Wedges: "use the bounce" vs "don't expose the leading edge"

This is either a technique question, terminology issue, or both.

I hear it preached to "use the bounce", which to me means hit a chip fat and let the club glide under the ball (not dig into the ground, but glide/bounce).

I also hear it preached to "not expose the leading edge" (looking at you Phil Mickelson!). To me, this means come in steep with the edge of the wedge blade back so you hit the ball first.

It seems these two things are mutually exclusive, because if I try to bounce the club, by definition I'm hitting the ground with the sole of the wedge and therefore the leading edge is exoosed.......so I assume I'm misunderstanding something. Any clarity would help....trying to decide on a new job wedge (m, d, or k grind) and am a bit confused on all this.

You hit the ball first when using the bounce. And have shaft lean. You just give yourself a better margin of error since hitting a bit behind the ball can still result in a decent shot versus laying the sod over it. Not exposing the leading edge is using the bounce.

Bit of wind in the video.

Using wedge with 14* bounce off concrete.

Sounds right to me. Exposing the leading edge to the turf is bypassing the built-in bounce which results in inconsistent contact and poor control - typically. All wedges have bounce that is designed to help with turf interaction. So when they say to use the bounce they are saying to basically let the club do the work. If the bounce is a good fit for your wedge game and conditions then you shouldn't even think about it and you should just try for solid contact and fundamentals. The only time you need to think about exposing the leading edge (typically steep ball first contact) is when the conditions are either super firm or super soft/wet. If you have a low bounce wedge and its a muddy day you will be forced to use the leading edge and pray for ball first contact - otherwise, that club is digging straight down aka chunk. Then, if you have a high bounce wedge and its firm you also want to use the leading edge and pray for ball first contact - otherwise, that club is gonna bounce straight off that turf and catch the middle of the ball aka skull. I play Vokeys with conventional grinds and moderate bounce - basically, so I can manage in all conditions. In golfdigest online there is an article about a wedge fitting with Bob Vokey. Its a good read. He says that the best grind and bounce of the wedge combo typically picks the golfer and they only find through trial and error. Meaning some of us sweep and some of us are steep, etc. And that is also why people typically stick with the same wedges even after they are beaten to death. For me, every year I switch away from the Vokeys to something cool looking and they never feel right. I ALWAYS go back to the Vokeys.

Read this thread. https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/926403/the-wizard-short-game-technique-videos-merged/p1

> @glk said:

> You hit the ball first when using the bounce. And have shaft lean. You just give yourself a better margin of error since hitting a bit behind the ball can still result in a decent shot versus laying the sod over it. Not exposing the leading edge is using the bounce.

> Bit of wind in the video.

> Using wedge with 14* bounce off concrete.

Call me crazy, but when he demonstrates the swing at the end of the first video, it doesn’t look too dissimilar from a hinge & hold type swing.

No hinge and hold, you crazy, lol.

Same technique just different shots.

I used to do the Phil way. Now I've seen the light and get much better results. I'm no longer afraid to hit through the ball in case I skull it across the green. Using the bounce doesn't mean you're exposing the leading edge if it just goes under the ball. For Phil's way I feel like I'm exposing the leading edge more. To each their own, but don't expose the edge way you better not practice on mats. It'll be a complete s**t storm on the course because you'll have learned to hit it fat so you don't skull it. Then you are just chunking it on the course, and then lose all confidence and do all kinds of crazy stuff like post 8's on your score card. Unless you have hand eye coordination like Phil. Then you can do whatever you want.

> @Golfjack said:

> I used to do the Phil way. Now I've seen the light and get much better results. I'm no longer afraid to hit through the ball in case I skull it across the green. Using the bounce doesn't mean you're exposing the leading edge if it just goes under the ball. For Phil's way I feel like I'm exposing the leading edge more. To each their own, but don't expose the edge way you better not practice on mats. It'll be a complete s**t storm on the course because you'll have learned to hit it fat so you don't skull it. Then you are just chunking it on the course, and then lose all confidence and do all kinds of crazy stuff like post 8's on your score card. Unless you have hand eye coordination like Phil. Then you can do whatever you want.

Thanks for the response.

What is wrong with Phil's way, or what is better/different about your method?

Hey OP just my thoughts

Use the bounce sometimes gets confusing, as you stated the first thought was hitting fat. My opinion would be that is a misunderstanding already.

Im going to go in reverse, leading edge then bounce.

OK so to assume the very first issue. if the leading edge is the first turf interaction the likely hood is that the club would then "dig" and your shot will likely not be as intended right? So exposing the leading edge or having the leading edge hit the ground first, could be detrimental.

Second to leading edge most times if we setup with a wedge with the leading edge flat or flush to the ground (specific to wedges not regular irons) because of the actual bounce of a wedge, we would have to lean the shaft a little forward or play the ball back in our stance to get the leading edge flush to the ground. THIS already if we as a player do NOT have control of our "low" point will be detrimental. As forward shaft lean and ball back usually turns into a steep swing. Does this make sense?

LOW point in regards to leading edge, IF we as a player have control OF our low point then the leading edge means nothing, think of a putter, it has a leading edge, yet because we sweep we dont dig, Imagine if you took your high bounce SW (14* of bounce) forward shaft lean, ball back in your stance, yet you took a "sweeping motion" never really getting steep,the ball would nicely roll up the face of the club, no worry about digging and the leading edge right?

What does the above mean? GETTING control of your LOW POINT in your wedge shots PERIOD. OK now moving on to bounce.

Due to the shorter length of wedges, most players have a natural negative AoA with wedges, most get steep angle of attack, By doing so this again gets the leading edge into play. BUT now, instead of having the leading edge hit, you use the bounce to "control" the low point of the swing. the leading edge wont dig, BUT the Bounce will mitigate the club going further into the ground due to the spread of mass. Thus improving your chance to hit a better shot. BOUNCE normally helps in scenarios where the ground is conducive to it. So obviously using high bounce on a cart path, or Rock hard sand might not be optimal its possible just not optimal.

BUT again I am back to the point, if you as a player have the ability to control your low point, you dont have to worry about bounce as you can pick balls clean out of a fluffy sand or soft conditions around the green. BUT you need to learn what you feel more comfortable with. Do you want to pick all the balls clean, or do you want to feel a little turf interaction?

Also the usage of each shots then applies different shot categories, low spin, high spin, low shot high shot etc etc.

SO generically speaking..... TL : DR

1) Bounce for most people is a portion of the club to help improve your chance of an intended shot

2) Leading edge is a portion of a club that exist with ALL clubs, but affects most wedges due to AoA and LACK of low point control

3) What method (Generically) is easier to do, to control your low point in your wedge, Sweeping putting motion, Or wist break and hand manipulation and longer swing?

Neither Bounce or Leading edge is bad..... CONTROLLING YOUR LOW POINT is likely the most beneficial in my humble opinion.

Scenario Thoughts-

Tight lies around the green. High bounce or low bounce? Well depends.

LW 60* Low Bounce 8*

vs

LW 60* high bounce 14*

you can place the Low bounce 60 behind the ball the leading edge will be closer to the ground and you can basically sweep the ball clean, you then use the actual loft of 60* to get the ball to go higher in hopes to slow the ball down.

you can play the HIGH bounce 60, but the leading edge will be sitting higher visually almost feeling like you might skull the ball, so what do you do? you get some forward shaft lean or play the ball back in your stance. BUT what happens you now deloft the 60 into a 56* SW with lower bounce right. DO you still try to sweep or now because of the shaft lean and the ball back you get steep... DOUBLE negative hence the dig/chunk/fat. (I see this all the time)

The high bounce 60* is a little tricky on tight lies, but knowing what you did by de-lofting just means you need to control your AoA to get a cleaner strike.

Fluffy Lie or in fluffy sand

LW 60* Low Bounce 8*

vs

LW 60* high bounce 14*

Low bounce 60 again setup, leading edge is closer to the ground. You swing and due to the fluffy lie, or soft sand you go right under the ball or catch the ball on the upper portion of the wedge... not optimal right?

High bounce 60, leading edge sitting up, you swing normally, the leading edge goes down below, but the bounce keeps the club from digging further than the low bounce, the contact is likely more center. With that you can use the true loft and assume the trajectory and intent.

NOW what if we "opened" the 60 to increase bounce we can do that, JUST remember you now are increasing loft so going from a 60* wedge to a 65 or even 70* wedge with increase bounce from say 8* to now 15*.

Its all numbers but AGAIN going back to the single point reality.

Control the low point in a wedge shot thats it! GL OP...

Sorry ranted and soap boxed but hope it add a little info to understand a little better!

I can't be sure but I think the OP may be misunderstanding what is meant by (not) exposing the leading edge. The reference, or point of view, is the ground, not the golfer's eyes, or the ball. The recommendation is to expose the bounce sole to the interaction with the ground, and to not expose the leading edge to the interaction with the ground.

All I know is that when I started using Monte’s Use the Boubce technique my chipping got 25x better. Gives a nice margin for error. And I can’t practice enough to hit those tight spinning shots the pros can do.

This is what your wedge looks like when you use the bounce. I feel like the worn area of the wedge brushes the turf under the ball. Sometimes you might hit it a bit fat and brush the ground a bit early, but the club will glide along the ground. The leading edge and heel will dig.

The leading edge can be used if you play the ball off the back foot, hands forward, you catch the ball first, I almost feel like I am hitting the top of the ball and pinching it against the ground. Or cutting through thicker grass. If you look closely at the wedge above you will see minor wear on the leading edge from hitting shots like this.

One of the biggest things to remember when using the bounce is you cannot, and I mean CANNOT stall or let the hands outrace the club. As shown in Dans videos (and montes if you have them) it’s one fluid motion where your body, arms, club etc continue moving.

Once you learn the bounce method, it’s hard to go to anything else. I tried the hinge and hold method for a long time and had relatively good success with it, but when it was off it was bad bad bad. We have to remember that Phil practices his short game more than most of us are at work, so his technique is pretty much flawless.

If you have that sort of time, determination and ability to do such, you can probably develop a deft chipping game like Phil. The bounce method though is as close to foolproof as you can get and doesn’t require hours upon hours of practice to make use of it.

For the record, Phil can use the bounce better than anybody when he wants to, which is more often than you’d think.

> @PowderedToastMan said:

> For the record, Phil can use the bounce better than anybody when he wants to, which is more often than you’d think.

Exactly. Do as he does, not as he says.

> @Fade said:

> I can't be sure but I think the OP may be misunderstanding what is meant by (not) exposing the leading edge. The reference, or point of view, is the ground, not the golfer's eyes, or the ball. The recommendation is to expose the bounce sole to the interaction with the ground, and to not expose the leading edge to the interaction with the ground.

Wait, this is 100% it. All this time I thought "don't expose the leading edge" meant exposing it to the BALL, i.e. delivering the edge into the ball first and blading/knifing it.... Which to do that you need to have heavy shaft lean which prevents you from using the bounce.

> @DaveGoodrich said:

> > @PowderedToastMan said:

> > For the record, Phil can use the bounce better than anybody when he wants to, which is more often than you’d think.

>

> Exactly. Do as he does, not as he says.

He very explicitly states in his video to use the bounce and get the club aggressively in the turf. He also prefers to play off his front foot on stock chips which encourages the bounce.

I think people tend to really misunderstand what Phil’s chipping philosophy is.

I have a blunt leading edge and a sharp leading edge LW. It doesn't matter whether my wedge has 12* of bounce or 2*, the bounce is used to protect from digging too deep. Like Phil M., I typically use a wide sole LW but with more of a sharp leading edge with low bounce. The wide sole behaves effectively as if it has more bounce when opening the face, and the sharper leading edge allows the leading edge to get closer under the ball to create a more vertical flop shot with lots of ball spin. Steep or shallow attack angle and how close you get to the ball has more to do with shot intent and conditions. Steep AoA and bad impact mean a chunk shot, and shallow AoA means a skulled shot.

Just don't let anyone tell you the only answer to effective wedge game is using a high bounce wedge. High or low bounce is a personal choice and both require practice. Though I can hit shots from tight lies using 12-14* of bounce typically high bounce wedges have blunt leading edges. It's what you're comfortable with. Again, I favor low bounce but that's because I discovered my short game opening and closing a 60* LW with a narrow sole sharp leading edge and 2* of bounce.

> @Fade said:

> I can't be sure but I think the OP may be misunderstanding what is meant by (not) exposing the leading edge. The reference, or point of view, is the ground, not the golfer's eyes, or the ball. The recommendation is to expose the bounce sole to the interaction with the ground, and to not expose the leading edge to the interaction with the ground.

This makes alot of sense. Thanks for this.

> @mn44 said:

> > @Fade said:

> > I can't be sure but I think the OP may be misunderstanding what is meant by (not) exposing the leading edge. The reference, or point of view, is the ground, not the golfer's eyes, or the ball. The recommendation is to expose the bounce sole to the interaction with the ground, and to not expose the leading edge to the interaction with the ground.

>

> Wait, this is 100% it. All this time I thought "don't expose the leading edge" meant exposing it to the BALL, i.e. delivering the edge into the ball first and blading/knifing it.... Which to do that you need to have heavy shaft lean which prevents you from using the bounce.

Well there you go, Even I misunderstood your misunderstanding LOL! This is a tough one sometimes, so you have to talk it out, so everyone is on the same page! @Fade good catch there!

Ok so now with this clarity.....what will be your next "move" If you understand now why you dont expose the leading edge to the BALL. May I ask why you were doing it prior to if you were "blading" it to begin with?

Did you do it unconsciously because you thought using the bounce correctly meant your leading edge was off the ground? Is, thats how you hit it?


If I may I make an assumption that the leading per the above pictures (the high bounce) if the wedge was place center stance with no shaft lean) the high bounce leading edge would likely be at the 1/5th mark of a ball, so it would essentially blade the ball if you took a shallow or sweeping swing.

If you took a steeper or forward shaft lean then you would negate the bounce per se, leading edge should be below the ball now but digging could occur if your AoA is steep, this then requires a pretty decent hand eye coordination to always strike a wedge shot center of your club (rather than a more shallow swing)

Side note- can I throw in a little trick I thought of when explaining bounce to a co-worker?, I put a penny on the ground right behind the ball, I then told my co-worker, when you swing your wedge, trick to "CLICK" the penny with the back of the wedge (or the fat part of the sole). This was at the office with no ball so solid ground no give but the idea was to feel the impact with the bounce not the leading edge)

They is how they felt the bounce of the club and how it (bounces) By them doing this they would not intentionally come in steep with the leading edge, they would still have a negative AoA but because now they werent forcing shaft lean the club would go down hit the penny with the back of the club and have a more shallow strike at the ball. It was a crude method but it help them understand what it was like using the bounce. (doesnt work for everyone but that was a way I came up with to explain it).

Now you can use this method with the ball in any position forward of center or back you place the penny where it would be behind the ball, "click" with the back bounce/sole of the wedge (NOT the leading edge) and now you used the bounce.

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @mn44 said:

> > > @Fade said:

> > > I can't be sure but I think the OP may be misunderstanding what is meant by (not) exposing the leading edge. The reference, or point of view, is the ground, not the golfer's eyes, or the ball. The recommendation is to expose the bounce sole to the interaction with the ground, and to not expose the leading edge to the interaction with the ground.

> >

> > Wait, this is 100% it. All this time I thought "don't expose the leading edge" meant exposing it to the BALL, i.e. delivering the edge into the ball first and blading/knifing it.... Which to do that you need to have heavy shaft lean which prevents you from using the bounce.

>

> Well there you go, Even I misunderstood your misunderstanding LOL! This is a tough one sometimes, so you have to talk it out, so everyone is on the same page! @Fade good catch there!

>

> Ok so now with this clarity.....what will be your next "move" If you understand now why you dont expose the leading edge to the BALL. May I ask why you were doing it prior to if you were "blading" it to begin with?

>

> Did you do it unconsciously because you thought using the bounce correctly meant your leading edge was off the ground? Is, thats how you hit it?

> 

>

> If I may I make an assumption that the leading per the above pictures (the high bounce) if the wedge was place center stance with no shaft lean) the high bounce leading edge would likely be at the 1/5th mark of a ball, so it would essentially blade the ball if you took a shallow or sweeping swing.

>

> If you took a steeper or forward shaft lean then you would negate the bounce per se, leading edge should be below the ball now but digging could occur if your AoA is steep, this then requires a pretty decent hand eye coordination to always strike a wedge shot center of your club (rather than a more shallow swing)

>

> Side note- can I throw in a little trick I thought of when explaining bounce to a co-worker?, I put a penny on the ground right behind the ball, I then told my co-worker, when you swing your wedge, trick to "CLICK" the penny with the back of the wedge (or the fat part of the sole). This was at the office with no ball so solid ground no give but the idea was to feel the impact with the bounce not the leading edge)

> They is how they felt the bounce of the club and how it (bounces) By them doing this they would not intentionally come in steep with the leading edge, they would still have a negative AoA but because now they werent forcing shaft lean the club would go down hit the penny with the back of the club and have a more shallow strike at the ball. It was a crude method but it help them understand what it was like using the bounce. (doesnt work for everyone but that was a way I came up with to explain it).

>

> Now you can use this method with the ball in any position forward of center or back you place the penny where it would be behind the ball, "click" with the back bounce/sole of the wedge (NOT the leading edge) and now you used the bounce.

>

>

>

>

>

I don't really have a next move. I manipulate the face a lot and don't care too much about technique, I have always just relied on feel. I have been watching Phil's videos on IG which got me thinking, plus I was getting a new 60* so was trying to figure out what to go with.

Also, to the other poster who talked about Phil, he admits he actually plays 80%+ of his chips off his back foot. "Back foot restore" he calls it.

I've always been more successful with a slightly downward approach. It isn't all that hard, in my view, so long as you don't get stupid with it trying to dig out more spin than needed. Tried the other way often enough, but didn't work out. So long as you catch the small ball first, you should be fine.

> @mn44 said:

> I don't really have a next move. I manipulate the face a lot and don't care too much about technique, I have always just relied on feel. I have been watching Phil's videos on IG which got me thinking, plus I was getting a new 60* so was trying to figure out what to go with.

>

> Also, to the other poster who talked about Phil, he admits he actually plays 80%+ of his chips off his back foot. "Back foot restore" he calls it.

>

>

Sounds good! just a personal take, used to be super handsy. But I have really learned to eliminate it as much as possible.

chipping is a high feel type shot, so if I introduce too much movement especially under stress I am prone to errors.

I hit a lot more "shallow AoA" and dead handed chips and this has taken me to another level.

I dont lack spin even with a dead handed chip, BUT I accelerate and almost pull a little more left to feel like I am wiping the ball to get the spin if I need it, But most tracks I play the greens are 8-10 stimp, so need to spin the ball like crazy isnt a must.

Any ways thanks for listing to me hope it help even just a little if not sorry for add some much useless soap boxing LOL!

> @MadGolfer76 said:

> I've always been more successful with a slightly downward approach. It isn't all that hard, in my view, so long as you don't get stupid with it trying to dig out more spin than needed. Tried the other way often enough, but didn't work out. So long as you catch the small ball first, you should be fine.

This is very true, and it should be emphasized that ball first with any short game technique is the key to consistency.

I played great golf for years digging trenches with my wedges. I became more consistent when I committed to a shallower path though. Took a lot of work but it was definitely worth it, that plus finding the right grind on my lob wedge.

> @PowderedToastMan said:

> > @MadGolfer76 said:

> > I've always been more successful with a slightly downward approach. It isn't all that hard, in my view, so long as you don't get stupid with it trying to dig out more spin than needed. Tried the other way often enough, but didn't work out. So long as you catch the small ball first, you should be fine.

>

> This is very true, and it should be emphasized that ball first with any short game technique is the key to consistency.

>

> I played great golf for years digging trenches with my wedges. I became more consistent when I committed to a shallower path though. Took a lot of work but it was definitely worth it, that plus finding the right grind on my lob wedge.

>

I get why people why people want to scoot it. You can hit three inches behind the ball and kind of get away with it if you keep the club moving. With a downward approach, if you lose intensity, you're boned. I don't take up pelts, but I remain slightly (to moderately) down through the ball.

I used to take pelts, though...it was fun!

> @PowderedToastMan said:

> > @MadGolfer76 said:

> > I've always been more successful with a slightly downward approach. It isn't all that hard, in my view, so long as you don't get stupid with it trying to dig out more spin than needed. Tried the other way often enough, but didn't work out. So long as you catch the small ball first, you should be fine.

>

> This is very true, and it should be emphasized that ball first with any short game technique is the key to consistency.

>

> I played great golf for years digging trenches with my wedges. I became more consistent when I committed to a shallower path though. Took a lot of work but it was definitely worth it, that plus finding the right grind on my lob wedge.

>

I hate to be that guy but, once I learned to really shallow the AoA on chips shots and not "dig trenches" I find almost ALL my shots predicable now that I hit it clean.

I tend to pick Sand shots cleaner as well i dont do the 2 inches behind the ball and swing hard. Using the bounce maintaining my low point and even playing most shots forward of stance so I am hitting the ball as shallow as I often can.

I mean before, it was major shaft lean, ball on my back foot and stabbing at it hoping it would spin (of course negating spin loft) so it really didnt do anything other than mess up the fringe send vibration up my arm and another crappy missed chip LOL...

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @PowderedToastMan said:

> > > @MadGolfer76 said:

> > > I've always been more successful with a slightly downward approach. It isn't all that hard, in my view, so long as you don't get stupid with it trying to dig out more spin than needed. Tried the other way often enough, but didn't work out. So long as you catch the small ball first, you should be fine.

> >

> > This is very true, and it should be emphasized that ball first with any short game technique is the key to consistency.

> >

> > I played great golf for years digging trenches with my wedges. I became more consistent when I committed to a shallower path though. Took a lot of work but it was definitely worth it, that plus finding the right grind on my lob wedge.

> >

>

> I hate to be that guy but, once I learned to really shallow the AoA on chips shots and not "dig trenches" I find almost ALL my shots predicable now that I hit it clean.

>

> I tend to pick Sand shots cleaner as well i dont do the 2 inches behind the ball and swing hard. Using the bounce maintaining my low point and even playing most shots forward of stance so I am hitting the ball as shallow as I often can.

>

> I mean before, it was major shaft lean, ball on my back foot and stabbing at it hoping it would spin (of course negating spin loft) so it really didnt do anything other than mess up the fringe send vibration up my arm and another crappy missed chip LOL...

You aren't being "that guy," you've just found something that works for you. There are degrees of everything. Extreme lean and extreme down aren't good no matter how you look at it.