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Thorbjorn Olsen Arrested on Flight

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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,193Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @brew4eagle said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @brew4eagle said:

    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

    Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it.

    But that leaves me throughly puzzled as to how you can have a victim without irrefutable proof or a conviction. ( we have neither ). I think what you mean to say is plaintiff. Not victim.
    If there are numerous witnesses or irrefutable proof of an actual sexual assault here , in close quarters with all those people , I’m puzzled as to how or why they let it go on more than 20 seconds.( which I’d agree is too long ) What I’m saying is I need much more info for this to add up to anything more than a drunk idiot on a plane. The small parts we have make it hard to connect the dots from drunk guy peeing on a plane to a sexual assault.

    Please explain to me how you convict base on what we know ? That conviction will include identifying a clear victim.

    "Plaintiff" is not the right term. That's traditionally reserved for civil proceedings. We currently have a victim (unknown) and a subject (thunderbear). That's it, simple. Both are "alleged", but in any casefile paperwork (in the U.S. at least) the "alleged" adjective won't be written as it's superfluous. When it gets to court there will be the prosecution (aka complainant) and the defense. I never implied any guilt or a 'real' victim. You're reading way between the lines.

    It’s funny. I realize I have issues putting my thoughts to paper. But I Swanee I believe that all I did was ask the question regarding your use of “ victim “ ...which was directed at me. So it’s not as if I picked you out and attacked. and I agreed with you about the use in terms of court , but tried to explain my reservations with the term regarding public opinion and judgment. Maybe I did a very poor job? ( likely ) But if your last post is accurate , we simply mostly agree. Yet. Some how I doubt that we actually do in reality ? How’s that for who the blank knows ?

    No harm meant to anyone except Terry Gold ( you know I’m kidding Terry ,). As usual I assumed discussion is ok here and it isn’t really. It’s not as if this topic has any current talking points left. So I didn’t truly see the harm in a small side track that stayed with the topic generally. I’ll leave it to you guys.

    Posted:
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  • xxioxxio Cebu, PhilippinesMembers  5846WRX Points: 292Posts: 5,846 Titanium Tees
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    The first link/article uses alleged and on suspicion of.

    If people in this thread want to lynch him for that, that is on them for not having enough understanding of alleged. It is not on the news agency. Otherwise every law enforcer/prosecutor holding a presscon and using alleged and suspicion of should be held to the same standard.

    Posted:
  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members  1325WRX Points: 356Posts: 1,325 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @bscinstnct said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @brew4eagle said:

    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

    Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it.

    But that leaves me throughly puzzled as to how you can have a victim without irrefutable proof or a conviction. ( we have neither ). I think what you mean to say is plaintiff. Not victim.
    If there are numerous witnesses or irrefutable proof of an actual sexual assault here , in close quarters with all those people , I’m puzzled as to how or why they let it go on more than 20 seconds.( which I’d agree is too long ) What I’m saying is I need much more info for this to add up to anything more than a drunk idiot on a plane. The small parts we have make it hard to connect the dots from drunk guy peeing on a plane to a sexual assault.

    Please explain to me how you convict base on what we know ? That conviction will include identifying a clear victim.

    Blade, first, victims of sexual assault are not identified.

    Second, the guy was arrested and charged with sexual assault. The degree of the alleged assault is not specified. If he grabbed or touched a woman inappropriately, even for a moment, would that qualify? I don’t know. But, assuming the arresting officers did their jobs, they did not just have a woman say, “he assaulted me”, and then charge him.

    She would be interviewed, have made an official statement to law enforcement detailing exactly what he did, and other witnesses interviewed.

    I doubt the person would want to spend all this time and realize that she would be called into court to be cross examined, if he didn’t do squat. Who knows and he is innocent until convicted, but I don’t see why anyone would be suspicious of her charge given he was reportedly acting well outside the norm of civilized society.

    First - people are fixated on me even mentioning that. I in no way said that the person should be. Just surprised that it hadn’t leaked. I even said they only had to identify the person to the accused. Maybe not even that in the UK. I have no idea. So let’s squash that bit of misunderstood spin now.

    I’m not suspicious of the charge. Just of the preemptive conviction here , and in broader terms , the entire system.

    No offense. But in a perfect world. I get and know exactly what you’re saying. But I also know that what your saying equals a slam dunk , and they are rare. If it is indeed a slam dunk I’d expect to hear of a plea in exchange for admission ,pretty soon.

    It’s that idea of trusting that the system is in perfect working order that is quite dangerous. Question everything, and what passes , passes... and what doesn’t equals an improvement.

    I’m only pointing out that most here are assuming the system to be without flaw and above question. Otherwise there’s no reason to assume a conviction based on what little we now know. I might even agree that it’s likey he gets convicted. But. My issue is that people assume guilt with no real info. And that is exactly what gets people hooked up with wrongful convictions. Surely you can see what I’m saying ?

    No, only you have created the strawman of a "preemptive conviction," all based on the semantics of using the word victim when you knew exactly what the posters meant.

    Posted:
  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,193Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @chigolfer1 said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @bscinstnct said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @brew4eagle said:

    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

    Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it.

    But that leaves me throughly puzzled as to how you can have a victim without irrefutable proof or a conviction. ( we have neither ). I think what you mean to say is plaintiff. Not victim.
    If there are numerous witnesses or irrefutable proof of an actual sexual assault here , in close quarters with all those people , I’m puzzled as to how or why they let it go on more than 20 seconds.( which I’d agree is too long ) What I’m saying is I need much more info for this to add up to anything more than a drunk idiot on a plane. The small parts we have make it hard to connect the dots from drunk guy peeing on a plane to a sexual assault.

    Please explain to me how you convict base on what we know ? That conviction will include identifying a clear victim.

    Blade, first, victims of sexual assault are not identified.

    Second, the guy was arrested and charged with sexual assault. The degree of the alleged assault is not specified. If he grabbed or touched a woman inappropriately, even for a moment, would that qualify? I don’t know. But, assuming the arresting officers did their jobs, they did not just have a woman say, “he assaulted me”, and then charge him.

    She would be interviewed, have made an official statement to law enforcement detailing exactly what he did, and other witnesses interviewed.

    I doubt the person would want to spend all this time and realize that she would be called into court to be cross examined, if he didn’t do squat. Who knows and he is innocent until convicted, but I don’t see why anyone would be suspicious of her charge given he was reportedly acting well outside the norm of civilized society.

    First - people are fixated on me even mentioning that. I in no way said that the person should be. Just surprised that it hadn’t leaked. I even said they only had to identify the person to the accused. Maybe not even that in the UK. I have no idea. So let’s squash that bit of misunderstood spin now.

    I’m not suspicious of the charge. Just of the preemptive conviction here , and in broader terms , the entire system.

    No offense. But in a perfect world. I get and know exactly what you’re saying. But I also know that what your saying equals a slam dunk , and they are rare. If it is indeed a slam dunk I’d expect to hear of a plea in exchange for admission ,pretty soon.

    It’s that idea of trusting that the system is in perfect working order that is quite dangerous. Question everything, and what passes , passes... and what doesn’t equals an improvement.

    I’m only pointing out that most here are assuming the system to be without flaw and above question. Otherwise there’s no reason to assume a conviction based on what little we now know. I might even agree that it’s likey he gets convicted. But. My issue is that people assume guilt with no real info. And that is exactly what gets people hooked up with wrongful convictions. Surely you can see what I’m saying ?

    No, only you have created the strawman of a "preemptive conviction," all based on the semantics of using the word victim when you knew exactly what the posters meant.

    👍

    Posted:
  • No_Catchy_NicknameNo_Catchy_Nickname Kyushu,_JapanMembers  6278WRX Points: 1,530Handicap: mePosts: 6,278 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Walter Sobchak said:

    On -, @bspn said:

    To all those saying there's no victim, tell that to the poor innocent carpet he pissed all over. Sorry, allegedly pissed all over.

    ...rug really tied the plane together

    Your user name and avatar really tied that comment together.

    Posted:
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  • FergusonFerguson Members  5934WRX Points: 3,395Handicap: 7.0Posts: 5,934 Titanium Tees
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    Maybe Olesen should rethink his attire when traveling.................. a half-unbuttoned shirt with tight trousers is very inappropriate.

    One female passenger suggested, "Everything was fine until Olesen stood up tried to sing and dance like Tom Jones."

    It's not unusual to be loved by Olesen
    It's not unusual to have fun with Olesen
    But when I see you flying about with anyone
    It's not unusual to see me cry, I wanna die
    It's not unusual to urinate any time
    But when I see you out and about it's such a crime
    If you should ever want to be loved by anyone
    It's not unusual it happens every day no matter what you say
    You'll find it happens all the time
    Olesen will do what you want it to
    Why can't this crazy love be mine

    It's not unusual, to be mad with Olesen
    It's not unusual, to be sad with Olesen
    But if I ever find that you've changed at anytime
    It's not unusual to find out that I'm in love with you
    Whoa oh oh oh oh

    Posted:
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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers  9375WRX Points: 3,011Posts: 9,375 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @xxio said:

    The first link/article uses alleged and on suspicion of.

    If people in this thread want to lynch him for that, that is on them for not having enough understanding of alleged. It is not on the news agency. Otherwise every law enforcer/prosecutor holding a presscon and using alleged and suspicion of should be held to the same standard.

    Not only that, but in order for an arrest to me made, their has to be reasonable just cause. The police won't arrest someone just because you said they did something bad, there needs to be reasonable reason to believe the alleged crime occurred based evidence, witnesses, etc.

    Posted:
  • ray9898ray9898 Members  880WRX Points: 295Posts: 880 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Aug 14, 2019 #399

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    Question regarding the investigation that led to arrest. I understood him to be arrested upon landing of the plane. Was that for the peeing incident ? And later the sexual assault charges .... or all at once. If not at once how quick were the sexual assault charges lodged ? What I’m getting at is you say it’s not “ one person said and then he was arrested , there was an investigation that led to charges “. Can this be done in 24 hours or less ?

    It can be done in 5 minutes. For all we know there is the victim and a 1/2 dozen witnesses who observed the whole thing. If you have multiple statements all essentially saying "I saw that man grope that females ________ as she was sleeping'. You have more than enough evidence to tender the charge immediately.

    Posted:
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 IowaClubWRX  21663WRX Points: 5,660Posts: 21,663 ClubWRX
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    On -, @Ferguson said:

    Maybe Olesen should rethink his attire when traveling.................. a half-unbuttoned shirt with tight trousers is very inappropriate.

    One female passenger suggested, "Everything was fine until Olesen stood up tried to sing and dance like Tom Jones."

    It's not unusual to be loved by Olesen
    It's not unusual to have fun with Olesen
    But when I see you flying about with anyone
    It's not unusual to see me cry, I wanna die
    It's not unusual to urinate any time
    But when I see you out and about it's such a crime
    If you should ever want to be loved by anyone
    It's not unusual it happens every day no matter what you say
    You'll find it happens all the time
    Olesen will do what you want it to
    Why can't this crazy love be mine

    It's not unusual, to be mad with Olesen
    It's not unusual, to be sad with Olesen
    But if I ever find that you've changed at anytime
    It's not unusual to find out that I'm in love with you
    Whoa oh oh oh oh

    LOL!

    Something to "Thunderball" would be nice - a Tom Jones little appreciated masterpiece.

    Posted:
  • PowderedToastManPowderedToastMan Members  4363WRX Points: 1,634Posts: 4,363 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Terry Gold said:

    I'm not a lawyer but i play one on the internet.
    By the way, I can also fix Jordan Spieth.
    Pathetic.

    You realize there are actual lawyers on this board, right?

    Posted:
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  • cfunk11cfunk11 Members  285WRX Points: 58Handicap: 15Posts: 285 Greens
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    What would be charged with if he got **** on somebody when he was urinating aisle? Would it be different than just pissing on the carpet?

    Posted:
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  • Bingo1976Bingo1976 Members  2603WRX Points: 302Handicap: 6.8Posts: 2,603 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @ray9898 said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    Question regarding the investigation that led to arrest. I understood him to be arrested upon landing of the plane. Was that for the peeing incident ? And later the sexual assault charges .... or all at once. If not at once how quick were the sexual assault charges lodged ? What I’m getting at is you say it’s not “ one person said and then he was arrested , there was an investigation that led to charges “. Can this be done in 24 hours or less ?

    It can be done in 5 minutes. For all we know there is the victim and a 1/2 dozen witnesses who observed the whole thing. If you have multiple statements all essentially saying "I saw that man grope that females ________ as she was sleeping'. You have more than enough evidence to tender the charge immediately.

    In the UK, you usually have 24 hours* from when the suspect arrives at the local police station to gather enough evidence to press charges (or not). Or he may have confessed when he had sobered up. We will find out more when he enters a plea at this hearing at the magistrates court, and will get a better idea of the potential sentencing when they decide to refer the case to a Crown Court.
    Note that a Magistrates Court is tried by 3 Magistrates (a type of Judge) and Crown Court is a Judge and a 12 person Jury. Magistrates court can only hand out a maximum 6 month sentence, so if he goes to Crown Court, he may be looking at jail time (as the Magistrates would deem the offences to be serious enough that they are unable to adequately punish him). Entering an early guilty plea will also reduce the tariff of any sentence.

    *I am too tired to google the exact timing, but I think this is correct. I am also not a lawyer, but have a keen interest in the law as it is practiced in the UK. I am also able to use Google when I haven't been training Jiu Jitsu at lunch

    Posted:
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  • FergusonFerguson Members  5934WRX Points: 3,395Handicap: 7.0Posts: 5,934 Titanium Tees
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    Something to "Thunderball" would be nice - a Tom Jones little appreciated masterpiece.

    He always takes a cart while others walk
    He putts while other men just chip
    He urinates when he wants
    So Olesen strikes, like Thunderball

    He knows the meaning of success
    His needs are more, so he hits less
    They call him the champion golfer who takes all
    And Olesen strikes, like Thunderball

    Any flight attendant he wants, he'll get
    He will break any toilet without regret

    His days of laying up are all gone
    This thread goes on and on and on
    But he thinks that the flight is worth it all
    So Olesen strikes, like Thunderball

    Posted:
  • compton1977compton1977 Members  458WRX Points: 91Posts: 458 Greens
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    C’mon Ferguson it’s not Thunderball it’s Thunderbear!!

    Posted:
  • ray9898ray9898 Members  880WRX Points: 295Posts: 880 Golden Tee
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    On -, @cfunk11 said:

    What would be charged with if he got **** on somebody when he was urinating aisle? Would it be different than just pissing on the carpet?

    It can be a form of battery depending on the laws. Most places criminalize unwanted contact under certain conditions which extends to bodily fluids, same as if you spit on someone.

    Posted:
  • MattyO1984MattyO1984 Members  6182WRX Points: 1,640Handicap: 3Posts: 6,182 Titanium Tees
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    So today is the day for Thorbjorn to appear in Court. It's simply a pleading type diet with no evidence to be heard but it should be interesting to see which way he goes in terms of a plea.

    Posted:
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  • tideridertiderider Members  3102WRX Points: 2,136Handicap: 5ishPosts: 3,102 Titanium Tees
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    Did you say ‘plea” or ‘pee’?

    Posted:
  • No_Catchy_NicknameNo_Catchy_Nickname Kyushu,_JapanMembers  6278WRX Points: 1,530Handicap: mePosts: 6,278 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @MattyO1984 said:

    So today is the day for Thorbjorn to appear in Court. It's simply a pleading type diet with no evidence to be heard but it should be interesting to see which way he goes in terms of a plea.

    Not seen anything in the news yet, even though it's nearly 5pm UK time.

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  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers  3390WRX Points: 1,202Posts: 3,390 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @MattyO1984 said:

    So today is the day for Thorbjorn to appear in Court. It's simply a pleading type diet with no evidence to be heard but it should be interesting to see which way he goes in terms of a plea.

    Not seen anything in the news yet, even though it's nearly 5pm UK time.

    No it's just after 1pm in the UK.

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  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers  3390WRX Points: 1,202Posts: 3,390 Titanium Tees
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    Posted:
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  • No_Catchy_NicknameNo_Catchy_Nickname Kyushu,_JapanMembers  6278WRX Points: 1,530Handicap: mePosts: 6,278 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @OldTomMorris said:

    On -, @MattyO1984 said:

    So today is the day for Thorbjorn to appear in Court. It's simply a pleading type diet with no evidence to be heard but it should be interesting to see which way he goes in terms of a plea.

    Not seen anything in the news yet, even though it's nearly 5pm UK time.

    No it's just after 1pm in the UK.

    Oops, you're quite right.
    I'm not quite sure how I managed to subtract 8 (the time difference between the UK and Japan) from 20:40 and end up with "nearly 5pm".

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  • Enduro59Enduro59 Members  155WRX Points: 138Posts: 155 Fairways
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    On -, @ebrasmus21 said:

    On -, @Babydaddy said:

    On -, @ray9898 said:

    On -, @cfunk11 said:

    What would be charged with if he got **** on somebody when he was urinating aisle? Would it be different than just pissing on the carpet?

    It can be a form of battery depending on the laws. Most places criminalize unwanted contact under certain conditions which extends to bodily fluids, same as if you spit on someone.

    I have to say- I understand that the me too movement probably needed to happen- but I also think in the age of social media all of the things which have been negative about the press, and media in general, are amplified by 1000. Many people have a hair-trigger about anything to do with "sexual assault".
    I don't like how people are just crucified out in the open purely on witch-hunt conjecture.
    Now- Olesen may have really done some dumb stuff- and if I was a betting man I'd say he mixed a sleeping pill with a couple of drinks (which is a BAD idea) and then just disintegrated into that ambien netherworld.
    But we don't really know exactly what happened- and even if let's say he groped a woman, he was obviously out of his mind in an uncharacteristic way. I guess what I'm saying is I hope collectively people can not permanently put people in some category just because of a one-off event that is fueled by a bad combination of medicine and drink.
    Working in the mental health field one of the main things we look, particularly with suicide attempts, is the role that drug combinations play. Weird and uncharacteristic things can happen when drugs are combined. Olesen doesn't have a criminal record and doesn't appear to be a hoodlum- so really, I think people should be given the beneift of the doubt until the facts come out.
    If he made worse mistakes while intoxicated, I hope he will get the help he needs.

    Your post is reasonable and rational. The often talked about yet rarely seen reasonable post.

                                    Agreed. Many on this forum including myself could learn a thing or two from Babydaddy.
    
    Posted:
  • DpavsDpavs OverWRX'ed MichiganClubWRX  3950WRX Points: 581Posts: 3,950 ClubWRX
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    I do agree that social media can be unnecessarily harsh at times but I am not sure I have seen much in the way of calling for the young man's head.

    That said, does anybody really believe that they do not have a pretty concrete idea of what happened given it was on an aircraft with plenty of witnesses?

    Also, let's not forget that playing on any of the tours is a privilege not a right. Your screw up and exercise very bad judgment resulting in something that is deserving of removal of that privilege that's on you. Reasonable goes two ways.

    As for the U.K. justice system, at this point I think we have to hope it will do the right thing, whatever that is.

    And I do agree also, that if the young man is abusing anything and that is an issue for him, he needs to reach out and get the help he needs.

    Posted:
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  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members  29217WRX Points: 6,052Posts: 29,217 Titanium Tees
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    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/golf/thorbjorn-olesen-sexual-assault-trial-latest-not-guilty-woman-sleeping-flight-a9073221.html

    Ryder Cup winning golfer Thorbjorn Olesen pleads not guilty to sexual assault and being drunk on a plane

    Ryder Cup winner Thorbjorn Olesen is to face trial charged with sexual assault and being drunk on an aircraft.

    The 29-year-old Danish golf star indicated that he would plead not guilty to the offences when he made a brief appearance at Uxbridge Magistrates' Court on Wednesday.

    Olesen, of Redcliffe Road in Chelsea, south-west London, was arrested on July 29, immediately after returning from the World Golf Championships-FedEx St Jude Invitational on a flight from Nashville to London.

    The five-time European Tour winner is also charged with assault by beating.

    He wore a suit to the court hearing on Wednesday afternoon and spoke only to confirm his name, address, date of birth and nationality, as well as indicating not guilty pleas.

    Olesen was granted unconditional bail and is expected to appear at Isleworth Crown Court on September 18.

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    Posted:
  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers  3390WRX Points: 1,202Posts: 3,390 Titanium Tees
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  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers  3390WRX Points: 1,202Posts: 3,390 Titanium Tees
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    The trial starts the day before the BMW @ Wentworth.

    Posted:
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  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members  29217WRX Points: 6,052Posts: 29,217 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @OldTomMorris said:

    The trial starts the day before the BMW @ Wentworth.

    I don't think it will go to trial. I would imagine both sides are going to play chicken then make a deal.

    Posted:
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