Early Extension vs Squat Jump

I understand it's the "when" that makes extension early or as it should be, but there seems to be a lot of teaching based around extension in the backswing, big squat to start downswing, then jump as hard as you can to the point of your front foot leaving the ground. The question is, are they extending their legs and keeping their chest down or are they trying to get fully upright by finish? If trying to release any forward bend and jump straight up, isn't that easy for someone to time wrong and end up just standing up and humping the goat?

great post

Personal musings from the uneducated:

I don't think early extension is as much about extending 'early' as it is about the direction the hips and chest are facing as front bend is being removed in the downswing.

If front bend isn't removed until facing target then you look like one of those old guys in the club infomercials that's chasing the ball down the fairway.

If front bend is removed while you're facing the ball **with no side bend** then you're humping the goat

If front bend is gradually replaced with side bend on the downswing as hips turn toward the target then you have a chance.

If you can't successfully get side bend then your only options are to sway off the ball on the backswing and throughswing or to stand up on the backswing and throughswing.

I think early extension is largely an inability to successfully get into side bend, or even know what that feels like.

> @"Lefty Light HItter" said:

> I understand it's the "when" that makes extension early or as it should be, but there seems to be a lot of teaching based around extension in the backswing, big squat to start downswing, then jump as hard as you can to the point of your front foot leaving the ground. The question is, are they extending their legs and keeping their chest down or are they trying to get fully upright by finish? If trying to release any forward bend and jump straight up, isn't that easy for someone to time wrong and end up just standing up and humping the goat?

I know this is pretty popular on the tour and in a lot of teaching but it looks like a recipe to add slack between you and the club head.

> @PorscheFan said:

> If front bend is gradually replaced with side bend on the downswing as hips turn toward the target then you have a chance.

> I think early extension is largely an inability to successfully get into side bend, or even know what that feels like.

Can you explain a bit what you mean by side bend replacing the front bend, or point me to an example?

I don't think anyone is consciously trying to do all of those things in sequence, its more a reaction to what the club is doing. Most folks EE as a reaction to what the club is doing as well, so you need to make sure you get the club in the right place to properly extend/flex/extend. I would also say in this context, while the legs drive a lot of it, its largely the hips/thoracic spine that is being discussed.

> @soonernick said:

> > @PorscheFan said:

> > If front bend is gradually replaced with side bend on the downswing as hips turn toward the target then you have a chance.

> > I think early extension is largely an inability to successfully get into side bend, or even know what that feels like.

>

> Can you explain a bit what you mean by side bend replacing the front bend, or point me to an example?

>

>

Actually, this video is a decent example, though it doesn't explain it inexactly the same manner. Side bend is absolutely something that can be consciously improved. It's as much a general physical limitation as it is a golf 'skill'. If you swing 'flat' with no side ben it'll absoutely feel weird:

Thank you, that helps me understand. I think I already understood that part at some level, but I was thinking of that move as more getting that right elbow back in than a "side bend", but I think it's the same concept.

Appreciate you taking the time to find that.

> @soonernick said:

> Thank you, that helps me understand. I think I already understood that part at some level, but I was thinking of that move as more getting that right elbow back in than a "side bend", but I think it's the same concept.

>

> Appreciate you taking the time to find that.

No worries at all. Actually, this video by Robin Symes has a much clearer explanation, and gives a really simple drill @ 2:35 (the windmill drill) to feel side bend. It's a great drill to do at home without a club:

I don’t think anyone is teaching to leave the ground and literally jump. The “ jump” you see is an athletic reaction to what is happening.

Maybe as a exaggeration

My 7 YO gets the concept of side bend without anyone having to explain or teach it to him.

Kids are just more flexible so it's an easier, more natural position to get into vs. a crusty old duffer like me. I think kids are also free of preconceptions so they just work out the best way to accomplish the task.

He doesn't "jump" becuse he hasn't watched videos telling him it's cool yet. Hopefully he never does.

So you don't want him to hit it far?

> @Krt22 said:

> So you don't want him to hit it far?

Cause vs. effect. He'll work out how to generate vertical ground forces consistent with his swing forces. In fact, he already does.

> @iteachgolf said:

> I don’t think anyone is teaching to leave the ground and literally jump. The “ jump” you see is an athletic reaction to what is happening.

I know you don't teach it. It seems to be popping up more and more showing long drivers hinting that "this will make you better". I've seen the video of Kyle Berkshire all over this week and I'm pretty I'm going to see 65 year olds doing box jumps with a PW on the range tomorrow ?

Waldrons tilt switch

Great question. On the Gear Dive Podcast (shoutout Johnny) they had instructor Adam Schriber, he said he wanted his students using glutes to power the swing, not the thighs, I was like YES...wait, what does that mean.

I understand the side bend. My problem is doing it without hip slide. Sliding your hips locks you out and then you early extend because you do not rotate. Or at least that is what I "feel". My swing has been kind of a mess lately. after playing some really really good golf early in the year.

> @QuigleyDU said:

> I understand the side bend. My problem is doing it without hip slide. Sliding your hips locks you out and then you early extend because you do not rotate. Or at least that is what I "feel". My swing has been kind of a mess lately. after playing some really really good golf early in the year.

The windmill drill is the way to go, then. It'd be very difficult to hip slide doing the windmill drill.

Ultimately hip internal and external rotation can be a limitation to fully rotating the hips, which can cause all sorts of compensations like sliding. On the throughswing, internal rotation of the lead leg and externl rotation of the trail leg can limit rotation. You never hear it mentioned in videos because most of those folks have decent flexibility so it's not top of mind for them.

> @PorscheFan said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > I understand the side bend. My problem is doing it without hip slide. Sliding your hips locks you out and then you early extend because you do not rotate. Or at least that is what I "feel". My swing has been kind of a mess lately. after playing some really really good golf early in the year.

>

> The windmill drill is the way to go, then. It'd be very difficult to hip slide doing the windmill drill.

>

> Ultimately hip internal and external rotation can be a limitation to fully rotating the hips, which can cause all sorts of compensations like sliding. On the throughswing, internal rotation of the lead leg and externl rotation of the trail leg can limit rotation. You never hear it mentioned in videos because most of those folks have decent flexibility so it's not top of mind for them.

I am more flexible then most. My biggest limit is that I am a decent sized human being. I am not sure that I understand what you mean by internal rotation of the lead led and external rotation of the trail though. In my mind that seems backwards.

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @PorscheFan said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > I understand the side bend. My problem is doing it without hip slide. Sliding your hips locks you out and then you early extend because you do not rotate. Or at least that is what I "feel". My swing has been kind of a mess lately. after playing some really really good golf early in the year.

> >

> > The windmill drill is the way to go, then. It'd be very difficult to hip slide doing the windmill drill.

> >

> > Ultimately hip internal and external rotation can be a limitation to fully rotating the hips, which can cause all sorts of compensations like sliding. On the throughswing, internal rotation of the lead leg and externl rotation of the trail leg can limit rotation. You never hear it mentioned in videos because most of those folks have decent flexibility so it's not top of mind for them.

>

> I am more flexible then most. My biggest limit is that I am a decent sized human being. I am not sure that I understand what you mean by internal rotation of the lead led and external rotation of the trail though. In my mind that seems backwards.

Size shouldn't be a limiter if hip flexibility and strength are OK.

Hip internal & external rotation often appears to be 'backwards' inexplanation. Think of it this way: when you move into the throughswing you post on the lead leg but your hips continue to turn toward the target. In actuality the thigh of your lead leg is rotating inward toward your crown jewels...

I really liked the side bend video/windmill drill. However, when doing that I leave the club face wide open...

> @PorscheFan said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @PorscheFan said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > I understand the side bend. My problem is doing it without hip slide. Sliding your hips locks you out and then you early extend because you do not rotate. Or at least that is what I "feel". My swing has been kind of a mess lately. after playing some really really good golf early in the year.

> > >

> > > The windmill drill is the way to go, then. It'd be very difficult to hip slide doing the windmill drill.

> > >

> > > Ultimately hip internal and external rotation can be a limitation to fully rotating the hips, which can cause all sorts of compensations like sliding. On the throughswing, internal rotation of the lead leg and externl rotation of the trail leg can limit rotation. You never hear it mentioned in videos because most of those folks have decent flexibility so it's not top of mind for them.

> >

> > I am more flexible then most. My biggest limit is that I am a decent sized human being. I am not sure that I understand what you mean by internal rotation of the lead led and external rotation of the trail though. In my mind that seems backwards.

>

> Size shouldn't be a limiter if hip flexibility and strength are OK.

>

> Hip internal & external rotation often appears to be 'backwards' inexplanation. Think of it this way: when you move into the throughswing you post on the lead leg but your hips continue to turn toward the target. In actuality the thigh of your lead leg is rotating inward toward your crown jewels...

Forgive my ignorance, I do not understand how that is physically possible? I think a get what you are saying in regards to a feel, but I do not see how your leg can rotate clockwise, when the entire rest of your body is going counter clockwise.

> @trilerian said:

> I really liked the side bend video/windmill drill. However, when doing that I leave the club face wide open...

then you're not using your wrists correctly or your grip sux.

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @PorscheFan said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @PorscheFan said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > I understand the side bend. My problem is doing it without hip slide. Sliding your hips locks you out and then you early extend because you do not rotate. Or at least that is what I "feel". My swing has been kind of a mess lately. after playing some really really good golf early in the year.

> > > >

> > > > The windmill drill is the way to go, then. It'd be very difficult to hip slide doing the windmill drill.

> > > >

> > > > Ultimately hip internal and external rotation can be a limitation to fully rotating the hips, which can cause all sorts of compensations like sliding. On the throughswing, internal rotation of the lead leg and externl rotation of the trail leg can limit rotation. You never hear it mentioned in videos because most of those folks have decent flexibility so it's not top of mind for them.

> > >

> > > I am more flexible then most. My biggest limit is that I am a decent sized human being. I am not sure that I understand what you mean by internal rotation of the lead led and external rotation of the trail though. In my mind that seems backwards.

> >

> > Size shouldn't be a limiter if hip flexibility and strength are OK.

> >

> > Hip internal & external rotation often appears to be 'backwards' inexplanation. Think of it this way: when you move into the throughswing you post on the lead leg but your hips continue to turn toward the target. In actuality the thigh of your lead leg is rotating inward toward your crown jewels...

>

> Forgive my ignorance, I do not understand how that is physically possible? I think a get what you are saying in regards to a feel, but I do not see how your leg can rotate clockwise, when the entire rest of your body is going counter clockwise.

For clarity, your lead leg is posted. Stationary. Not moving. Your hips are rotating toward target which "in effect" causes your lead leg to go into internal rotation:

This may help clarify:

In the left image, fit yoga girl is standing still, but rotating her left leg clockwise, causing internal rotation.

In the right image, Fairway Jesus is posting his left leg and rotating his hips anti-clockwise on that posted left leg, also causing internal rotation.

In either case the upper leg is being forced to **rotate inward within the hip socket**, regardless of whether it's the body or the leg that's actually moving in space.

Hopefully this helps.

> @PorscheFan said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @PorscheFan said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @PorscheFan said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > I understand the side bend. My problem is doing it without hip slide. Sliding your hips locks you out and then you early extend because you do not rotate. Or at least that is what I "feel". My swing has been kind of a mess lately. after playing some really really good golf early in the year.

> > > > >

> > > > > The windmill drill is the way to go, then. It'd be very difficult to hip slide doing the windmill drill.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ultimately hip internal and external rotation can be a limitation to fully rotating the hips, which can cause all sorts of compensations like sliding. On the throughswing, internal rotation of the lead leg and externl rotation of the trail leg can limit rotation. You never hear it mentioned in videos because most of those folks have decent flexibility so it's not top of mind for them.

> > > >

> > > > I am more flexible then most. My biggest limit is that I am a decent sized human being. I am not sure that I understand what you mean by internal rotation of the lead led and external rotation of the trail though. In my mind that seems backwards.

> > >

> > > Size shouldn't be a limiter if hip flexibility and strength are OK.

> > >

> > > Hip internal & external rotation often appears to be 'backwards' inexplanation. Think of it this way: when you move into the throughswing you post on the lead leg but your hips continue to turn toward the target. In actuality the thigh of your lead leg is rotating inward toward your crown jewels...

> >

> > Forgive my ignorance, I do not understand how that is physically possible? I think a get what you are saying in regards to a feel, but I do not see how your leg can rotate clockwise, when the entire rest of your body is going counter clockwise.

>

> For clarity, your lead leg is posted. Stationary. Not moving. Your hips are rotating toward target which "in effect" causes your lead leg to go into internal rotation:

>

> This may help clarify:

>

>

>

>

> In the left image, fit yoga girl is standing still, but rotating her left leg clockwise, causing internal rotation.

>

> In the right image, Fairway Jesus is posting his left leg and rotating his hips anti-clockwise on that posted left leg, also causing internal rotation.

>

> In either case the upper leg is being forced to **rotate inward within the hip socket**, regardless of whether it's the body or the leg that's actually moving in space.

>

> Hopefully this helps.

I understand what you are saying now. Thank you. I have some more questions in my mind, but in the interest of not derailing this thread. I will keep them to myself... for now.

So... the thing I have been thinking about all of this is part of early extension results from the trail hip not rotating externally in transition/early downswing. This external rotation lets the trail leg remain stable as the lead side opens up. If it doesn’t then I can’t sustain the hip depth I created in backswing.

The second thing is the whole ‘jump’ thing also still mystifies me. The best I can figure is after the lead hip externally rotates, then the lead glute braces, sort of applying the brakes to the lead side’s motion, especially lateral motion. This seems to support the right tilt - which also seems to need good left tilt going back. But using vertical ground forces just aren’t fitting in yet for me. Seems to me I need to get lead hip deep more than high. Somewhere I read that some people rely on rotational forces and others on vertical. I take refuge in this...

This sounds complex. But all of it seems to help my swing produce more consistent solid impact.

> @wmblake2000 said:

> So... the thing I have been thinking about all of this is part of early extension results from the trail hip not rotating externally in transition/early downswing. This external rotation lets the trail leg remain stable as the lead side opens up. If it doesn’t then I can’t sustain the hip depth I created in backswing.

>

> The second thing is the whole ‘jump’ thing also still mystifies me. The best I can figure is after the lead hip externally rotates, then the lead glute braces, sort of applying the brakes to the lead side’s motion, especially lateral motion. This seems to support the right tilt - which also seems to need good left tilt going back. But using vertical ground forces just aren’t fitting in yet for me. Seems to me I need to get lead hip deep more than high. Somewhere I read that some people rely on rotational forces and others on vertical. I take refuge in this...

>

> This sounds complex. But all of it seems to help my swing produce more consistent solid impact.

Lots of good resources of use of GRF. Vertical is that lead foot pushing up and away - but to have it you need to lighten the lead foot in backswing and load it in transition - goal I've seen is to get 150% body weight into lead foot in transition - Wolff measure the highest every at swing catalyst at 284% of his body weight - when and how you do this is important. These are with driver less with irons.

How you move pressure can also effect shot quality and type (those folks can hit a variety of shot patterns from different traces). A draw typically see pressure go from trail heel to front ball of foot - fade more from center trail foot to heel front foot - linear is what it says, goes. Again how and when pressure is shifted is important. Even in short game, it's good to get pressure to your lead heel for those chips/pitches.

Would be nice to add a pressure/force mat to the collection of aids but swing catalyst wants $21K for their top of the line with pressure, vertical/horizontal force, etc. Just $7K for the basic.

But these two sites have a lot of good info. Go to Learning to see articles and video by instructors on how they improved pressure to improve swings.

https://www.swingcatalyst.com/ Or insights at boditrak https://boditrakperformance.com/

Or

and

Thx! Will check sites out.