2 Rules That Need To Be Enforced On Tour

124

Comments

  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,837 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,837 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    Watching both of them at the Schwab Cup finals you could see both of them unanachored. No bias needed.

    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 441 ✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

  • Brandons68Brandons68 Members Posts: 79 ✭✭✭

    @ThinkingPlus said:

    @Brandons68 said:
    I fully agree that this is an issue that needs to be worked on. Slow play is plaguing the board all the way across. College kids look up to tour players and try to mimic their meticulousness and speed. I play and pretty much all college golf routines are at the 6 hour mark for no reason.

    Interesting. That has not been my experience when playing with the college kids. Just played a state stroke play event in June where we played threesomes and all 3 days we played right around time par of 4:15. Greens were kept at a sane pace of around 11 which probably helped. Everyone used carts as well which certainly helped.

    When I play my college tourneys with only college kids, and walking, it takes upwards of 6 hours. It may have something to do with amount of players on course, but some still take well over 40 seconds to hit shots.. and end up well off target because they simply are not tour players like they think they are.

  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,657 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 6, 2019 10:41pm #98

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

    Why didn’t OEMs sue when the rule was made? Ping had just come out with an adjustable shaft putter which very quickly was worth nothing.

    If they were going to sue, it would have already happened, IMO.

    Post edited by Vindog on
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Members Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

    I watched the video and did not see him anchor it. You want it to fit your narrative and it’s not there

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoGoErky said:

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

    I watched the video and did not see him anchor it. You want it to fit your narrative and it’s not there

    His thumb is pressed on his chest. Clearly. Call it whatever you want.

  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 441 ✭✭✭✭

    @Vindog said:

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

    Why didn’t OEMs sue when the rule was made? Ping had just come out with an adjustable shaft putter which very quickly was worth nothing.

    If they were going to sue, it would have already happened, IMO.

    ^^^^ This.

    OEMs have plenty of power in how things go, but they don't ultimately call the shots, the ruling bodies do. So we have the anchoring rule, the max driver size and COR, the square grooves rule...

    But more than anything, they would have sued when this was first introduced, and they didn't and it has nothing (NOTHING) to do with Langer and his supposed anchoring. IF they actually had that power, all the other guys that were successful anchoring would be doing it now, not just some older former great.

  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,657 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @Vindog said:

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

    Why didn’t OEMs sue when the rule was made? Ping had just come out with an adjustable shaft putter which very quickly was worth nothing.

    If they were going to sue, it would have already happened, IMO.

    ^^^^ This.

    OEMs have plenty of power in how things go, but they don't ultimately call the shots, the ruling bodies do. So we have the anchoring rule, the max driver size and COR, the square grooves rule...

    But more than anything, they would have sued when this was first introduced, and they didn't and it has nothing (NOTHING) to do with Langer and his supposed anchoring. IF they actually had that power, all the other guys that were successful anchoring would be doing it now, not just some older former great.

    Sometimes I forget that everything is a conspiracy around here.

    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • aabcuueaabcuue Members Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @gvogel said:

    @gvogel said:

    @15th Club said:
    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

    It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

    Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

    Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?
    That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

    PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

    Agreed, it's not cheating if they're following the rules in place at the time.

    Anyways, you'd still have the exact same problem as some have right now: They think McCarron and Langher are anchoring, but they're actually leaving a very small gap between chest and club. Hard to see. So imagine trying to see if there's actually any movement at the top end of the putter. What if there's very little movement? I'll bet there's a little movement at the top by both McCarron and Langher even now.
    Having said that, the whole anchoring thing is still much ado about nothing. I still think they made a mistake allowing mallet putters and it's been downhill ever since.

    Sure doesn't look like Langer is leaving a gap. He has an instructional video where he says he puts his thumb to his chest. It's a shame the USGA looks the other way on this.

    Saw Adam Scott doing the same thing to Sat. You couldn't see the gap unless you were at the right angle. Bending over the golf hat blocks the front on view. Seen from the side you could see a gap, maybe 3 inches.

    However after several mediocre putting rounds, on sunday scott switched to extended putter braced to the left forarm. It definitely worked as he shot the round of the day a -7. That vaulted up the leaderboad andpost the leader in the clubhouse until the last 2 groups finished.

    a 17TM M1 460 9.5* Matrix BlackTie X 45"
    b 16Cobra KingLtd9* Rogue SilverI/O 110msi 60s 45.5" 1"tip
    c Ping G25 8.5* Tour 70x 45"

    Titleist 915fd 15* RIP Phenom70s 1"tip
    Cobra BafflerPro19* SpeederProS .5"tip
    Cobra Baffler RailH23* SpeederProS

    CallawayX20Tour 5-pw ProjectX 6.0 +.5"
    Vokey Sm5 raw aw51*, sw56*, lw60*
    Cameron FuturaX SuperStroke Fatso5.0
  • KRAMER1997KRAMER1997 Members Posts: 212 ✭✭✭

    I think the PGA Tour should have a shot clock, that's the only way to start picking up the pace of play. Each group should be keeping pace with the group in front of them. Each group should finish in about the same time as the group in front of them with a 15-minute buffer for lost balls and other circumstances (If group A plays 18 in 4 hrs, group B should be done in 4 hrs 15 mins). If this doesn't work, start penalizing every player in the group 1 shot for every 15 minutes they are late (If group A finishes in 3 and half hours hrs and group B finishes in 4 hrs, every player in group B gets a one-shot penalty). Essentially the first group of the day sets the pace, and every other group gets and every other group following gets an extra 15 minutes complete there round. I know this idea has some flaws, but it shouldn't take 5 hours to play 18 holes.

  • nochct1nochct1 Members Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    They should start looking at the rules about building a stance.

  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,657 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @nochct1 said:
    They should start looking at the rules about building a stance.

    This has not come up much and I’m legit interested in your opinion here.

    What have you seen going on?

    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,657 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @KRAMER1997 said:
    I think the PGA Tour should have a shot clock, that's the only way to start picking up the pace of play. Each group should be keeping pace with the group in front of them. Each group should finish in about the same time as the group in front of them with a 15-minute buffer for lost balls and other circumstances (If group A plays 18 in 4 hrs, group B should be done in 4 hrs 15 mins). If this doesn't work, start penalizing every player in the group 1 shot for every 15 minutes they are late (If group A finishes in 3 and half hours hrs and group B finishes in 4 hrs, every player in group B gets a one-shot penalty). Essentially the first group of the day sets the pace, and every other group gets and every other group following gets an extra 15 minutes complete there round. I know this idea has some flaws, but it shouldn't take 5 hours to play 18 holes.

    But the 5th group out would be allowed to play in 5 hrs adding 15 minutes 4 times, no?

    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @GoGoErky said:

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

    I watched the video and did not see him anchor it. You want it to fit your narrative and it’s not there

    His thumb is pressed on his chest. Clearly. Call it whatever you want.

    Viewed from your magic La-Z-Boy. Who knew it was endowed with powers unavailable to PGA Tour professional referees. Or, you're yet another know-nothing idiot.

    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @aabcuue said:

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @gvogel said:

    @gvogel said:

    @15th Club said:
    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

    It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

    Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

    Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?
    That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

    PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

    Agreed, it's not cheating if they're following the rules in place at the time.

    Anyways, you'd still have the exact same problem as some have right now: They think McCarron and Langher are anchoring, but they're actually leaving a very small gap between chest and club. Hard to see. So imagine trying to see if there's actually any movement at the top end of the putter. What if there's very little movement? I'll bet there's a little movement at the top by both McCarron and Langher even now.
    Having said that, the whole anchoring thing is still much ado about nothing. I still think they made a mistake allowing mallet putters and it's been downhill ever since.

    Sure doesn't look like Langer is leaving a gap. He has an instructional video where he says he puts his thumb to his chest. It's a shame the USGA looks the other way on this.

    Saw Adam Scott doing the same thing to Sat. You couldn't see the gap unless you were at the right angle. Bending over the golf hat blocks the front on view. Seen from the side you could see a gap, maybe 3 inches.

    However after several mediocre putting rounds, on sunday scott switched to extended putter braced to the left forarm. It definitely worked as he shot the round of the day a -7. That vaulted up the leaderboad andpost the leader in the clubhouse until the last 2 groups finished.

    If there was three inches of gap, you would see it from just about any angle.

  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,837 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Vindog said:

    @KRAMER1997 said:
    I think the PGA Tour should have a shot clock, that's the only way to start picking up the pace of play. Each group should be keeping pace with the group in front of them. Each group should finish in about the same time as the group in front of them with a 15-minute buffer for lost balls and other circumstances (If group A plays 18 in 4 hrs, group B should be done in 4 hrs 15 mins). If this doesn't work, start penalizing every player in the group 1 shot for every 15 minutes they are late (If group A finishes in 3 and half hours hrs and group B finishes in 4 hrs, every player in group B gets a one-shot penalty). Essentially the first group of the day sets the pace, and every other group gets and every other group following gets an extra 15 minutes complete there round. I know this idea has some flaws, but it shouldn't take 5 hours to play 18 holes.

    But the 5th group out would be allowed to play in 5 hrs adding 15 minutes 4 times, no?

    That's how I read it. 9th group would be at 6 hours?

    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • KRAMER1997KRAMER1997 Members Posts: 212 ✭✭✭

    @Shilgy said:

    @Vindog said:

    @KRAMER1997 said:
    I think the PGA Tour should have a shot clock, that's the only way to start picking up the pace of play. Each group should be keeping pace with the group in front of them. Each group should finish in about the same time as the group in front of them with a 15-minute buffer for lost balls and other circumstances (If group A plays 18 in 4 hrs, group B should be done in 4 hrs 15 mins). If this doesn't work, start penalizing every player in the group 1 shot for every 15 minutes they are late (If group A finishes in 3 and half hours hrs and group B finishes in 4 hrs, every player in group B gets a one-shot penalty). Essentially the first group of the day sets the pace, and every other group gets and every other group following gets an extra 15 minutes complete there round. I know this idea has some flaws, but it shouldn't take 5 hours to play 18 holes.

    But the 5th group out would be allowed to play in 5 hrs adding 15 minutes 4 times, no?

    That's how I read it. 9th group would be at 6 hours?

    I didn't think about that when I wrote it out haha. I think a simpler way solution would be to have a time par that the first group sets, and each group needs to finish within 15 minutes of that (4 hrs for first group each group coming in needs to be done within 4 hrs 15 mins). If they take more time then that, for every 15 mins there should be a 1 shot penalty.

  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @aabcuue said:

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @gvogel said:

    @gvogel said:

    @15th Club said:
    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

    It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

    Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

    Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?
    That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

    PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

    Agreed, it's not cheating if they're following the rules in place at the time.

    Anyways, you'd still have the exact same problem as some have right now: They think McCarron and Langher are anchoring, but they're actually leaving a very small gap between chest and club. Hard to see. So imagine trying to see if there's actually any movement at the top end of the putter. What if there's very little movement? I'll bet there's a little movement at the top by both McCarron and Langher even now.
    Having said that, the whole anchoring thing is still much ado about nothing. I still think they made a mistake allowing mallet putters and it's been downhill ever since.

    Sure doesn't look like Langer is leaving a gap. He has an instructional video where he says he puts his thumb to his chest. It's a shame the USGA looks the other way on this.

    Saw Adam Scott doing the same thing to Sat. You couldn't see the gap unless you were at the right angle. Bending over the golf hat blocks the front on view. Seen from the side you could see a gap, maybe 3 inches.

    However after several mediocre putting rounds, on sunday scott switched to extended putter braced to the left forarm. It definitely worked as he shot the round of the day a -7. That vaulted up the leaderboad andpost the leader in the clubhouse until the last 2 groups finished.

    If there was three inches of gap, you would see it from just about any angle.

    The verdict is in. It's not the magic La-Z-Boy that's the idiot.

    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,837 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @KRAMER1997 said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @Vindog said:

    @KRAMER1997 said:
    I think the PGA Tour should have a shot clock, that's the only way to start picking up the pace of play. Each group should be keeping pace with the group in front of them. Each group should finish in about the same time as the group in front of them with a 15-minute buffer for lost balls and other circumstances (If group A plays 18 in 4 hrs, group B should be done in 4 hrs 15 mins). If this doesn't work, start penalizing every player in the group 1 shot for every 15 minutes they are late (If group A finishes in 3 and half hours hrs and group B finishes in 4 hrs, every player in group B gets a one-shot penalty). Essentially the first group of the day sets the pace, and every other group gets and every other group following gets an extra 15 minutes complete there round. I know this idea has some flaws, but it shouldn't take 5 hours to play 18 holes.

    But the 5th group out would be allowed to play in 5 hrs adding 15 minutes 4 times, no?

    That's how I read it. 9th group would be at 6 hours?

    I didn't think about that when I wrote it out haha. I think a simpler way solution would be to have a time par that the first group sets, and each group needs to finish within 15 minutes of that (4 hrs for first group each group coming in needs to be done within 4 hrs 15 mins). If they take more time then that, for every 15 mins there should be a 1 shot penalty.

    What if the group in front of you is slow and plays in 4:45? Do you play through?

    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • KRAMER1997KRAMER1997 Members Posts: 212 ✭✭✭

    @Shilgy said:

    @KRAMER1997 said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @Vindog said:

    @KRAMER1997 said:
    I think the PGA Tour should have a shot clock, that's the only way to start picking up the pace of play. Each group should be keeping pace with the group in front of them. Each group should finish in about the same time as the group in front of them with a 15-minute buffer for lost balls and other circumstances (If group A plays 18 in 4 hrs, group B should be done in 4 hrs 15 mins). If this doesn't work, start penalizing every player in the group 1 shot for every 15 minutes they are late (If group A finishes in 3 and half hours hrs and group B finishes in 4 hrs, every player in group B gets a one-shot penalty). Essentially the first group of the day sets the pace, and every other group gets and every other group following gets an extra 15 minutes complete there round. I know this idea has some flaws, but it shouldn't take 5 hours to play 18 holes.

    But the 5th group out would be allowed to play in 5 hrs adding 15 minutes 4 times, no?

    That's how I read it. 9th group would be at 6 hours?

    I didn't think about that when I wrote it out haha. I think a simpler way solution would be to have a time par that the first group sets, and each group needs to finish within 15 minutes of that (4 hrs for first group each group coming in needs to be done within 4 hrs 15 mins). If they take more time then that, for every 15 mins there should be a 1 shot penalty.

    What if the group in front of you is slow and plays in 4:45? Do you play through?

    Haha why not. If Bruce is playing behind Bryson and is in hurry so he can go home and practice, Bryson's group should let him play through.

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 13, 2019 1:03pm #115

    @sui generis said:

    @LICC said:

    @GoGoErky said:

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

    I watched the video and did not see him anchor it. You want it to fit your narrative and it’s not there

    His thumb is pressed on his chest. Clearly. Call it whatever you want.

    Viewed from your magic La-Z-Boy. Who knew it was endowed with powers unavailable to PGA Tour professional referees. Or, you're yet another know-nothing idiot.

    Do you think referees on the course are making this decision? Do you think you need to be a referee to see his thumb touching in the video? And you're calling someone else an idiot?

  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Allow range finders and 1/2 the problem is solved

    Ping g410 LST 7° w/ Fujikura Ventus 6s, tipped 1/2”
    Ping g410 LST 13° fairway w/ Fujikura Ventus 7s, tipped 1/2”
    PXG 0311X gen2 DARKNESS 2 iron w/ Tensei pro 70g hybrid S
    PXG 0311x gen1 DARKNESS 4 iron w/ kbs $taper S
    Ping Blueprint 5-pw w/ KBS tour limited black C taper 125 s+ SST pure
    Ping Glide Forged 50° w/ KBS tour limited black C taper 125 s+ SST pure
    Vokey limited Slate Blue sm7 54F/58D w/ DG tour issue s400 SST pure
    Custom Bettinardi BB0 - RJB022885
    Mackenzie Walker bag
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,837 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @YoungJedi said:
    Allow range finders and 1/2 the problem is solved

    Even if they used rangefinders they would still need to know distance to back/front/bunker carry/backstop yardage etc.

    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Shilgy said:

    @YoungJedi said:
    Allow range finders and 1/2 the problem is solved

    Even if they used rangefinders they would still need to know distance to back/front/bunker carry/backstop yardage etc.

    They could use the pin sheet to get those calculations.

    Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
  • buckeyevalleybuckeyevalley Members Posts: 376 ✭✭✭✭

    I believe ALL rules need to be enforced on tour.

  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @sui generis said:

    @LICC said:

    @GoGoErky said:

    @LICC said:

    @Ignatius Reilly said:

    @LICC said:

    @Shilgy said:

    @LICC said:
    "I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

    That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

    You are reading more into it than he said, as your little add on shows.
    Yes, he says he has his thumb between the grip and his chest. He does not anchor said thumb to his chest. That part you made up. He has said many times that he anchors during the practice stroke to give him the feel he wants. He then moves that top hand away from his chest slightly.
    Is what Langer and McCarron and a few others do what the USGA had in mind when the rule was written? Probably not. But they are within the rules.

    I made nothing up. If you don't see with your own eyes what he does and hear what he says in the video, that is your bias.

    He said he has his thumb between the putter and his chest. He does not say it's touching his chest.

    He's made a video about how he uses a long putter and includes references to the rules. Do you really think he'd do that if he was actually anchoring? Why? The R&A would be forced to act, but they haven't. Because..... he's not breaking the rule.

    You really can’t be saying this and watching the video. He put the shaft on his chest then showed how the shaft is not on his chest because his thumb is between the shaft and his chest. And he visibly is touching his chest. The USGA and R&A don’t act because they don’t want to get sued by the equipment manufacturers. They would prefer to avoid the publicity of having to act on this.

    I watched the video and did not see him anchor it. You want it to fit your narrative and it’s not there

    His thumb is pressed on his chest. Clearly. Call it whatever you want.

    Viewed from your magic La-Z-Boy. Who knew it was endowed with powers unavailable to PGA Tour professional referees. Or, you're yet another know-nothing idiot.

    Do you think referees on the course are making this decision? Do you think you need to be a referee to see his thumb touching in the video? And you're calling someone else an idiot?

    Perhaps the PGA Tour should use your approach? Employ a legion of couch potatoes whose primary qualification is that the have no qualifications to sit at home with a Bud Lite and a bag of Cheetos and call in things their imagination perceives. LOL, they might be looking out for your resume right now.

    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • andrieddleandrieddle Members Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    40 seconds start when you arrive at your ball, if you're the 1st one to go or after the guy behind you hit his/her shot, clock starts. Doesn't matter what tournament or what position you're in, if you're in tough spot, then tough luck, don't go there in the 1st place, that's part of the punishment for hitting horrible shot.
    Need this enforced badly.

    [font=comic sans ms,cursive]Cobra Fly Z+ (11)
    Cobra Bio Cell 4W (16)
    TaylorMade R15 4H (21)
    FourteeN TC 606 (5-P/A)

    Bridgestone J15 (50)
    Callaway MD2 (56/60)
    Odyssey EXO 7S
    [/font]
Sign In or Register to comment.