Cannot shallow the club

I can’t figure out how to shallow the club like at all. I somehow am still hitting really well struck draws but when watching video I can see I’m very steep and losing my posture. I have no doubt this is what’s leading to such wild inconsistency when hitting driver.

Although my swing is functional I really want to improve it to gain more consistency.

I’ve tried the leaving the arms up. I’ve tried feeling the hands drop. I’ve tried a bunch of stuff but I can’t seem to get it. I know it also probably looks like I’m pulling hard on the handle but I’m really not.

Please help!

Backswing is setting you up for a steep downswing. For a right hander, arms rotating left is steep, arms rotating right is shallow. You early roll your arms ( and get them going flat) in your takeaway/ backswing - this is rotating your arms too much right, ie your shallowing going back so the reaction is you go left with the arms coming down, steep. Need to reverse this.

Good drill for this.

Or this - channel your inner Matthew Wolff.

Too shallow going back. The only way to come back down is steep. For starters, work on keeping the clubhead more outside the hands on the takeaway.

I was actually working on more left arm rotation because I’ve tended to not have enough of it and the club would get across the line.

Will take a look at the videos you posted. I plan on doing a lot of work on the range this weekend. I know I can make the right move and changes I just feel like ive tried a bunch of different feels and on video they all looked remotely the same.

Why is it that if you have a shallow backswing you have to have a steep downswing?

What would be a good downswing match up for someone who does take it back shallow? How do good players who take it back shallow not get excessively steep?

> @MCL116 said:

> I was actually working on more left arm rotation because I’ve tended to not have enough of it and the club would get across the line.

>

> Will take a look at the videos you posted. I plan on doing a lot of work on the range this weekend. I know I can make the right move and changes I just feel like ive tried a bunch of different feels and on video they all looked remotely the same.

>

> Why is it that if you have a shallow backswing you have to have a steep downswing?

Golf is a game of opposites, but probably has more to do with how muscles are acted upon and there reaction.

Look at Rory’s iron backswing, you need to club work more up, shaft should bisect through bicep on way up.

Another feel is try to keep right arm above left in backswing.

Hands inside your shoulders at address not helping.

You pull on the butt of the club toohard.

Need to learn to change wrist movements in transition to bowing left and ulnar deviating.

> @MCL116 said:

> I was actually working on more left arm rotation because I’ve tended to not have enough of it and the club would get across the line.

>

> Will take a look at the videos you posted. I plan on doing a lot of work on the range this weekend. I know I can make the right move and changes I just feel like ive tried a bunch of different feels and on video they all looked remotely the same.

>

> Why is it that if you have a shallow backswing you have to have a steep downswing?

You don’t *have* to have a steep downswing if you have a shallow backswing (see Daniel Berger) you just have to apply enough torque to the grip to prevent the club from getting steep in early transition which means your probably do have to have strong hands and forearms.

A few things to try-

1) wrap a towel around the club head and take swings feeling the shaft getting vertical in the backswing then your normal swing and feel the difference in how the shaft moves in transition

2) feel your pressure into your trail heel early, then at lead arm parallel in the backswing feel your pressure going towards your lead foot. This should help with the arm runoff

Good luck ??

@polski said:

What would be a good downswing match up for someone who does take it back shallow? How do good players who take it back shallow not get excessively steep?

Ray Floyd does do something like the OP in the takeaway and get the club very flat but from P2 he bring the club up vertically while rotating his arms back left so that when he arrives at the top he's steep and off he goes.

I'm not aware of any good swings (Mickelson might be close but he doesn't get anywhere near as deep nor does he roll the forearms like the OP) that early roll the forearms like the OP - being laid off is shallow but not typically attained by early forearm roll - maybe they exist but haven't seen it on tour or elsewhere - more likely to see the opposite like Moore, Furyk, Wolff. Better to error on the side of too little versus too much, too early, imo. Options aren't great since the move typically gets one too deep and disconnected, starting with better wrist action as Monte suggested would be a start but still a difficult position to have a quality/consistent downswing from - you'd be fighting the swing versus using it to your advantage, if that makes sense.

> @lanks said:

> > @MCL116 said:

> > I was actually working on more left arm rotation because I’ve tended to not have enough of it and the club would get across the line.

> >

> > Will take a look at the videos you posted. I plan on doing a lot of work on the range this weekend. I know I can make the right move and changes I just feel like ive tried a bunch of different feels and on video they all looked remotely the same.

> >

> > Why is it that if you have a shallow backswing you have to have a steep downswing?

>

> You don’t *have* to have a steep downswing if you have a shallow backswing (see Daniel Berger) you just have to apply enough torque to the grip to prevent the club from getting steep in early transition which means your probably do have to have strong hands and forearms.

>

> A few things to try-

> 1) wrap a towel around the club head and take swings feeling the shaft getting vertical in the backswing then your normal swing and feel the difference in how the shaft moves in transition

> 2) feel your pressure into your trail heel early, then at lead arm parallel in the backswing feel your pressure going towards your lead foot. This should help with the arm runoff

>

> Good luck ??

Yea, you can but you have to train the move, most am’s struggle with that.

Really the main thing which matters is having shaft close to or on right forearm on downswing, basically hip high to hip high.

In my beginning golfing days I had instructors tell me I was steep but i was a pretty good ball striker so was confusing to me. Looking at those swings I was perfectly on plane where it mattered the most, shaft was pretty much on my right forearm. You can see this on the pga tour as well.

Quick side note- Are you at Town of Oyster Bay GC in that video??

On the right forearm still frame can be misleading. How you got there is just as important as getting there.

> @MonteScheinblum said:

> On the right forearm still frame can be misleading. How you got there is just as important as getting there.

Yea I’m not advocating to only look there, I mean swing can be improved but the ball only knows hip high to hip high. You are plenty shallow going into impact on right forearm, as long as you don’t have clubface issues.

> @MonteScheinblum said:

> Hands inside your shoulders at address not helping.

>

> You pull on the butt of the club toohard.

>

> Need to learn to change wrist movements in transition to bowing left and ulnar deviating.

Could you expand on the wrist movements a bit? Not entirely sure what I’m doing now compared to what you are saying I should be doing. Thanks!

> @premeyer said:

> Quick side note- Are you at Town of Oyster Bay GC in that video??

>

>

Yup! I’m there pretty often on weekends.

Maybe this will help.

> @MCL116 said:

> > @MonteScheinblum said:

> > Hands inside your shoulders at address not helping.

> >

> > You pull on the butt of the club toohard.

> >

> > Need to learn to change wrist movements in transition to bowing left and ulnar deviating.

>

> Could you expand on the wrist movements a bit? Not entirely sure what I’m doing now compared to what you are saying I should be doing. Thanks!

> > @premeyer said:

> > Quick side note- Are you at Town of Oyster Bay GC in that video??

> >

> >

> Yup! I’m there pretty often on weekends.

>

> @MonteScheinblum said:

> > @MCL116 said:

> > > @MonteScheinblum said:

> > > Hands inside your shoulders at address not helping.

> > >

> > > You pull on the butt of the club toohard.

> > >

> > > Need to learn to change wrist movements in transition to bowing left and ulnar deviating.

> >

> > Could you expand on the wrist movements a bit? Not entirely sure what I’m doing now compared to what you are saying I should be doing. Thanks!

> > > @premeyer said:

> > > Quick side note- Are you at Town of Oyster Bay GC in that video??

> > >

> > >

> > Yup! I’m there pretty often on weekends.

> >

>

>

>

So are you saying I need more radial deviation going back and ulnar deviation in the downswing which I would imagine would feel like I’m casting the club behind me from the top of my backswing?

Is my left wrist not bowing? It feels like it is and doesn’t look like it’s cupping?

Thanks!

> @MCL116 said:

> > @MonteScheinblum said:

> > > @MCL116 said:

> > > > @MonteScheinblum said:

> > > > Hands inside your shoulders at address not helping.

> > > >

> > > > You pull on the butt of the club toohard.

> > > >

> > > > Need to learn to change wrist movements in transition to bowing left and ulnar deviating.

> > >

> > > Could you expand on the wrist movements a bit? Not entirely sure what I’m doing now compared to what you are saying I should be doing. Thanks!

> > > > @premeyer said:

> > > > Quick side note- Are you at Town of Oyster Bay GC in that video??

> > > >

> > > >

> > > Yup! I’m there pretty often on weekends.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

> So are you saying I need more radial deviation going back and ulnar deviation in the downswing which I would imagine would feel like I’m casting the club behind me from the top of my backswing?

>

> Is my left wrist not bowing? It feels like it is and doesn’t look like it’s cupping?

>

> Thanks!

Looks like you do on the video, your shaft goes the opposite was and you almost look to cup wrist slightly in transition to start

I’ve been working on shallowing the club more and still cannot seem to do it.

Worked on my posture by trying to get my armpits stacked over my knees over mid foot and hands under my chin rather than inside my shoulders.

Worked on a better takeaway to get the hands in sooner.

Worked on a steeper backswing although I’m sure not enough.

No matter what I do I always seem to get very steep. It doesn’t feel like I’m pulling straight down on the handle at all but that’s what it looks like I’m doing in the video. Even when my intent is to leave the hands up or let the hands drop I get the same result.

I desperately want to improve this. Yes I can play some decent golf with this swing but I want to get better and play some great golf.

Any advice/tips/drills/feels?

[http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ws0aSdmctsg](http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws0aSdmctsg "https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ws0aSdmctsg")

Thanks

I'vbeen working on this and still cannot seem to improve at all.

I've worked on my posture to get my armpits more stacked over my knees and over mid foot and getting the hands more under my chin rather than inside my shoulders.

I've worked on a better takeaway to get my hands in sooner.

I've worked on a steeper backswing although it hasn't worked and I'm sure I need to feel it anymore to get a noticeable difference.

No matter what I do I always seem to get very steep. it doesn't feel like I'm pulling straight down on the handle at all but that's what it looks like I'm doing in the video. Even when my intent is to leave the hands up or let the hands drop I get the same result.

I desperately want to improve this. Yes I can play some decent golf sometimes with this swing but I want to get better and play some great golf.

Any advice/tips/drills/feels/intents?

[youtube.com/watch?v=Ws0aSdmctsg](

Thanks!

Could be you need to relax your arms more - tension can make shallowing difficult especially with the trail arm. Feel is that club drops behind you - one transition move is to feel the hands working away from the target (what actually happens is you have to start straightening your trail arm for this to happen - associated image is that your are pulling on a hula hoop to make it go around you versus crash down into your neck - you can't just feel that you are throwing your hands behind you - need to feel that your body is pulling the club around you.

Consider keeping your left elbow pointing down - you rotate it late in the backswing (which flatens the shaft and uses up a shallowing move) versus keeping it stable.

Yet another move is to exaggerate - go full Matt Wolff

Bit of a long video (8 minutes) but the money shot is around 4:45. Worth watching for drill - just a drill to get the feel and mechanics and not meant to be the real swing.

Hopefully one of these works.

Point the club vertical going back and let your elbow fly out a little more like Jack Nicklaus. Then when you come down, bring the right elbow in and point the club outside the target line.

> @glk said:

> Could be you need to relax your arms more - tension can make shallowing difficult especially with the trail arm. Feel is that club drops behind you - one transition move is to feel the hands working away from the target (what actually happens is you have to start straightening your trail arm for this to happen - associated image is that your are pulling on a hula hoop to make it go around you versus crash down into your neck - you can't just feel that you are throwing your hands behind you - need to feel that your body is pulling the club around you.

^ this. so much this.

@MCL116 , i've been working on shallowing for a while and have just started to get the feel.

related to what @glk mentioned above, one thing that helped was practicing _the laziest possible_ slow-mo swings i could make in front of a mirror. by "lazy" i mean as little tension as possible in all of my muscles, especially in my hands and the scapulae at the top of the backswing so i could get the feeling of letting the club fall.

i'd also recommend making very slow full swings on the range. e.g. can you swing at 10% or 25% speed and still make good contact? when i tried this the club would drop quite a bit more from the top of the backswing because (presumably) i wasn't trying to muscle the swing through. i'm still not able to get reliably shallow with 100% speed so i've slowed down the backswing while i continue to groove the movement.

additionally, "freeze outs" or "freezers" are a great compliment to super slow swings imho. if you want to try this, just get to the top of your backswing, pause for a few seconds, then let the club drop and swing it around with your body. i would start at less than 100% on the downswing and then build speed over time. it took me a while to have the discipline to do this but when i finally did i progressed faster. (aside: this also works with 1/2 and 3/4 swings.)

lastly, one of the first things i did to get the feeling of shallowing out was to make half swings starting from p5 (i think?). this is the point of the downswing -- not the backswing! -- where the club is parallel with the ground. i just wanted to experience the feel of a shallow downswing so i kind of made this shortcut, and gradually increased the size of the swing until i could do it from the top. does this make sense?

p.s. here's a thread for my similar journey: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776453/

are there any good drills out there to help shallow the club that have worked for some of you?

If you're using your lower body correctly the club will shallow automatically.

> @Zitlow said:

> If you're using your lower body correctly the club will shallow automatically.

>

>

>

>

How do I use it correctly?

> @CardsChamps11 said:

> > @Zitlow said:

> > If you're using your lower body correctly the club will shallow automatically.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> How do I use it correctly?

Yea, that would be nice to know. See this a lot in the Instruction thread where the most important part is left out.

First thing I noticed in your swing is you dont use your hips for power.... all arms

You turn your hips but its like they just turn cause they have to lol not cause your drawing power from them.

Looks like Zitlow saw that too.

Power transfers from hips thru core thru the back then on down to arms and hands then to club head to ball in smooth powerful contact....... note I didnt say fast cause it happens at any speed.

Make it silky baby...

> @Zitlow said:

> If you're using your lower body correctly the club will shallow automatically.

>

>

>

is that mike austin?

i believe there's more to it than lower body. e.g. it's possible to have good lower body action but still come in steep because of what's happening with the upper body.

as someone who's been working on this, what i notice in the GIF you shared is the trail wrist extension/lead wrist flexion (aka the motorcycle move) and the right elbow action. at least in my experience, getting these things right seems just as important as using the lower body correctly.

edit: and good lord, doesn't austin have a sweet move?!

Austin used his right glute, hip and thigh similar to the way an NFL soccer style field goal kicker uses his lower right side.