Ping & Other Manufacturers Lie Angles

RH82RH82 Members Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
edited Aug 13, 2019 2:13pm in WRX Club Techs #1

As a junior and into my 20's I always had Ping irons that were custom fit by a fitter as white dot and as flat as green dot but still upright based on my height which is 6'5". Irons have also always been +1" over standard. In this setup Ping irons looked like they always were toe up to my eye but had good flight patterns. In my late 20's and in my 30's I never had a fitter in my area so I ended up I trying neutral lie angles but still at +1" over standard and the sole seems to sit nice and flat when grounded. I always felt as if my irons should be more upright based on what I read but to my eye they don't look right in this position. My question is why would every Ping fitter have my irons in such an upright lie angle and is the Ping lie angle chart any different from other manufacturers?

TBD
Titleist 917 F2 (16.5*)
Callaway Apex (20*)
Srixon Z785 (4-PW)
Cleveland RTX-4 (50*/56*/60*)
Odyssey Tank #7

Comments

  • nfmotonfmoto Members Posts: 226 ✭✭✭

    Generally, you want the toe to be up a bit. We have to account for shaft droop, and most good players return their hands higher at impact than at address.

    Do Howard's Marker Test to dial it in: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1355102/open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,925 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Just based on comments people make here after getting Ping fittings, along with the number of often seriously upright used sets you see on eBay, it has always seemed to me that follow the "Ping fitting" method tends to result in an awful lot of golfers buying irons 2-3 degrees more upright than expected.

    A friend of mine had a Ping fitting and as a result (briefly) used a set of like 2.25 or 3.0 degree upright irons even though he is like 5'5" tall with not especially short arms or anything like that. Didn't work for him at all so he got rid of them and went for a more conventional fitting that put him in flatter lie angles.

    I think it is a philosophical thing about the Ping way of "helping" golfers. With SGI club in particular Ping like to use very low swingweights to encourage what they call "squaring the clubface" but what it probably more like flipping. And similarly with the upright lie angles they are trying to pull out all the stops to get that ball moving left or at least moving less right. They know that a lot of hackers stand up through impact and let their hands move higher and away from their body on the downswing. So the generic Ping fitting seems biased toward clubs that suit those tendencies.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • nova6868nova6868 Members Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 13, 2019 4:00pm #4

    I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with 3 up and D0 swingweight if you're just trying to fit a 25-cap who really doesn't practice or get better. They just want to have fun and the clubs might help. Those specs will help them reduce their slice.

    Now if you're looking at a better player who works on their swing, that's a different story. Probably should fit them into roughly "appropriate" specs and let them continue working on their swing. That way when they improve they don't have clubs that are working against them.

    In terms of how irons should look at address, they should look very slightly toe up. Above poster is right regarding shaft droop.

  • greenwavegolfergreenwavegolfer Members Posts: 153 ✭✭✭

    The golf swing is a dynamic motion and the club at address is static. In the grand scheme of things whether the club sits neutral, upright or toe-down at address is irrelevant. It's what happens during the swing and at impact (in 3 dimensions, not just the single-axis dynamic lie at impact) that matters. You shouldn't really fit solely off lie-boards and you should definitely not fit off lie angles at address. It should always be based on ball flight and launch in conjunction with the measured dynamic lie. You said it yourself, you saw good flight patterns. That tells me that the dot color was probably correct if that worked with your swing to produce the shots you were looking for.

    WITB:

    Ping G400 LST 10º (Playing 9º) Accra TZ5 65 M4
    Titleist T-MB 2i (17º) Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 95X
    Srixon Z-785 3i/4i Nippon Modus Tour 120X
    Srixon Z-Forged 5i-PW Nippon Modus Tour 120X
    Titleist SM5 50º SM6 54º, 58º Dynamic Gold S200
    Ping Sigma 2 Tyne
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,925 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @greenwavegolfer said:You said it yourself, you saw good flight patterns. That tells me that the dot color was probably correct if that worked with your swing to produce the shots you were looking for.

    Getting a good shot pattern is equal parts "does the club fit" and "how good is the golfer at compensations".

    I'd reckon that someone like Bubba Watson could probably get a good shot pattern from even the most ridiculously misfitted club.

    No matter the level of the golfer, it's probably desirable to fit the clubs to the golfer's most efficient and repeatable swing. Not stop the fitting as soon as he's able to manipulate his way to a few straight shots in a row with a 7-iron.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • greenwavegolfergreenwavegolfer Members Posts: 153 ✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:

    @greenwavegolfer said:You said it yourself, you saw good flight patterns. That tells me that the dot color was probably correct if that worked with your swing to produce the shots you were looking for.

    Getting a good shot pattern is equal parts "does the club fit" and "how good is the golfer at compensations".

    I'd reckon that someone like Bubba Watson could probably get a good shot pattern from even the most ridiculously misfitted club.

    No matter the level of the golfer, it's probably desirable to fit the clubs to the golfer's most efficient and repeatable swing. Not stop the fitting as soon as he's able to manipulate his way to a few straight shots in a row with a 7-iron.

    Sure, but Bubba Watson would absolutely know if he was doing the manipulating and compensating. In fact I would think most golfers would know if they're having to compensate to get something to do what they want it to do or whether they can swing freely and it does what they expect. Sure some players are better than others at compensating but that doesn't mean they'll necessarily accept a bad fit just because they can still get it to do what they want by changing something in their swing.

    WITB:

    Ping G400 LST 10º (Playing 9º) Accra TZ5 65 M4
    Titleist T-MB 2i (17º) Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 95X
    Srixon Z-785 3i/4i Nippon Modus Tour 120X
    Srixon Z-Forged 5i-PW Nippon Modus Tour 120X
    Titleist SM5 50º SM6 54º, 58º Dynamic Gold S200
    Ping Sigma 2 Tyne
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,925 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I got a great deal on a set of Ping G irons. The only issue was they were +1.5 degrees of lie angle when I actually need standard or even slightly flat. I was going to get them bent down two degrees but never got around to it because they seemed to be working fine after I got used to them.

    A year later my swing was all kinds of wonky. I was still hitting lots of high draws (which is a shot I never managed to quite figure out with other clubs) but also hitting a bunch of pulls and pull-hooks along with the occasional bladed short iron. What had happened was I starting coming over the top and coming out of my spine angle at impact and gradually closing down my alignment farther and farther to make those OTT swings start online.

    I never had any inkling that I was compensating. But a couple hundred rounds into using those clubs I was aiming for a 15-yard pull and just dragging those upright clubs across the target line. What I thought was "straight" was a pull. And when the compensations were correct I had no idea where the ball would go.

    The Ping methodology seems to routinely fit people into that two degrees or so upright and I wonder how many of those buyers end up with an aim-right, OTT-pull-left type action. They probably had that kind of swing going into the fitting and the fitted clubs just reinforce it. Maybe that's all for the best if someone's been swinging like that their whole life. For my part, I used to actually come from the inside pretty far and my miss was a push-fade (far more manageable than pull-hooks and duffs).

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USAMembers Posts: 6,529 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 13, 2019 7:03pm #9

    Prior to a year or two ago, a +1" green dot iron would have been only a half degree upright. When adding length, they would flatten the club .75* for each half inch of length added. When subtracting length, the clubs would get more upright.

    1-2 years ago, IIRC, Ping changed that practice. Anything before that, it was rather important to combine length change with the color code when talking about Ping specs.

    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Ping Eye2, ZZ-lite shaft
    3w: Ping Eye2, ZZ-lite shaft
    2h:  TM Stage 2 Tour, Nv105 stiff -or- 1 iron: Maxfli Revolution, DGS400
    2-PW, Golden Ram Tour Grind TW282, Precision 6.5
    SW: Ram Tour Grind Feel Matched 58*, DGS -or- Ram TG-898 56*, DGS
    Putter: Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35"
    Balls: in no particular order... Wilson Staff FG Tour, Duo Urethane/Professional, or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Snell MTB Black... will trot out Maxfli HT-100 or Elite 90 from time to time

    I've proven once again that anything over 44.5" or even 44.25" is a horrible fit for my tee game
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,819 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Lie angle charts are generic and been around long before I took up the game thirty years back. Ping's color chart corresponds with a generic lie angle chart but includes other fitting aspects, such as height, fingertip distance to the floor, hand size, etc.

    People can adjust to a miss-matched lie angle however there's a good chance it will eventually affect proper mechanics. Many years back when lofts were weaker and lie angles much flatter I was able to adapt but eventually had my irons adjusted from standard lie to 2* upright. Long about 2006 computers were influencing golf club design so OEM's took it upon themselves to make off the rack golf clubs more upright. For the first time, I was able to buy a set of irons off the rack and play them without lie adjustments. Back when Titleist introduced 716CB's again I bought them off the rack and didn't need to have them adjusted, just checked.

    Today, all clubs, including off the rack woods come standard with upright lie angles. That doesn't mean the buyer shouldn't have lie angles checked, just means upright adjustments are less likely.

    • Titleist TS2 9.5, PX HZRDUS Red 6.0
    • Titleist 917D2 15*, Diamana Blueboard 83 x5ct,"S"
    • Titleist 716T-MB 17* 2 iron, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • Titleist 716CB 3i-9i, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • Titleist 716CB PW, Steelfiber i110cw "S"
    • SM6 F-52*, Steelfiber i110cw "S"
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • ProV1x





  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,811 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I tend to play my wedges almost 2 degrees flatter than my long irons (from a standard setting between them). I just ended up doing this naturally but it only makes sense when you consider toe drop should be more pronounced the longer the shaft.

    TM M1 2017 10.5 Tensei CK Orange 60x
    TM M1 2016 3W HL Tensei CK White 70x 
    Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
    Callaway Apex 2019 4 - AW KBS Tour 120s (hard stepped 1x)
    Yururi Tataki Wedges 52.5 and 60.5 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0x
    Ping Anser 2 Milled
    NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
    ProV1x
    UA Jordan Spieth 2
    Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)
  • dcfasdcfas Tempus Fugit Members Posts: 916 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just bought a set of i210’s, black dot neutral, standard length. I’ve been flat, 2*, for twenty years. I’ve been doing my own testing both with a lie board and with a line on the ball. It’s an interesting process. I suspect I’ve been cupping my lead arm wrist leading to the need for a flatter lie angle.

  • mogc60mogc60 Members Posts: 975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 13, 2019 11:51pm #13

    I taught golf for almost 20 years and I can tell you with 1000% certainty a club that is 3 degrees too upright helps nobody!! And I witnessed it on way too many occasions. You’re basically shrinking the clubface making it impossible for the club to swing correctly for that player. Misfit clubs are not a swing fix and from what I have seen they make it considerably worse.
    To the OP...Ping typically comes out more upright in their fitting chart from my experience. I normally recommended 1 color code down(flat) from their fitting color.
    I never sugar coated my students. If their lie angles needed adjusting I did it for them as part of the lesson. To me having that correct is very important. Weight is most crucial in my book but lie angle is right behind it. Length works with both of those factors

    CALLAWAY EPIC FLASH SZ 9 EV BLACK 75 6.5 44 1/4”
    CALLAWAY EPIC FLASH SZ 15 MATRIX HD9 STRONG 41.5”
    WILSON FG5 TOUR 17* RIP PHENOM 100 S
    SRIXON Z FORGED 3-PW CATALYST 100 6.5
    CLEVELAND RTX4 50* CATALYST 100 6.0
    CLEVELAND RTX4 54* CATALYST 100 6.0
    CLEVELAND RTX4 58* MODUS 120X
    SEEMORE mFGP20 PLATINUM 38”
    SNELL MTB-X

  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,725 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @NRJyzr said:
    Prior to a year or two ago, a +1" green dot iron would have been only a half degree upright. When adding length, they would flatten the club .75* for each half inch of length added. When subtracting length, the clubs would get more upright.

    1-2 years ago, IIRC, Ping changed that practice. Anything before that, it was rather important to combine length change with the color code when talking about Ping specs.

    Good post and so true. You can't compare the color dots of older overlength Ping irons with that of newer Pings because of this.

    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"

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