and Cally sell the most hence they have the largest volume of clubs offspec. Srixon is another company that' ive had a lot of success with in terms of head weights (irons).

    Yeah I think that's a fair point given the overall volumes of production. Those two OEMs also make the most $$$ from consumers so it's maybe unfair that they run with high crazy high tolerance levels


    Ping G400 9* Project X Hzrdus Black 6.5 (+16g head weight)
    Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 18*, True Temper Bi Matrix RXi X 
    Adams Idea A7 22* UST V2 Hybrid X +0.5'
    Mizuno JPX 900 Forged, Project X LZ 6.5 +0.5' 4-PW
    Mizuno S18 50* Project X LZ 6.0 +0.5'
    Nike Engage Raw 54* S400 +0.5'
    Nike Engage Raw 58* S400 +0.5'
    Odyssey Dual Force 990 

  • J13J13 Dad golf Members Posts: 15,574 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 19, 2019 1:15pm #20

    @TheInfidel said:

    @J13 said:

    @TheInfidel said:
    TM & Cally probably go toe to toe for the worst in this category, I've seem some horrible loft/lie configs from them on new stock. Stuff ships straight from China and they do next to no tolerance checks that we would rely on.

    Callaway Customs has been great for me when ordering and pretty much on spec. Overall though, TM and Cally sell the most hence they have the largest volume of clubs offspec. Srixon is another company that' ive had a lot of success with in terms of head weights (irons).

    Yeah I think that's a fair point given the overall volumes of production. Those two OEMs also make the most $$$ from consumers so it's maybe unfair that they run with high crazy high tolerance levels

    Yeah, problem you run into with club assembly is it's not a high paying position. We are talking about $10/hr type stuff. Hard to find people who buy in at that level let alone care if an iron is 1.5* off.

    Callaway Epic Flash Triple Diamond 9* / Mitsubishi Tensei White 70TX
    Callaway EF 3+ w/ HZRDUS Black 75 6.5
    Srixon 745's 4-PW / Modus Tour 120 TX
    Callaway MD3 50, 54, 60 / Modus 125
    Odyssey Stroke Lab Double Wide Flow Neck 35.5" (counter weight removed)
    Srixon Zstar XV
    GolfWRX WITB Podcast - Irons reveal 11/14/18 http://www.golfwrx.c...utm_content=sub
    GolfWrx WITB Podcast 2017 : http://www.golfwrx.com/482668/tgtg-golfwrx-forum-member-j13-talks-witb-and-club-testing/
    WITB- http://www.golfwrx.c.../page__st__1590
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,966 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I have been discussing golf online for almost as long as I've been playing golf. Call it 25 years, dating back to "newgroups" before the Web was even a thing anyone had heard of.

    And in all that time, an absolutely perennial topic is how this or that manufacturer (or all of 'em) can't even come close to meeting either their stated specifications or the specifications that they don't state but which someone out there considered "standard".

    I suspect OEM's care exactly as much about "meeting specs" today as they did while Tiger Woods was still in short pants.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • milesnotsmilesmilesnotsmiles Members Posts: 77 ✭✭✭

    I had a set of mixed Srixons arrive 9 swing weights difference between the 5 and 9 iron... After they sent me clubs with the wrong shafts, because of holidays took 7 weeks to get clubs with proper shafts.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,192 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @TheInfidel said:
    TM & Cally probably go toe to toe for the worst in this category, I've seem some horrible loft/lie configs from them on new stock. Stuff ships straight from China and they do next to no tolerance checks that we would rely on.

    the most extreme ive seen was a Cobra iron. Sole number and head weight was #6, loft was #9....no wonder they launched "a bit too high"..

  • TriplesticksTriplesticks Members Posts: 126 ✭✭✭

    I received 4 s300 and 4 x100 in my last 8 iron set order from TM. I didn’t bother to check any other specs, but I assume they were wrong.

  • ChipNRunChipNRun Members Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 22, 2019 3:50am #25

    When your clubs arrive, look at the country of origin tag: the tag identifies the source of head / shaft / assembly. For long clubs, wedges and putters, each club has its own tag. For matched sets of irons, one of the shafts will bear the tag.

    I don't know if tracking country of assembly would reveal any quality-control patterns or not.

    I took some notes in 2018 on the tags on the rack from TaylorMade M2 models:

    • Hybrids... H3, H4, H5.. R-flex ReAx 65-gram shaft: Head China, / Shaft China / Assembly Mexico.
    • Fairway Woods with Reax shafts (R = 55 grams / S = 65 grams)
      + 3W and 5W, R-flex: Head Taiwan / Shaft China / Assembly Taiwan
      + 3W, S-flex: China / China / China
      + 5W, S-flex: Head China / Shaft China / Assembly Mexico

    Side notes:

    What's In The Bag *...

    Driver: Calla XR16 Pro 10.5° (set open) / Fuji Evolution II TS Speeder 665 R-flex 63 gr.
    FWs: Tour Edge XRail 4W + 7W / GraphiteDesign G60 R-flex 60 gr.
    or Calla Alpha 815, set 16° + 20° / Fuji Motore Speeder 665 R-flex 62 gr.
    Hybrid: Cobra FlyZ 3H 19° + 4H 22° / Matrix VLCT Altus Lite flex 73 gr.
    Irons: Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i - PW** / KBS Tour 90 R-flex 101 gr.
           4i refitted with SteelFiber 780 HLS Hybrid shaft R Flex 75 gr.
    Wedge: Calla MD3 48°/8.SS + 54°/12.WS +
    MD.PM 60°/10  | KBS Tour R-flex 110 gr. |
    Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) / 34" w. Ping Pistol PP60 grip (stock)
    Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag
    Ball: Calla SuperSoft
    * Either 7W or 3H left out, depending on course.
    ** Wedges: 46°and 48°are competing for bag space.
  • TheInfidelTheInfidel Gotta let the Big Dog eat.... Members Posts: 1,540 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Howard Jones said:

    @TheInfidel said:
    TM & Cally probably go toe to toe for the worst in this category, I've seem some horrible loft/lie configs from them on new stock. Stuff ships straight from China and they do next to no tolerance checks that we would rely on.

    the most extreme ive seen was a Cobra iron. Sole number and head weight was #6, loft was #9....no wonder they launched "a bit too high"..

    Ok that takes the Win. I've never seen anything that bad!


    Ping G400 9* Project X Hzrdus Black 6.5 (+16g head weight)
    Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 18*, True Temper Bi Matrix RXi X 
    Adams Idea A7 22* UST V2 Hybrid X +0.5'
    Mizuno JPX 900 Forged, Project X LZ 6.5 +0.5' 4-PW
    Mizuno S18 50* Project X LZ 6.0 +0.5'
    Nike Engage Raw 54* S400 +0.5'
    Nike Engage Raw 58* S400 +0.5'
    Odyssey Dual Force 990 

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,966 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Three questions and answers.

    Q: Do clubs get shipped that are plain old built wrong and nowhere near spec?
    A: Sure, happens more often with some brands than others but no mass-produced clubs are going to be perfect or even close to perfect every time.

    Q: Is it possible to order a "custom" set of clubs in which every spec is correct to the nearest 0.25 degree or 0.10 inch or 0.5 points of swingweight?
    A: It might happen by random chance once in a blue moon but no, mass-produced club specs vary by a degree here, quarter inch there, point or so of SW almost every time.

    Q: Is this because OEM's "no longer care" about meeting specs?
    A: No, it's because a small portion of golfers have convinced themselves that they can feel a fraction of a point of swingweight or that a half a degree of lie angle will make them hook or slice. That's not "meeting specs" that's just expecting some idealized notion of perfection.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 

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