High ball flight and low single digits

So I finally busted into the single digits(9.7)after being anywhere from 12-17 the last 3 years.

I have solid speed(158-165 ball speed driver).

My 7iron launches at ~20degrees with 125-130 ball speed. Needless to say my irons go really high.

I have spent a LOT of time trying to get more shaft lean but it ends up with just wasted effort and making me play worse.

My only swing thought now Montes no turn/cast move and its got me striking the ball much better and less in-to-out.

I feel really comfortable with my swing right now, especially my irons. And as long as it's not super windy the ball flight helps me stop 4 irons on the green that carry 220.

Is a 20 degree 7iron(31 degree rogue pro) something I should focus on fixing?

I do play softer less spinny balls like chromesofts and AVX to bring the flight down a little bit as well.

Not really. If you want to, and you probably should, develop a knockdown type shot for those windy days or when you need a running shot. For me it's really only a 3/4 version of my full swing, cuts about 10 yards off full swing carry distance and lower flight.

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> Not really. If you want to, and you probably should, develop a knockdown type shot for those windy days or when you need a running shot. For me it's really only a 3/4 version of my full swing, cuts about 10 yards off full swing carry distance and lower flight.

Yea right now, if its really windy I typically club up and take a 3/4 type swing. Problem is I really don't have those distances dialed in like my full swings, but I can start working on them.

The thing that freaks me out I guess is the tour average 7iron is around 17 degrees and that's with a weaker lofted iron compared to my rogue pros. Tour average 9 iron is 20 degrees and mine is 25.

> @Three_Jack said:

> The thing that freaks me out I guess is the tour average 7iron is around 17 degrees and that's with a weaker lofted iron compared to my rogue pros. Tour average 9 iron is 20 degrees and mine is 25.

Those are just averages. Plenty of pros are higher than that (as well as plenty being lower as well). They are not any kind of ideal values or targets of any kind.

If you are concerned about a swing issue - then have the swing evaluated by a pro - and work with them for a possible solution to anything found. The numbers by themselves don't really tell us anything about the quality of the swing.

Assuming most pros play blades, blades tend to launch lower than their GI brethren so I wouldn't get too distressed. Your numbers are similar too mine according to my mevo stats

What are your goals as a player? Do you want to get significantly better? low single digits or scratch?

Lower spin balls tend to launch higher, FYI.

> @Krt22 said:

> Lower spin balls tend to launch higher, FYI.

Hmmmmm. Thought it was the opposite. At least with peak height, I'm almost sure it is....

> @Obee said:

> What are your goals as a player? Do you want to get significantly better? low single digits or scratch?

Scratch is def the strech goal. But I just hit single digits, so I don't expect to be there any time soon. Gotta practice putting and driving accuracy.

> @Obee said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > Lower spin balls tend to launch higher, FYI.

>

> Hmmmmm. Thought it was the opposite. At least with peak height, I'm almost sure it is....

Not as intuitive as it seems. Initial launch is typically lower (rolls up the face less).

> @Obee said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > Lower spin balls tend to launch higher, FYI.

>

> Hmmmmm. Thought it was the opposite. At least with peak height, I'm almost sure it is....

Yes that's correct. The difference in launch angle is a lot less then spin. For instance, I'll launch a Kirkland at 19 degrees with 7.5k spin versus a chromesoft at 20 degrees with 5k spin. The Kirkland will balloon and the chromesoft will Pierce more

> @Three_Jack said:

>

> > @Obee said:

> > What are your goals as a player? Do you want to get significantly better? low single digits or scratch?

>

> Scratch is def the strech goal. But I just hit single digits, so I don't expect to be there any time soon. Gotta practice putting and driving accuracy.

>

Well, it's certainly possible to be a very solid, scratch/plus-handicapper with quite a high ball flight. It's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to do this with a high, super-spinny ball-flight. I mean, you can be a decent scratchish play that way, but I know virtually no tournament-level amateurs who make cuts in decent events on a regular basis who hit it high AND with a ton of spin.

Your launch is fine. Spin will kill you when playing in wind. Launch is not as much of factor, you just want to keep the ball from climbing the ladder from its spin. Best way is to club down, swing very smooth.

I think a high ball flight is awesome. Also, when practicing on a skytrak I launch my 30.5* 7i around 20*. I get an apex around 100', and upper 5000 to low 6000 spin. These number seem to produce the best distance. I can lower the launch angle a bit, but it generally produces more spin and less carry distance.

Also, I have played with a few scratch and + indexes, and every time I have played with them, the thing I notice right away, is how high they hit the ball.

As others said before, if it is windy, club up and swing less.

> @trilerian said:

> I think a high ball flight is awesome. Also, when practicing on a skytrak I launch my 30.5* 7i around 20*. I get an apex around 100', and upper 5000 to low 6000 spin. These number seem to produce the best distance. I can lower the launch angle a bit, but it generally produces more spin and less carry distance.

> Also, I have played with a few scratch and + indexes, and every time I have played with them, the thing I notice right away, is how high they hit the ball.

> As others said before, if it is windy, club up and swing less.

We must run with different crowds, the best players I know all hit it low. They can hit it high but stock shots are very low. As I have gotten better, my launch angles have come way down. I have weak lofted 919 tours and still hit it substantially lower than my AP3's when I was a higher cap. I have never played a guy with a low piercing flight that was over a 5.

> @"rich s" said:

> > @trilerian said:

> > I think a high ball flight is awesome. Also, when practicing on a skytrak I launch my 30.5* 7i around 20*. I get an apex around 100', and upper 5000 to low 6000 spin. These number seem to produce the best distance. I can lower the launch angle a bit, but it generally produces more spin and less carry distance.

> > Also, I have played with a few scratch and + indexes, and every time I have played with them, the thing I notice right away, is how high they hit the ball.

> > As others said before, if it is windy, club up and swing less.

>

> We must run with different crowds, the best players I know all hit it low. They can hit it high but stock shots are very low. As I have gotten better, my launch angles have come way down. I have weak lofted 919 tours and still hit it substantially lower than my AP3's when I was a higher cap. I have never played a guy with a low piercing flight that was over a 5.

I should have put a qualifier on there that all those guys also had incredibly high swing speeds. Every scratch player and + that I have played with, hit it far and high. I have never played with a really good player with a slower swing speed. I know they exist, I just haven't seen them...

> @"rich s" said:

> > @trilerian said:

> > I think a high ball flight is awesome. Also, when practicing on a skytrak I launch my 30.5* 7i around 20*. I get an apex around 100', and upper 5000 to low 6000 spin. These number seem to produce the best distance. I can lower the launch angle a bit, but it generally produces more spin and less carry distance.

> > Also, I have played with a few scratch and + indexes, and every time I have played with them, the thing I notice right away, is how high they hit the ball.

> > As others said before, if it is windy, club up and swing less.

>

> We must run with different crowds, the best players I know all hit it low. They can hit it high but stock shots are very low. As I have gotten better, my launch angles have come way down. I have weak lofted 919 tours and still hit it substantially lower than my AP3's when I was a higher cap. I have never played a guy with a low piercing flight that was over a 5.

Different crowds for sure as your observations arent universal. Theres high and weak and high and strong. Same with low.

Of course I guess we would have to define high and low. Do you think tour players hit it high when you see their shots tracked on TV?

Tour average is about 30 yards height with every club. I am usually about 35-40.

the important thing to remember is what apex you're getting, spin and descent angle. for instance..if you launch it between 18-22*...you don't want 7k spin. if you had say, 5500 spin, you could still stop a ball, assuming your descent angle is reasonable (greater than 38*) as well.

there are tour guys (boo weekley) for instance - who hit a much lower launch ball but also but a quite a bit more spin on it in order to hold a green with a much lower apex and a more aggressive descent angle. those guys are also not hitting a mile with their irons.

your speeds match mine

what shaft is in your irons ?

you have to use knockdowns and learn them dead cold. I hit 60% of my iron shots this way, and 80% of my short irons

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @"rich s" said:

> > > @trilerian said:

> > > I think a high ball flight is awesome. Also, when practicing on a skytrak I launch my 30.5* 7i around 20*. I get an apex around 100', and upper 5000 to low 6000 spin. These number seem to produce the best distance. I can lower the launch angle a bit, but it generally produces more spin and less carry distance.

> > > Also, I have played with a few scratch and + indexes, and every time I have played with them, the thing I notice right away, is how high they hit the ball.

> > > As others said before, if it is windy, club up and swing less.

> >

> > We must run with different crowds, the best players I know all hit it low. They can hit it high but stock shots are very low. As I have gotten better, my launch angles have come way down. I have weak lofted 919 tours and still hit it substantially lower than my AP3's when I was a higher cap. I have never played a guy with a low piercing flight that was over a 5.

>

>

> Different crowds for sure as your observations arent universal. Theres high and weak and high and strong. Same with low.

>

> Of course I guess we would have to define high and low. Do you think tour players hit it high when you see their shots tracked on TV?

>

I’ve watched the pros play in person and overall they hit it much lower than amateurs. Maybe I live in a bubble but amateurs like to flip and pros have shaft lean. Keep in mind I’m talking launch angles and not total height. A 320 yard drive that goes the same height as a 250 has a much lower LA obviously

> @"rich s" said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @"rich s" said:

> > > > @trilerian said:

> > > > I think a high ball flight is awesome. Also, when practicing on a skytrak I launch my 30.5* 7i around 20*. I get an apex around 100', and upper 5000 to low 6000 spin. These number seem to produce the best distance. I can lower the launch angle a bit, but it generally produces more spin and less carry distance.

> > > > Also, I have played with a few scratch and + indexes, and every time I have played with them, the thing I notice right away, is how high they hit the ball.

> > > > As others said before, if it is windy, club up and swing less.

> > >

> > > We must run with different crowds, the best players I know all hit it low. They can hit it high but stock shots are very low. As I have gotten better, my launch angles have come way down. I have weak lofted 919 tours and still hit it substantially lower than my AP3's when I was a higher cap. I have never played a guy with a low piercing flight that was over a 5.

> >

> >

> > Different crowds for sure as your observations arent universal. Theres high and weak and high and strong. Same with low.

> >

> > Of course I guess we would have to define high and low. Do you think tour players hit it high when you see their shots tracked on TV?

> >

>

> I’ve watched the pros play in person and overall they hit it much lower than amateurs. Maybe I live in a bubble but amateurs like to flip and pros have shaft lean. Keep in mind I’m talking launch angles and not total height. A 320 yard drive that goes the same height as a 250 has a much lower LA obviously

I disagree with this observation. I have been to many PGA events and the club I grew up at has produced numerous Division 1 golfers and one current PGA Tour Player. Pros launch the ball extremely high compared to most amateurs - however it comes out high and dead vs a spinny climbing type flight. Top players have the ability to hit it high or low, however the dominant type of play now - bomb and gouge - is all about high launch, low spin.

This high launch is clearly evident just watching the shot tracer on a typical tour event tv cast - 99% of golfers can’t match the typical high flat trajectory. To hit it “pro” distances, you have to hit it high - basic physics apply with a high swing speed. A typical well struck shot’s flight >4/5 is carry vs roll.

> @"rich s" said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @"rich s" said:

> > > > @trilerian said:

> > > > I think a high ball flight is awesome. Also, when practicing on a skytrak I launch my 30.5* 7i around 20*. I get an apex around 100', and upper 5000 to low 6000 spin. These number seem to produce the best distance. I can lower the launch angle a bit, but it generally produces more spin and less carry distance.

> > > > Also, I have played with a few scratch and + indexes, and every time I have played with them, the thing I notice right away, is how high they hit the ball.

> > > > As others said before, if it is windy, club up and swing less.

> > >

> > > We must run with different crowds, the best players I know all hit it low. They can hit it high but stock shots are very low. As I have gotten better, my launch angles have come way down. I have weak lofted 919 tours and still hit it substantially lower than my AP3's when I was a higher cap. I have never played a guy with a low piercing flight that was over a 5.

> >

> >

> > Different crowds for sure as your observations arent universal. Theres high and weak and high and strong. Same with low.

> >

> > Of course I guess we would have to define high and low. Do you think tour players hit it high when you see their shots tracked on TV?

> >

>

> I’ve watched the pros play in person and overall they hit it much lower than amateurs. Maybe I live in a bubble but amateurs like to flip and pros have shaft lean. Keep in mind I’m talking launch angles and not total height. A 320 yard drive that goes the same height as a 250 has a much lower LA obviously

Thats not necessarily true, spin numbers have an effect on total height too. The 250 can launch really low and spin up to peak height. The 320 can launch high but stay flat due to low spin

> @Three_Jack said:

> Tour average is about 30 yards height with every club. I am usually about 35-40.

That is just average and honestly I think that is on the low end. Most of the top guys hit moon balls, especially the higher speed guys. Rahm was hitting 140ft peak heights last weekend. Nothing wrong with peaking 110ish if you aren't ballooning them up.

Simple physics can explain all this:

1. A ball with no spin will travel the furthest If launched at a 45 degree angle.

2. Ball in the air will travel further than a ball on the ground.

3. As the launch goes lower, the more the ball needs to spin to stay in the air.

4. Increasing spin robs energy from the ball and this there is less available to propel it forward.

5. Therefore higher launch, low spin will produce the longest shot all things equal (obviously you still need enough baseline spin to gain lift advantage from the dimples ono a ball).

> @burnsniper said:

> Simple physics can explain all this:

> 1. A ball with no spin will travel the furthest If launched at a 45 degree angle.

> 2. Ball in the air will travel further than a ball on the ground.

> 3. As the launch goes lower, the more the ball needs to spin to stay in the air.

> 4. Increasing spin robs energy from the ball and this there is less available to propel it forward.

> 5. Therefore higher launch, low spin will produce the longest shot all things equal (obviously you still need enough baseline spin to gain lift advantage from the dimples ono a ball).

Sure, if you are talking purely about theory and not actually playing golf.

I could be wrong overall, just commenting on my experience. So you guys are saying that pros on average have higher iron launch angles than ams? Like I said I definitely could be wrong but I just don’t see that with the people I play with. High, spiny and weak is the norm in these parts. I would love to hear from Monte or Dan on what they see just so I know.

I used to hit high weak shots and as I got better my launch angles came way down even though my lofts went way up. When I look at my LA averages compared to pga averages I’m still high but I hit it lower than almost everyone I play with.

I get high and spinny. But what do you mean by weak? I launch my 7iron at 20degrees and depending on the ball I'll get 170 to 190 yards carry(Kirkland to AVX)

Is weak non-optimal launch conditions?

Higher peak height, not just LA. Either way, you cant just look at LA alone, without looking at speed as well. If you don't have PGA tour speed (or greater), you likely do not want to launch it the same or lower than PGA tour pros. From the OP, launching at 7i@20* with 5k rpm of spin results in 116 ft of peak height, which for his speed is not terrible. Arbitrarily trying to get everything down to 90ft like the trackman averages without looking at all of the other launch parameters isnt all that productive IMO as there are plenty of high ball hitters that hit it much higher than those charts suggest

> @"rich s" said:

> I could be wrong overall, just commenting on my experience. So you guys are saying that pros on average have higher iron launch angles than ams? Like I said I definitely could be wrong but I just don’t see that with the people I play with. High, spiny and weak is the norm in these parts. I would love to hear from Monte or Dan on what they see just so I know.

>

> I used to hit high weak shots and as I got better my launch angles came way down even though my lofts went way up. When I look at my LA averages compared to pga averages I’m still high but I hit it lower than almost everyone I play with.

I think it’s realitive. Pros hit their woods and long irons much higher than amateurs based on my observation - often peaking as high as their short irons. By contrast most amateurs hit their short irons much higher than their long irons and woods (which they either don’t have proper technique or swing speed to elevate) and thus it may “appear” that amateurs hit their irons higher.