Who was right, me or the ranger?

Was playing Saturday morning, course was full. I was in a 4some. 3some in front of us was playing really slow and there was an entire empty hole in front of them as they couldn't keep up with a 4some. We caught them and waited on every shot. I called the ranger over on hole 14 and asked him if he would ask the 3some to speed up. He told me that according to his screen the 3some was 15 minutes ahead of pace and because of that he couldn't tell them to speed up. That was the end of the conversation.

That seems wrong to me. Shouldn't the pace be the actual pace on the course as opposed to some arbitrary number they came up with in the clubhouse? Why is 4.5 hours the accepted pace anyway? Even with a full course it shouldn't take over 4 hours to play a round of golf if everyone is mindful of pace. If a 3some can't keep up with a 4some and is slowing down another 4some aren't they, objectively, playing too slow for the pace of play? It's not like everyone else out ther is playing speed golf. This was 9 am on a local muni, mostly permanent tee times at that time.

And doesn't crap like that start the falling of dominos when it comes to pace of play the rest of the day on the course?

Pace of play should be really simple, keep up with the group in front of you in terms of where they were when the starter told you to tee off on #1.

If that's their policy, the Ranger was right.

So if the ranger did let you guys play through. Don't you think that instead you'd be waiting on the group in front of them?

I'm getting old since I'm at the point where i"m using the "back in my day" but back in my day you were slow if you weren't keeping up with the group in front of you, period. Somehow this all changed as the 90'sand early 2000's came along and courses stopped wanting to address pace issues. I agree with you Zero, if you're a hole or more behind the group in front of you, and you teed off in the slot behind that group, then you're behind, especially if you're slowing up groups behind you. Sadly, based on most posts I've seen around here and what I've seen on courses this isn't how it works anymore. A few weeks back we had a similar situation at Prairie Bluff (I think you're local to Chicago) with a group that fell behind to the point where we had two groups on the tee boxes. The ranger said they were on pace with the required 2 hour and 10 minute for 9 holes so he couldn't do anything. WTF.

Each course determines who's keeping up with the field and who's falling behind. My opinion or yours in the matter has no value on account we don't know what's happening further up out of sight in the field. As long as your tee group stays on the heels of the group in front of you, you're good.

> @BrandonDunes said:

> So if the ranger did let you guys play through. Don't you think that instead you'd be waiting on the group in front of them?

WHo said anything about playing through? I just wanted the ranger to go ask them to speed up a bit.

> @zer0 said:

> > @BrandonDunes said:

> > So if the ranger did let you guys play through. Don't you think that instead you'd be waiting on the group in front of them?

>

> WHo said anything about playing through? I just wanted the ranger to go ask them to speed up a bit.

>

>

For courses that have established and published a "time par", I think it's reasonable for a group that is playing inside that expectation to not be asked to alter their pace of play.

Personally, I would avoid playing golf at such a place, but if those are the expectations that they set, everybody should live within them.

My initial thought was "Ranger is correct, if they were ahead of the pace nothing should be said". BUT, thinking about it a little further I think there is some subjectivity to the matter. If they were simply taking their time, lining up putts, getting yardages etc. then I have no issue with them playing at that pace. If they were shotgunning beers, hitting 3 balls off the tee and hitting on the cart girl they should be asked to pick up the pace.

I think the people should have offered to let you to play through. I went out on my own with a cart one evening last week and caught up with a threesome that had a 2 hole lead on me in in 4 holes. Two or three of their shots equaled one of my drives. They were nice enough to let me play through. This allowed them to play at their own pace and not hold me up. I think that is just basic golf etiquette.

By the time you get to 14, playing through is a bad choice. One open hole isn't worth the disruption of playing through for.

> @zer0 said: Shouldn't the pace be the actual pace on the course as opposed to some arbitrary number they came up with in the clubhouse?

Why do you think it was arbitrary?

> @Roadking2003 said:

> By the time you get to 14, playing through is a bad choice. One open hole isn't worth the disruption of playing through for.

Once again, no one asked to play through. Asked the ranger to ask them to speed up a bit.

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @zer0 said: Shouldn't the pace be the actual pace on the course as opposed to some arbitrary number they came up with in the clubhouse?

>

> Why do you think it was arbitrary?

Because it lacked common sense reasoning when it came to it's application.

> @zer0 said:

> > @BrandonDunes said:

> > So if the ranger did let you guys play through. Don't you think that instead you'd be waiting on the group in front of them?

>

> WHo said anything about playing through? I just wanted the ranger to go ask them to speed up a bit.

>

>

Ok gotcha, I guess I didn't get your point. Then, to answer your question the ranger wasn't right and neither were you. If pace of play is an issue there then don't play there. It's a business if you don't like the way they are running it then don't give them your money. It's an issue where I play as well, but you tried to fix the issue and nothing more can be done and no one is right or wrong.

I was playing recently on a hot day and we came up to a group of younger guys who were not keeping up with the group in front. They were drinking heavily and socializing way too much on each shot. We were waiting for them to clear the green on 15 and then one of them jumps over a fence and into somebody's pool. That was it and we starting yelling at them and they let us play through. They clearly were not aware or did not care that they were holding people up, it's a shame.

> @zer0 said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @zer0 said: Shouldn't the pace be the actual pace on the course as opposed to some arbitrary number they came up with in the clubhouse?

> >

> > Why do you think it was arbitrary?

>

> Because it lacked common sense reasoning when it came to it's application.

It's not arbitrary. Given the circumstances the Ranger did his job correctly. I do hope if they were close to Max pace that he did give them a little reminder though. Fifteen minutes ahead of pace is very good.

> @BrandonDunes said:

> > @zer0 said:

> > > @BrandonDunes said:

> > > So if the ranger did let you guys play through. Don't you think that instead you'd be waiting on the group in front of them?

> >

> > WHo said anything about playing through? I just wanted the ranger to go ask them to speed up a bit.

> >

> >

>

> Ok gotcha, I guess I didn't get your point. Then, to answer your question the ranger wasn't right and neither were you. If pace of play is an issue there then don't play there. It's a business if you don't like the way they are running it then don't give them your money. It's an issue where I play as well, but you tried to fix the issue and nothing more can be done and no one is right or wrong.

>

> I was playing recently on a hot day and we came up to a group of younger guys who were not keeping up with the group in front. They were drinking heavily and socializing way too much on each shot. We were waiting for them to clear the green on 15 and then one of them jumps over a fence and into somebody's pool. That was it and we starting yelling at them and they let us play through. They clearly were not aware or did not care that they were holding people up, it's a shame.

No, the Ranger is correct. I tell this to people a lot in these threads but it's easy to make judgement calls as a player but as an owner or person in charge of such things and being responsible for all of the players who paid good money to play, it's a different story.

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @zer0 said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @zer0 said: Shouldn't the pace be the actual pace on the course as opposed to some arbitrary number they came up with in the clubhouse?

> > >

> > > Why do you think it was arbitrary?

> >

> > Because it lacked common sense reasoning when it came to it's application.

>

> It's not arbitrary. Given the circumstances the Ranger did his job correctly. I do hope if they were close to Max pace that he did give them a little reminder though. Fifteen minutes ahead of pace is very good.

Do you have an accurate time for how long it took you to play? From the time you teed off until your last putt if you didn't tee off exactly on time. From the other side of the equation I would be ecstatic to have groups 15 minutes ahead on a Saturday morning in the busy season.

* Sorry about the format. I accidentally responded to my own post.

Golf should be played as quickly as can enable a fair and enjoyable round. Courses should not have a pace on paper. I hate hearing we’re not slow when there are gaps ahead of our group. Thus my leaving those groups. My vote is for the Op over the ranger

Course I play, 4:20 is "pace", policy is if you're on it, it is what it is. Works way better than Ranger's hovering and playing Shepard even if pace was good as they once had done. Ranger is right.

> @"Carl Spackler3" said:

> Golf should be played as quickly as can enable a fair and enjoyable round. Courses should not have a pace on paper. I hate hearing we’re not slow when there are gaps ahead of our group. Thus my leaving those groups. My vote is for the Op over the ranger

So if the group in front of you is playing a 2:15 round you should be told you are out of position because you aren't keeping up? It doesn't work that way in the real world and it shouldn't. Course pace is there to protect everyone.

The ranger was right, sorry OP.

Agree with Ranger. There are reasons some groups cannot keep pace with the Group ahead. Just because the group in front is playing 'quickly' doesn't mean I should have to if I don't want to. I do agree with the expected time to be met as the minimum.

Agree with the ranger on this one.

Our course pace is 3:45. You have two choices finish under that time or finish xxminutes behind the group in front of you (can't recall what it is as I never have the at issue).

Sometime there is big gap in the tee sheet and the group in front is a twosome that will finish in 2.5hours. It would make no sense to complain that our foursome did not stay behind them.

Not sure I agree what the course set its pace at, but providing the information is available to you, you have nothing to complain about if you played in less then it.

It has to, or at least should be, a combination of POP and basic etiquette. POP should be an established guideline so people have an idea before they start what the expectations are. But basic etiquette also says that if a group is obviously playing faster, and there is a hole open ahead, simply let them go through. Regardless of where you are in relation to pace. POP guidelines also shouldn’t penalize groups that play faster than the guidelines by giving others an excuse to not let other play through.

If the group was on pace, then the ranger is right, nothing he should have or could have done. That being said, it is not great etiquette to make a group wait behind you, they should have let you play through. That being said, I have on several occasions let people play through to then wait for them on every shot. It goes both ways sometimes.

> @"CAT GOLFER" said:

> If the group was on pace, then the ranger is right, nothing he should have or could have done. That being said, it is not great etiquette to make a group wait behind you, they should have let you play through. That being said, I have on several occasions let people play through to then wait for them on every shot. It goes both ways sometimes.

Good point. IMHO, one open hole does not justify the disruption of playing through. Finishing 12 - 15 minutes earlier is not worth the effort.

Consider this. If a myself and a friend (we both play very fast) and are on a 2 1/2 hour pace for 18, tee off in front of your group do you feel you should required to keep up?

> @denkea said:

> Consider this. If a myself and a friend (we both play very fast) and are on a 2 1/2 hour pace for 18, tee off in front of your group do you feel you should required to keep up?

You wouldn't be at a 2.5 hour pace on a full golf course.

The problem here is a lot of you are accepting the pace set by the course as reasonable when clearly it wasn't. The guy who posted that his course has a 3:45 pace, now that is a reasonable pace. Why should the course I played at have a pace of 4:20 ore 4:30? It's not some world beater course. And on top of that, I was playing in the morning when most of the tee times were permanent. Surely, those players don't need the same pace that the afternoon casual crowd gets, right? Common sense dictates that the regulars should be able to get around the course quicker than Joe Schmo. And that's exactly what was a happening. The other groups ahead of us were playing at a fast pace, well ahead of the arbitrary pace set by the golf course. Except for one 3some.

Here is one take that hasn't been addressed....setting the pace at a large number allows the rangers/golf course to avoid having to address customer complaints about pace. "What are you talking about, the pace isn't slow, it's actually 15 minutes ahead of schedule." Which is exactly the line I got from the Ranger.

> @"CAT GOLFER" said:

> If the group was on pace, then the ranger is right,**___ nothing he should have or could have done___**. That being said, it is not great etiquette to make a group wait behind you, they should have let you play through. That being said, I have on several occasions let people play through to then wait for them on every shot. It goes both ways sometimes.

I disagree. He could have told the group that there was another, faster group behind them.....and then politely suggest they let the faster group play through. I know OP wasn't looking to play through, but perhaps it never occurred to the group in front that they were holding up a faster group behind them. A friendly nudge from the ranger could have resolved this.....allowing both groups to continue at the pace they were on.

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> It has to, or at least should be, a combination of POP and basic etiquette. POP should be an established guideline so people have an idea before they start what the expectations are. But basic etiquette also says that if a group is obviously playing faster, and there is a hole open ahead, simply let them go through. Regardless of where you are in relation to pace. POP guidelines also shouldn’t penalize groups that play faster than the guidelines by giving others an excuse to not let other play through.

Spot-on assessment

Here's the thing, don't ever ask a Ranger to tell people to speed up. Ask to be let to play through.

Speed of play and Pace of play are two completely distinct concepts. Speed of play is all about time-par, usually set at 12-15 minutes per hole depending on the course. If you're playing at or below time par, it would be inappropriate for a Ranger to ask you to speed up, because then you'd walk into the pro-shop after the round and b**** about the Ranger yelling at you for finishing on time.

Pace of play has absolutely zero to do with time (other than initial tee-time spacing), it only refers to the normalized progression of golfer through the course, and the attempts towards limitation of both open holes and golfers waiting to hit shots. In your scenario, the open holes in front of the group you were following show they are not keeping good pace of play. The solution to a PoP problem is never asking a group to speed up. It is solved by either (sometimes forcibly) allowing groups with a quicker pace to play through, or in the case of overcrowding having the starter spread out tee times a bit more.

You did not experience a speed problem, you experienced a pace problem. Ask to play through.

(And if a Ranger ever quotes time par in a refusal to get a group to let you play through to an open hole, then in that scenario he's a moron who is bad at his job)