I know jacked lofts has been done to death...

But I really don't understand this. Callaway have literally made a 7 iron that is a 5 iron. The argument used to be "well the club is shorter so it's easier to hit" but now they've just basically made it the same length. It just bothers be because I feel as though it's kind of dishonest marketing to those who don't understand golf clubs fully. A sh*t golfer or aging golfer walks in and goes "wow I can hit my 7 iron 180 yards now/again!" not realizing that they are in fact not hitting a 7 iron at all. Just put the loft number on the bottom and call it a day. What a sham.

I saw a review yesterday and the reviewer was hitting 180+ 8iron. The peak height was way higher than avg height with an 8iron so they wouldn't do as well in wind. But distance sells no matter how they achieve it.

Jacked lofts has been done for decades. My oldest set in my basement (1971 Wilson Staffs) has its PW factory set at 51 deg, which is a GW loft these days. My second oldest set is my 1988 845s which was originally touted as a GI set and its factory loft on its PW set at 48 deg, which was considered jacked up back in those days but considered very conservative nowadays found only in today's blades or players CB. 20 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if I see a 40 deg PW as the norm with a 8 iron length.

> @cgasucks said:

> Jacked lofts has been done for decades. My oldest set in my basement (1971 Wilson Staffs) has its PW factory set at 51 deg, which is a GW loft these days. My second oldest set is my 1988 845s which was originally touted as a GI set and its factory loft on its PW set at 48 deg, which was considered jacked up back in those days but considered very conservative nowadays found only in today's blades or players CB. 20 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if I see 40 deg PW as the norm at an 8 iron length.

That's why just putting lofts on makes much more sense IMO. I liked that Hogan was doing that for a while. I do feel as though that's a hard sell to the masses though as they don't think about lofts. A 7 is just a 7.

It's been done to death, by your own admission, so what's the point in this thread?

The sham is golfers like you complaining about irons that aren't marketing towards you.

**_"I know jacked lofts has been done to death..."_**

Yes, done to death.

A 5 iron from the 1950's was what? Something like 32 degrees?

That said, those Epic Forged irons (5-iron at 21* and 38.75" length) are ludicrous. I refuse to purchase any set that requires TWO gap wedges.

> @Nessism said:

> **_"I know jacked lofts has been done to death..."_**

>

> Yes, done to death.

> A 5 iron from the 1950's was what? Something like 32 degrees?

> That said, those Epic Forged irons (5-iron at 21* and 38.75" length) are ludicrous. I refuse to purchase any set that requires TWO gap wedges.

I agree. Although technology has made a positive overall influence on club design, there is also a point at which things have gone too far. There is a reason lofts have come down over the years and I feel as though in modern terms, a 34 degree 7 iron is the benchmark. A 7 iron that is almost an inch longer and 7 degrees stronger is a bit ludicrous, and as you say, needing two gap wedges kind of shows that the 5-GW2 set you're playing is a actually just a 3-PW set.

> @Nessism said:

> **_"I know jacked lofts has been done to death..."_**

>

> Yes, done to death.

> A 5 iron from the 1950's was what? Something like 32 degrees?

> That said, those Epic Forged irons (****_5-iron at 21_***** and 38.75" length) are ludicrous. I refuse to purchase any set that requires TWO gap wedges.

A 21 Deg. 5 iron!??! Daymn that's strong.

> @balls_deep said:

> But I really don't understand this. Callaway have literally made a 7 iron that is a 5 iron. The argument used to be "well the club is shorter so it's easier to hit" but now they've just basically made it the same length. It just bothers be because I feel as though it's kind of dishonest marketing to those who don't understand golf clubs fully. A sh*t golfer or aging golfer walks in and goes "wow I can hit my 7 iron 180 yards now/again!" not realizing that they are in fact not hitting a 7 iron at all. Just put the loft number on the bottom and call it a day. What a sham.

>

Whats even more a sham is because of this, we are only offered a 4-pw now as a standard set, versus 3-pw of old and for the same price(and in recent cases way more) They are giving us one less club, because no one can hit a 18 degree 3 iron or whatever it is, so they stop at 4. Meanwhile you now need to purchase additional wedges because the pw is like an 8 iron now. They should really at LEAST offer a aw standard with these sets.

> @Red4282 said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > But I really don't understand this. Callaway have literally made a 7 iron that is a 5 iron. The argument used to be "well the club is shorter so it's easier to hit" but now they've just basically made it the same length. It just bothers be because I feel as though it's kind of dishonest marketing to those who don't understand golf clubs fully. A sh*t golfer or aging golfer walks in and goes "wow I can hit my 7 iron 180 yards now/again!" not realizing that they are in fact not hitting a 7 iron at all. Just put the loft number on the bottom and call it a day. What a sham.

> >

> Whats even more a sham is because of this, we are only offered a 4-pw now as a standard set, versus 3-pw of old and for the same price(and in recent cases way more) They are giving us one less club, because no one can hit a 18 degree 3 iron or whatever it is, so they stop at 4. Meanwhile you now need to purchase additional wedges because the pw is like an 8 iron now. They should really at LEAST offer a aw standard with these sets.

>

>

Completely agree. My dad plays AP1 and his 48 W1 is meant to be purchased with 52 degree W2 and then I assume people go 56 60. That set came standard 4-PW as you say though, so in theory you're now needing to buy 9 clubs total and potentially run a 5 wedge set with 44, 48, 52, 56, 60. He runs what would be a 3 wedge set in traditional irons with 48, 54, 58. His PW is 43 or 44 degrees. He kind of understands lofts but still thinks he's only hitting one more club than me when I'm hitting 8 and he's hitting 7. Add to all of this that D plane and many amateur golfers are being sold down the river with some slickly marketed koolaid.

Mistake on my part. Apologies all

I started playing when a 21* 3-iron to 47* PW was common.

Honestly, I think the current sets with a 50* GW work better, as I've always liked a 54* sand wedge and then a lob wedge.

But if loft is loft, why do people care if the 50* is stamped GW or PW (30 years ago)? There seems to be just as much pride saying I have a 48 degree PW as the other way around.

I do think the AP1 lofts are awkward but that is only because I'm trying to build off a 54 degree sand wedge. Increase everything stronger yet and make the W2 50 degrees and it's all the same to me.

I do see the point of a useless 4-iron (or even 5-iron for some) but can't you just order by the club now anyways (PING you can)?

I think Callaway pushes it as far as they can just to see if suckers...I mean golfers will bite and then they sit back and laugh as they get traded in and they get to sell them again.

> @agolf1 said:

> I started playing when a 21* 3-iron to 47* PW was common.

>

> Honestly, I think the current sets with a 50* GW work better, as I've always liked a 54* sand wedge and then a lob wedge.

>

> But if loft is loft, why do people care if the 50* is stamped GW or PW (30 years ago)? There seems to be just as much pride saying I have a 48 degree PW as the other way around.

>

> I do think the AP1 lofts are awkward but that is only because I'm trying to build off a 54 degree sand wedge. Increase everything stronger yet and make the W2 50 degrees and it's all the same to me.

>

> I do see the point of a useless 4-iron (or even 5-iron for some) but can't you just order by the club now anyways (PING you can)?

I agree, on here there is more ego with "I play a 48 or 49* PW" just as bad as saying you hit your 27 degree further than my 34 degree 7 iron. That said, as above, I think the main issue is people being obsessed with distance and not understanding how clubs work. I can't play low spinning irons - I get fliers. I also think forgiveness is way overstated. The player spending $350 per club to get extra distance and forgiveness is not getting what they're paying for IMO.

That's been practiced by almost all the OEM from ages ago til today.

Longer -It sells, bottom line counts. Do you think the OEM really cares about which iron we use to reach the 150 yards target ? They just want to sell you another set of golf clubs. With false promises, sometimes.

The numbers stamped on the sole of the golf club really does not mean much to me, since I have sets from the 60's to the modern days and all of them don't have a standard loft on the sets.

Reading off the numbers of loft on the sole as a few OEM had tried to do in the past would not work well. Reading off another digit of numbers is really too much work to process for the most of the golfers. Does the number of 22degree much different than say, 23 ? 25?

Besides, the element for the human inconsistency of delivering the golf club to the golf ball, the uneven lies , the turf condition............ Don't try to make this game the same as one plays on the flat screen with a control pad.

Thing is, get familiar with a few sets of golf clubs and know the distance. So if a 150 yards comes as the distance for the next target, one would quickly determine of which clubs to use.

Or, learn the game as most of the golf greats did. Learn to use just one golf club for different shots.

Seve, learned from an old 3 iron. Bobby Jones learn the game from a shorten 3 wood............as was TW.

One really does not need to dial in the loft and the numbers to play this game. If one believes so, then, one had been brain washed by the OEM, caught in the motion of growing the game ( for their profit ).

One could say, this set , design "feels better". or this set is more forgiving . But, one could not say, this set is longer. Law of constant stays the same if everything else is within the allowed tolerance.

So if a golfer stays in the same condition ( more or less), the equipment of golf clubs with similar construction/material /design should not yield extraordinary different results.

The U.S.G.A. has imposed the rules for conformity, so shouldn't be any surprise coming out of the golf clubs. Unless there is a break through in material going into golf clubs, the head, shaft and even the grips.

Of course the golf balls, which has change the game since the early 20th century.

> @agolf1 said:

> But if loft is loft, why do people care if the 50* is stamped GW or PW (30 years ago)?

The only issue for me is that the AP1 PW is a 9 iron head mated to a PW shaft. But the fix is simple. Just order the clubs with the shafts 1/2" long and 1* flat and you'll have a modern set of clubs with traditional lofts, lengths and lies. Yes the swing weights will be off but oh well...

Couple issues here...

First one is there is a big difference in the consumer these are targeted at vs the reviewers hitting 185 yard 8 irons. NOBODY that has that much speed will be going out and buying these.

Secondly If it wasn't for the lower lofts these would just go WAY too high. The speed off these faces and the spin created by the tech means that they need to do this to hit the proper launch windows - for the target player.

> @balls_deep said:

> That's why just putting lofts on makes much more sense IMO. I liked that Hogan was doing that for a while. I do feel as though that's a hard sell to the masses though as they don't think about lofts. A 7 is just a 7.

Agree with you. I thought it was awesome too.

But a 50 is a 50 and a 54 a 54 and 60 a 60. You just got to keep going up the set.

Yes, I totally agree that your complaint has been done to death.

Heaven forfend some guy might think he hits his 8-iron longer than you because of "jacked lofts". There outta be a law!

I play MP18 MBs, and have finally accepted that I need to switch to four wedges from three because the PW is so strong. I considered just getting everything bent weak, but I just love the way they set up behind the ball and move through the dirt so much as is.

Bottom line is it's just the new normal. The 2 iron will be as rare as the 1 iron shortly.

> @cgasucks said:

> Jacked lofts has been done for decades. My oldest set in my basement (1971 Wilson Staffs) has its PW factory set at 51 deg, which is a GW loft these days. My second oldest set is my 1988 845s which was originally touted as a GI set and its factory loft on its PW set at 48 deg, which was considered jacked up back in those days but considered very conservative nowadays found only in today's blades or players CB. 20 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if I see a 40 deg PW as the norm with a 8 iron length.

I used to have an old set of Spalding irons from the post WW2 era, the 9 iron was around 52*, I don't think they even made a "wedge" for the set. Just 1-9 iron.

Get over it. Play what you want and have fun. Jacked lofts are here to stay.

It must be time for the loft to be printed on the sole rather than a number. Then people can compare apples with apples.

Let the Ben Hogan really took the market by storm with that approach.

> @tobybear said:

> If it wasn't for the lower lofts these would just go WAY too high. The speed off these faces and the spin created by the tech means that they need to do this to hit the proper launch windows - for the target player.

This.

I’m amazed that as golf crazy posters here are that they can’t get this through their thick heads and stop whining about “jacked lofts.”

Wise up, people and then shut up about this issue.

I know that jacked lofts has been done over, and over, and over, and over again here, but these irons really do take it to a new level...an 18* 4 iron that plays at 39.5". I have one of those too, but it has a "2" stamped in the bottom. I see these possibly creating some head scratching among those that shell out the better than $2k for them when suddenly they start becoming inconsistent with a 7 iron, which, to the OP's point IS the same loft and length as something like an AP2, JPX 919 Tour, or X-Forged (i.e. the more "traditionally" lofted) 5 iron. That said, it is what it is. The distance arms race is a thing that we're all going to have to live with.

> @Bye said:

> It must be time for the loft to be printed on the sole rather than a number. Then people can compare apples with apples.

But how many people other than a few on golf forums want to compare? I only really care about how far I hit each club in the set I have. I don't care what my friend hits from the same distance and I certainly don't care what the lofts of his clubs are. I likely wont look at clubs with more than one gap wedge in a set but other than that I really only care how far I hit each club whatever it may have stamped on the sole.

I agree with the OP that the new callaways are taking the mick a bit bearing in mind the club length for a '7' is now the same as a old 5 - so its a 5 iron with a slightly bigger head?

Also the distances that the youtube guys get is nowhere near what the average joe will get - the gains wont be 2 clubs in distance as most high handicappers strike is all over the place (I know mine is)

Alluded to by the crossfieled posts linked - mid to high handicapper can probably launch these clubs easier but dispersion may still end up with them missing the green -

A shot from 200 yards is still tricky no matter what the number on the sole -

Has anyone taken a group of amateurs with handicaps from 10-20 and tested what they score on a hole with old and new jacked clubs - distance is not the only reason for poor scoring.