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A ruling clarification is needed.

VesparVespar on the teeMembers Posts: 158 ✭✭✭

1st what would you do? and what would be the ruling.

Scenario: club championship, must play the ball down and ball must be holed, no gimmys. These 2 rules were specifically outlined in bold writing and instructed on the first tee for each days play. Everything is on the up and up for this tourney, we each have each others score cards to record scores.

Foursome in the group all close friends: Player A putts the ball from 20 feet but it comes up short for what appears to be 3-5 inch tap in for a Bogie 5.

Instead he pulls the ball back from the hole like its a gimmy 2 feet with the back side of his putter ( you know the move .
When players B, C, and D gasp and say whoa, player A then reverses the motion & pushes the ball while the ball was moving in attempt to put it back. He knows he did something wrong and prcedes to flip the ball up and put it in his pocket.

Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5.

Through out the round we struggled with this, he didn't hole out number 1 and number 2 those so called strokes pulls and pushes were illegal. and one of the strokes **** were with moving ball. it had not come to rest.

Player A was in a different cart and was very much in contention to win our flight, as friends we agonized over this throughout the round, we wish to keep the spirit of the tourney in place. We finally decided to not sign the card and privately bring it to the tournament head pro for a ruling. Ahead of final count and card signing by our group. The head pro questioned if he holed out? no Did he tee off on the next hole? Yes Did he make any attempt to request rules clarification? No....He promptly Disqualified him without batting an eye. Player A would have won the flight with anything 8 or less on that hole. Player C eventually won gross and was prepared to protest any score and lack or holing out

Player A is a good friend, you will be playing with him a lot. Would you do anything different?

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Comments

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    You should of made him replace the ball and hole out and reminded him he was DQ if he doesn't.

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  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Go pat your head pro on the back.

    What A did was entirely reflexive. We've all seen it time and time again. Players roll 'em and scrape away gimmes for 364 days a year. Then, when faced with tournament golf, they bear down for about a hole and a half and then the crappy old habits creep back in.

    Your friend will understand. Better luck next year.

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  • Bushwood Country ClubBushwood Country Club Bushwood Country Club Members Posts: 852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would not do anything different - you guys did the only thing you could have possibly done. He broke multiple rules. His asking "what did you give me" is kind of shady... as is the fact that he didn't try to replace his ball and hole it out. Major props to your Head Pro, who did his job.

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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,589 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with the rest, the pro did exactly the right thing. The one thing you guys COULD have done is to check the rules on the course, before he teed off on the next hole. If you had, you might have had him do the right thing, replace his ball and hole out. You can figure out the appropriate penalty later. I suggest you all DL the rules onto your phones, so you have a chance to do that the next time something odd happens.

  • slocagolferslocagolfer Members Posts: 505 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The pro did the right thing and you did the right thing by bringing it up to the pro. I hope player A isn't a powerful member of the club and would take the ruling out on the pro.

    As an aside, I read, either on this board or somewhere else, where a rules official would tell a player, "The rules say..." That way it isn't just a person (your group in this case) but the rules that determine what happens.

  • AugsterAugster Members Posts: 4,397 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    In the future, tell him to replace the ball and hole out. Not holing out in stroke play, and not correcting it, is a DQ in nearly all instances.

    On the first tee, let everyone know the ball is played to the bottom of the cup.

    I guess I don’t get why he didn’t hole out. It’s stroke play, he’s got to hole it. Just weird to pick it up, get it called out, and then pocket it.

    Good on your pro for having the backbone to make the correct, and only, call he could make.

  • VesparVespar on the teeMembers Posts: 158 ✭✭✭

    @Augster said:
    In the future, tell him to replace the ball and hole out. Not holing out in stroke play, and not correcting it, is a DQ in nearly all instances.

    On the first tee, let everyone know the ball is played to the bottom of the cup.

    I guess I don’t get why he didn’t hole out. It’s stroke play, he’s got to hole it. Just weird to pick it up, get it called out, and then pocket it.

    Good on your pro for having the backbone to make the correct, and only, call he could make.

    On the first tee of each day a rules sheet is handed out to each of us, you are verbally reminded to putt out everything and to play the ball down everywhere ( except the green).

    It happened so quick and such a shock, jaws were dropped..we were basically picking up putter head covers, wedges and heading off the green when it happened. But he didn't tap it in, I was holding the flag.

  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bushwood Country Club said:
    I would not do anything different - you guys did the only thing you could have possibly done. He broke multiple rules. His asking "what did you give me" is kind of shady... as is the fact that he didn't try to replace his ball and hole it out. Major props to your Head Pro, who did his job.

    I would have told the guy to go back and finish the hole instead of giving him a score for that hole. So I would certainly do something different.

  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,321 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Like others, I would have suggested to him to replace the ball and hole out.

    Hopefully lots of people read this thread, as this a very common mistake players make in stroke play events. It is easily corrected (with penalty) if you know what to do. If not corrected it is a DQ as your pro rightfully did.

  • VesparVespar on the teeMembers Posts: 158 ✭✭✭

    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

    The ramifications of "letting it go" changes the dynamic and pay out of those in contention both on the gross and net side of the club championship....as well as the potential embarrassment of being DQd in front of an audience of his peers in the club house. I brought up our concern of unable to sign a score card accurately & privately with pro in a side room. Prior to the brief meeting I was not 100% certain is was DQ or if the pro would make an exception. It is what it is, the right decision according to the rules of holing out and attesting to the true score on the card- don't take it lightly.

  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,589 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

    He was 100% in the wrong, and doesn't want to accept it. In effect, he would have preferred for you to let him cheat his way into the money. If he had followed written and verbal instructions, he'd have been fine. If he had known the rules, he could have gone back and putted out instead of moving on and getting the DQ. The only way you could have done anything different was to tell him that at the time, but its really HIS job to follow the rules.
    I'd be interested in seeing him and Player C have a discussion over what the "right" thing to do would have been. After all, A wants to take money from C's pocket by cheating.

  • VesparVespar on the teeMembers Posts: 158 ✭✭✭

    @davep043 said:

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

    He was 100% in the wrong, and doesn't want to accept it. In effect, he would have preferred for you to let him cheat his way into the money. If he had followed written and verbal instructions, he'd have been fine. If he had known the rules, he could have gone back and putted out instead of moving on and getting the DQ. The only way you could have done anything different was to tell him that at the time, but its really HIS job to follow the rules.
    I'd be interested in seeing him and Player C have a discussion over what the "right" thing to do would have been. After all, A wants to take money from C's pocket by cheating.

    Yep, I agree. Thank you

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

    The ramifications of "letting it go" changes the dynamic and pay out of those in contention both on the gross and net side of the club championship....as well as the potential embarrassment of being DQd in front of an audience of his peers in the club house. I brought up our concern of unable to sign a score card accurately & privately with pro in a side room. Prior to the brief meeting I was not 100% certain is was DQ or if the pro would make an exception. It is what it is, the right decision according to the rules of holing out and attesting to the true score on the card- don't take it lightly.

    The guy knew he was in the wrong as soon as he attempted to to replace the ball. He doubled down in stupid when he pocketed the ball. In short from one of my favorite books ..

    Wedge: "You knew, when I said we needed four sets of women's clothing, that we were going to end up in them. You knew. So any hopes you had to the contrary were just self-delusion."
    Hobbie: "I understand that. But I'd rather blame you than me."

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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers Posts: 12,575 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Some people can never blame themselves. Pathetic
    He was 100% wrong, he owes you a strong apology ASAP
    I've actually had an opponent do this on the first hole of a provincial amateur qualifier. What we did was call a rules official who told him what to do before we teed off on #2. To be fair, I know the rules way better than most

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  • HatsForBatsHatsForBats Members Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a bit of sticky wicket isn't it? My question is how to handle it now that you can't go back and change it?

  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,928 ClubWRX

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

    The ramifications of "letting it go" changes the dynamic and pay out of those in contention both on the gross and net side of the club championship....as well as the potential embarrassment of being DQd in front of an audience of his peers in the club house. I brought up our concern of unable to sign a score card accurately & privately with pro in a side room. Prior to the brief meeting I was not 100% certain is was DQ or if the pro would make an exception. It is what it is, the right decision according to the rules of holing out and attesting to the true score on the card- don't take it lightly.

    Part of your responsibility is to protect the field and you did that admirably.

    I've played in a couple of events in our city where a guy in our group clearly violated the rules multiple times. He was in contention for the overall championship and I had his card. I wouldn't sign his card because he flat out cheated and reported wrong scored. I went to the TD after the round and he laughed at me. Seriously. The TD and the player were friends and he said his friend would never cheat. I asked him to talk to the other 2 guys in the group and he said he wouldn't because his friend would never cheat like that.

  • QEightQEight FinlandMembers Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

    I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @QEight said:

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

    I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

    I guess what eats him the most (apart from being stupid...) is that he was not told how he should have proceeded but he was let to believe there was nothing more to it. The next thing he knows he was DQ'd and felt like he had been stabbed in the back. I sure can understand that. Indeed it was his own fault totally but the way the three others acted was not what I would call fair. After all, at least the OP knew exactly that one needs to hole out but he did not stand up.

    Not a very pleasant case, IMO.

  • QEightQEight FinlandMembers Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Not the best possible ending at all, but seems like the whole group were out of rules knowledge. I wonder why in this type of situation it is difficult to stop and really think the situation through? If there is a group following then let them play through, and perhaps even ask if one of them knows how to proceed. Also the rules app on phone is quite a quick way to find out how to proceed, if the book is non-existent.

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 20, 2019 6:49pm #22

    @QEight said:
    Not the best possible ending at all, but seems like the whole group were out of rules knowledge. I wonder why in this type of situation it is difficult to stop and really think the situation through? If there is a group following then let them play through, and perhaps even ask if one of them knows how to proceed. Also the rules app on phone is quite a quick way to find out how to proceed, if the book is non-existent.

    They were specifically told that no gimmies are allowed and that on every hole one must hole out. How much rules knowledge one needs to understand that?

    A simple phone call to the pro would have sufficed. I guess they all froze but still...

  • QEightQEight FinlandMembers Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mr. Bean said:
    They were specifically told that no gimmies are allowed and that on every hole one must hole out. How much rules knowledge one needs to understand that?

    A simple phone call to the pro would have sufficed. I guess they all froze but still...

    I guess how to proceed after noticing the error was the issue. And yes, a call to the pro would have sorted it out.

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 20, 2019 7:06pm #24

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @QEight said:

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

    I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

    I guess what eats him the most (apart from being stupid...) is that he was not told how he should have proceeded but he was let to believe there was nothing more to it. The next thing he knows he was DQ'd and felt like he had been stabbed in the back. I sure can understand that. Indeed it was his own fault totally but the way the three others acted was not what I would call fair. After all, at least the OP knew exactly that one needs to hole out but he did not stand up.

    Not a very pleasant case, IMO.

    I am honestly a bit taken back that you are actually passing blame to the OP or the other partners in the group. Player A indeed knew he screwed up, essentially admitted it, and then went to ask the other players what they were going to score him in hopes they would let it slide. He knew he made an error and hoped to get away vs taking his penalty and holing out. When he pulled the ball back, the OP states they all said whoa whoa whoa, essentially telling him to hole it out, and he then chose not to.

  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Krt22 said:

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @QEight said:

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

    I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

    I guess what eats him the most (apart from being stupid...) is that he was not told how he should have proceeded but he was let to believe there was nothing more to it. The next thing he knows he was DQ'd and felt like he had been stabbed in the back. I sure can understand that. Indeed it was his own fault totally but the way the three others acted was not what I would call fair. After all, at least the OP knew exactly that one needs to hole out but he did not stand up.

    Not a very pleasant case, IMO.

    I am honestly a bit taken back that you are actually passing blame to the OP or the other partners in the group. Player A indeed knew he screwed up, essentially admitted it, and then went to ask the other players what they were going to score him in hopes they would let it slide. He knew he made an error and hoped to get away vs taking his penalty and holing out. When he pulled the ball back, the OP states they all said whoa whoa whoa, essentially telling him to hole it out, and he then choose not to.

    Unless 'whoa, whoa, whoa' is some local language meaning 'you need to replace your ball and hole out' I believe there was nothing in the original post saying that the three other players had in any way indicated the fourth player what he must do. Not to say that they did not do that either once he asked what is his score on the 1st hole.

    I am simply implying that those three should have done something more than 'whoa, whoa, whoa'.

  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @Krt22 said:

    @Mr. Bean said:

    @QEight said:

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

    I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

    I guess what eats him the most (apart from being stupid...) is that he was not told how he should have proceeded but he was let to believe there was nothing more to it. The next thing he knows he was DQ'd and felt like he had been stabbed in the back. I sure can understand that. Indeed it was his own fault totally but the way the three others acted was not what I would call fair. After all, at least the OP knew exactly that one needs to hole out but he did not stand up.

    Not a very pleasant case, IMO.

    I am honestly a bit taken back that you are actually passing blame to the OP or the other partners in the group. Player A indeed knew he screwed up, essentially admitted it, and then went to ask the other players what they were going to score him in hopes they would let it slide. He knew he made an error and hoped to get away vs taking his penalty and holing out. When he pulled the ball back, the OP states they all said whoa whoa whoa, essentially telling him to hole it out, and he then choose not to.

    Unless 'whoa, whoa, whoa' is some local language meaning 'you need to replace your ball and hole out' I believe there was nothing in the original post saying that the three other players had in any way indicated the fourth player what he must do. Not to say that they did not do that either once he asked what is his score on the 1st hole.

    I am simply implying that those three should have done something more than 'whoa, whoa, whoa'.

    Astonishing

  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

    The ramifications of "letting it go" changes the dynamic and pay out of those in contention both on the gross and net side of the club championship....as well as the potential embarrassment of being DQd in front of an audience of his peers in the club house. I brought up our concern of unable to sign a score card accurately & privately with pro in a side room. Prior to the brief meeting I was not 100% certain is was DQ or if the pro would make an exception. It is what it is, the right decision according to the rules of holing out and attesting to the true score on the card- don't take it lightly.

    Sadly there are lot's of folks in this world that know absolutely zero about personal responsibility. You should ask him what he should have been scored had corrected his error and holed out. Let's assume his brush back counted as proper stroke, he still hit a ball in motion, picked his ball up without marking it, and then the stroke to finally hole it. I'd say that is a 9, thus he would have been out of first anyway

  • DpavsDpavs OverWRX'ed Members Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....
    "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

    The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out.

  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Dpavs said:
    I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....
    "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

    The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out.

    Exactly.

  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,559 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 20, 2019 8:19pm #30

    @Krt22 said:

    @Vespar said:
    Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

    The ramifications of "letting it go" changes the dynamic and pay out of those in contention both on the gross and net side of the club championship....as well as the potential embarrassment of being DQd in front of an audience of his peers in the club house. I brought up our concern of unable to sign a score card accurately & privately with pro in a side room. Prior to the brief meeting I was not 100% certain is was DQ or if the pro would make an exception. It is what it is, the right decision according to the rules of holing out and attesting to the true score on the card- don't take it lightly.

    Sadly there are lot's of folks in this world that know absolutely zero about personal responsibility. You should ask him what he should have been scored had corrected his error and holed out. Let's assume his brush back counted as proper stroke, he still hit a ball in motion, picked his ball up without marking it, and then the stroke to finally hole it. I'd say that is a 9, thus he would have been out of first anyway

    None of those actions would have counted as strokes. Replace the ball, putt out, and add one penalty stroke. Rule 9.4.

  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    No player's (or referee's, for that matter) mind is ever as clear as after the round.

    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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