Is there a limit to how good someone can get at golf?

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Although for some reason it's fashionable to believe that we're all equal, and that talent is overrated, I totally disagree. We are not all equal. Each of us is unique. Some people are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., and no amount of training and or instruction in the world is going to transform a **** into a diamond. Not everyone has the athletic and mental traits to be a scratch or better golfer, just as not every scratch golfer has what it takes to become a Tour player, no matter how much they want it and how hard they work.

    Now that's not to say you can't be the best version of yourself. And I'd agree that very few reach THEIR full potential in any endeavor, in golf or whatever the activity. To that end we're ultimately limited by our swing mechanics/technique, our willingness to put the time in practicing, our mental approach including optimism and confidence among other traits, and our willingness to persevere and tough it out.

    I totally agree. I watched an old vlog by Be Better Golf recently. He was playing with a former college tennis and basketball player or something. Apparently the guy had only been playing golf 8 months, was a single digit handicap and had made two aces already. It just comes easier to some people.

    I think there are skill sets that cross over. If someone played tennis or hockey or similar then I think golf will come more easily to you than someone who never played any sports.

    But I also know a guy who took the game up at about 12. When he was 16 his handicap was about 18 and he practiced and played religiously. He’s now I think about 41. His handicap is +3. I wouldn’t say he had natural talent for the game. What he did have was a work ethic.

    Undoubtedly there are physical traits that will make life easier, but I don’t think anyone fit and healthy can’t get to scratch if they start young enough and work hard at it.

    Yep i agree with you. Now take the raw natural athletic ability of this college athlete i mentioned, give it to your friend who is now a +3, and we are probably talking about a tour player.

    That's a stretch. I'd be willing to bet his friend has more natural talent than he's being credited with having. It's more likely that when he was younger he had misconceptions about the golf swing and was practicing/grooving the wrong things. Somewhere along the line he either got some good instruction, or discovered proper technique on his own.

    How do you know that the people you know who can't break 80 despite playing 150 rounds a year and practising don't have misconceptions about the golf swing or lack good instruction? I think a lot of people assign the word "talent" to what is really "working hard on the right things".

    I dont disagree entirely, but there are thousands who pursue it like it's a full-time job with top level instruction, discipline, and enthusiasm who will never even be low single digits, let alone scratch or Tour.

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  • Ty_WebbTy_Webb New YorkMembers Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Although for some reason it's fashionable to believe that we're all equal, and that talent is overrated, I totally disagree. We are not all equal. Each of us is unique. Some people are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., and no amount of training and or instruction in the world is going to transform a **** into a diamond. Not everyone has the athletic and mental traits to be a scratch or better golfer, just as not every scratch golfer has what it takes to become a Tour player, no matter how much they want it and how hard they work.

    Now that's not to say you can't be the best version of yourself. And I'd agree that very few reach THEIR full potential in any endeavor, in golf or whatever the activity. To that end we're ultimately limited by our swing mechanics/technique, our willingness to put the time in practicing, our mental approach including optimism and confidence among other traits, and our willingness to persevere and tough it out.

    I totally agree. I watched an old vlog by Be Better Golf recently. He was playing with a former college tennis and basketball player or something. Apparently the guy had only been playing golf 8 months, was a single digit handicap and had made two aces already. It just comes easier to some people.

    I think there are skill sets that cross over. If someone played tennis or hockey or similar then I think golf will come more easily to you than someone who never played any sports.

    But I also know a guy who took the game up at about 12. When he was 16 his handicap was about 18 and he practiced and played religiously. He’s now I think about 41. His handicap is +3. I wouldn’t say he had natural talent for the game. What he did have was a work ethic.

    Undoubtedly there are physical traits that will make life easier, but I don’t think anyone fit and healthy can’t get to scratch if they start young enough and work hard at it.

    Yep i agree with you. Now take the raw natural athletic ability of this college athlete i mentioned, give it to your friend who is now a +3, and we are probably talking about a tour player.

    That's a stretch. I'd be willing to bet his friend has more natural talent than he's being credited with having. It's more likely that when he was younger he had misconceptions about the golf swing and was practicing/grooving the wrong things. Somewhere along the line he either got some good instruction, or discovered proper technique on his own.

    How do you know that the people you know who can't break 80 despite playing 150 rounds a year and practising don't have misconceptions about the golf swing or lack good instruction? I think a lot of people assign the word "talent" to what is really "working hard on the right things".

    I dont disagree entirely, but there are thousands who pursue it like it's a full-time job with top level instruction, discipline, and enthusiasm who will never even be low single digits, let alone scratch or Tour.

    I have never seen them. I've been around the game for a quite a while. Most of the people who can't break 80 show up to play a couple of times a week and just go play. They might warm up. The ones out there who take lessons show up and do their half an hour and then go home. The next time they're there when the pro says "how did your practice go?" they reply "oh, er, yeah..."

    If they actually applied themselves, they'd get better, but they don't.

    There are certain traits that help you get better. Hand-eye coordination for one. I'm sure there are people out there who just can't make contact with the ball consistently no matter how hard they try. Likely that's because they didn't play any sports when they were younger. Kids learn this stuff pretty quickly and easily. Adults don't. I know you're a decent player. How often do you get lessons? How often do you practice? Could you do more? If you did, do you think you'd improve? What sports did you play as a kid? I mean under age 10.

    For me, I played soccer, tennis and a little bit of cricket when I was under 10. I was never particularly good at soccer. I was okay at tennis and quite fancied myself as a player until I played a match against a kid who was actually good and I barely got a point off him. I started playing golf at 14 and I got a lot of lessons and I worked at it really hard. I got down to scratch when I was 23. Had a few years in the doldrums in my 30s. Got some lessons again a few years ago and am now playing probably the best golf of my life, despite a battle with chip/pitch yips. Lovely. I'd love to see how good I could get if I actually had real time to put into it. As it is I wind up playing in tournaments against kids who play every day. I play about 25 rounds a year give or take and I try to get to the range for about half an hour once a week. I hold my own, but I'm not likely to win them. I am certainly not a remarkable athlete. And I never stood out in any other sports. But I worked my butt off at golf and got to be reasonably decent. There's nothing about me that says most people couldn't do what I did. Now if you're 60 and a 18 handicap, sure, single figures isn't happening, but if you're young and healthy then hard work will get you there unless, like someone else mentioned, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

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  • rich srich s Members Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think a lot of people responding have never truly seen a horrible golfer. There is a limit, everyone has one. This can't be disputed, its just fact. Nobody has ever played even close to perfect golf, ever, in the history of the sport.

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Although for some reason it's fashionable to believe that we're all equal, and that talent is overrated, I totally disagree. We are not all equal. Each of us is unique. Some people are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., and no amount of training and or instruction in the world is going to transform a **** into a diamond. Not everyone has the athletic and mental traits to be a scratch or better golfer, just as not every scratch golfer has what it takes to become a Tour player, no matter how much they want it and how hard they work.

    Now that's not to say you can't be the best version of yourself. And I'd agree that very few reach THEIR full potential in any endeavor, in golf or whatever the activity. To that end we're ultimately limited by our swing mechanics/technique, our willingness to put the time in practicing, our mental approach including optimism and confidence among other traits, and our willingness to persevere and tough it out.

    I totally agree. I watched an old vlog by Be Better Golf recently. He was playing with a former college tennis and basketball player or something. Apparently the guy had only been playing golf 8 months, was a single digit handicap and had made two aces already. It just comes easier to some people.

    I think there are skill sets that cross over. If someone played tennis or hockey or similar then I think golf will come more easily to you than someone who never played any sports.

    But I also know a guy who took the game up at about 12. When he was 16 his handicap was about 18 and he practiced and played religiously. He’s now I think about 41. His handicap is +3. I wouldn’t say he had natural talent for the game. What he did have was a work ethic.

    Undoubtedly there are physical traits that will make life easier, but I don’t think anyone fit and healthy can’t get to scratch if they start young enough and work hard at it.

    Yep i agree with you. Now take the raw natural athletic ability of this college athlete i mentioned, give it to your friend who is now a +3, and we are probably talking about a tour player.

    That's a stretch. I'd be willing to bet his friend has more natural talent than he's being credited with having. It's more likely that when he was younger he had misconceptions about the golf swing and was practicing/grooving the wrong things. Somewhere along the line he either got some good instruction, or discovered proper technique on his own.

    How do you know that the people you know who can't break 80 despite playing 150 rounds a year and practising don't have misconceptions about the golf swing or lack good instruction? I think a lot of people assign the word "talent" to what is really "working hard on the right things".

    I dont disagree entirely, but there are thousands who pursue it like it's a full-time job with top level instruction, discipline, and enthusiasm who will never even be low single digits, let alone scratch or Tour.

    I have never seen them. I've been around the game for a quite a while. Most of the people who can't break 80 show up to play a couple of times a week and just go play. They might warm up. The ones out there who take lessons show up and do their half an hour and then go home. The next time they're there when the pro says "how did your practice go?" they reply "oh, er, yeah..."

    If they actually applied themselves, they'd get better, but they don't.

    There are certain traits that help you get better. Hand-eye coordination for one. I'm sure there are people out there who just can't make contact with the ball consistently no matter how hard they try. Likely that's because they didn't play any sports when they were younger. Kids learn this stuff pretty quickly and easily. Adults don't. I know you're a decent player. How often do you get lessons? How often do you practice? Could you do more? If you did, do you think you'd improve? What sports did you play as a kid? I mean under age 10.

    For me, I played soccer, tennis and a little bit of cricket when I was under 10. I was never particularly good at soccer. I was okay at tennis and quite fancied myself as a player until I played a match against a kid who was actually good and I barely got a point off him. I started playing golf at 14 and I got a lot of lessons and I worked at it really hard. I got down to scratch when I was 23. Had a few years in the doldrums in my 30s. Got some lessons again a few years ago and am now playing probably the best golf of my life, despite a battle with chip/pitch yips. Lovely. I'd love to see how good I could get if I actually had real time to put into it. As it is I wind up playing in tournaments against kids who play every day. I play about 25 rounds a year give or take and I try to get to the range for about half an hour once a week. I hold my own, but I'm not likely to win them. I am certainly not a remarkable athlete. And I never stood out in any other sports. But I worked my butt off at golf and got to be reasonably decent. There's nothing about me that says most people couldn't do what I did. Now if you're 60 and a 18 handicap, sure, single figures isn't happening, but if you're young and healthy then hard work will get you there unless, like someone else mentioned, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

    ****! So what are we talking about? Single figures, low single figures, scratch, top Am, pro, or hall of fame pro?

    For some reason people seem to think that golf is different than other sports and that natural ability (talent) is irrelevant. All BS. Some people have the goods, most don't.

    Michael Jordan is arguably the best athlete in the world. He loves golf and has for years (since college). He's had extensive lessons from the very best instructors. He plays and practices daily at the best and most challenging courses, yet he's barely a 4 HC. If all it took were dedication, hours, and instruction he'd be on Tour, but guess what? He can't even beat me (and I'm a nobody...lol) who didn't start til almost 30.

    P.S. MJ, if you read this just please know I'll play you for whatever you like, as long as it's in units relative to each of our personal net worths. And sorry I didn't let you play thru at Mirasol...lol!

    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,447 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Krt22 said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @Krt22 said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @Krt22 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    I think one of the biggest obstacles to getting to one's limit is the basic misunderstanding or misinterpretation of how a good solid swing really works. A lot gets lost in the reception & processing of that info and even more gets lost in the translation from concept to physical movement. It can all be pretty opaque and highly misguided and remain that way forever. Some guys take up the game and find a great P6 position intuitively or by accident and go on to do well, many never even come close. The golf swing has little use in the day to day of people. Throw a ball? We all have some experience with that, throw a club underneath your body and pinch one off the turf, what caveman used that method for hunting?

    You need more Shawn Clement in your life.

    No I really don't.

    You were looking for motions that parallel the golf swing. Just cut the grass man, cut the grass.

    I see a golf swing is more like a flying huo kick in martial arts, both takes the same amount of body & rotational control, ground forces and sequencing, load and release to pull off to a high degree of impact. Same principles to differing ends. In large part golf is taught hands back and in 2D, when it's more core out and 4D (time) or 5D (amplitude of power). Things are way better these days but golf lacks what martial arts or the teaching of music has established over centuries. That's an encompassing systematic way to teach the craft to the many in a clear manner with proven results.

    Lost me on that one.

    Yeah I understand, but I had to spend years watching karate, my kid is 2nd Black Belt. You start seeing how these guys break thick boards and such and you see that they use rotation, leverage and how they load up for impact with entire body. Really not unlike a high level golf swing. FWIW, best golfers I ever played with were teaching masters of Tae Kwon Doe. One of them could split fairways at 290 all day, both could shoot 75 on a bad day.

  • Ty_WebbTy_Webb New YorkMembers Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Although for some reason it's fashionable to believe that we're all equal, and that talent is overrated, I totally disagree. We are not all equal. Each of us is unique. Some people are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., and no amount of training and or instruction in the world is going to transform a **** into a diamond. Not everyone has the athletic and mental traits to be a scratch or better golfer, just as not every scratch golfer has what it takes to become a Tour player, no matter how much they want it and how hard they work.

    Now that's not to say you can't be the best version of yourself. And I'd agree that very few reach THEIR full potential in any endeavor, in golf or whatever the activity. To that end we're ultimately limited by our swing mechanics/technique, our willingness to put the time in practicing, our mental approach including optimism and confidence among other traits, and our willingness to persevere and tough it out.

    I totally agree. I watched an old vlog by Be Better Golf recently. He was playing with a former college tennis and basketball player or something. Apparently the guy had only been playing golf 8 months, was a single digit handicap and had made two aces already. It just comes easier to some people.

    I think there are skill sets that cross over. If someone played tennis or hockey or similar then I think golf will come more easily to you than someone who never played any sports.

    But I also know a guy who took the game up at about 12. When he was 16 his handicap was about 18 and he practiced and played religiously. He’s now I think about 41. His handicap is +3. I wouldn’t say he had natural talent for the game. What he did have was a work ethic.

    Undoubtedly there are physical traits that will make life easier, but I don’t think anyone fit and healthy can’t get to scratch if they start young enough and work hard at it.

    Yep i agree with you. Now take the raw natural athletic ability of this college athlete i mentioned, give it to your friend who is now a +3, and we are probably talking about a tour player.

    That's a stretch. I'd be willing to bet his friend has more natural talent than he's being credited with having. It's more likely that when he was younger he had misconceptions about the golf swing and was practicing/grooving the wrong things. Somewhere along the line he either got some good instruction, or discovered proper technique on his own.

    How do you know that the people you know who can't break 80 despite playing 150 rounds a year and practising don't have misconceptions about the golf swing or lack good instruction? I think a lot of people assign the word "talent" to what is really "working hard on the right things".

    I dont disagree entirely, but there are thousands who pursue it like it's a full-time job with top level instruction, discipline, and enthusiasm who will never even be low single digits, let alone scratch or Tour.

    I have never seen them. I've been around the game for a quite a while. Most of the people who can't break 80 show up to play a couple of times a week and just go play. They might warm up. The ones out there who take lessons show up and do their half an hour and then go home. The next time they're there when the pro says "how did your practice go?" they reply "oh, er, yeah..."

    If they actually applied themselves, they'd get better, but they don't.

    There are certain traits that help you get better. Hand-eye coordination for one. I'm sure there are people out there who just can't make contact with the ball consistently no matter how hard they try. Likely that's because they didn't play any sports when they were younger. Kids learn this stuff pretty quickly and easily. Adults don't. I know you're a decent player. How often do you get lessons? How often do you practice? Could you do more? If you did, do you think you'd improve? What sports did you play as a kid? I mean under age 10.

    For me, I played soccer, tennis and a little bit of cricket when I was under 10. I was never particularly good at soccer. I was okay at tennis and quite fancied myself as a player until I played a match against a kid who was actually good and I barely got a point off him. I started playing golf at 14 and I got a lot of lessons and I worked at it really hard. I got down to scratch when I was 23. Had a few years in the doldrums in my 30s. Got some lessons again a few years ago and am now playing probably the best golf of my life, despite a battle with chip/pitch yips. Lovely. I'd love to see how good I could get if I actually had real time to put into it. As it is I wind up playing in tournaments against kids who play every day. I play about 25 rounds a year give or take and I try to get to the range for about half an hour once a week. I hold my own, but I'm not likely to win them. I am certainly not a remarkable athlete. And I never stood out in any other sports. But I worked my butt off at golf and got to be reasonably decent. There's nothing about me that says most people couldn't do what I did. Now if you're 60 and a 18 handicap, sure, single figures isn't happening, but if you're young and healthy then hard work will get you there unless, like someone else mentioned, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

    ****! So what are we talking about? Single figures, low single figures, scratch, top Am, pro, or hall of fame pro?

    For some reason people seem to think that golf is different than other sports and that natural ability (talent) is irrelevant. All BS. Some people have the goods, most don't.

    Michael Jordan is arguably the best athlete in the world. He loves golf and has for years (since college). He's had extensive lessons from the very best instructors. He plays and practices daily at the best and most challenging courses, yet he's barely a 4 HC. If all it took were dedication, hours, and instruction he'd be on Tour, but guess what? He can't even beat me (and I'm a nobody...lol) who didn't start til almost 30.

    P.S. MJ, if you read this just please know I'll play you for whatever you like, as long as it's in units relative to each of our personal net worths. And sorry I didn't let you play thru at Mirasol...lol!

    I was talking about getting down to around scratch. I'm not going to suggest that anyone could be as good as Tiger if they put their minds to it by any stretch of the imagination.

    Basketball incidentally is an example of a sport that does require certain physical attributes that golf doesn't. Golf doesn't require that you be incredibly athletic or tall or strong or fast. Basketball you better be at least one of those things.

    Why isn't MJ better? What part of his game do you think holds him back? I don't know, but I can imagine that someone like him wouldn't want to practice his shortcomings, but rather would focus on what he's good at.

    Ping G400 LST 9° Diamana white 63x
    Ping G410 LST 3 wood Diamana Thump
    Taylor Made UDI 2 iron Diamana Tensei white 90TX
    Titleist 714CB 3, 4
    Titleist 714MB 5-PW
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 52 and 56 WS
    Scotty Cameron Newport 2
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Although for some reason it's fashionable to believe that we're all equal, and that talent is overrated, I totally disagree. We are not all equal. Each of us is unique. Some people are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., and no amount of training and or instruction in the world is going to transform a **** into a diamond. Not everyone has the athletic and mental traits to be a scratch or better golfer, just as not every scratch golfer has what it takes to become a Tour player, no matter how much they want it and how hard they work.

    Now that's not to say you can't be the best version of yourself. And I'd agree that very few reach THEIR full potential in any endeavor, in golf or whatever the activity. To that end we're ultimately limited by our swing mechanics/technique, our willingness to put the time in practicing, our mental approach including optimism and confidence among other traits, and our willingness to persevere and tough it out.

    I totally agree. I watched an old vlog by Be Better Golf recently. He was playing with a former college tennis and basketball player or something. Apparently the guy had only been playing golf 8 months, was a single digit handicap and had made two aces already. It just comes easier to some people.

    I think there are skill sets that cross over. If someone played tennis or hockey or similar then I think golf will come more easily to you than someone who never played any sports.

    But I also know a guy who took the game up at about 12. When he was 16 his handicap was about 18 and he practiced and played religiously. He’s now I think about 41. His handicap is +3. I wouldn’t say he had natural talent for the game. What he did have was a work ethic.

    Undoubtedly there are physical traits that will make life easier, but I don’t think anyone fit and healthy can’t get to scratch if they start young enough and work hard at it.

    Yep i agree with you. Now take the raw natural athletic ability of this college athlete i mentioned, give it to your friend who is now a +3, and we are probably talking about a tour player.

    That's a stretch. I'd be willing to bet his friend has more natural talent than he's being credited with having. It's more likely that when he was younger he had misconceptions about the golf swing and was practicing/grooving the wrong things. Somewhere along the line he either got some good instruction, or discovered proper technique on his own.

    How do you know that the people you know who can't break 80 despite playing 150 rounds a year and practising don't have misconceptions about the golf swing or lack good instruction? I think a lot of people assign the word "talent" to what is really "working hard on the right things".

    I dont disagree entirely, but there are thousands who pursue it like it's a full-time job with top level instruction, discipline, and enthusiasm who will never even be low single digits, let alone scratch or Tour.

    I have never seen them. I've been around the game for a quite a while. Most of the people who can't break 80 show up to play a couple of times a week and just go play. They might warm up. The ones out there who take lessons show up and do their half an hour and then go home. The next time they're there when the pro says "how did your practice go?" they reply "oh, er, yeah..."

    If they actually applied themselves, they'd get better, but they don't.

    There are certain traits that help you get better. Hand-eye coordination for one. I'm sure there are people out there who just can't make contact with the ball consistently no matter how hard they try. Likely that's because they didn't play any sports when they were younger. Kids learn this stuff pretty quickly and easily. Adults don't. I know you're a decent player. How often do you get lessons? How often do you practice? Could you do more? If you did, do you think you'd improve? What sports did you play as a kid? I mean under age 10.

    For me, I played soccer, tennis and a little bit of cricket when I was under 10. I was never particularly good at soccer. I was okay at tennis and quite fancied myself as a player until I played a match against a kid who was actually good and I barely got a point off him. I started playing golf at 14 and I got a lot of lessons and I worked at it really hard. I got down to scratch when I was 23. Had a few years in the doldrums in my 30s. Got some lessons again a few years ago and am now playing probably the best golf of my life, despite a battle with chip/pitch yips. Lovely. I'd love to see how good I could get if I actually had real time to put into it. As it is I wind up playing in tournaments against kids who play every day. I play about 25 rounds a year give or take and I try to get to the range for about half an hour once a week. I hold my own, but I'm not likely to win them. I am certainly not a remarkable athlete. And I never stood out in any other sports. But I worked my butt off at golf and got to be reasonably decent. There's nothing about me that says most people couldn't do what I did. Now if you're 60 and a 18 handicap, sure, single figures isn't happening, but if you're young and healthy then hard work will get you there unless, like someone else mentioned, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

    ****! So what are we talking about? Single figures, low single figures, scratch, top Am, pro, or hall of fame pro?

    For some reason people seem to think that golf is different than other sports and that natural ability (talent) is irrelevant. All BS. Some people have the goods, most don't.

    Michael Jordan is arguably the best athlete in the world. He loves golf and has for years (since college). He's had extensive lessons from the very best instructors. He plays and practices daily at the best and most challenging courses, yet he's barely a 4 HC. If all it took were dedication, hours, and instruction he'd be on Tour, but guess what? He can't even beat me (and I'm a nobody...lol) who didn't start til almost 30.

    P.S. MJ, if you read this just please know I'll play you for whatever you like, as long as it's in units relative to each of our personal net worths. And sorry I didn't let you play thru at Mirasol...lol!

    I was talking about getting down to around scratch. I'm not going to suggest that anyone could be as good as Tiger if they put their minds to it by any stretch of the imagination.

    Basketball incidentally is an example of a sport that does require certain physical attributes that golf doesn't. Golf doesn't require that you be incredibly athletic or tall or strong or fast. Basketball you better be at least one of those things.

    Why isn't MJ better? What part of his game do you think holds him back? I don't know, but I can imagine that someone like him wouldn't want to practice his shortcomings, but rather would focus on what he's good at.

    MJ wants to win, period. He'll work on whatever it takes.

    I think what you and most making this argument are missing is that in golf, the talent required isn't so obvious as how tall you are, how high you can jump, or how fast you can run.

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  • ShipwreckShipwreck Members Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I think once you’ve been playing for so long, the bad habits are just so deeply ingrained that it’s near impossible to overcome them without some serious time, money and effort.

    It’s like the age old saying “practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.”

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  • Ty_WebbTy_Webb New YorkMembers Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Although for some reason it's fashionable to believe that we're all equal, and that talent is overrated, I totally disagree. We are not all equal. Each of us is unique. Some people are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., and no amount of training and or instruction in the world is going to transform a **** into a diamond. Not everyone has the athletic and mental traits to be a scratch or better golfer, just as not every scratch golfer has what it takes to become a Tour player, no matter how much they want it and how hard they work.

    Now that's not to say you can't be the best version of yourself. And I'd agree that very few reach THEIR full potential in any endeavor, in golf or whatever the activity. To that end we're ultimately limited by our swing mechanics/technique, our willingness to put the time in practicing, our mental approach including optimism and confidence among other traits, and our willingness to persevere and tough it out.

    I totally agree. I watched an old vlog by Be Better Golf recently. He was playing with a former college tennis and basketball player or something. Apparently the guy had only been playing golf 8 months, was a single digit handicap and had made two aces already. It just comes easier to some people.

    I think there are skill sets that cross over. If someone played tennis or hockey or similar then I think golf will come more easily to you than someone who never played any sports.

    But I also know a guy who took the game up at about 12. When he was 16 his handicap was about 18 and he practiced and played religiously. He’s now I think about 41. His handicap is +3. I wouldn’t say he had natural talent for the game. What he did have was a work ethic.

    Undoubtedly there are physical traits that will make life easier, but I don’t think anyone fit and healthy can’t get to scratch if they start young enough and work hard at it.

    Yep i agree with you. Now take the raw natural athletic ability of this college athlete i mentioned, give it to your friend who is now a +3, and we are probably talking about a tour player.

    That's a stretch. I'd be willing to bet his friend has more natural talent than he's being credited with having. It's more likely that when he was younger he had misconceptions about the golf swing and was practicing/grooving the wrong things. Somewhere along the line he either got some good instruction, or discovered proper technique on his own.

    How do you know that the people you know who can't break 80 despite playing 150 rounds a year and practising don't have misconceptions about the golf swing or lack good instruction? I think a lot of people assign the word "talent" to what is really "working hard on the right things".

    I dont disagree entirely, but there are thousands who pursue it like it's a full-time job with top level instruction, discipline, and enthusiasm who will never even be low single digits, let alone scratch or Tour.

    I have never seen them. I've been around the game for a quite a while. Most of the people who can't break 80 show up to play a couple of times a week and just go play. They might warm up. The ones out there who take lessons show up and do their half an hour and then go home. The next time they're there when the pro says "how did your practice go?" they reply "oh, er, yeah..."

    If they actually applied themselves, they'd get better, but they don't.

    There are certain traits that help you get better. Hand-eye coordination for one. I'm sure there are people out there who just can't make contact with the ball consistently no matter how hard they try. Likely that's because they didn't play any sports when they were younger. Kids learn this stuff pretty quickly and easily. Adults don't. I know you're a decent player. How often do you get lessons? How often do you practice? Could you do more? If you did, do you think you'd improve? What sports did you play as a kid? I mean under age 10.

    For me, I played soccer, tennis and a little bit of cricket when I was under 10. I was never particularly good at soccer. I was okay at tennis and quite fancied myself as a player until I played a match against a kid who was actually good and I barely got a point off him. I started playing golf at 14 and I got a lot of lessons and I worked at it really hard. I got down to scratch when I was 23. Had a few years in the doldrums in my 30s. Got some lessons again a few years ago and am now playing probably the best golf of my life, despite a battle with chip/pitch yips. Lovely. I'd love to see how good I could get if I actually had real time to put into it. As it is I wind up playing in tournaments against kids who play every day. I play about 25 rounds a year give or take and I try to get to the range for about half an hour once a week. I hold my own, but I'm not likely to win them. I am certainly not a remarkable athlete. And I never stood out in any other sports. But I worked my butt off at golf and got to be reasonably decent. There's nothing about me that says most people couldn't do what I did. Now if you're 60 and a 18 handicap, sure, single figures isn't happening, but if you're young and healthy then hard work will get you there unless, like someone else mentioned, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

    ****! So what are we talking about? Single figures, low single figures, scratch, top Am, pro, or hall of fame pro?

    For some reason people seem to think that golf is different than other sports and that natural ability (talent) is irrelevant. All BS. Some people have the goods, most don't.

    Michael Jordan is arguably the best athlete in the world. He loves golf and has for years (since college). He's had extensive lessons from the very best instructors. He plays and practices daily at the best and most challenging courses, yet he's barely a 4 HC. If all it took were dedication, hours, and instruction he'd be on Tour, but guess what? He can't even beat me (and I'm a nobody...lol) who didn't start til almost 30.

    P.S. MJ, if you read this just please know I'll play you for whatever you like, as long as it's in units relative to each of our personal net worths. And sorry I didn't let you play thru at Mirasol...lol!

    I was talking about getting down to around scratch. I'm not going to suggest that anyone could be as good as Tiger if they put their minds to it by any stretch of the imagination.

    Basketball incidentally is an example of a sport that does require certain physical attributes that golf doesn't. Golf doesn't require that you be incredibly athletic or tall or strong or fast. Basketball you better be at least one of those things.

    Why isn't MJ better? What part of his game do you think holds him back? I don't know, but I can imagine that someone like him wouldn't want to practice his shortcomings, but rather would focus on what he's good at.

    MJ wants to win, period. He'll work on whatever it takes.

    I think what you and most making this argument are missing is that in golf, the talent required isn't so obvious as how tall you are, how high you can jump, or how fast you can run.

    Fair enough. If you asked him, do you think he would say he's at his limit?

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Although for some reason it's fashionable to believe that we're all equal, and that talent is overrated, I totally disagree. We are not all equal. Each of us is unique. Some people are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., and no amount of training and or instruction in the world is going to transform a **** into a diamond. Not everyone has the athletic and mental traits to be a scratch or better golfer, just as not every scratch golfer has what it takes to become a Tour player, no matter how much they want it and how hard they work.

    Now that's not to say you can't be the best version of yourself. And I'd agree that very few reach THEIR full potential in any endeavor, in golf or whatever the activity. To that end we're ultimately limited by our swing mechanics/technique, our willingness to put the time in practicing, our mental approach including optimism and confidence among other traits, and our willingness to persevere and tough it out.

    I totally agree. I watched an old vlog by Be Better Golf recently. He was playing with a former college tennis and basketball player or something. Apparently the guy had only been playing golf 8 months, was a single digit handicap and had made two aces already. It just comes easier to some people.

    I think there are skill sets that cross over. If someone played tennis or hockey or similar then I think golf will come more easily to you than someone who never played any sports.

    But I also know a guy who took the game up at about 12. When he was 16 his handicap was about 18 and he practiced and played religiously. He’s now I think about 41. His handicap is +3. I wouldn’t say he had natural talent for the game. What he did have was a work ethic.

    Undoubtedly there are physical traits that will make life easier, but I don’t think anyone fit and healthy can’t get to scratch if they start young enough and work hard at it.

    Yep i agree with you. Now take the raw natural athletic ability of this college athlete i mentioned, give it to your friend who is now a +3, and we are probably talking about a tour player.

    That's a stretch. I'd be willing to bet his friend has more natural talent than he's being credited with having. It's more likely that when he was younger he had misconceptions about the golf swing and was practicing/grooving the wrong things. Somewhere along the line he either got some good instruction, or discovered proper technique on his own.

    How do you know that the people you know who can't break 80 despite playing 150 rounds a year and practising don't have misconceptions about the golf swing or lack good instruction? I think a lot of people assign the word "talent" to what is really "working hard on the right things".

    I dont disagree entirely, but there are thousands who pursue it like it's a full-time job with top level instruction, discipline, and enthusiasm who will never even be low single digits, let alone scratch or Tour.

    I have never seen them. I've been around the game for a quite a while. Most of the people who can't break 80 show up to play a couple of times a week and just go play. They might warm up. The ones out there who take lessons show up and do their half an hour and then go home. The next time they're there when the pro says "how did your practice go?" they reply "oh, er, yeah..."

    If they actually applied themselves, they'd get better, but they don't.

    There are certain traits that help you get better. Hand-eye coordination for one. I'm sure there are people out there who just can't make contact with the ball consistently no matter how hard they try. Likely that's because they didn't play any sports when they were younger. Kids learn this stuff pretty quickly and easily. Adults don't. I know you're a decent player. How often do you get lessons? How often do you practice? Could you do more? If you did, do you think you'd improve? What sports did you play as a kid? I mean under age 10.

    For me, I played soccer, tennis and a little bit of cricket when I was under 10. I was never particularly good at soccer. I was okay at tennis and quite fancied myself as a player until I played a match against a kid who was actually good and I barely got a point off him. I started playing golf at 14 and I got a lot of lessons and I worked at it really hard. I got down to scratch when I was 23. Had a few years in the doldrums in my 30s. Got some lessons again a few years ago and am now playing probably the best golf of my life, despite a battle with chip/pitch yips. Lovely. I'd love to see how good I could get if I actually had real time to put into it. As it is I wind up playing in tournaments against kids who play every day. I play about 25 rounds a year give or take and I try to get to the range for about half an hour once a week. I hold my own, but I'm not likely to win them. I am certainly not a remarkable athlete. And I never stood out in any other sports. But I worked my butt off at golf and got to be reasonably decent. There's nothing about me that says most people couldn't do what I did. Now if you're 60 and a 18 handicap, sure, single figures isn't happening, but if you're young and healthy then hard work will get you there unless, like someone else mentioned, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

    Ty, I just read your post more thoroughly. Sounds like you and I have a lot in common...especially playing against the young guns...lol!

    To answer your questions, yes - I played everything as a kid, but not golf. Was kind of a jack-of-all-trades type of athlete. I would characterize myself as above average in overall athleticism, but not exceptional in anything in particular. I 100% agree that my experience playing other sports, particularly baseball, basketball, tennis, and racquetball aided my progress in golf, which I started much later in life.

    What I'm saying is that the innate athleticism that makes someone a good golfer is not as obvious as in other sports, but that doesn't mean it's not there!

    P.S. God, I wish I started playing this game as a toddler!

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @TMoakley1547 said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Although for some reason it's fashionable to believe that we're all equal, and that talent is overrated, I totally disagree. We are not all equal. Each of us is unique. Some people are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., and no amount of training and or instruction in the world is going to transform a **** into a diamond. Not everyone has the athletic and mental traits to be a scratch or better golfer, just as not every scratch golfer has what it takes to become a Tour player, no matter how much they want it and how hard they work.

    Now that's not to say you can't be the best version of yourself. And I'd agree that very few reach THEIR full potential in any endeavor, in golf or whatever the activity. To that end we're ultimately limited by our swing mechanics/technique, our willingness to put the time in practicing, our mental approach including optimism and confidence among other traits, and our willingness to persevere and tough it out.

    I totally agree. I watched an old vlog by Be Better Golf recently. He was playing with a former college tennis and basketball player or something. Apparently the guy had only been playing golf 8 months, was a single digit handicap and had made two aces already. It just comes easier to some people.

    I think there are skill sets that cross over. If someone played tennis or hockey or similar then I think golf will come more easily to you than someone who never played any sports.

    But I also know a guy who took the game up at about 12. When he was 16 his handicap was about 18 and he practiced and played religiously. He’s now I think about 41. His handicap is +3. I wouldn’t say he had natural talent for the game. What he did have was a work ethic.

    Undoubtedly there are physical traits that will make life easier, but I don’t think anyone fit and healthy can’t get to scratch if they start young enough and work hard at it.

    Yep i agree with you. Now take the raw natural athletic ability of this college athlete i mentioned, give it to your friend who is now a +3, and we are probably talking about a tour player.

    That's a stretch. I'd be willing to bet his friend has more natural talent than he's being credited with having. It's more likely that when he was younger he had misconceptions about the golf swing and was practicing/grooving the wrong things. Somewhere along the line he either got some good instruction, or discovered proper technique on his own.

    How do you know that the people you know who can't break 80 despite playing 150 rounds a year and practising don't have misconceptions about the golf swing or lack good instruction? I think a lot of people assign the word "talent" to what is really "working hard on the right things".

    I dont disagree entirely, but there are thousands who pursue it like it's a full-time job with top level instruction, discipline, and enthusiasm who will never even be low single digits, let alone scratch or Tour.

    I have never seen them. I've been around the game for a quite a while. Most of the people who can't break 80 show up to play a couple of times a week and just go play. They might warm up. The ones out there who take lessons show up and do their half an hour and then go home. The next time they're there when the pro says "how did your practice go?" they reply "oh, er, yeah..."

    If they actually applied themselves, they'd get better, but they don't.

    There are certain traits that help you get better. Hand-eye coordination for one. I'm sure there are people out there who just can't make contact with the ball consistently no matter how hard they try. Likely that's because they didn't play any sports when they were younger. Kids learn this stuff pretty quickly and easily. Adults don't. I know you're a decent player. How often do you get lessons? How often do you practice? Could you do more? If you did, do you think you'd improve? What sports did you play as a kid? I mean under age 10.

    For me, I played soccer, tennis and a little bit of cricket when I was under 10. I was never particularly good at soccer. I was okay at tennis and quite fancied myself as a player until I played a match against a kid who was actually good and I barely got a point off him. I started playing golf at 14 and I got a lot of lessons and I worked at it really hard. I got down to scratch when I was 23. Had a few years in the doldrums in my 30s. Got some lessons again a few years ago and am now playing probably the best golf of my life, despite a battle with chip/pitch yips. Lovely. I'd love to see how good I could get if I actually had real time to put into it. As it is I wind up playing in tournaments against kids who play every day. I play about 25 rounds a year give or take and I try to get to the range for about half an hour once a week. I hold my own, but I'm not likely to win them. I am certainly not a remarkable athlete. And I never stood out in any other sports. But I worked my butt off at golf and got to be reasonably decent. There's nothing about me that says most people couldn't do what I did. Now if you're 60 and a 18 handicap, sure, single figures isn't happening, but if you're young and healthy then hard work will get you there unless, like someone else mentioned, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

    ****! So what are we talking about? Single figures, low single figures, scratch, top Am, pro, or hall of fame pro?

    For some reason people seem to think that golf is different than other sports and that natural ability (talent) is irrelevant. All BS. Some people have the goods, most don't.

    Michael Jordan is arguably the best athlete in the world. He loves golf and has for years (since college). He's had extensive lessons from the very best instructors. He plays and practices daily at the best and most challenging courses, yet he's barely a 4 HC. If all it took were dedication, hours, and instruction he'd be on Tour, but guess what? He can't even beat me (and I'm a nobody...lol) who didn't start til almost 30.

    P.S. MJ, if you read this just please know I'll play you for whatever you like, as long as it's in units relative to each of our personal net worths. And sorry I didn't let you play thru at Mirasol...lol!

    I was talking about getting down to around scratch. I'm not going to suggest that anyone could be as good as Tiger if they put their minds to it by any stretch of the imagination.

    Basketball incidentally is an example of a sport that does require certain physical attributes that golf doesn't. Golf doesn't require that you be incredibly athletic or tall or strong or fast. Basketball you better be at least one of those things.

    Why isn't MJ better? What part of his game do you think holds him back? I don't know, but I can imagine that someone like him wouldn't want to practice his shortcomings, but rather would focus on what he's good at.

    MJ wants to win, period. He'll work on whatever it takes.

    I think what you and most making this argument are missing is that in golf, the talent required isn't so obvious as how tall you are, how high you can jump, or how fast you can run.

    Fair enough. If you asked him, do you think he would say he's at his limit?

    Naaahhh...he's the ultimate competitor. I guarantee he believes he can still improve. It's a competitive athlete's nature...and there's never been anyone like MJ

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  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 201 ✭✭✭

    MJ is almost 6'7. there is a lot going on in his swing. if hes had instruction they havent been able to get him to change some big flaws. i know he loves to play and gamble. id be skeptical that he grinds on the range to the level necessary to tighten up a swing for a man so tall.
    if you give an athletically coordinated person 20 hours a week year around to work on it and access to excellent instruction to guide him, they can get very close to scratch in a couple of years if they have the passion and mind. people of below average athletic coordination will never be scratch players on real golf courses. sorry. never seen it. they can get better, but scratch aint happening. you have to have some solid athletic traits to hit it good enough to play to that level.

  • NoTalentLeftyNoTalentLefty Members Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes It is limited by an individual’s talent. That does mean you can’t improve but most human beings will not be PGA or LPGA levels without that talent and hard work. Hard work with some talent or a small amount can get good results though.

    Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Grayback1973 said:
    I believe people plateau based on talent level in general.How can you think an instructor can work miracles in an untalented student? He can only work with what the students max potential is.I've formed my opinion from pure experience the last 20 years.I've gotten lessons with a handful of instructors,worked at what they gave me,blah blah.

    Somebody mentioned Schnee up there.Well,there is a guy that posts here named Heath who sees Dan and Gankas regularly.Him and Schnee are not exactly what you would call the poster children of athleticism.I mean to say they are by no means skinny and lean.But both of them have talent and their instructors have taken advantage of that talent and maximized their potentials.I believe Heath is a +3 now and Schnee is easily scratch and at one point like +4.

    You can't underestimate the natural talent aspect of learning.

    I'm just catching up on this thread. There are certainly some interesting points of view.

    As to the guys mentioned above, Heath and Chris (Schnee), both good dudes who have shared their swing journeys. Their improvement (especially Chris's) has been significant, but those numbers are not even close to accurate. Im pretty sure the lowest Chris has been is a zero index or perhaps one or two revisions where he was a plus .03 or something, never a plus 4. Heath was never a plus 3 either, I think he's really around a 5, and at his best maybe got down to a 3 (not plus). I'm not knocking either one of them as I've enjoyed following their swing journeys.

    There is a massive difference between a 0 index and a +4. Heck, theres a big difference between a guy whose index touches down to zero for a revision or two versus a a true tournament scratch player who can (and does) regularly shoot the course rating under tournament conditions away from his home course.

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  • aenematedaenemated Los Angeles, CAMembers Posts: 161 ✭✭✭

    I believe there's a level of excellence pretty much anyone - barring injury or disability - can achieve at ... well, anything. Then there's the "elite" level that requires a particular combination of innate physical and mental attributes.

    A good friend of mine is one of the busiest session musicians in Los Angeles. Back when I first met him; I jokingly said to him after he played a blistering set "Man, I wanna play like that when I grow up" and his response was "Play 8 hours a day, every day, for 10 years."

    He wasn't joking. He's in his late 50s now and STILL plays for hours a day, every single day. "Dude, you're so good - why practice?" "I'm so good BECAUSE I practice."

    I think most underestimate the real amount of time it requires to reach and sustain a level of excellence. It's easy to write off as "Well, he's just talented" as opposed to admitting "Well, he just works at it for hours upon hours every single day." Admitting that means admitting our own lack of work ethic and we don't like to do that, do we? It's easier to reconcile our shortcomings against others by attributing them to some intangible - when that's simply not the case.

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  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @aenemated said:
    I believe there's a level of excellence pretty much anyone - barring injury or disability - can achieve at ... well, anything. Then there's the "elite" level that requires a particular combination of innate physical and mental attributes.

    A good friend of mine is one of the busiest session musicians in Los Angeles. Back when I first met him; I jokingly said to him after he played a blistering set "Man, I wanna play like that when I grow up" and his response was "Play 8 hours a day, every day, for 10 years."

    He wasn't joking. He's in his late 50s now and STILL plays for hours a day, every single day. "Dude, you're so good - why practice?" "I'm so good BECAUSE I practice."

    I think most underestimate the real amount of time it requires to reach and sustain a level of excellence. It's easy to write off as "Well, he's just talented" as opposed to admitting "Well, he just works at it for hours upon hours every single day." Admitting that means admitting our own lack of work ethic and we don't like to do that, do we? It's easier to reconcile our shortcomings against others by attributing them to some intangible - when that's simply not the case.

    They say it takes 10000 hours at a skill to achieve mastery. For perspective, that's 5 yrs 8hrs a day with weekends and two weeks off. And golf has more than one skill to master...

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,609 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @elthrill said:
    MJ is almost 6'7. there is a lot going on in his swing. if hes had instruction they havent been able to get him to change some big flaws. i know he loves to play and gamble. id be skeptical that he grinds on the range to the level necessary to tighten up a swing for a man so tall.
    if you give an athletically coordinated person 20 hours a week year around to work on it and access to excellent instruction to guide him, they can get very close to scratch in a couple of years if they have the passion and mind. people of below average athletic coordination will never be scratch players on real golf courses. sorry. never seen it. they can get better, but scratch aint happening. you have to have some solid athletic traits to hit it good enough to play to that level.

    This^^^ truth.

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @elthrill said:
    MJ is almost 6'7. there is a lot going on in his swing. if hes had instruction they havent been able to get him to change some big flaws. i know he loves to play and gamble. id be skeptical that he grinds on the range to the level necessary to tighten up a swing for a man so tall.
    if you give an athletically coordinated person 20 hours a week year around to work on it and access to excellent instruction to guide him, they can get very close to scratch in a couple of years if they have the passion and mind. people of below average athletic coordination will never be scratch players on real golf courses. sorry. never seen it. they can get better, but scratch aint happening. you have to have some solid athletic traits to hit it good enough to play to that level.

    This^^^ truth.

    Agree. And MJ is one of the best athletes of all time and still ain't there, height aside. At one point many years ago he hinted about attempting professional golf. That proved to be more of a pipe dream than his attempts at pro baseball.

    For some reason a lot of people seem to think that mastering golf is somehow just a matter of putting the time in. Hogwash! Perhaps it's because there are plenty of golf pros who are not physically impressive specimens that look llike regular guys? Maybe its because at any given moment,most of us can hit an incredible single shot just like a pro, or string together a few good holes, or maybe a nine? It's interesting, as hard as golf is for most people, it still doesnt get much respect as an extremely challenging athletic endeavor. 10,000 hours (random number anyway, and I've read and enjoyed Gladwell) is no guarantee of "mastery" without the requisite innate athletic and mental traits.

    USGA Index: ~1

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  • DevilDogDevilDog Members Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Everyone has a talent limit. Everyone, including Tour pros. We can work hard and improve all we can but we will all reach a limit of our talent level.

  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,837 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @ScottJN said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @SNIPERBBB said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @gioguy21 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @gioguy21 said:

    @Ty_Webb said:

    @gioguy21 said:

    @iteachgolf said:

    @gioguy21 said:
    we have 2 dans in here who say 'everyone has a limit' yet, 'no one actually reaches it' --- so, how do you consider that a limit then...? headscratcher

    I said most never reach it. Not no one. If your going to be a smartass, be accurate

    whoa, watch your mouth bud, i wasn't being a smartass. Btw, the OTHER Dan is the one I quoted.

    instead of having thin skin - consider the question i was asking -- how do you consider it a limit if the person doesn't have the drive or motivation to get there?

    I would think the point was that if all you need to do is change your attitude to get better then it's not really a limit. Most people don't reach their limits in anything. You have to work really really hard to reach your limit. If it helps, think of it as more of an upper bound. Otherwise, under how you're thinking about it, everyone is currently at their limit (they're as good as they can be given how hard they've worked to get to where they are). The original question was if you really dedicate yourself to it how good can you get (not how good will you get).

    i understand that view - i guess what i was gettin at is that a 'limit' is a rather stern definition. a physical handicap can be limiting, a mindset can be limiting, a persons motivation can be limiting...but based on what was said by others - those things can be broken...

    when caddying - there is a need to focus on positive - and i think in this case, i like to view 'is there a limit to how good someone can get'...as no, there isn't a limit -- there are plateaus and levels of success available to you that, with effort, can be achieved. now, the level of effort, motivation, time etc may be long or short depending on your skill, physical ability, aptitude for learning (physically, mentality, etc), financial status, or age.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think it's necessarily negative to talk about a limit. I think we all have one. Mine for example is somewhere between my current level and peak Tiger. Likely quite a bit closer to the former than the latter. I know that I'm never going to be able to play the game as well as he did in 2000. I think it's more depressing to think that I could, but I just haven't got there. Knowing that I can't lets me focus on more realistic goals.

    I do think it's dangerous to set your goals too high. If you expect too much, then it can be demoralizing when things don't pan out. I also think it's a bad idea to assume your limit is too low though. That can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, assuming that you don't reassess, but that would be reassessing goals, not a view as to your limit.

    Like for me, my lofty goals I have two. One is to win the US Mid-Am. The other is to qualify for a major championship. If I do that it would be nice not to finish DFL :) I doubt I'll ever manage either, but I think it's possible to achieve both. I do need to enter them first though...

    dip a toe man - the water is warm!

    at a minimum sign up for the USGA 4 ball!

    My issue is I have two small kids and I already disappear for a week for a golf tournament in April. If I qualify for the Mid-Am, that would mean spending another week away and would get me in big trouble. That's why I try to qualify for these things when they're close by. Not often enough...

    Home School atnd take the kids with you.

    a 4 year old caddie could be worth 2 strokes a side! 2 year old can bring a rake and rake the bunkers for me.

    I’m sure they’d love to walk off your yardages and line up putts

    Two year old pacing off the chip. "Dad! I counted three twenty four hundred steps!" "Gee thanks son".

    WITB
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    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!

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