Slow PGA Players

Lefty Light HItterLefty Light HItter Members Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

A bit subjective, but would JB Holmes be considered a slow weekend player? I'd assume not since he's always going to find his ball and it's hard to find a good player who is slow. I was just wondering if a tour guys idea of "slow" was still faster than what we have to deal with on a daily basis?

Likewise, would Matt Every or Koepka be comparable to the guy who plays 9 in an hour?

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  • DLev45DLev45 Members Posts: 175 ✭✭✭
    edited Jul 22, 2019 3:15pm #2

    Yes. He absolutely would be slow for a weekender. Weekenders don't spend near as much time taking practice swings, debating clubs, walking putts several times over, looking at it from all angles. JB does all of that. And the ones that do take all those steps still generally play ready golf and are doing it while their playing partners are hitting.

    Koepka this weekend said that Holmes doesn't even put his glove on until its his turn.

  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 201 ✭✭✭

    No. No. No. the average hack at a muni is very very very very very slow. Seriously. Go play a local muni and watch the players pace. Its brutal. And they hit a lot more shots. Or at least generally.... jb got 87 hacks in yesterday!

  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 201 ✭✭✭

    And I followed a good buddy with played a pro am with jb. NO! Hes not a slow player in a regular round. He pretty much grips and rips. He is a little slower than normal in club selection.

  • northgolfnorthgolf Pork Members Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    JB isn't slow physically. He is slow methodically and that implies....

    If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun. - Zippy the Pinhead
  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,722 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    If JB was playing in non-tournament conditions...even for money, he'll probably be much faster than your average weekender. He probably won't play as slow as he does in a tournament and because he's far better and taking far less strokes than your average weekend golfer.

    In tournament play, he's painfully slow. A lot of weekenders are not overly slow. The problem, and I can testify to this having rangered courses before...is all it takes is 1 person to be slow enough to slow up an entire course that is packed for play that day. And that's where you might get a 1-2x a year golfer out there. Or those that play maybe once a month, but are in a 'big' money match. But the issue with most weekend golfers is that they cannot play overly fast because they hit too many shots and have too many errant shots. Many of them are not too slow.

    Having dealt with my fair share of Tour players, I think they let the implications of golfing for a living overtake them. Improve your scoring average by 0.5 strokes per round and you're going to make a LOT of extra money. So they start to think they have to be really careful on each shot. And it did work well for Nicklaus.

    RH

  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,224 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Lefty Light HItter said:
    it's hard to find a good player who is slow.

    I spit my coffee out at that one. I have found plenty

  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Members Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichieHunt said:
    If JB was playing in non-tournament conditions...even for money, he'll probably be much faster than your average weekender. He probably won't play as slow as he does in a tournament and because he's far better and taking far less strokes than your average weekend golfer.

    In tournament play, he's painfully slow. A lot of weekenders are not overly slow. The problem, and I can testify to this having rangered courses before...is all it takes is 1 person to be slow enough to slow up an entire course that is packed for play that day. And that's where you might get a 1-2x a year golfer out there. Or those that play maybe once a month, but are in a 'big' money match. But the issue with most weekend golfers is that they cannot play overly fast because they hit too many shots and have too many errant shots. Many of them are not too slow.

    Having dealt with my fair share of Tour players, I think they let the implications of golfing for a living overtake them. Improve your scoring average by 0.5 strokes per round and you're going to make a LOT of extra money. So they start to think they have to be really careful on each shot. And it did work well for Nicklaus.

    RH

    So true. One of the players I used to practice with quite a bit was in a playoff in a major. He had a green side bunker shot and he was agonizing over it while I'm screaming "just hit it!" at the tv. He had a fantastic short game but would get to mechanical/ thoughtful sometimes in competition. It's one of the things that make the game hard but sometimes less is more.

  • dapdap Members Posts: 2,590 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Not defending Holmes or slow play but it's quite insensitive on the part of Koepka to make his point during this particular round. Holmes basically lost 700k shooting an 87. He was obviously struggling not only with the weather but also his game.

    I think Koepka is getting over confident and arrogant due to his success in the majors. Golf is a fickle game. You could lose it just as quick as you found it.

  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Members Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dap said:
    Not defending Holmes or slow play but it's quite insensitive on the part of Koepka to make his point during this particular round. Holmes basically lost 700k shooting an 87. He was obviously struggling not only with the weather but also his game.

    I think Koepka is getting over confident and arrogant due to his success in the majors. Golf is a fickle game. You could lose it just as quick as you found it.

    He was asked a question and he answered. You are right about it being a fickle game but the golf gods are also fickle. Maybe JB should take that into consideration when his terrible habit hurts the field and costs them money. Remember his 4 minute preshot followed by a lay up?

  • dapdap Members Posts: 2,590 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @buckeyefl said:

    @dap said:
    Not defending Holmes or slow play but it's quite insensitive on the part of Koepka to make his point during this particular round. Holmes basically lost 700k shooting an 87. He was obviously struggling not only with the weather but also his game.

    I think Koepka is getting over confident and arrogant due to his success in the majors. Golf is a fickle game. You could lose it just as quick as you found it.

    He was asked a question and he answered. You are right about it being a fickle game but the golf gods are also fickle. Maybe JB should take that into consideration when his terrible habit hurts the field and costs them money. Remember his 4 minute preshot followed by a lay up?

    We can point fingers all we want but if we were playing a big money game I guarantee we won't be worrying about opponents losing money and rushing our shots to keep them happy.

    If Holmes is taking longer than the rules allow then the officials need to act. This is more the issue here.

    On the flip side there are players that play overly fast like Koepka. Should slower players increase their playing speed to please them?

  • milesgilesmilesgiles milesgiles Members Posts: 356 ✭✭✭✭

    @dap said:

    @buckeyefl said:

    @dap said:
    Not defending Holmes or slow play but it's quite insensitive on the part of Koepka to make his point during this particular round. Holmes basically lost 700k shooting an 87. He was obviously struggling not only with the weather but also his game.

    I think Koepka is getting over confident and arrogant due to his success in the majors. Golf is a fickle game. You could lose it just as quick as you found it.

    He was asked a question and he answered. You are right about it being a fickle game but the golf gods are also fickle. Maybe JB should take that into consideration when his terrible habit hurts the field and costs them money. Remember his 4 minute preshot followed by a lay up?

    We can point fingers all we want but if we were playing a big money game I guarantee we won't be worrying about opponents losing money and rushing our shots to keep them happy.

    If Holmes is taking longer than the rules allow then the officials need to act. This is more the issue here.

    On the flip side there are players that play overly fast like Koepka. Should slower players increase their playing speed to please them?

    it’s been said a million times on here.

    You aren’t timed until you lose position. Slowpokes make their partners hurry up so that they don’t get put on the clock. That isn’t fair.
    The problem is 100% the rules, and the often lack of application of them. I was there for Spieth/Kuchar last round Birkdale, half hour out of position both took 5 minutes laying up on 17 because, well, **** you that’s why.. Paramour was there with them, never said a word. You could say they weren’t holding anyone up, but they’d all do well to remember professional sport is there to entertain us. If the live spectator isn’t entertained, you have a problem.

  • dapdap Members Posts: 2,590 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree there needs to be limits but golf is generally a leisurely sport. Impatient people often do poorly at this game. Would speed golf be more entertaining to the spectator with players sprinting between holes and making lots of errors?

    Most of the greats were on the slow side. Nicklaus and Woods were very deliberate. There is a point where you are simply wasting time and that's where rules need to be enforced.

  • northgolfnorthgolf Pork Members Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    The difference between Nicklaus and Holmes is Nicklaus figured out his shot while the other player was playing, Holmes doesn't even start to think (?!) until it is his turn. Nicklaus also didn't waste anytime getting to his ball.
    Being ready to start your pre shot routine when your turn comes is a simple way to speed up play that doesn't in any way hurry your shot.

    If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun. - Zippy the Pinhead
  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Another subtle difference is Nicklaus won. A lot.

    The PGA obviously doesn't want to get into the business of assessing stroke penalties for a somewhat subjective rule. They have enough marshals and volunteers at tournaments you'd think they could come up with an equitable way to time players. Really shouldn't be that difficult for a multi million dollar business model.

    As for weekend am hack slow play, instead of silly campaigns like "Play Nine" and "Play it Forward", perhaps 20-30 second commercial/PSA segments on tips for speeding up play and general course etiquette during televised golf tournaments would have a greater impact. Too many golfers just don't understand the subtle nuances that can keep what should be a 3 1/2- 4 hour round from turning into 6 plus.

  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 201 ✭✭✭

    better players play faster than bad players. That is true about 90% of the time. And I'm not talking about simply taking less strokes, although that is huge.

  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Members Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dap said:
    I agree there needs to be limits but golf is generally a leisurely sport. Impatient people often do poorly at this game. Would speed golf be more entertaining to the spectator with players sprinting between holes and making lots of errors?

    Most of the greats were on the slow side. Nicklaus and Woods were very deliberate. There is a point where you are simply wasting time and that's where rules need to be enforced.

    Absolutely no one is asking for speed golf.

  • airjammerairjammer Members Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @elthrill said:
    better players play faster than bad players. That is true about 90% of the time. And I'm not talking about simply taking less strokes, although that is huge.

    Pretty much been my experience as well but I do have a friend that is a pretty darn good player that is slow but it’s because he talks so much not because of his routine. Better players know the longer you think about a shot the likely bad thoughts can creep into your mind. You only need to really concentrate maybe 36 minutes (30 sec x 72 shots) out of your entire round, the rest of the time should be used to prepare yourself for to be concentrate for those 36 minutes.

  • hobbes928hobbes928 Members Posts: 80 ✭✭✭

    @dap said:

    @buckeyefl said:

    @dap said:

    he flip side there are players that play overly fast like Koepka. Should slower players increase their playing speed to please them?

    yes. It's for the greater good. That applies to weekend golfers. IF 1 person is slow as ****, then every golfer on that course pays for it. I'd rather that one slow person eat it and pick up the pace.

  • Cpr3584Cpr3584 Members Posts: 309 ✭✭✭✭

    The old saying goes, its ok to be bad at golf. its not ok to be bad and slow. When shooting a 87, one would think he would pick up the pace a bit. an 87 takes longer than a 72, with all the penalty shots, etc. If someone in my group is 5 under, i can understand them taking a little longer on putts. In the fairway though, it should be: a few seconds to analyze shot, one practice swing, hit.

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  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Members Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @hobbes928 said:

    @dap said:

    @buckeyefl said:

    @dap said:

    he flip side there are players that play overly fast like Koepka. Should slower players increase their playing speed to please them?

    yes. It's for the greater good. That applies to weekend golfers. IF 1 person is slow as ****, then every golfer on that course pays for it. I'd rather that one slow person eat it and pick up the pace.

    What is overly fast?

    Its not about pleasing anybody but it is about common courtesy.

  • MountainKingMountainKing Members Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @buckeyefl said:

    @hobbes928 said:

    @dap said:

    @buckeyefl said:

    @dap said:

    he flip side there are players that play overly fast like Koepka. Should slower players increase their playing speed to please them?

    yes. It's for the greater good. That applies to weekend golfers. IF 1 person is slow as ****, then every golfer on that course pays for it. I'd rather that one slow person eat it and pick up the pace.

    What is overly fast?

    Its not about pleasing anybody but it is about common courtesy.

    Speaking in terms of 4somes, anything under 3 hours IMO is overly fast. Most groups, if they do things right, should be able to get through in 3.5, on a busy course with not so spaced out tee times I'll even give it 4. Pace of play is part of the game, there's rules for it in tournaments, there's policies laid out by the courses ect. If you want to go outside and take your time enjoying nature then go find a trail and walk through a forest preserve where you can spend as many hours as you'd like. It's pretty simple, unless you're first to hit, your pre-shot routine should be done by the time it's your turn, if there's a lost ball then everybody needs to play their own shots first while the person is looking and then go look, once you hole out get your ball, leave the green and be ready to walk to the next hole, if you're ready to hit and it's safe to do so then hit. There should be plenty of time to socialize even playing this way and if it's not enough, then get a drink with the guys/gals after the round. None of us are playing for millions of dollars so there's no reason to be grinding out a 5 foot putt on a casual Saturday afternoon.

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  • GolfonthemindGolfonthemind Members Posts: 207 ✭✭✭

    In my experience a lot of the guys that are trying to play this game for money are slowwwww. A majority of it comes on or near the green. Most high handicappers don’t walk up to the green and read it for a 30 yard chips. Also the whole more strokes= slower is absurd. I’ve seen my wife ( first time ever playing) take 73 shots over nine holes and still beat the group of guys behind us by 30 minutes.

  • dapdap Members Posts: 2,590 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @elthrill said:
    better players play faster than bad players. That is true about 90% of the time. And I'm not talking about simply taking less strokes, although that is huge.

    I think you got it around the wrong way with the 90%. Better players take more time than hackers especially around the greens.The hacker spends most of his time playing way more shots, hitting provisionals and looking for balls. The pros never look for balls and only need to play around 70 shots or less but still take 5 hours. The better you are the more deliberate you become because errors are costly.

  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members Posts: 5,350 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 23, 2019 3:46pm #25

    I've never really had an issue of slow play with a decent player, it's always the hackers which are slow that I have noticed. If the good player is being a little deliberate on his shots, I'm mostly fine with that and doesn't bother me. Like I said its the hackers who are slow, taking awhile to hit the ball because they suck, they are looking for where their cheap ball went, taking too many shots to get on the green and then trying to putt everything out. When you put 4 of these guys in a group it is very slow behind them.

  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 23, 2019 3:55pm #26

    I don't have a problem with guys who have a slow routine. What I mind are guys who spend time looking for a lost ball out of bounds. But, that's a recreational problem, not a Tour issue.

  • dapdap Members Posts: 2,590 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Redjeep83 said:
    I've never really had an issue of slow play with a decent player, it's always the hackers which are slow that I have noticed. If the good player is being a little deliberate on his shots, I'm mostly fine with that and doesn't bother me. Like I said its the hackers who are slow, taking awhile to hit the ball because they suck, they are looking for where their cheap ball went, taking too many shots to get on the green and then trying to putt everything out. When you put 4 of these guys in a group it is very slow behind them.

    It definitely is far more annoying seeing a higher handicap player being slow. They waste enough time playing extra shots and looking for balls. They simply can't afford a slow routine as well.

    Better players taking their time is more understandable. I think a study was done and it was shown the pros take much longer on the 2 shots that can lead to a birdie. The approach and the first putt.

  • Shades234Shades234 San DiegoMembers Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭

    @dap said:
    Not defending Holmes or slow play but it's quite insensitive on the part of Koepka to make his point during this particular round. Holmes basically lost 700k shooting an 87. He was obviously struggling not only with the weather but also his game.

    I think Koepka is getting over confident and arrogant due to his success in the majors. Golf is a fickle game. You could lose it just as quick as you found it.

    It's not the first time he's been called out when he's been in contention. Remember Torrey in 2018?

  • Shades234Shades234 San DiegoMembers Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭

    @Redjeep83 said:
    I've never really had an issue of slow play with a decent player, it's always the hackers which are slow that I have noticed. If the good player is being a little deliberate on his shots, I'm mostly fine with that and doesn't bother me. Like I said its the hackers who are slow, taking awhile to hit the ball because they suck, they are looking for where their cheap ball went, taking too many shots to get on the green and then trying to putt everything out. When you put 4 of these guys in a group it is very slow behind them.

    You didn't play high school golf then. We would have 9 hole matches take 3+ hours at private courses because our coach was too soft to get the other coach to police his players' pace of play or advice giving. All of these guys were between +1 and 3. All of them were slow under competition.

  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members Posts: 5,350 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Shades234 said:

    @Redjeep83 said:
    I've never really had an issue of slow play with a decent player, it's always the hackers which are slow that I have noticed. If the good player is being a little deliberate on his shots, I'm mostly fine with that and doesn't bother me. Like I said its the hackers who are slow, taking awhile to hit the ball because they suck, they are looking for where their cheap ball went, taking too many shots to get on the green and then trying to putt everything out. When you put 4 of these guys in a group it is very slow behind them.

    You didn't play high school golf then. We would have 9 hole matches take 3+ hours at private courses because our coach was too soft to get the other coach to police his players' pace of play or advice giving. All of these guys were between +1 and 3. All of them were slow under competition.

    I did for a couple years, I just can't remember slow players like that.

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dap said:
    If Holmes is taking longer than the rules allow then the officials need to act.

    He isn't.

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