Pace of Play..shot clock.

physasstphysasst Rochester, MNMembers Posts: 89 ✭✭✭

This doesn't seem that complicated. To me, you have a timer with every group. You can even have a small portable box that EVERYONE can see with a countdown...similar to a shot clock in basketball, or a play clock in football. As soon as you are at your ball AND it is your turn to play, the clock starts. Same with the greens, as soon as it is your turn, IE; the other player holed out, or puts down his marker, the 40 seconds starts.
Penalties per round:
1. First violation-warning
2. Second and third violations- 1 stroke penalty
3. Third and/or more violations- 2 stroke penalties
Exceptions:
1. Ruling or review requiring rules official. ONLY ALLOWED TWICE per round. The clock starts the second that the rules official makes a decision.
2. Illness/injury requiring intervention.
This negates anything arbitrary or nebulous. There is a shot clock EVERYONE can see. It can be on the TV broadcast and might even bring some excitement. The penalties are known and published. It's not decided later in some back room. The players all know where they stand, and having a clock, can actually start thinking about their shot as they know for sure they will hitting at x time.
I don't know...maybe that's crazy...

Ping G400 SFT 9.5*
Ping G410 SFT 3W 15*
Taylormade M3 Hybrid 19*
Taylormade P-790 4-GW
Cleveland CG15 54* SW
Cleveland CG15 58* LW
Cleveland 2135 8.0 CB 
«1

Comments

  • Argonne69Argonne69 Members Posts: 21,932 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 14, 2019 2:26pm #2

    There are 36 groups out at the course morning and afternoon. You'd need a minimum of 72 officials to handle the job unless they're all willing to walk two rounds a day on Thursday and Friday. I don't think it can be done from a simple logistical standpoint. The walking scorer is a volunteer, and not a training rules official. If you're going to be assessing penalties, you have to have trained officials. I spoke with an LPGA rules official a few weeks ago about the idea, and she said having a timing official with each group was simply unworkable.

    Personally, I think they should use the same model that they use in poker. Any player can call the clock on another player. The player calling the clock would note the time on his scorecard, and the time the other player hit the shot. The information would be reviewed in the scoring trailer with the officials. Since golf is self policing, the player calling the clock would basically serve as the timing official.

  • c7015c7015 Members Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 14, 2019 3:04pm #3

    we don't need a shot clock,

    Honestly, my theory (read guess) on slow play is this.

    I would bet that slow play crops up on driveable par 4's and reachable par 5's where guys are going for the green. The same thing happens during tournaments at any club I have been to. The difference on the PGA is that the guys are so long they are almost always going for the green, and have to wait for it to clear leading to the pile-up.

    I think instead of a shot clock make it an open hole penalty .... you get warned when you fall 1/2 a hole behind and if it gets to a full hole or more behind you get a penalty. (barring rules and other outlier situations)

    TS3 Smoke 70g (S Flex)
    913 FD 3 wood Whiteboard (X Flex)
    915 F 5 wood Blueboard (S Flex)
    712U 4 Iron
    715CB 5-6
    718MB 7-PW 
    Vokey SM7 50, 55, 60 
    SC Newport 2.5
  • BrianMcGBrianMcG Members Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    They already keep track of this with the shot trackers. They can just post the info and hand out strokes or fines at the end of the round.

    Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
    Bobby: I play because I love it.
    Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.
  • johnsegjohnseg Members Posts: 333 ✭✭✭✭

    @BrianMcG said:
    They already keep track of this with the shot trackers. They can just post the info and hand out strokes or fines at the end of the round.

    I don't like the penalty after the fact method. If a player is assessed a penalty they should know at the time it is assessed.

  • bigred90gtbigred90gt Lefty Boomers Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnseg said:

    @BrianMcG said:
    They already keep track of this with the shot trackers. They can just post the info and hand out strokes or fines at the end of the round.

    I don't like the penalty after the fact method. If a player is assessed a penalty they should know at the time it is assessed.

    So who ever is monitoring it in the booth can radio the rules official and send them out on the spot to hand out the strokes.

  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 5,093 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 14, 2019 3:46pm #7

    What is fast play? What is slow play? Do they have to play just as fast when it's raining as when it's sunny? Who sets the bar on fast and slow?
    There will never be a timer with a group. Silly.

    At times slow play is part of the professional game, get over it.
    Not all players are "tagged" as slow.

    OP,
    Didn't you recently get a hole-in-one? Man, that really went to your head.
    Now you want put people on the clock? :o

  • Argonne69Argonne69 Members Posts: 21,932 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Two minutes to hit a putt is slow. Period.

  • physasstphysasst Rochester, MNMembers Posts: 89 ✭✭✭

    @Ferguson said:
    What is fast play? What is slow play? Do they have to play just as fast when it's raining as when it's sunny? Who sets the bar on fast and slow?
    There will never be a timer with a group. Silly.

    At times slow play is part of the professional game, get over it.
    Not all players are "tagged" as slow.

    OP,
    Didn't you recently get a hole-in-one? Man, that really went to your head.
    Now you want put people on the clock? :o

    Not at all. My point is. If you are going to have a 40 second shot rule, then you have to somehow enforce it....otherwise, simply don't have the rule...Having the rule, and then not enforcing it seems incredibly ridiculous to me, and has for some time. ;)

    Ping G400 SFT 9.5*
    Ping G410 SFT 3W 15*
    Taylormade M3 Hybrid 19*
    Taylormade P-790 4-GW
    Cleveland CG15 54* SW
    Cleveland CG15 58* LW
    Cleveland 2135 8.0 CB 
  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,804 ClubWRX

    Forget the shot clock and just put a sniper in a centralized tower.

  • Under2hoursUnder2hours Members Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Seems pretty easy to implement.....
    http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2018/tournamentid=2018048/news/newsid=349496.html
    I am tired of excuses about slow play. Adapt or else. This Slugger comment about livelihood makes no sense as who is defending Brooks or Rory or other fast golfers being negatively affected by a slow player. I have ADHD (self-diagnosed). Slow play definitely affects my game and if i had to play as per the rules (i.e. in turn) I'd be probably way more affected then the slow player player who is being told to play "by the rules".......

  • gators78gators78 ClubWRX Posts: 3,952 ClubWRX

    Time Par, pretty simple. Allows for more consideration on key shots, but you better make it up somewhere else.

    In each tournament round they establish a time each group has to go around the course, and it applies to the whole field. This could be adjusted each day, or depending if it's twosomes or threesomes, etc. Groups are then timed every 3 or 4 holes. For example, the tournament committee determines at their event 4 hour rounds for twosomes are appropriate, the pairing has roughly 40 minutes to play 3 holes. If it takes you 45 minutes for the first three, the group is now in a warning and needs to pick up the pace, if you get to hole 7 and you're still behind time, now they start timing each player. Anyone that starts going over 40 seconds gets penalized.

    For those that have played, this is basically what the AJGA does with timed pars for each group. If the juniors can handle it, pretty sure the PGA Tour can as well.
    https://www.ajga.org/player-policies/pace-of-play

    G400 Max
    M2 3W, Hybrid
    Arias
    SM7s
    Sigma 2, Tyne 4
  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 5,093 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:
    Forget the shot clock and just put a sniper in a centralized tower.

    Claudine Longet is looking for work.

  • KRAMER1997KRAMER1997 Members Posts: 205 ✭✭✭

    Players like Brooks should be able to play through if they are behind Bryson and JB Holmes.

  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,804 ClubWRX

    @Ferguson said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    Forget the shot clock and just put a sniper in a centralized tower.

    Claudine Longet is looking for work.

    Nothing is better than a smiling assassin.

  • Argonne69Argonne69 Members Posts: 21,932 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 14, 2019 6:07pm #16

    Doesn't the problem really start with the first group(s) out in the morning? If the tour allows the group(s) to play at a 5 hours pace, there's never going to be a penalty assessed to the groups keeping up with them. The standard answer always seems to be that a group was never put on the clock, given that they never had an open hole in front of them, so no penalty was possible. I agree. However, clearly the first group was playing at a pace that the tour deemed acceptable.

    As many have pointed out, the tour doesn't really give a rats a-- if there's a five hour pace.

  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 5,093 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Argonne69 said:
    Doesn't the problem really start with the first group(s) out in the morning? If the tour allows the group(s) to play at a 5 hours pace, there's never going to be a penalty assessed to the groups keeping up with them. The standard answer always seems to be that a group was never put on the clock, given that they never had an open hole in front of them, so no penalty was possible. I agree. However, clearly the first group was playing at a pace that the tour deemed acceptable.

    As many have pointed out, the tour doesn't really give a rats a-- if there's a five hour pace.

    The same phenomena exist in hair salons, doctors’ offices and the cutting table at Jo-Ann Fabrics. The first appointment runs late, and then everyone that follows is delayed at least 15-20 minutes.

  • shanxshanx Members Posts: 839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Argonne69 said:

    As many have pointed out, the tour doesn't really give a rats a-- if there's a five hour pace.

    And that's the rub.

    I said this on one of the hundred other "slow play" threads here. Who does slow play impact? Why do we care how long it takes the pros to play? These guys play a different game than us, they play for a ton of money, they need to be more concerned with things that we never consider. So why do we complain about their pace of play?

    Ever watch the final minutes of a basketball game? Ever see a QB back off and call a timeout or audible at a crucial point in the game? Ever see a baseball manager replace three pitchers in one inning?

    Time should be considered only for us hacks, these guys need more time to play with the precision needed to score on their level.....

  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 14, 2019 6:40pm #19

    You are limited by timeouts in the NFL and NBA. You actually get penalized if you abuse those systems. If you let the play clock dwindle down you get a flag. If you use a timeout you don't have you get a technical foul.

    The players playing those sports don't get extra time because they are professional. The rules are not different for them. All the teams in all the other sports are held mostly accountable for delays, slow play and carelessness.

    There is no repercussion in golf though. Bad analogy.

  • mankumanku Members Posts: 779 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To paraphrase Justice Stewart, I know slow play when I see it.
    And I think every golfer on this board does as well.
    Not sure how that can get applied to a tournament though!

  • aliikanealiikane Members Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    PGA and all the rest of the tours should just allow laser rangefinders to get distances. That would speed up play a lot.

  • zonadubzonadub Members Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭

    @aliikane said:
    PGA and all the rest of the tours should just allow laser rangefinders to get distances. That would speed up play a lot.

    Doubt that having a laser rangefinder would have sped J.B. Holmes up on the first tee on Sunday at The Open. Why did he just stand there when it was his turn? Pretty sure he knew the length of the hole. It’s just how they play.

    If tv was not on them while they are standing around making decisions, we (the viewers) would never know until the final group is on the last hole. Plus, if they switch to those slow players on a delayed basis, the entire pre-shot routine could be avoided.

    It is totally unfair for the faster players... DeChambeau’s fellow competitors were iced during that 2 1/2 minute run up to the missed 8 footer. You can see it in their body language. That is the real problem.

    How to play golf.
    Hit the ball.
    Find the ball
    Repeat until the ball is in the hole.
    Have fun.
    ...Chuck Hogan
  • PotatoheadPotatohead Members Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Chess clock. Everyone gets an hour and a pair of two minute time outs.

  • Dave230Dave230 Members Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ferguson said:
    What is fast play? What is slow play? Do they have to play just as fast when it's raining as when it's sunny? Who sets the bar on fast and slow?
    There will never be a timer with a group. Silly.

    At times slow play is part of the professional game, get over it.
    Not all players are "tagged" as slow.

    OP,
    Didn't you recently get a hole-in-one? Man, that really went to your head.
    Now you want put people on the clock? :o

    It's a skill to play a game within the required time, especially when the required time is perfectly reasonable. If there was no clock, no rules and no social pressure whatsoever, some players might shoot a few shots better if they took 7 hours to play rounds by walking everything out and seeing every possible angle of every shot but that doesn't mean they should do it because there would be no fans and nobody would bother playing the game. Rules are there to be implemented, you're slow and you lose a shot, well you should have played within the time. Can't play within the time? You can't make accurate decisions sharp enough, either learn to or fall.

  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,829 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Under2hours said:
    Seems pretty easy to implement.....
    http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2018/tournamentid=2018048/news/newsid=349496.html
    I am tired of excuses about slow play. Adapt or else. This Slugger comment about livelihood makes no sense as who is defending Brooks or Rory or other fast golfers being negatively affected by a slow player. I have ADHD (self-diagnosed). Slow play definitely affects my game and if i had to play as per the rules (i.e. in turn) I'd be probably way more affected then the slow player player who is being told to play "by the rules".......

    And if it was such a great system the Euro tour would use it every week. And they do not. They have tried all sorts of formats lately in an attempt to stay relevant.

    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,829 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @aliikane said:
    PGA and all the rest of the tours should just allow laser rangefinders to get distances. That would speed up play a lot.

    How so? The professional player still needs numbers to the front/back/bunker carry/ backstop undulation.....etc. Cannot shoot most of those.

    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • exgolfproexgolfpro Members Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 14, 2019 9:18pm #27

    A few things not talked about....after DeChambeau took 2 minutes to putt on Thursday, they walked to the next tee and had to wait on the group in front of them before they could tee off. (according to John Maginnes who was doing play by play for PGATourLIve). The other issue is the PGA Tour won't let the early groups play in under 5 hours, heres why.....On Thursday/Friday, the players tee off in a morning wave and an afternoon wave off of #1 and #10. Those waves run for 2 hours. So, if you tee off of #1 at 7am, it does you no good to get to #10 tee before 9am because the back end of the wave is still teeing off. So, they usually make the turn in 2 hours 15 minutes. As we all know usually each group gets a little slower, so most rounds end up at just under 5 hours.

  • MidwestGolfBumMidwestGolfBum Corporate Golfer Extraordinaire MSN/MKE/DSMMembers Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @exgolfpro said:
    A few things not talked about....after DeChambeau took 2 minutes to putt on Thursday, they walked to the next tee and had to wait on the group in front of them before they could tee off. (according to John Maginnes who was doing play by play for PGATourLIve). The other issue is the PGA Tour won't let the early groups play in under 5 hours, heres why.....On Thursday/Friday, the players tee off in a morning wave and an afternoon wave off of #1 and #10. Those waves run for 2 hours. So, if you tee off of #1 at 7am, it does you no good to get to #10 tee before 9am because the back end of the wave is still teeing off. So, they usually make the turn in 2 hours 15 minutes. As we all know usually each group gets a little slower, so most rounds end up at just under 5 hours.

    To reinforce that point, doing a quick Google, I found the USGA numbers for the 12-14 US Opens, the first and second rounds averaged just over 5 hours (2012 - 5:16, 2013 - 5:10, 2014 - 5:02) and the third round was much less, aside from Merion in '13, which actually got longer at 5:18 (2012 - 4:04 and 2014 - 4:01), with the 4th round of all of them being closer to 4 hours (2012 - 4:03, 2013 - 3:58, 2014 - 4:00). Less guys means less waiting around. Playing in 2 somes helps a lot, as well.

    Titleist TS3 9.5* Mitsubishi Tensei White 70TX
    Titleist 917F3 15* Graphite Design AD-DI 7X black
    Titleist T-MB 2i Graphite Design AD-95X Utility/Driving iron
    Titleist 714 MB 4-9 True Temper TI X100 or Cally RazrX MB 4-9 True Temper TI X100
    Vokey SM7, 52.08, 56.10, 60.08 True Temper TI S400
    Byron DH89 or Piretti Proto

    The bag is always a work in progress.
  • aliikanealiikane Members Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Shilgy said:

    @aliikane said:
    PGA and all the rest of the tours should just allow laser rangefinders to get distances. That would speed up play a lot.

    How so? The professional player still needs numbers to the front/back/bunker carry/ backstop undulation.....etc. Cannot shoot most of those.

    Players and caddies get detailed dimensions and maps of green complexes in practice rounds as well as distances of different features around the course. Also each day, they get flag placements with dimensions. Once you have the flag yardage, you can easily get the yardage to front/back of greens, bunkers, undulations, green fall off areas, etc. In addition, having to pace off shots for out of play areas or shorter yardages (inside 100) when generally there are are no markers, takes a long time. It would would speed up play for every shot to greens.

  • aliikanealiikane Members Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @zonadub said:

    @aliikane said:
    PGA and all the rest of the tours should just allow laser rangefinders to get distances. That would speed up play a lot.

    Doubt that having a laser rangefinder would have sped J.B. Holmes up on the first tee on Sunday at The Open. Why did he just stand there when it was his turn? Pretty sure he knew the length of the hole. It’s just how they play.

    If tv was not on them while they are standing around making decisions, we (the viewers) would never know until the final group is on the last hole. Plus, if they switch to those slow players on a delayed basis, the entire pre-shot routine could be avoided.

    It is totally unfair for the faster players... DeChambeau’s fellow competitors were iced during that 2 1/2 minute run up to the missed 8 footer. You can see it in their body language. That is the real problem.

    True, but for the majority of shots to the greens laser rangefinders will speed up play. Not having to pace off shots saves time. Easy calculations to features when you have specific yardages to flags or features. In those JB Holmes, or DeChambeau instances, it is easy for course officials following the groups to see that and warn the player.

  • llewol007llewol007 4KidsGolfer ClubWRX Posts: 3,388 ClubWRX

    Set the rules and follow them. Simple enough. If it is bothering a growing number of your cohorts on the tour, I would imagine something needs to click in your head that it is a problem. If De Chambeau or Jb Holmes cant figure out that they are slow, then then obviously put a **** time keeper on them or let the other players in their group call for a time keeper and do it that way.

    Cobra F8 9* Aldila Rogue 60 3.0 X Stiff
    Cobra LTD 14.5 Degree Aldila Rogue 70 3.3 X Stiff
    Cobra LTD 17.5 Degree Aldila Rogue 70 3.6 X Stiff
    Cobra Utility 20.5 DG AMT S300 Black HHx1
    Cobra MB/CB 4-PW DG AMT S300 Black HHx1
    Cobra Pur 52/58 S200 
    Odyssey Grim Reaper 
    Vice Pro+/Snell Mtbx

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file